Phase 1 vs Phase 2 proposals/topics (was Re: UPDATE: Agenda and Materials for 26 Sept Working Group Meeting 1200 UTC)
Hi folks, I notice that 2 of the proposals scheduled for today's call (#15 and #22, additional penalties for repeat offenders + loser pays) were ones I identified on September 11, 2018 as being more appropriate for Phase 2 discussions, see: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/2018-September/003315.html and the ensuing thread. On our last call, Phil Corwin stated: https://gnso.icann.org/sites/default/files/file/field-file-attach/transcript... "And then those of you who saw on the list last week, George Kirikos raised a question regarding the distinction between Phase 1 and Phase 2 proposals and the chairs are going to put out a statement on that in the next day or two that can be discussed on the list before the next meeting. But we haven't had a chance to put that out yet but the few proposals that George identified that he thought would be more properly addressed in Phase 2 also were not called up, although I think the first one would have been Number 14, which would not have been reached today anyway. But we’re going to have a statement out on that in the next few days." (page 2) However, no such statement has been put out by the co-chairs since that last call. Since we only have 2 minutes to respond to each proposal during today's call, I'd like to reiterate my objection to having these proposals be presented at this time, unless it's agreed in advance that these same topics are going to be completely barred from consideration in relation to the UDRP. It's clear to me that these same topics are intended to be raised again for the UDRP (indeed, the rationale for proposal #22 "loser pays" explicitly references the UDRP). They shouldn't get two bites at the apple, so to speak. One of the main justifications for splitting the work into Phase 1 and Phase 2 was to avoid duplication, and having these proposals presented and considered now makes a mockery of that. Should the proposals above be allowed to proceed to the presentation stage now, despite their relevance to the UDRP and Phase 2, then various counterbalancing proposals to protect registrants' rights and due process that I submitted and explicitly labelled as being more suitable for Phase 2 (since they apply to both the URS and UDRP) should be given equal time in Phase 1 presentations to be considered with and alongside the above proposals. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 2:21 PM, Julie Hedlund <julie.hedlund@icann.org> wrote:
Dear RPM PDP Working Group members,
On behalf of the Co-Chairs, please see the draft agenda below for the Working Group meeting on Wednesday, 26 September at 1200 UTC (NOTE ROTATING TIME) for 120 minutes.
Per Co-Chairs’ Proposed Procedure, for this next meeting, the Working Group will continue discussion of the Individual URS Proposals. According to the timeline published on the wiki and as described in the message below, the order of the presentation is as follows. WG members are requested to review the presentations prior to Wednesday’s meeting. Staff would like to provide you a heads-up that the order of presentations tomorrow would be slightly adjusted as follows:
Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-10.pd... Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-11.pd... George Kirikos: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-24.pd... Zak Muscovitch: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-25.pd... Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-15.pd... Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-16.pd... Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-22.pd...
Per the procedure, please also note the following time requirements for the presentations:
When a proposal is up for discussion, its proponent will be accorded a maximum of five (5) minutes to orally present the proposal, rationale, and supporting evidence. The floor will then be open to other Working Group members to comment on the proposal for a maximum of two (2) minutes each, with total discussion limited to twenty (20) minutes. However, if there is exceptionally high interest in a topic, the Co-Chairs would have discretion to increase the discussion time. At the end of twenty (20) minutes, or when there are no more commenters in queue, the proponent will have up to four (4) minutes to respond and/or propose a modification of the proposal based upon the discussion.
Depending on the actual progress during the Wednesday meeting, if a proposal cannot be presented due to time limitation, the presentation should be deferred to a future meeting.
