Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG). Regards, Sarmad ============= Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it. Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/idn-guidelines-2011-09-02-en). The existing guideline states: 5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined." For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline: 15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts. Also see Additional Notes V and VI. 16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV. Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below: 1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system. Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose. We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns. Regards, IDN Guidelines WG -----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan) On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you. Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_news_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW1PmY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZLeg&e= was published. It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March. Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. ------------------------------------------------------------------- 16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your response. I will look into your answer and get back to you in case I come up with any question. Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/idn-guidelines-2011-09-02-en). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts. Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_news_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW1PmY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZLeg&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. ------------------------------------------------------------------- 16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear All, Kindly see below the acknowledgement received by JPRS on the response by IDNGWG. This email seems to have gone through in the mailing list so you may have already received it, but forwarding again, just to be sure. Regards, Sarmad -----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 3:01 PM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [JPRS yoshitaka 198] RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your response. I will look into your answer and get back to you in case I come up with any question. Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_res
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrc rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4 &m=52LHJ6fW9fTMdEqzHEr6ltSRnXB4s3Q3pFiEOc9hKjA&s=qSP879DLUA1DB50_gijc9uKxt3C I8Ans0RP8kgSzqA8&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org_r eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=52LHJ6fW9fTMdEqzHEr6ltSRn XB4s3Q3pFiEOc9hKjA&s=rwfJN44B7D00Zbn8i5bVhDHpUXyxgkPQcg4tSkzUrZ4&e=>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with
established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org_r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEa GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=52LHJ6fW9fTMdEqzHEr6ltSRnXB4s3Q3pFiEO c9hKjA&s=rwfJN44B7D00Zbn8i5bVhDHpUXyxgkPQcg4tSkzUrZ4&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_new s_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPS S6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW1P mY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZLe g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. ------------------------------------------------------------------- 16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your response. We summarized our understanding as below. Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG. We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments. We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16. Thanks again for your assistance. Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://www.icann.org/resources/pages/idn-guidelines-2011-09-02-en). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr24). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts. Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_news_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW1PmY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZLeg&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. ------------------------------------------------------------------- 16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, Thank you for your response. This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members. Regards, Sarmad -----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your response. We summarized our understanding as below. Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG. We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments. We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16. Thanks again for your assistance. Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_res
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrc rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4 &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhED-qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org_r eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_V g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with
established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org_r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEa GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_new s_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPS S6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW1P mY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZLe g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. ------------------------------------------------------------------- 16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM filter. Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members. We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the guidelines. === Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... === We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines. We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members. Thanks and Regards, Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later. Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_res
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrc rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4 &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhED-qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org_r eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_V g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with
established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org_r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEa GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_new s_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPS S6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW1P mY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZLe g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. ------------------------------------------------------------------- 16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
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Dear IDNGWG, Here is another comment from JPRS, in addition to the previous comment. We still need to respond to the previous comment. Please let me know if you would like to propose any changes in the suggested response in light of this new comment. Regards, Sarmad -----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 4:06 PM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM filter. Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members. We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the guidelines. === Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... === We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines. We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members. Thanks and Regards, Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later. Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r es
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3P Jp6wrc rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mx d028M4 &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhED -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org _r eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r =K TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm _V g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with
established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from
the
same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org _r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K TETvEa GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we- wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n ew s_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb PS S6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW 1P mY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ Le g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows.
16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
------------------------------------------------------------------ -
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
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Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, Thank you for your additional comment. This is to confirm that it has been shared with IDNGWG members. Regards, Sarmad -----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 4:06 PM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM filter. Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members. We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the guidelines. === Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... === We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines. We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members. Thanks and Regards, Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later. Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r es
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3P Jp6wrc rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mx d028M4 &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhED -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org _r eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r =K TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm _V g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with
established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from
the
same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org _r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K TETvEa GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we- wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n ew s_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb PS S6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW 1P mY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ Le g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows.
16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
------------------------------------------------------------------ -
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
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Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling. Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up query. Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR. Regards Sarmad ----------- Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS. Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the Japanese writing system. Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the Japanese writing system as well. Regards, IDN Guidelines WG -----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM filter. Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members. We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the guidelines. === Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... === We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines. We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members. Thanks and Regards, Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later. Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r es
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3P Jp6wrc rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mx d028M4 &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhED -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org _r eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r =K TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm _V g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with
established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from
the
same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org _r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K TETvEa GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we- wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n ew s_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb PS S6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW 1P mY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ Le g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows.
16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
------------------------------------------------------------------ -
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
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Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines. To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows. We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method. As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. should confusable labels be blocked? Please see the following examples. "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime" These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No". Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling.
Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up query.
Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR.
Regards Sarmad
----------- Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the Japanese writing system.
Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the Japanese writing system as well.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM filter.
Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the guidelines.
=== Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... ===
We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines.
We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members.
Thanks and Regards,
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r es
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3P Jp6wrc rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mx d028M4 &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhED -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org _r eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r =K TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm _V g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with
established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from
the
same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org _r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K TETvEa GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we- wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n ew s_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb PS S6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW 1P mY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ Le g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows.
