Not responding to Sivasubramanian M in particular but rather the whole thread. The distinction between commercial activity and non-commercial activity is irrelevant to the issue of crime and abuse. The distinction between legal and natural persons is almost as irrelevant. Whatever openings are given to criminals and abusers they will take advantage of and leverage. This whole approach sets the stage for severely suboptimal outcomes.I am really starting to believe that participating in this group is a waste of time. To the extent that registries and registrars are not required to do anything in addressing the criminal and abuse issues, there will be those that choose to make the business decision not to put resources or at most minimal resources against those issues. To the extent that ICANN and this working group (among others) choose not to address the above, the organization and the participants are complicit in enabling internet scale abuse and crime. If you think that law enforcement alone is in a position to address crime and abuse in a meaningful manner and scale, think again. Governments will need to open their checkbooks much wider than they have been. There is a simple solution. Just as in the financial world there is a "know your customer" requirement, Registrars should be required to meet similar standards and officers and management of Registrars should be held personally and strictly liable for failure to do so. One would expect a higher level of effort under such circumstances. Some might argue that this disrupts the business model(s) of various Registrars. Too bad. If a business model externalizes the costs of failure to address criminal abuse of domain registrations then it probably isn't a business model that is good for any society. Michael Hammer On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 9:10 PM, Sivasubramanian M <6.Internet@gmail.com> wrote:

DNS is global. We respect national laws but as in trade marks, we could follow a common minimum set of parameters on what constitutes commercial activity for DNS. For example, (this also answers one part of Steve Crocker's question somewhat), without going into content, it is perfectly alright for a Registry (through it's Registrars and Resellers) to ask a prospective Registrant to ask if the domain name is intended for personal use or for commercial purposes. If for commercial purposes, the form proceeds to ask for tax registration numbers (or merely ask if the prospective Registrant complies with commercial tax regulations) and asks if the business would use a payment gateway or would carry out monetary transactions in any form. These questions about tax registrations / payment gateways could be asked either before the prospective Registrant classifies himself or after. Either way we don't go into content at this stage. Also, by this method, if as per global DNS policy, a Mr.Joseph from Germany registers a personal domain, sets up a WordPress blog and earns a small sum by AdWords, DNS compliance wouldn't bother him, and the answer from ICANN to Germany would be that as per the common minimum set of global DNS parameters, as far as ICANN is concerned, Mr.Joseph's domain name is personal.

Sivasubramanian M

On Sun, Mar 11, 2018, 5:47 PM Volker Greimann - Key-Systems GmbHz < vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:

...

Very true. German courts have held otherwise private websites using Adsense advertizing as being commercially used.

So there would be large differences.

Sent from my iPad

On 11. Mar 2018, at 17:39, David Cake <dave@davecake.net> wrote:

Yes. What counts as commercial use varies by jurisdiction. It we try to force groups into a commercial category based on some single metric (such as “accepts payments” ), then many will be miscategorised.

I agree very much with Greg that this is a yawning rabbit hole of dubious value. It has yet to be demonstrated that it has any relevance to our discussions.

David

On 12 Mar 2018, at 4:00 am, theo geurts <gtheo@xs4all.nl> wrote:

Thanks John,

I would turn that around, If regional or national laws already fix those issues, then we should not come up with a solution that will never work one a global level, we have a very limited remit here.

Theo

On 11-3-2018 20:52, John Bambenek wrote:

We are trying to develop a globally sounds solution to RDS that fits the needs of all stakeholders instead of using a tailored and specific law and applying that far beyond what it is intended to do.

-- John Bambenek

On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:49, theo geurts <gtheo@xs4all.nl> wrote:

What are we trying to solve here? And is that up to this WG?

Thanks,

Theo

On 11-3-2018 20:44, John Bambenek via gnso-rds-pdp-wg wrote:

It is simple. Every county in the world has a process for creating a legal person. That process is very different from acknowledging the creation of a natural person.

In an overwhelming majority if cases neither natural or legal persons will attempt to deceive you as to which they are. Microsoft isn’t going to say their domain is personal. People aren’t going to tell you they are really corporations.

In those rare cases of deception, every country on earth has a legal definition and surely a process of determining which is which.

-- John Bambenek

On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight < michele@blacknight.com> wrote:

John

If it was simple we wouldn’t have spent as long as we did in the PPSAI PDP discussing and debating it.

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ https://ceo.hosting/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 <+353%2059%20918%203072> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 <+353%2059%20918%203090> ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265, Ireland Company No.: 370845 *From: *John Bambenek <jcb@bambenekconsulting.com> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:38 *To: *Michele Neylon <michele@blacknight.com> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net>, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet@gmail.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards

The legal vs natural person debate is simple. Surely we can agree on that.