Draft Agenda:
Review Agenda/Statements of Interest Updates Discussion of Individual URS Proposals (See: wiki) AOB
Best,
Mary, Ariel, Berry, and Julie
On Behalf of the RPM PDP WG Co-Chairs
_______________________________________________ gnso-rpm-wg mailing list gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rpm-wg
Thank you for your thoughts George; I disagree, however, as these proposals refer to the mechanism of the URS. Should similar proposals be put forward for the UDRP I would not see any contradiction. Kind regards Marie -----Original Message----- From: gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of George Kirikos Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:45 AM To: gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org Subject: [gnso-rpm-wg] Phase 1 vs Phase 2 proposals/topics (was Re: UPDATE: Agenda and Materials for 26 Sept Working Group Meeting 1200 UTC) Hi folks, I notice that 2 of the proposals scheduled for today's call (#15 and #22, additional penalties for repeat offenders + loser pays) were ones I identified on September 11, 2018 as being more appropriate for Phase 2 discussions, see: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/2018-September/003315.html and the ensuing thread. On our last call, Phil Corwin stated: https://gnso.icann.org/sites/default/files/file/field-file-attach/transcript... "And then those of you who saw on the list last week, George Kirikos raised a question regarding the distinction between Phase 1 and Phase 2 proposals and the chairs are going to put out a statement on that in the next day or two that can be discussed on the list before the next meeting. But we haven't had a chance to put that out yet but the few proposals that George identified that he thought would be more properly addressed in Phase 2 also were not called up, although I think the first one would have been Number 14, which would not have been reached today anyway. But we’re going to have a statement out on that in the next few days." (page 2) However, no such statement has been put out by the co-chairs since that last call. Since we only have 2 minutes to respond to each proposal during today's call, I'd like to reiterate my objection to having these proposals be presented at this time, unless it's agreed in advance that these same topics are going to be completely barred from consideration in relation to the UDRP. It's clear to me that these same topics are intended to be raised again for the UDRP (indeed, the rationale for proposal #22 "loser pays" explicitly references the UDRP). They shouldn't get two bites at the apple, so to speak. One of the main justifications for splitting the work into Phase 1 and Phase 2 was to avoid duplication, and having these proposals presented and considered now makes a mockery of that. Should the proposals above be allowed to proceed to the presentation stage now, despite their relevance to the UDRP and Phase 2, then various counterbalancing proposals to protect registrants' rights and due process that I submitted and explicitly labelled as being more suitable for Phase 2 (since they apply to both the URS and UDRP) should be given equal time in Phase 1 presentations to be considered with and alongside the above proposals. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 2:21 PM, Julie Hedlund <julie.hedlund@icann.org> wrote:
Dear RPM PDP Working Group members,
On behalf of the Co-Chairs, please see the draft agenda below for the Working Group meeting on Wednesday, 26 September at 1200 UTC (NOTE ROTATING TIME) for 120 minutes.
Per Co-Chairs’ Proposed Procedure, for this next meeting, the Working Group will continue discussion of the Individual URS Proposals. According to the timeline published on the wiki and as described in the message below, the order of the presentation is as follows. WG members are requested to review the presentations prior to Wednesday’s meeting. Staff would like to provide you a heads-up that the order of presentations tomorrow would be slightly adjusted as follows:
Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -10.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -11.pdf?api=v2 George Kirikos: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -24.pdf?api=v2 Zak Muscovitch: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -25.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -15.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -16.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -22.pdf?api=v2
Per the procedure, please also note the following time requirements for the presentations:
When a proposal is up for discussion, its proponent will be accorded a maximum of five (5) minutes to orally present the proposal, rationale, and supporting evidence. The floor will then be open to other Working Group members to comment on the proposal for a maximum of two (2) minutes each, with total discussion limited to twenty (20) minutes. However, if there is exceptionally high interest in a topic, the Co-Chairs would have discretion to increase the discussion time. At the end of twenty (20) minutes, or when there are no more commenters in queue, the proponent will have up to four (4) minutes to respond and/or propose a modification of the proposal based upon the discussion.
Depending on the actual progress during the Wednesday meeting, if a proposal cannot be presented due to time limitation, the presentation should be deferred to a future meeting.
Draft Agenda:
Review Agenda/Statements of Interest Updates Discussion of Individual URS Proposals (See: wiki) AOB
Best,
Mary, Ariel, Berry, and Julie
On Behalf of the RPM PDP WG Co-Chairs
_______________________________________________ gnso-rpm-wg mailing list gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rpm-wg
gnso-rpm-wg mailing list gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rpm-wg
Hi Marie, If that's the standard (which I don't think it is), then all of my proposals that also refer to the "mechanism of the URS" should be presented now too. However, that defeats the entire purpose of having a Phase 1 vs Phase 2 distinction. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 6:13 AM, Marie Pattullo <marie.pattullo@aim.be> wrote:
Thank you for your thoughts George; I disagree, however, as these proposals refer to the mechanism of the URS. Should similar proposals be put forward for the UDRP I would not see any contradiction. Kind regards Marie
-----Original Message----- From: gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of George Kirikos Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:45 AM To: gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org Subject: [gnso-rpm-wg] Phase 1 vs Phase 2 proposals/topics (was Re: UPDATE: Agenda and Materials for 26 Sept Working Group Meeting 1200 UTC)
Hi folks,
I notice that 2 of the proposals scheduled for today's call (#15 and #22, additional penalties for repeat offenders + loser pays) were ones I identified on September 11, 2018 as being more appropriate for Phase 2 discussions, see:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/2018-September/003315.html
and the ensuing thread. On our last call, Phil Corwin stated:
https://gnso.icann.org/sites/default/files/file/field-file-attach/transcript...