16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
------------------------------------------------------------------ -
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
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[Internal message, Yoshitaka Okuno not included.] After reading the message Yoshitaka Okuno(1) I have the following reflections and questions: He states regarding example in 2 below: "These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people." Does he then mean people outside the Japanese community? "But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion." Does he mean that people from the Japanese community will have no problem to differentiate between the two phrases? Or does he mean that the two phrases are usually used in two different contexts so that no real confusion happens? In whose eyes should the "visual similarity" sit? Mats (1) As far as I can see, Yoshitaka is a male's name and therefore "he", "his". --- Mats Dufberg DNS Specialist, IIS Mobile: +46 73 065 3899 https://www.iis.se/en/ -----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2018 at 09:27 To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>, idngwg <idngwg@icann.org> Cc: "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines. To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows. We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method. As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. should confusable labels be blocked? Please see the following examples. "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime" These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No". Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling. > > Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up > query. > > Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the > integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR. > > Regards > Sarmad > > > ----------- > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at > multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS. > > Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, > Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. > Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated > Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji > (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the Japanese > writing system. > > Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases > allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the > Japanese writing system as well. > > Regards, > IDN Guidelines WG > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> > Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; > idngwg@icann.org > Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, > > I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM > filter. > > Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members. > > We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of > "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the > guidelines. > > === > Guideline 15: > For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han > scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, > Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a > single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... > === > > We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of > different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state > this concept in the guidelines. > > We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with > Integration Panel members. > > Thanks and Regards, > > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > PS. > We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in > applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is > needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later. > > Best Regards, > ---- > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > > On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 > Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > Thank you for your response. > > > > This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response > > below has been shared with the IDNGWG members. > > > > Regards, > > Sarmad > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM > > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> > > Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana > > <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org > > Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > > > Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, > > > > Thank you for your response. > > > > We summarized our understanding as below. > > > > Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad > > could forward it to IDNGWG. > > > > We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the > > Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments. > > > > We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as > > "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16. > > > > Thanks again for your assistance. > > > > Best Regards, > > ---- > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > > > > > > > On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 > > Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > > > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > > > Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group > > (IDNGWG). > > > > > > Regards, > > > Sarmad > > > ============= > > > > > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., > Ltd. > > > > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > > > Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the > > > continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple > > > WG meetings and the means to address it. > > > > > > Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version > > > 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of > > > the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r > > > es > > > > > ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3P > > Jp6wrc > > rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mx > > d028M4 > > &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhED > > -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states: > > > > > > 5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the > > > same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script > > > Names > > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > > > _r > > > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r > > > =K > > > TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm > > > _V > > > g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. > > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with > > established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled > > use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually > > confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to > > co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a > > corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined." > > > > > > For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has > > > been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, > > > while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline: > > > > > > 15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from > the > > > same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: > > > Unicode Script Property > > > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > > > _r > > > > > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K > > TETvEa > > GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we- > > wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with > > established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled > > use of multiple Unicode scripts. > > > Also see Additional Notes V and VI. > > > > > > 16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of > Unicode > > > scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must > > > not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code > > > points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly > > > defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional > Note IV. > > > > > > Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, > > > the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without > > > changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as > > > per the details > > > below: > > > > > > 1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG > > > discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in > > > Guideline 16. > > > 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be > > ambiguous > > > and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as > > > defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the > > > original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. > > > 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing > > system > > > uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the > > > WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes > > > "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As > > > the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed > > > that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the > guideline. > > > 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a > > known > > > case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes > > > that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. > > > Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen > > > to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively > > > these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the > Additional > > > Notes > > V > > > and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode > > > script"-mixing in Japanese writing system. > > > > > > Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call > > > for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically > > > for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed > > > cross-script > > cases. > > > Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these > > > guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional > > > mechanisms for this purpose. > > > > > > We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried > > > to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any > > > further input or concerns. > > > > > > Regards, > > > IDN Guidelines WG > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM > > > To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> > > > Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan > > > Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> > > > Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > > > > > Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, > > > (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan) > > > > > > On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN > > > implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in > > > the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For > > > these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from > you. > > > > > > Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the > > > IDN Guidelines" > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n > > > ew > > > s_anno > > > uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb > > > PS > > > S6sJms > > > 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW > > > 1P > > > mY1jJ5 > > > LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ > > > Le > > > g&e= > > > was published. > > > > > > It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior > > > correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March. > > > > > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., > Ltd. > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 > > > yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote: > > > > Dear IDN guidelines working group, > > > > > > > > Please refer to the following comments and proposal. > > > > The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your > > > > suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan. > > > > > > > > In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by > > > > Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room. > > > > > > > > I hope this may be of help to you. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Summary] > > > > > > > > 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually > confusable > > > > characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of > > > > multiple scripts. > > > > > > > > We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases > > > > stated in Guideline#15. > > > > Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a > > > > commingled manner based on established orthographies and > > > > conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in > > > > single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective > > > > set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE > > > > script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English > > > > writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE > > > > script. > > > > > > > > Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is > > > > allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same > > > > as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain > > > > labels. > > > > > > > > 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable > > > > characters are described. We think they are the good notes because > > > > the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed. > > > > > > > > Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable > > > > characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and > > > > in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think > > > > the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in > > > > guideline#16. > > > > > > > > [Suggestion] > > > > > > > > We would like to propose as follows. > > > > > > > > - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to > > > > a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section > > > > is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters". > > > > > > > > - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > 16. > > > > Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single > > > > set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly > > > > define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion > > > > between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > - > > > > > > > > Thanks for your consideration. > > > > ---- > > > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services > > > > Co., Ltd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D3F66E.4DAD12E0 > > Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > > Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" > > > > MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIK5D > > CCA9ow > > ggLCoAMCAQICEBnO/OtOViifQymetjGOKB8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwXzETMBEGCgmSJo > > mT8ixk > > ARkWA29yZzEVMBMGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWBWljYW5uMRIwEAYKCZImiZPyLGQBGRYCZHMxHT > > AbBgNV > > BAMTFGFkMS1sYXguZHMuaWNhbm4ub3JnMB4XDTE0MDcxMjAwMzkyMloXDTIwMDcxMTAwND > > kyMFow > > XzETMBEGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWA29yZzEVMBMGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWBWljYW5uMRIwEAYKCZ > > ImiZPy > > 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I'd like to understand what exactly this group can and should do going forward with the guidelines at this stage? While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG. As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish. Kal On 31/7/18 10:03 pm, Mats Dufberg wrote:
[Internal message, Yoshitaka Okuno not included.]
After reading the message Yoshitaka Okuno(1) I have the following reflections and questions:
He states regarding example in 2 below:
"These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people."
Does he then mean people outside the Japanese community?
"But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels.
Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion."
Does he mean that people from the Japanese community will have no problem to differentiate between the two phrases? Or does he mean that the two phrases are usually used in two different contexts so that no real confusion happens?
In whose eyes should the "visual similarity" sit?
Mats
(1) As far as I can see, Yoshitaka is a male's name and therefore "he", "his".
--- Mats Dufberg DNS Specialist, IIS Mobile: +46 73 065 3899 https://www.iis.se/en/
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2018 at 09:27 To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>, idngwg <idngwg@icann.org> Cc: "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted.
