Dear Rob, You over simplify and this undermines your argument. You should know by now: NSA and GCHQ = intelligence services = spooks 007 = vague (no?) legal framework. LEA = law enforcement = police = prosecutor = inspector Cluzo = pretty strict legal framework including criminal procedure and data protection rules. If you mess up your case is screwed. Best Greg ________________________________ From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Rob Golding Sent: 04 August 2016 21:20:18 To: gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] @EXT: RE: Use cases: Fundamental, Incidental, and Theoretical

note that: Any customer of an RIR has its contact data published in RIR WHOIS

Which is of course no different to saying "Any customer of a Registry (aka Registrar) has it's contact data published" And in practice it's _most_ customers of _most_ RIRs - lots of the lookups for certain regions just-don’t-work (tm) and with the amount of 'funkiness' that goes on with IPv4 routing post-runout, what details you see on an IP lookup at an RIR has little-to-no bearing now on who is actually using it - what you're able to see is "who should be (directly or indirectly) paying the RIRs fees"

Yet IP Whois will usually only yield the webhost or the IS. How is having to ask them for the data any different from having to ask the registrar.

I would say it's not any different at all in effect, but may be less likely to yield a response due to the limited "policy" capabilities when it comes to "unregulated" industries.

Are LEAs lobbying for webhost and internet subscriber public whois?

I feel I should suggest that they can probably just extract the data from the NSA or GCHQ or their-local-equivalent, so no need to make it "public" ;)

I will be interested in learning however law enforcement manages to do its job without this needed and useful data

The caveats being that "useful" is subjective and "needed" depends on circumstances. I don't see anyone suggesting that there shouldn’t be methods in place so that Law Enforcement can do their job. I do however think that the concept of punishing everyone because there are a very small %age of "bad actors" is, in a civilised society, not even remotely appropriate. Rob --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg ******************* DISCLAIMER : This message is sent in confidence and is only intended for the named recipient. If you receive this message by mistake, you may not use, copy, distribute or forward this message, or any part of its contents or rely upon the information contained in it. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail and delete the relevant e-mails from any computer. This message does not constitute a commitment by Europol unless otherwise indicated. *******************