"And then those of you who saw on the list last week, George Kirikos raised a question regarding the distinction between Phase 1 and Phase 2 proposals and the chairs are going to put out a statement on that in the next day or two that can be discussed on the list before the next meeting. But we haven't had a chance to put that out yet but the few proposals that George identified that he thought would be more properly addressed in Phase 2 also were not called up, although I think the first one would have been Number 14, which would not have been reached today anyway. But we’re going to have a statement out on that in the next few days." (page 2)
However, no such statement has been put out by the co-chairs since that last call.
Since we only have 2 minutes to respond to each proposal during today's call, I'd like to reiterate my objection to having these proposals be presented at this time, unless it's agreed in advance that these same topics are going to be completely barred from consideration in relation to the UDRP.
It's clear to me that these same topics are intended to be raised again for the UDRP (indeed, the rationale for proposal #22 "loser pays" explicitly references the UDRP). They shouldn't get two bites at the apple, so to speak.
One of the main justifications for splitting the work into Phase 1 and Phase 2 was to avoid duplication, and having these proposals presented and considered now makes a mockery of that.
Should the proposals above be allowed to proceed to the presentation stage now, despite their relevance to the UDRP and Phase 2, then various counterbalancing proposals to protect registrants' rights and due process that I submitted and explicitly labelled as being more suitable for Phase 2 (since they apply to both the URS and UDRP) should be given equal time in Phase 1 presentations to be considered with and alongside the above proposals.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 2:21 PM, Julie Hedlund <julie.hedlund@icann.org> wrote:
Dear RPM PDP Working Group members,
On behalf of the Co-Chairs, please see the draft agenda below for the Working Group meeting on Wednesday, 26 September at 1200 UTC (NOTE ROTATING TIME) for 120 minutes.
Per Co-Chairs’ Proposed Procedure, for this next meeting, the Working Group will continue discussion of the Individual URS Proposals. According to the timeline published on the wiki and as described in the message below, the order of the presentation is as follows. WG members are requested to review the presentations prior to Wednesday’s meeting. Staff would like to provide you a heads-up that the order of presentations tomorrow would be slightly adjusted as follows:
Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -10.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -11.pdf?api=v2 George Kirikos: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -24.pdf?api=v2 Zak Muscovitch: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -25.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -15.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -16.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -22.pdf?api=v2
Per the procedure, please also note the following time requirements for the presentations:
When a proposal is up for discussion, its proponent will be accorded a maximum of five (5) minutes to orally present the proposal, rationale, and supporting evidence. The floor will then be open to other Working Group members to comment on the proposal for a maximum of two (2) minutes each, with total discussion limited to twenty (20) minutes. However, if there is exceptionally high interest in a topic, the Co-Chairs would have discretion to increase the discussion time. At the end of twenty (20) minutes, or when there are no more commenters in queue, the proponent will have up to four (4) minutes to respond and/or propose a modification of the proposal based upon the discussion.
Depending on the actual progress during the Wednesday meeting, if a proposal cannot be presented due to time limitation, the presentation should be deferred to a future meeting.
Draft Agenda:
Review Agenda/Statements of Interest Updates Discussion of Individual URS Proposals (See: wiki) AOB
Best,
Mary, Ariel, Berry, and Julie
On Behalf of the RPM PDP WG Co-Chairs
_______________________________________________ gnso-rpm-wg mailing list gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rpm-wg
gnso-rpm-wg mailing list gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rpm-wg
Injecting any additional costs into an administrative system with all the inherent weaknesses is a bad idea, a very bad idea rather we should be concentrating on improving the administrative systems by making them more equitable and more efficient. There is little point trying to partially replicate more and more from judicial systems, if people want to see increased punitive measures to curb abusive behaviour then we should be concentrating on providing improved access to non administrative dispute resolution mechanisms. On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 11:13 AM Marie Pattullo <marie.pattullo@aim.be> wrote:
Thank you for your thoughts George; I disagree, however, as these proposals refer to the mechanism of the URS. Should similar proposals be put forward for the UDRP I would not see any contradiction. Kind regards Marie
-----Original Message----- From: gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of George Kirikos Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:45 AM To: gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org Subject: [gnso-rpm-wg] Phase 1 vs Phase 2 proposals/topics (was Re: UPDATE: Agenda and Materials for 26 Sept Working Group Meeting 1200 UTC)
Hi folks,
I notice that 2 of the proposals scheduled for today's call (#15 and #22, additional penalties for repeat offenders + loser pays) were ones I identified on September 11, 2018 as being more appropriate for Phase 2 discussions, see:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/2018-September/003315.html
and the ensuing thread. On our last call, Phil Corwin stated:
https://gnso.icann.org/sites/default/files/file/field-file-attach/transcript...