We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines.
To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows.
We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?
In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method.
As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing.
This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all.
Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No".
Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. should confusable labels be blocked?
Please see the following examples.
"ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey"
"八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime"
These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people.
But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels.
Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion.
If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP.
Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No".
Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling. > > Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up > query. > > Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the > integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR. > > Regards > Sarmad > > > ----------- > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at > multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS. > > Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, > Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. > Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated > Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji > (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the Japanese > writing system. > > Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases > allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the > Japanese writing system as well. > > Regards, > IDN Guidelines WG > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> > Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; > idngwg@icann.org > Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, > > I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM > filter. > > Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members. > > We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of > "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the > guidelines. > > === > Guideline 15: > For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han > scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, > Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a > single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... > === > > We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of > different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state > this concept in the guidelines. > > We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with > Integration Panel members. > > Thanks and Regards, > > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > PS. > We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in > applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is > needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later. > > Best Regards, > ---- > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > > On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 > Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > Thank you for your response. > > > > This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response > > below has been shared with the IDNGWG members. > > > > Regards, > > Sarmad > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM > > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> > > Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana > > <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org > > Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > > > Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, > > > > Thank you for your response. > > > > We summarized our understanding as below. > > > > Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad > > could forward it to IDNGWG. > > > > We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the > > Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments. > > > > We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as > > "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16. > > > > Thanks again for your assistance. > > > > Best Regards, > > ---- > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > > > > > > > On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 > > Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > > > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > > > Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group > > (IDNGWG). > > > > > > Regards, > > > Sarmad > > > ============= > > > > > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., > Ltd. > > > > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > > > Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the > > > continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple > > > WG meetings and the means to address it. > > > > > > Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version > > > 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of > > > the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r > > > es > > > > > ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3P > > Jp6wrc > > rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mx > > d028M4 > > &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhED > > -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states: > > > > > > 5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the > > > same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script > > > Names > > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > > > _r > > > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r > > > =K > > > TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm > > > _V > > > g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. > > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with > > established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled > > use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually > > confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to > > co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a > > corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined." > > > > > > For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has > > > been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, > > > while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline: > > > > > > 15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from > the > > > same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: > > > Unicode Script Property > > > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > > > _r > > > > > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K > > TETvEa > > GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we- > > wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with > > established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled > > use of multiple Unicode scripts. > > > Also see Additional Notes V and VI. > > > > > > 16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of > Unicode > > > scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must > > > not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code > > > points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly > > > defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional > Note IV. > > > > > > Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, > > > the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without > > > changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as > > > per the details > > > below: > > > > > > 1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG > > > discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in > > > Guideline 16. > > > 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be > > ambiguous > > > and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as > > > defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the > > > original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. > > > 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing > > system > > > uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the > > > WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes > > > "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As > > > the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed > > > that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the > guideline. > > > 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a > > known > > > case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes > > > that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. > > > Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen > > > to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively > > > these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the > Additional > > > Notes > > V > > > and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode > > > script"-mixing in Japanese writing system. > > > > > > Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call > > > for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically > > > for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed > > > cross-script > > cases. > > > Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these > > > guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional > > > mechanisms for this purpose. > > > > > > We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried > > > to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any > > > further input or concerns. > > > > > > Regards, > > > IDN Guidelines WG > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM > > > To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> > > > Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan > > > Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> > > > Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > > > > > Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, > > > (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan) > > > > > > On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN > > > implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in > > > the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For > > > these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from > you. > > > > > > Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the > > > IDN Guidelines" > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n > > > ew > > > s_anno > > > uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb > > > PS > > > S6sJms > > > 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW > > > 1P > > > mY1jJ5 > > > LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ > > > Le > > > g&e= > > > was published. > > > > > > It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior > > > correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March. > > > > > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., > Ltd. > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 > > > yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote: > > > > Dear IDN guidelines working group, > > > > > > > > Please refer to the following comments and proposal. > > > > The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your > > > > suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan. > > > > > > > > In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by > > > > Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room. > > > > > > > > I hope this may be of help to you. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Summary] > > > > > > > > 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually > confusable > > > > characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of > > > > multiple scripts. > > > > > > > > We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases > > > > stated in Guideline#15. > > > > Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a > > > > commingled manner based on established orthographies and > > > > conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in > > > > single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective > > > > set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE > > > > script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English > > > > writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE > > > > script. > > > > > > > > Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is > > > > allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same > > > > as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain > > > > labels. > > > > > > > > 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable > > > > characters are described. We think they are the good notes because > > > > the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed. > > > > > > > > Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable > > > > characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and > > > > in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think > > > > the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in > > > > guideline#16. > > > > > > > > [Suggestion] > > > > > > > > We would like to propose as follows. > > > > > > > > - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to > > > > a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section > > > > is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters". > > > > > > > > - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > 16. > > > > Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single > > > > set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly > > > > define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion > > > > between domain names. 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-- Kal Feher @kalfeher
I think we still owe Yoshitaka a reply, unless one has gone out that I have missed. On 1/8/18 9:44 pm, Kal Feher wrote:
I'd like to understand what exactly this group can and should do going forward with the guidelines at this stage?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Kal
On 31/7/18 10:03 pm, Mats Dufberg wrote:
[Internal message, Yoshitaka Okuno not included.]
After reading the message Yoshitaka Okuno(1) I have the following reflections and questions:
He states regarding example in 2 below:
"These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people."
Does he then mean people outside the Japanese community?
"But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion."
Does he mean that people from the Japanese community will have no problem to differentiate between the two phrases? Or does he mean that the two phrases are usually used in two different contexts so that no real confusion happens?
In whose eyes should the "visual similarity" sit?
Mats
(1) As far as I can see, Yoshitaka is a male's name and therefore "he", "his".