I think there is a great deal of overcomplicating commercial purpose just in my quick review. We need not let the exceptions drive the rule. One quick indicator is “accepts payments”. I bet we could all come up with a dozen are so unambiguous indicators quickly. Let the edge cases be adjudicated. -- John Bambenek

On Mar 11, 2018, at 14:28, Michele Neylon - Blacknight < michele@blacknight.com> wrote:

John

While the final report I pointed you to contains the conclusions I’d recommend you take the time to have a look over the PPSAI deliberations on this matter.

You talked about “commercial use”, which is understandable, however, as the discussions show it is not as simple as a difference between legal person and natural person.

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ https://ceo.hosting/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 <+353%2059%20918%203072> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 <+353%2059%20918%203090> ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265, Ireland Company No.: 370845 *From: *John Bambenek <jcb@bambenekconsulting.com> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 15:06 *To: *Michele Neylon <michele@blacknight.com> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net>, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet@gmail.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards

Ok, well having read that I believe my answer is still a valid response to Volker. You ask during registration, make it mandatory to answer one way or the other, and in complaints simple use the definitions in use in the jurisdiction involved. Surely every country on earth knows the difference between legal and natural persons, and I think tax law is an easy barometer for determining commercial activity. Yes, it puts some effort on providers who want to avoid “content” but I reiterate the point of contention here:

That those who actually work in security and those who actually work in protecting privacy (with lone exceptions of DPAs) are of the loud, firm, and unanimous contention that not having access to this information in a free, easy, and programmatic way while lead to a dramatic and clear lose of privacy far beyond the presence of emails in whois/rds. The policy position that we must extend full privacy to everyone (despite a mandate to extend that far) is fundamentally unnecessary and that the security and stability of the internet which is actually in ICANNs mission is more important than convenience of registries/registrars in dealing with how to define commercial which is NOT in ICANNs mission. -- John Bambenek

On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:39, Michele Neylon - Blacknight < michele@blacknight.com> wrote:

Here’s the final report:

https://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/raa/ppsai-final-07dec15-en.pdf

The relevant section is from page 39 onwards and again from page 55

Regards

Michele

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ https://ceo.hosting/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 <+353%2059%20918%203072> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 <+353%2059%20918%203090> ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265, Ireland Company No.: 370845 *From: *John Bambenek <jcb@bambenekconsulting.com> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 14:31 *To: *Michele Neylon <michele@blacknight.com> *Cc: *Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net>, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet@gmail.com>, RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards

For those not present, can you summarize or at least point to a document we can read? Stating that something was discussed somewhere gives me little to go on as to what information you’d like me to know.

-- John Bambenek

On Mar 11, 2018, at 13:14, Michele Neylon - Blacknight < michele@blacknight.com> wrote:

This issue was discussed in depth during the PPSAI (proxy privacy) PDP.

-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ https://ceo.hosting/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 <+353%2059%20918%203072> Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 <+353%2059%20918%203090> ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265, Ireland Company No.: 370845 *From: *gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> *Date: *Sunday 11 March 2018 at 11:24 *To: *sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet@gmail.com> *Cc: *RDS WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Discriminatory rds Data Privacy Standards

Please provide a workable, reasonable method of identifying the domain names used in commercial manner amongst the existing hundreds of million registered domains. Please also identify how this determination can be updated automatically once the use of a domain name changes.

The fact is that commercial use is content. ICANN does not deal with content except for very small and specific areas. ICANN and registrars have no relationship with the content that is published under a domain name. We certainly have no control over specific uses.

These details belong on the websites, as is provided in the laws in Europe and other jurisdictions. There is no need to duplicate this in whois.

Volker

On 9. Mar 2018, at 07:49, sivasubramanian muthusamy <6.internet@gmail.com> wrote:

Private persons (including private persons in a public career or a career of public exposure) need privacy. Why is this notion extended to protect online commercial entities of varying ethical standards? Does Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce have a right to privacy of its Registrant data?

Their customers don't look for contact information from RDS, but in the entity's commercial web site, but the information is not there. Many online entities operate from behind layers of veil that separate them from customers and enable them to carry on their commercial activity with minimal or non-existent accountability.

Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce sells millions of air tickets but does not seem to have a building somewhere, and/or does not have an employee with a name. Yourairlinereservations.onlinecommerce takes your money, takes your information without disclosing any of its own, and does not have a phone number or answer email messages (operates through call centers, answers email messages by templates) when you are stranded Midway with a ticket that doesn't work. Yourcasino takes your credit card number, yourpharmacy takes your money and medical data, yourholiday owns your passport, and all these entities don't have an email address, phone number or a building with a person.

Could we do away with this notion of (Registrant)data privacy where it concerns an online entity that carries out commercial monetary transactions online? That would require us to discriminate between private persons and e-commerce entities, which would be a complex process - agreed. Nevertheless, could we think about this?

Sivasubramanian M _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg

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