"And then those of you who saw on the list last week, George Kirikos raised a question regarding the distinction between Phase 1 and Phase 2 proposals and the chairs are going to put out a statement on that in the next day or two that can be discussed on the list before the next meeting. But we haven't had a chance to put that out yet but the few proposals that George identified that he thought would be more properly addressed in Phase 2 also were not called up, although I think the first one would have been Number 14, which would not have been reached today anyway. But we’re going to have a statement out on that in the next few days." (page 2)
However, no such statement has been put out by the co-chairs since that last call.
Since we only have 2 minutes to respond to each proposal during today's call, I'd like to reiterate my objection to having these proposals be presented at this time, unless it's agreed in advance that these same topics are going to be completely barred from consideration in relation to the UDRP.
It's clear to me that these same topics are intended to be raised again for the UDRP (indeed, the rationale for proposal #22 "loser pays" explicitly references the UDRP). They shouldn't get two bites at the apple, so to speak.
One of the main justifications for splitting the work into Phase 1 and Phase 2 was to avoid duplication, and having these proposals presented and considered now makes a mockery of that.
Should the proposals above be allowed to proceed to the presentation stage now, despite their relevance to the UDRP and Phase 2, then various counterbalancing proposals to protect registrants' rights and due process that I submitted and explicitly labelled as being more suitable for Phase 2 (since they apply to both the URS and UDRP) should be given equal time in Phase 1 presentations to be considered with and alongside the above proposals.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 2:21 PM, Julie Hedlund <julie.hedlund@icann.org> wrote:
Dear RPM PDP Working Group members,
On behalf of the Co-Chairs, please see the draft agenda below for the Working Group meeting on Wednesday, 26 September at 1200 UTC (NOTE ROTATING TIME) for 120 minutes.
Per Co-Chairs’ Proposed Procedure, for this next meeting, the Working Group will continue discussion of the Individual URS Proposals. According to the timeline published on the wiki and as described in the message below, the order of the presentation is as follows. WG members are requested to review the presentations prior to Wednesday’s meeting. Staff would like to provide you a heads-up that the order of presentations tomorrow would be slightly adjusted as follows:
Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -10.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -11.pdf?api=v2 George Kirikos: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -24.pdf?api=v2 Zak Muscovitch: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -25.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -15.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -16.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -22.pdf?api=v2
Per the procedure, please also note the following time requirements for the presentations:
When a proposal is up for discussion, its proponent will be accorded a maximum of five (5) minutes to orally present the proposal, rationale, and supporting evidence. The floor will then be open to other Working Group members to comment on the proposal for a maximum of two (2) minutes each, with total discussion limited to twenty (20) minutes. However, if there is exceptionally high interest in a topic, the Co-Chairs would have discretion to increase the discussion time. At the end of twenty (20) minutes, or when there are no more commenters in queue, the proponent will have up to four (4) minutes to respond and/or propose a modification of the proposal based upon the discussion.
Depending on the actual progress during the Wednesday meeting, if a proposal cannot be presented due to time limitation, the presentation should be deferred to a future meeting.