--- Mats Dufberg DNS Specialist, IIS Mobile: +46 73 065 3899 https://www.iis.se/en/ -----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2018 at 09:27 To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>, idngwg <idngwg@icann.org> Cc: "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines. To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows. We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method. As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. should confusable labels be blocked? Please see the following examples. "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime" These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No". Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling. > > Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up > query. > > Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the > integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR. > > Regards > Sarmad > > > ----------- > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at > multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS. > > Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, > Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. > Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated > Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji > (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the Japanese > writing system. > > Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases > allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the > Japanese writing system as well. > > Regards, > IDN Guidelines WG > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> > Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; > idngwg@icann.org > Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, > > I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM > filter. > > Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members. > > We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of > "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the > guidelines. > > === > Guideline 15: > For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han > scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, > Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a > single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... > === > > We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of > different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state > this concept in the guidelines. > > We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with > Integration Panel members. > > Thanks and Regards, > > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > PS. > We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in > applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is > needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later. > > Best Regards, > ---- > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > > On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 > Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > Thank you for your response. > > > > This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response > > below has been shared with the IDNGWG members. > > > > Regards, > > Sarmad > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM > > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> > > Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana > > <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org > > Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > > > Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, > > > > Thank you for your response. > > > > We summarized our understanding as below. > > > > Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad > > could forward it to IDNGWG. > > > > We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the > > Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments. > > > > We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as > > "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16. > > > > Thanks again for your assistance. > > > > Best Regards, > > ---- > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > > > > > > > On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 > > Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > > > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > > > Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group > > (IDNGWG). > > > > > > Regards, > > > Sarmad > > > ============= > > > > > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., > Ltd. > > > > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > > > Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the > > > continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple > > > WG meetings and the means to address it. > > > > > > Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version > > > 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of > > > the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r > > > es > > > > > ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3P > > Jp6wrc > > rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mx > > d028M4 > > &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhED > > -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states: > > > > > > 5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the > > > same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script > > > Names > > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > > > _r > > > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r > > > =K > > > TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm > > > _V > > > g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. > > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with > > established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled > > use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually > > confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to > > co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a > > corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined." > > > > > > For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has > > > been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, > > > while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline: > > > > > > 15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from > the > > > same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: > > > Unicode Script Property > > > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > > > _r > > > > > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K > > TETvEa > > GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we- > > wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with > > established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled > > use of multiple Unicode scripts. > > > Also see Additional Notes V and VI. > > > > > > 16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of > Unicode > > > scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must > > > not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code > > > points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly > > > defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional > Note IV. > > > > > > Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, > > > the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without > > > changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as > > > per the details > > > below: > > > > > > 1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG > > > discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in > > > Guideline 16. > > > 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be > > ambiguous > > > and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as > > > defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the > > > original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. > > > 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing > > system > > > uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the > > > WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes > > > "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As > > > the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed > > > that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the > guideline. > > > 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a > > known > > > case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes > > > that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. > > > Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen > > > to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively > > > these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the > Additional > > > Notes > > V > > > and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode > > > script"-mixing in Japanese writing system. > > > > > > Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call > > > for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically > > > for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed > > > cross-script > > cases. > > > Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these > > > guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional > > > mechanisms for this purpose. > > > > > > We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried > > > to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any > > > further input or concerns. > > > > > > Regards, > > > IDN Guidelines WG > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM > > > To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> > > > Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan > > > Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> > > > Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > > > > > Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, > > > (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan) > > > > > > On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN > > > implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in > > > the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For > > > these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from > you. > > > > > > Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the > > > IDN Guidelines" > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n > > > ew > > > s_anno > > > uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb > > > PS > > > S6sJms > > > 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW > > > 1P > > > mY1jJ5 > > > LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ > > > Le > > > g&e= > > > was published. > > > > > > It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior > > > correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March. > > > > > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., > Ltd. > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 > > > yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote: > > > > Dear IDN guidelines working group, > > > > > > > > Please refer to the following comments and proposal. > > > > The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your > > > > suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan. > > > > > > > > In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by > > > > Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room. > > > > > > > > I hope this may be of help to you. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Summary] > > > > > > > > 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually > confusable > > > > characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of > > > > multiple scripts. > > > > > > > > We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases > > > > stated in Guideline#15. > > > > Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a > > > > commingled manner based on established orthographies and > > > > conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in > > > > single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective > > > > set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE > > > > script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English > > > > writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE > > > > script. > > > > > > > > Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is > > > > allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same > > > > as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain > > > > labels. > > > > > > > > 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable > > > > characters are described. We think they are the good notes because > > > > the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed. > > > > > > > > Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable > > > > characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and > > > > in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think > > > > the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in > > > > guideline#16. > > > > > > > > [Suggestion] > > > > > > > > We would like to propose as follows. > > > > > > > > - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to > > > > a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section > > > > is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters". > > > > > > > > - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > 16. > > > > Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single > > > > set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly > > > > define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion > > > > between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > - > > > > > > > > Thanks for your consideration. > > > > ---- > > > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services > > > > Co., Ltd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D3F66E.4DAD12E0 > > Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" > > Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > > Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" > > > > MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIK5D > > CCA9ow > > ggLCoAMCAQICEBnO/OtOViifQymetjGOKB8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwXzETMBEGCgmSJo > > mT8ixk > > ARkWA29yZzEVMBMGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWBWljYW5uMRIwEAYKCZImiZPyLGQBGRYCZHMxHT > > AbBgNV > > BAMTFGFkMS1sYXguZHMuaWNhbm4ub3JnMB4XDTE0MDcxMjAwMzkyMloXDTIwMDcxMTAwND > > kyMFow > > XzETMBEGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWA29yZzEVMBMGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWBWljYW5uMRIwEAYKCZ > > ImiZPy > > 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-- Kal Feher Melbourne, Australia
Dear All, There is no further discussion on this. Should I convert the following text by Kal in a response and share back with all of you for review. Do we need to add any further discussion?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Regards, Sarmad -----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Kal Feher Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:02 AM To: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you I think we still owe Yoshitaka a reply, unless one has gone out that I have missed. On 1/8/18 9:44 pm, Kal Feher wrote:
I'd like to understand what exactly this group can and should do going forward with the guidelines at this stage?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Kal
On 31/7/18 10:03 pm, Mats Dufberg wrote:
[Internal message, Yoshitaka Okuno not included.]
After reading the message Yoshitaka Okuno(1) I have the following reflections and questions:
He states regarding example in 2 below:
"These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people."
Does he then mean people outside the Japanese community?
"But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion."
Does he mean that people from the Japanese community will have no problem to differentiate between the two phrases? Or does he mean that the two phrases are usually used in two different contexts so that no real confusion happens?
In whose eyes should the "visual similarity" sit?
Mats
(1) As far as I can see, Yoshitaka is a male's name and therefore "he", "his".
--- Mats Dufberg DNS Specialist, IIS Mobile: +46 73 065 3899 https://www.iis.se/en/
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2018 at 09:27 To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>, idngwg <idngwg@icann.org> Cc: "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines. To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows. We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- - 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method. As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues?
--------------------------------------------------------------------- - 2. should confusable labels be blocked? Please see the following examples. "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime" These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No". Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion?
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling. > > Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up > query. > > Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the > integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR. > > Regards > Sarmad > > > ----------- > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at > multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS. > > Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, > Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. > Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated > Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji > (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the Japanese > writing system. > > Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases > allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the > Japanese writing system as well. > > Regards, > IDN Guidelines WG > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> > Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; > idngwg@icann.org > Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, > > I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM > filter. > > Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members. > > We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of > "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the > guidelines. > > === > Guideline 15: > For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han > scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, > Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a > single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... > === > > We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of > different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state > this concept in the guidelines. > > We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with > Integration Panel members. > > Thanks and Regards, > > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > PS. > We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in > applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is > needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later. > > Best Regards, > ---- > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > > On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 > Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > Thank you for your response. > > > > This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response > > below has been shared with the IDNGWG members. > > > > Regards, > > Sarmad > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > > Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM > > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> > > Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana > > <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org > > Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > > > Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, > > > > Thank you for your response. > > > > We summarized our understanding as below. > > > > Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad > > could forward it to IDNGWG. > > > > We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the > > Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments. > > > > We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as > > "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16. > > > > Thanks again for your assistance. > > > > Best Regards, > > ---- > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > > > > > > > On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 > > Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > > > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > > > Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group > > (IDNGWG). > > > > > > Regards, > > > Sarmad > > > ============= > > > > > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., > Ltd. > > > > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > > > Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the > > > continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple > > > WG meetings and the means to address it. > > > > > > Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version > > > 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of > > > the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r > > > es > > > > > ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3 P > > Jp6wrc > > rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-m x > > d028M4 > > &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhE D > > -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states: > > > > > > 5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the > > > same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script > > > Names > > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > > > _r > > > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r > > > =K > > > TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm > > > _V > > > g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. > > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with > > established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled > > use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually > > confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to > > co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a > > corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined." > > > > > > For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has > > > been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, > > > while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline: > > > > > > 15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from > the > > > same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: > > > Unicode Script Property > > > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > > > _r > > > > > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r= K > > TETvEa > > GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we - > > wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with > > established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled > > use of multiple Unicode scripts. > > > Also see Additional Notes V and VI. > > > > > > 16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of > Unicode > > > scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must > > > not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code > > > points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly > > > defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional > Note IV. > > > > > > Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, > > > the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without > > > changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as > > > per the details > > > below: > > > > > > 1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG > > > discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in > > > Guideline 16. > > > 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be > > ambiguous > > > and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as > > > defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the > > > original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. > > > 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing > > system > > > uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the > > > WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes > > > "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As > > > the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed > > > that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the > guideline. > > > 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a > > known > > > case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes > > > that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. > > > Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen > > > to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively > > > these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the > Additional > > > Notes > > V > > > and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode > > > script"-mixing in Japanese writing system. > > > > > > Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call > > > for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically > > > for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed > > > cross-script > > cases. > > > Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these > > > guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional > > > mechanisms for this purpose. > > > > > > We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried > > > to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any > > > further input or concerns. > > > > > > Regards, > > > IDN Guidelines WG > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > > > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM > > > To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> > > > Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan > > > Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> > > > Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > > > > > Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, > > > (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan) > > > > > > On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN > > > implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in > > > the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For > > > these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from > you. > > > > > > Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the > > > IDN Guidelines" > > > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n > > > ew > > > s_anno > > > uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb > > > PS > > > S6sJms > > > 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW > > > 1P > > > mY1jJ5 > > > LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ > > > Le > > > g&e= > > > was published. > > > > > > It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior > > > correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March. > > > > > > Yoshitaka Okuno > > > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., > Ltd. > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 > > > yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote: > > > > Dear IDN guidelines working group, > > > > > > > > Please refer to the following comments and proposal. > > > > The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your > > > > suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan. > > > > > > > > In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by > > > > Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room. > > > > > > > > I hope this may be of help to you. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Summary] > > > > > > > > 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually > confusable > > > > characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of > > > > multiple scripts. > > > > > > > > We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases > > > > stated in Guideline#15. > > > > Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a > > > > commingled manner based on established orthographies and > > > > conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in > > > > single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective > > > > set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE > > > > script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English > > > > writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE > > > > script. > > > > > > > > Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is > > > > allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same > > > > as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain > > > > labels. > > > > > > > > 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable > > > > characters are described. We think they are the good notes because > > > > the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed. > > > > > > > > Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable > > > > characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and > > > > in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think > > > > the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in > > > > guideline#16. > > > > > > > > [Suggestion] > > > > > > > > We would like to propose as follows. > > > > > > > > - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to > > > > a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section > > > > is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters". > > > > > > > > - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > 16. > > > > Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single > > > > set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly > > > > define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion > > > > between domain names. 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------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D3F66E.4DAD12E0-- > > _______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
-- Kal Feher Melbourne, Australia
Dear all, I apologize for coming late to this (I was off for a few weeks due to holidays) I agree with Kal’s view point, so support using that as a next response to Yoshitaka-san. Dennis Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2018, at 2:49 AM, Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear All,
There is no further discussion on this. Should I convert the following text by Kal in a response and share back with all of you for review. Do we need to add any further discussion?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Kal Feher Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:02 AM To: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
I think we still owe Yoshitaka a reply, unless one has gone out that I have missed.
On 1/8/18 9:44 pm, Kal Feher wrote: I'd like to understand what exactly this group can and should do going > forward with the guidelines at this stage?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Kal
On 31/7/18 10:03 pm, Mats Dufberg wrote: [Internal message, Yoshitaka Okuno not included.]