Draft Agenda:
Review Agenda/Statements of Interest Updates Discussion of Individual URS Proposals (See: wiki) AOB
Best,
Mary, Ariel, Berry, and Julie
On Behalf of the RPM PDP WG Co-Chairs
_______________________________________________ gnso-rpm-wg mailing list gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rpm-wg
gnso-rpm-wg mailing list gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rpm-wg _______________________________________________ gnso-rpm-wg mailing list gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rpm-wg
Paul, this is a good point that such RPMs may have limits vis-a-vis court proceedings; would you be able to expand on what improved acces might entail (for example ICANN or CPHs subsidizing filing fees)? Brian On 26 September 2018 at 12:59:31 CEST, Paul Tattersfield <gpmgroup@gmail.com> wrote: Injecting any additional costs into an administrative system with all the inherent weaknesses is a bad idea, a very bad idea rather we should be concentrating on improving the administrative systems by making them more equitable and more efficient. There is little point trying to partially replicate more and more from judicial systems, if people want to see increased punitive measures to curb abusive behaviour then we should be concentrating on providing improved access to non administrative dispute resolution mechanisms. On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 11:13 AM Marie Pattullo <marie.pattullo@aim.be<mailto:marie.pattullo@aim.be>> wrote: Thank you for your thoughts George; I disagree, however, as these proposals refer to the mechanism of the URS. Should similar proposals be put forward for the UDRP I would not see any contradiction. Kind regards Marie -----Original Message----- From: gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org>> On Behalf Of George Kirikos Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:45 AM To: gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org> Subject: [gnso-rpm-wg] Phase 1 vs Phase 2 proposals/topics (was Re: UPDATE: Agenda and Materials for 26 Sept Working Group Meeting 1200 UTC) Hi folks, I notice that 2 of the proposals scheduled for today's call (#15 and #22, additional penalties for repeat offenders + loser pays) were ones I identified on September 11, 2018 as being more appropriate for Phase 2 discussions, see: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/2018-September/003315.html and the ensuing thread. On our last call, Phil Corwin stated: https://gnso.icann.org/sites/default/files/file/field-file-attach/transcript... "And then those of you who saw on the list last week, George Kirikos raised a question regarding the distinction between Phase 1 and Phase 2 proposals and the chairs are going to put out a statement on that in the next day or two that can be discussed on the list before the next meeting. But we haven't had a chance to put that out yet but the few proposals that George identified that he thought would be more properly addressed in Phase 2 also were not called up, although I think the first one would have been Number 14, which would not have been reached today anyway. But we’re going to have a statement out on that in the next few days." (page 2) However, no such statement has been put out by the co-chairs since that last call. Since we only have 2 minutes to respond to each proposal during today's call, I'd like to reiterate my objection to having these proposals be presented at this time, unless it's agreed in advance that these same topics are going to be completely barred from consideration in relation to the UDRP. It's clear to me that these same topics are intended to be raised again for the UDRP (indeed, the rationale for proposal #22 "loser pays" explicitly references the UDRP). They shouldn't get two bites at the apple, so to speak. One of the main justifications for splitting the work into Phase 1 and Phase 2 was to avoid duplication, and having these proposals presented and considered now makes a mockery of that. Should the proposals above be allowed to proceed to the presentation stage now, despite their relevance to the UDRP and Phase 2, then various counterbalancing proposals to protect registrants' rights and due process that I submitted and explicitly labelled as being more suitable for Phase 2 (since they apply to both the URS and UDRP) should be given equal time in Phase 1 presentations to be considered with and alongside the above proposals. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 2:21 PM, Julie Hedlund <julie.hedlund@icann.org<mailto:julie.hedlund@icann.org>> wrote:
Dear RPM PDP Working Group members,
On behalf of the Co-Chairs, please see the draft agenda below for the Working Group meeting on Wednesday, 26 September at 1200 UTC (NOTE ROTATING TIME) for 120 minutes.
Per Co-Chairs’ Proposed Procedure, for this next meeting, the Working Group will continue discussion of the Individual URS Proposals. According to the timeline published on the wiki and as described in the message below, the order of the presentation is as follows. WG members are requested to review the presentations prior to Wednesday’s meeting. Staff would like to provide you a heads-up that the order of presentations tomorrow would be slightly adjusted as follows:
Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -10.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -11.pdf?api=v2 George Kirikos: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -24.pdf?api=v2 Zak Muscovitch: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -25.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -15.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -16.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -22.pdf?api=v2
Per the procedure, please also note the following time requirements for the presentations:
When a proposal is up for discussion, its proponent will be accorded a maximum of five (5) minutes to orally present the proposal, rationale, and supporting evidence. The floor will then be open to other Working Group members to comment on the proposal for a maximum of two (2) minutes each, with total discussion limited to twenty (20) minutes. However, if there is exceptionally high interest in a topic, the Co-Chairs would have discretion to increase the discussion time. At the end of twenty (20) minutes, or when there are no more commenters in queue, the proponent will have up to four (4) minutes to respond and/or propose a modification of the proposal based upon the discussion.
Depending on the actual progress during the Wednesday meeting, if a proposal cannot be presented due to time limitation, the presentation should be deferred to a future meeting.
Draft Agenda:
Review Agenda/Statements of Interest Updates Discussion of Individual URS Proposals (See: wiki) AOB
Best,
Mary, Ariel, Berry, and Julie
On Behalf of the RPM PDP WG Co-Chairs
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gnso-rpm-wg mailing list gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rpm-wg _______________________________________________ gnso-rpm-wg mailing list gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rpm-wg World Intellectual Property Organization Disclaimer: This electronic message may contain privileged, confidential and copyright protected information. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please immediately notify the sender and delete this e-mail and all its attachments. Please ensure all e-mail attachments are scanned for viruses prior to opening or using.
Personally Brian I would focus in the main on jurisdictional issues and process improvements. As I said in the AC Chat today I think we should celebrate that URS, UDRP and judicial proceedings are (and should remain) markedly different tools because the differences are actually strengths rather than weaknesses. We should also include advice on RAA 3.18 to take the immediacy out of egregious abuse because it’s important to remember the TM owner is a third party looking to initiate proceedings to intervene in a private contract. We should also be mindful that any administrative dispute mechanisms as a whole need to be better aligned to legislative frameworks especially if there are instances where the judicial systems are clearly providing more equitable outcomes. Whatever the reasons continued divergence of outcomes is very damaging for the credibility of URS & UDRP therefore any suggested improvements should consider this very carefully before being placed out for wider consideration. On tangible suggestions, I personally see a great deal of value in mediation, certainly for UDRP and possibly for URS as we know Nominet has an incredible 30% no cost [to the parties] resolution of disputes through this method. I say possibly for URS because speed of relief is especially important for URS and we would need to carefully balance any additional delays introduced by [any] mediation response periods, again this maybe made less critical by also using the 3.18 route to help remove some of the urgency. Having the 3.18 route which allows the shutting down of a website in minutes or hours and URS which permits the shutting down of a website in days through non-judicial injunction remedies without having to go to court and neither of which need to be confirmed by a court of competent jurisdiction are already incredible benefits. If we could further improve on this by removing the costs for all parties for 30% of disputes this would be a phenomenal achievement. Where there is disagreement with the outcome of a determination better access to justice through the existing judicial route could be created by looking again at the mutual jurisdiction clause and supplemented with a separate arbitration track which registrants could choose to use as alternative to judicial proceedings. On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 12:11 PM BECKHAM, Brian <brian.beckham@wipo.int> wrote:
Paul, this is a good point that such RPMs may have limits vis-a-vis court proceedings; would you be able to expand on what improved acces might entail (for example ICANN or CPHs subsidizing filing fees)?
Brian
On 26 September 2018 at 12:59:31 CEST, Paul Tattersfield < gpmgroup@gmail.com> wrote:
Injecting any additional costs into an administrative system with all the inherent weaknesses is a bad idea, a very bad idea rather we should be concentrating on improving the administrative systems by making them more equitable and more efficient. There is little point trying to partially replicate more and more from judicial systems, if people want to see increased punitive measures to curb abusive behaviour then we should be concentrating on providing improved access to non administrative dispute resolution mechanisms.
On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 11:13 AM Marie Pattullo <marie.pattullo@aim.be> wrote:
Thank you for your thoughts George; I disagree, however, as these proposals refer to the mechanism of the URS. Should similar proposals be put forward for the UDRP I would not see any contradiction. Kind regards Marie
-----Original Message----- From: gnso-rpm-wg <gnso-rpm-wg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of George Kirikos Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2018 11:45 AM To: gnso-rpm-wg@icann.org Subject: [gnso-rpm-wg] Phase 1 vs Phase 2 proposals/topics (was Re: UPDATE: Agenda and Materials for 26 Sept Working Group Meeting 1200 UTC)
Hi folks,
I notice that 2 of the proposals scheduled for today's call (#15 and #22, additional penalties for repeat offenders + loser pays) were ones I identified on September 11, 2018 as being more appropriate for Phase 2 discussions, see:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/2018-September/003315.html
and the ensuing thread. On our last call, Phil Corwin stated:
https://gnso.icann.org/sites/default/files/file/field-file-attach/transcript...