After reading the message Yoshitaka Okuno(1) I have the following reflections and questions:
He states regarding example in 2 below:
"These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people."
Does he then mean people outside the Japanese community?
"But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion."
Does he mean that people from the Japanese community will have no problem to differentiate between the two phrases? Or does he mean that the two phrases are usually used in two different contexts so that no real confusion happens?
In whose eyes should the "visual similarity" sit?
Mats
(1) As far as I can see, Yoshitaka is a male's name and therefore "he", "his".
--- Mats Dufberg DNS Specialist, IIS Mobile: +46 73 065 3899 https://www.iis.se/en/
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2018 at 09:27 To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>, idngwg <idngwg@icann.org> Cc: "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines. To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows. We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- - 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters >> to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method. As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and >> Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced >> out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and >> the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues?
--------------------------------------------------------------------- - 2. should confusable labels be blocked? Please see the following examples. "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime" These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No". Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion?
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling.
Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up query.
Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR.
Regards Sarmad
----------- Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the >> Japanese writing system.
Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the Japanese writing system as well.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of >> my SPAM filter.
Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand >> the guidelines.
=== Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... ===
We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and >> "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines.
We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members.
Thanks and Regards,
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r
es
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3>> P
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rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-m x
d028M4
&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhE>> D
-qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be
taken from the
same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org
_r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r
=K
TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm
_V
g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>.>> > > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages >> with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, >> visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this
guideline has
been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be >> taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property
(https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org
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eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=>> K
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GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services >> Co., Ltd. On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: -
wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to >> UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the >> WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both >> these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it >> has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you >> have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines"
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n
ew s_anno
uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb
PS S6sJms
7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW
1P mY1jJ5
LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ
Le g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote: > Dear IDN guidelines working group, > > Please refer to the following comments and proposal. > The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your > suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan. > > In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by > Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room. > > I hope this may be of help to you. > > > [Summary] > > 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable > characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of > multiple scripts. > > We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases > stated in Guideline#15. > Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a > commingled manner based on established orthographies and > conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in > single words. This means Japanese people consider the >> collective > set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE > script in constituting Japanese words, just as native >> English > writers/readers consider English characters to belong >> to ONE > script. > > Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE >> scripts is > allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should >> be the same > as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain > labels. > > 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable > characters are described. We think they are the good notes because > the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed. > > Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable > characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and > in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think > the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in > guideline#16. > > [Suggestion] > > We would like to propose as follows. > > - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to > a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The >> new section > is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters". > > - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. >
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> 16. > Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single > set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly > define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion > between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV. > >
> - > > Thanks for your consideration. > ---- > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services > Co., Ltd. > >
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------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D3F66E.4DAD12E0--
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
-- Kal Feher Melbourne, Australia
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
Dear IDNGWG members, Please find below the suggested response, for your review and finalization. Regards, Sarmad ===== Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, Even though the guidelines have been finalized by the IDN Guidelines WG and published, the WG appreciates the input from JPRS. In the context of your comment regarding Guideline 16, please note that the guideline empowers the registry to manage the cases of confusable labels. The guideline only requires the registry to identify such cases (if any) and devise a policy to address it. Therefore, for example, it allows for the registries to resolve such cases of confusable registrations via the Dispute Resolution Process (DRP), as you suggest. We hope this clarifies the guideline. Regards, IDN Guidelines WG -----Original Message----- From: Tan Tanaka, Dennis <dtantanaka@verisign.com> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 7:26 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear all, I apologize for coming late to this (I was off for a few weeks due to holidays) I agree with Kal’s view point, so support using that as a next response to Yoshitaka-san. Dennis Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2018, at 2:49 AM, Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear All,
There is no further discussion on this. Should I convert the following text by Kal in a response and share back with all of you for review. Do we need to add any further discussion?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Kal Feher Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:02 AM To: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
I think we still owe Yoshitaka a reply, unless one has gone out that I have missed.
On 1/8/18 9:44 pm, Kal Feher wrote: I'd like to understand what exactly this group can and should do going > forward with the guidelines at this stage?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Kal
On 31/7/18 10:03 pm, Mats Dufberg wrote: [Internal message, Yoshitaka Okuno not included.]
After reading the message Yoshitaka Okuno(1) I have the following reflections and questions:
He states regarding example in 2 below:
"These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people."
Does he then mean people outside the Japanese community?
"But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion."
Does he mean that people from the Japanese community will have no problem to differentiate between the two phrases? Or does he mean that the two phrases are usually used in two different contexts so that no real confusion happens?
In whose eyes should the "visual similarity" sit?
Mats
(1) As far as I can see, Yoshitaka is a male's name and therefore "he", "his".
--- Mats Dufberg DNS Specialist, IIS Mobile: +46 73 065 3899 https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.iis.se_en_& d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwP cawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=joKA2xTDMoVh7AEsz0PcrKZCSZs53w_o3 BW4x_jsCpw&s=ySyXGvIe3ap_ZQi_N1Fi9C-j3iDORSgXf1xwCf5ZFh0&e=
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2018 at 09:27 To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>, idngwg <idngwg@icann.org> Cc: "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines. To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows. We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- - - 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters >> to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method. As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and >> Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced >> out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and >> the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues?
-------------------------------------------------------------------- - - 2. should confusable labels be blocked? Please see the following examples. "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime" These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No". Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion?
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling.
Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up query.
Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR.
Regards Sarmad
----------- Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the >> Japanese writing system.
Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the Japanese writing system as well.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of >> my SPAM filter.
Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand >> the guidelines.
=== Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... ===
We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and >> "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines.
We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members.
Thanks and Regards,
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r
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ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u 3>> P
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-qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be
taken from the
same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org
_r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r
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g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>.>> > > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages >> with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, >> visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this
guideline has
been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be >> taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property
(https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org
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--------------------------------------------------------------------- Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services >> Co., Ltd. On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: -
wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to >> UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the >> WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both >> these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it >> has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you >> have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines"
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n
ew s_anno
uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb
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Le g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote: > Dear IDN guidelines working group, > > Please refer to the following comments and proposal. > The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your > suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan. > > In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by > Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room. > > I hope this may be of help to you. > > > [Summary] > > 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable > characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of > multiple scripts. > > We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases > stated in Guideline#15. > Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a > commingled manner based on established orthographies and > conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in > single words. This means Japanese people consider the >> collective > set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE > script in constituting Japanese words, just as native >> English > writers/readers consider English characters to belong >> to ONE > script. > > Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE >> scripts is > allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should >> be the same > as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain > labels. > > 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable > characters are described. We think they are the good notes because > the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed. > > Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable > characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and > in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think > the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in > guideline#16. > > [Suggestion] > > We would like to propose as follows. > > - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to > a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The >> new section > is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters". > > - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. >
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> 16. > Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single > set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly > define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion > between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV. > >
> - > > Thanks for your consideration. > ---- > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services > Co., Ltd. > >
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------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D3F66E.4DAD12E0--
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
-- Kal Feher Melbourne, Australia
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
Looks good. Edmon -----Original Message----- From: Idngwg [mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Sarmad Hussain Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 8:00 PM To: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear IDNGWG members, Please find below the suggested response, for your review and finalization. Regards, Sarmad ===== Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, Even though the guidelines have been finalized by the IDN Guidelines WG and published, the WG appreciates the input from JPRS. In the context of your comment regarding Guideline 16, please note that the guideline empowers the registry to manage the cases of confusable labels. The guideline only requires the registry to identify such cases (if any) and devise a policy to address it. Therefore, for example, it allows for the registries to resolve such cases of confusable registrations via the Dispute Resolution Process (DRP), as you suggest. We hope this clarifies the guideline. Regards, IDN Guidelines WG -----Original Message----- From: Tan Tanaka, Dennis <dtantanaka@verisign.com> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 7:26 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear all, I apologize for coming late to this (I was off for a few weeks due to holidays) I agree with Kal’s view point, so support using that as a next response to Yoshitaka-san. Dennis Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2018, at 2:49 AM, Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear All,
There is no further discussion on this. Should I convert the following text by Kal in a response and share back with all of you for review. Do we need to add any further discussion?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Kal Feher Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:02 AM To: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
I think we still owe Yoshitaka a reply, unless one has gone out that I have missed.
On 1/8/18 9:44 pm, Kal Feher wrote: I'd like to understand what exactly this group can and should do going > forward with the guidelines at this stage?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Kal
On 31/7/18 10:03 pm, Mats Dufberg wrote: [Internal message, Yoshitaka Okuno not included.]
After reading the message Yoshitaka Okuno(1) I have the following reflections and questions:
He states regarding example in 2 below:
"These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people."
Does he then mean people outside the Japanese community?
"But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion."
Does he mean that people from the Japanese community will have no problem to differentiate between the two phrases? Or does he mean that the two phrases are usually used in two different contexts so that no real confusion happens?
In whose eyes should the "visual similarity" sit?
Mats
(1) As far as I can see, Yoshitaka is a male's name and therefore "he", "his".
--- Mats Dufberg DNS Specialist, IIS Mobile: +46 73 065 3899 https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.iis.se_en_& d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwP cawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=joKA2xTDMoVh7AEsz0PcrKZCSZs53w_o3 BW4x_jsCpw&s=ySyXGvIe3ap_ZQi_N1Fi9C-j3iDORSgXf1xwCf5ZFh0&e=
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2018 at 09:27 To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>, idngwg <idngwg@icann.org> Cc: "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines. To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows. We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- - - 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters >> to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method. As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and >> Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced >> out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and >> the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues?
-------------------------------------------------------------------- - - 2. should confusable labels be blocked? Please see the following examples. "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime" These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No". Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion?
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling.
Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up query.
Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR.
Regards Sarmad
----------- Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the >> Japanese writing system.
Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the Japanese writing system as well.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of >> my SPAM filter.
Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand >> the guidelines.
=== Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... ===
We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and >> "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines.
We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members.
Thanks and Regards,
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r
es
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u 3>> P
Jp6wrc
rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm- m x
d028M4
&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dh E>> D
-qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be
taken from the
same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org
_r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r
=K
TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm
_V
g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>.>> > > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages >> with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, >> visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this
guideline has
been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be >> taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property
(https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org
_r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r =>> K
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GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71w e
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services >> Co., Ltd. On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: -
wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to >> UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the >> WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both >> these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it >> has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you >> have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines"
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n
ew s_anno
uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb
PS S6sJms
7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW
1P mY1jJ5
LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ
Le g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote: > Dear IDN guidelines working group, > > Please refer to the following comments and proposal. > The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your > suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan. > > In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by > Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room. > > I hope this may be of help to you. > > > [Summary] > > 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable > characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of > multiple scripts. > > We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases > stated in Guideline#15. > Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a > commingled manner based on established orthographies and > conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in > single words. This means Japanese people consider the >> collective > set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE > script in constituting Japanese words, just as native >> English > writers/readers consider English characters to belong >> to ONE > script. > > Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE >> scripts is > allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should >> be the same > as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain > labels. > > 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable > characters are described. We think they are the good notes because > the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed. > > Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable > characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and > in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think > the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in > guideline#16. > > [Suggestion] > > We would like to propose as follows. > > - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to > a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The >> new section > is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters". > > - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. >
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> 16. > Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single > set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly > define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion > between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV. > >
> - > > Thanks for your consideration. > ---- > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services > Co., Ltd. > >
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------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D3F66E.4DAD12E0--
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
-- Kal Feher Melbourne, Australia
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
Thank you Edmon. Dear All, Please let me know if you have any further feedback on the response. It would be great if you can respond by this Thursday. I will incorporate any further comments and respond to JPRS accordingly on Friday. Regards, Sarmad -----Original Message----- From: Edmon <edmon@registry.asia> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 5:09 PM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you Looks good. Edmon -----Original Message----- From: Idngwg [mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Sarmad Hussain Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 8:00 PM To: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear IDNGWG members, Please find below the suggested response, for your review and finalization. Regards, Sarmad ===== Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, Even though the guidelines have been finalized by the IDN Guidelines WG and published, the WG appreciates the input from JPRS. In the context of your comment regarding Guideline 16, please note that the guideline empowers the registry to manage the cases of confusable labels. The guideline only requires the registry to identify such cases (if any) and devise a policy to address it. Therefore, for example, it allows for the registries to resolve such cases of confusable registrations via the Dispute Resolution Process (DRP), as you suggest. We hope this clarifies the guideline. Regards, IDN Guidelines WG -----Original Message----- From: Tan Tanaka, Dennis <dtantanaka@verisign.com> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 7:26 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear all, I apologize for coming late to this (I was off for a few weeks due to holidays) I agree with Kal’s view point, so support using that as a next response to Yoshitaka-san. Dennis Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2018, at 2:49 AM, Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear All,
There is no further discussion on this. Should I convert the following text by Kal in a response and share back with all of you for review. Do we need to add any further discussion?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Kal Feher Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:02 AM To: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
I think we still owe Yoshitaka a reply, unless one has gone out that I have missed.