"And then those of you who saw on the list last week, George Kirikos raised a question regarding the distinction between Phase 1 and Phase 2 proposals and the chairs are going to put out a statement on that in the next day or two that can be discussed on the list before the next meeting. But we haven't had a chance to put that out yet but the few proposals that George identified that he thought would be more properly addressed in Phase 2 also were not called up, although I think the first one would have been Number 14, which would not have been reached today anyway. But we’re going to have a statement out on that in the next few days." (page 2)
However, no such statement has been put out by the co-chairs since that last call.
Since we only have 2 minutes to respond to each proposal during today's call, I'd like to reiterate my objection to having these proposals be presented at this time, unless it's agreed in advance that these same topics are going to be completely barred from consideration in relation to the UDRP.
It's clear to me that these same topics are intended to be raised again for the UDRP (indeed, the rationale for proposal #22 "loser pays" explicitly references the UDRP). They shouldn't get two bites at the apple, so to speak.
One of the main justifications for splitting the work into Phase 1 and Phase 2 was to avoid duplication, and having these proposals presented and considered now makes a mockery of that.
Should the proposals above be allowed to proceed to the presentation stage now, despite their relevance to the UDRP and Phase 2, then various counterbalancing proposals to protect registrants' rights and due process that I submitted and explicitly labelled as being more suitable for Phase 2 (since they apply to both the URS and UDRP) should be given equal time in Phase 1 presentations to be considered with and alongside the above proposals.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 2:21 PM, Julie Hedlund <julie.hedlund@icann.org> wrote:
Dear RPM PDP Working Group members,
On behalf of the Co-Chairs, please see the draft agenda below for the Working Group meeting on Wednesday, 26 September at 1200 UTC (NOTE ROTATING TIME) for 120 minutes.
Per Co-Chairs’ Proposed Procedure, for this next meeting, the Working Group will continue discussion of the Individual URS Proposals. According to the timeline published on the wiki and as described in the message below, the order of the presentation is as follows. WG members are requested to review the presentations prior to Wednesday’s meeting. Staff would like to provide you a heads-up that the order of presentations tomorrow would be slightly adjusted as follows:
Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -10.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -11.pdf?api=v2 George Kirikos: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -24.pdf?api=v2 Zak Muscovitch: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -25.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -15.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -16.pdf?api=v2 Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal -22.pdf?api=v2
Per the procedure, please also note the following time requirements for the presentations:
When a proposal is up for discussion, its proponent will be accorded a maximum of five (5) minutes to orally present the proposal, rationale, and supporting evidence. The floor will then be open to other Working Group members to comment on the proposal for a maximum of two (2) minutes each, with total discussion limited to twenty (20) minutes. However, if there is exceptionally high interest in a topic, the Co-Chairs would have discretion to increase the discussion time. At the end of twenty (20) minutes, or when there are no more commenters in queue, the proponent will have up to four (4) minutes to respond and/or propose a modification of the proposal based upon the discussion.
Depending on the actual progress during the Wednesday meeting, if a proposal cannot be presented due to time limitation, the presentation should be deferred to a future meeting.
Draft Agenda:
Review Agenda/Statements of Interest Updates Discussion of Individual URS Proposals (See: wiki) AOB
Best,
Mary, Ariel, Berry, and Julie
On Behalf of the RPM PDP WG Co-Chairs
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Hi folks, Just to followup on this Phase 1 vs Phase 2 topic, it was was discussed at the beginning of today's call, and apparently it was decided that "Anyone has the opportunity to recategorize their proposals by COB Friday, 28 Sept." (i.e. categorized from Phase 2 back into Phase 1) and that no one would be precluded from putting into Phase 1 a URS proposal that would also be made later on for the UDRP (e.g. loser pays). As I said during the call, I don't agree that that's the right approach, as it basically doubles the workload, i.e. the same proposals that are being made for the URS will be debated again for the UDRP in Phase 2. The folks who have submitted topics into Phase 1 that belong in Phase 2 due to their applicability to both the URS and UDRP should have deferred them like I initially did, to avoid that duplication. But, as that appears to be the will of the working group, I hereby recategorize the 11 proposals I previously made that could have been deferred to Phase 2 as instead being applicable for consideration in Phase 1 also, so that the public can comment on them in our initial draft report. https://community.icann.org/display/RARPMRIAGPWG/URS+Proposals [The other 3 proposals I submitted, of the 14 in total, were strictly for the URS] Let me know if I should adjust the text of those 11 proposals (didn't want to jump the gun and resubmit them, lest folks think I modified the essence of the proposals). The only practical "difference" would be that the proposal would be to limit the policy change to the URS first (and then we'll debate the issue all over again in Phase 2, to change the UDRP policy in the exact same manner later!), so the presentation doesn't really depend on any modified text. Sincerely, George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/ On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 5:44 AM, George Kirikos <icann@leap.com> wrote:
Hi folks,
I notice that 2 of the proposals scheduled for today's call (#15 and #22, additional penalties for repeat offenders + loser pays) were ones I identified on September 11, 2018 as being more appropriate for Phase 2 discussions, see:
https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-rpm-wg/2018-September/003315.html
and the ensuing thread. On our last call, Phil Corwin stated:
https://gnso.icann.org/sites/default/files/file/field-file-attach/transcript...
"And then those of you who saw on the list last week, George Kirikos raised a question regarding the distinction between Phase 1 and Phase 2 proposals and the chairs are going to put out a statement on that in the next day or two that can be discussed on the list before the next meeting. But we haven't had a chance to put that out yet but the few proposals that George identified that he thought would be more properly addressed in Phase 2 also were not called up, although I think the first one would have been Number 14, which would not have been reached today anyway. But we’re going to have a statement out on that in the next few days." (page 2)
However, no such statement has been put out by the co-chairs since that last call.
Since we only have 2 minutes to respond to each proposal during today's call, I'd like to reiterate my objection to having these proposals be presented at this time, unless it's agreed in advance that these same topics are going to be completely barred from consideration in relation to the UDRP.
It's clear to me that these same topics are intended to be raised again for the UDRP (indeed, the rationale for proposal #22 "loser pays" explicitly references the UDRP). They shouldn't get two bites at the apple, so to speak.
One of the main justifications for splitting the work into Phase 1 and Phase 2 was to avoid duplication, and having these proposals presented and considered now makes a mockery of that.
Should the proposals above be allowed to proceed to the presentation stage now, despite their relevance to the UDRP and Phase 2, then various counterbalancing proposals to protect registrants' rights and due process that I submitted and explicitly labelled as being more suitable for Phase 2 (since they apply to both the URS and UDRP) should be given equal time in Phase 1 presentations to be considered with and alongside the above proposals.
Sincerely,
George Kirikos 416-588-0269 http://www.leap.com/
On Tue, Sep 25, 2018 at 2:21 PM, Julie Hedlund <julie.hedlund@icann.org> wrote:
Dear RPM PDP Working Group members,
On behalf of the Co-Chairs, please see the draft agenda below for the Working Group meeting on Wednesday, 26 September at 1200 UTC (NOTE ROTATING TIME) for 120 minutes.
Per Co-Chairs’ Proposed Procedure, for this next meeting, the Working Group will continue discussion of the Individual URS Proposals. According to the timeline published on the wiki and as described in the message below, the order of the presentation is as follows. WG members are requested to review the presentations prior to Wednesday’s meeting. Staff would like to provide you a heads-up that the order of presentations tomorrow would be slightly adjusted as follows:
Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-10.pd... Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-11.pd... George Kirikos: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-24.pd... Zak Muscovitch: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-25.pd... Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-15.pd... Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-16.pd... Brian Winterfeldt’s team: https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/93126760/URS-Proposal-22.pd...
Per the procedure, please also note the following time requirements for the presentations:
When a proposal is up for discussion, its proponent will be accorded a maximum of five (5) minutes to orally present the proposal, rationale, and supporting evidence. The floor will then be open to other Working Group members to comment on the proposal for a maximum of two (2) minutes each, with total discussion limited to twenty (20) minutes. However, if there is exceptionally high interest in a topic, the Co-Chairs would have discretion to increase the discussion time. At the end of twenty (20) minutes, or when there are no more commenters in queue, the proponent will have up to four (4) minutes to respond and/or propose a modification of the proposal based upon the discussion.
Depending on the actual progress during the Wednesday meeting, if a proposal cannot be presented due to time limitation, the presentation should be deferred to a future meeting.
Draft Agenda:
Review Agenda/Statements of Interest Updates Discussion of Individual URS Proposals (See: wiki) AOB
Best,
Mary, Ariel, Berry, and Julie
On Behalf of the RPM PDP WG Co-Chairs
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participants (4)
-
BECKHAM, Brian -
George Kirikos -
Marie Pattullo -
Paul Tattersfield