On 1/8/18 9:44 pm, Kal Feher wrote: I'd like to understand what exactly this group can and should do going > forward with the guidelines at this stage?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Kal
On 31/7/18 10:03 pm, Mats Dufberg wrote: [Internal message, Yoshitaka Okuno not included.]
After reading the message Yoshitaka Okuno(1) I have the following reflections and questions:
He states regarding example in 2 below:
"These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people."
Does he then mean people outside the Japanese community?
"But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion."
Does he mean that people from the Japanese community will have no problem to differentiate between the two phrases? Or does he mean that the two phrases are usually used in two different contexts so that no real confusion happens?
In whose eyes should the "visual similarity" sit?
Mats
(1) As far as I can see, Yoshitaka is a male's name and therefore "he", "his".
--- Mats Dufberg DNS Specialist, IIS Mobile: +46 73 065 3899 https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.iis.se_en_& d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwP cawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=joKA2xTDMoVh7AEsz0PcrKZCSZs53w_o3 BW4x_jsCpw&s=ySyXGvIe3ap_ZQi_N1Fi9C-j3iDORSgXf1xwCf5ZFh0&e=
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2018 at 09:27 To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>, idngwg <idngwg@icann.org> Cc: "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines. To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows. We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- - - 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters >> to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method. As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and >> Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced >> out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and >> the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues?
-------------------------------------------------------------------- - - 2. should confusable labels be blocked? Please see the following examples. "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime" These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No". Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion?
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling.
Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up query.
Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR.
Regards Sarmad
----------- Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the >> Japanese writing system.
Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the Japanese writing system as well.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of >> my SPAM filter.
Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand >> the guidelines.
=== Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... ===
We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and >> "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines.
We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members.
Thanks and Regards,
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r
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ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u 3>> P
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-qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be
taken from the
same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names
<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org
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eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r
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g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>.>> > > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages >> with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, >> visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this
guideline has
been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be >> taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property
(https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org
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eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r =>> K
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--------------------------------------------------------------------- Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services >> Co., Ltd. On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: -
wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to >> UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the >> WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both >> these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it >> has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you >> have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines"
https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n
ew s_anno
uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb
PS S6sJms
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LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ
Le g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote: > Dear IDN guidelines working group, > > Please refer to the following comments and proposal. > The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your > suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan. > > In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by > Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room. > > I hope this may be of help to you. > > > [Summary] > > 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable > characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of > multiple scripts. > > We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases > stated in Guideline#15. > Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a > commingled manner based on established orthographies and > conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in > single words. This means Japanese people consider the >> collective > set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE > script in constituting Japanese words, just as native >> English > writers/readers consider English characters to belong >> to ONE > script. > > Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE >> scripts is > allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should >> be the same > as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain > labels. > > 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable > characters are described. We think they are the good notes because > the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed. > > Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable > characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and > in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think > the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in > guideline#16. > > [Suggestion] > > We would like to propose as follows. > > - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to > a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The >> new section > is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters". > > - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. >
-------------------------------------------------------------------
> 16. > Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single > set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly > define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion > between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV. > >
> - > > Thanks for your consideration. > ---- > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services > Co., Ltd. > >
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_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
-- Kal Feher Melbourne, Australia
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
I'm fine with the response. On 21/8/18 6:21 pm, Sarmad Hussain wrote:
Thank you Edmon.
Dear All,
Please let me know if you have any further feedback on the response. It would be great if you can respond by this Thursday.
I will incorporate any further comments and respond to JPRS accordingly on Friday.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: Edmon <edmon@registry.asia> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 5:09 PM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Looks good. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg [mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Sarmad Hussain Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 8:00 PM To: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG members,
Please find below the suggested response, for your review and finalization.
Regards, Sarmad
=====
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Even though the guidelines have been finalized by the IDN Guidelines WG and published, the WG appreciates the input from JPRS.
In the context of your comment regarding Guideline 16, please note that the guideline empowers the registry to manage the cases of confusable labels. The guideline only requires the registry to identify such cases (if any) and devise a policy to address it. Therefore, for example, it allows for the registries to resolve such cases of confusable registrations via the Dispute Resolution Process (DRP), as you suggest.
We hope this clarifies the guideline.
Regards,
IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: Tan Tanaka, Dennis <dtantanaka@verisign.com> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 7:26 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear all,
I apologize for coming late to this (I was off for a few weeks due to holidays)
I agree with Kal’s view point, so support using that as a next response to Yoshitaka-san.
Dennis
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2018, at 2:49 AM, Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear All,
There is no further discussion on this. Should I convert the following text by Kal in a response and share back with all of you for review. Do we need to add any further discussion?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish. Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Kal Feher Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:02 AM To: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
I think we still owe Yoshitaka a reply, unless one has gone out that I have missed.
On 1/8/18 9:44 pm, Kal Feher wrote: I'd like to understand what exactly this group can and should do going > forward with the guidelines at this stage?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Kal
On 31/7/18 10:03 pm, Mats Dufberg wrote: [Internal message, Yoshitaka Okuno not included.]
After reading the message Yoshitaka Okuno(1) I have the following reflections and questions:
He states regarding example in 2 below:
"These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people."
Does he then mean people outside the Japanese community?
"But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion."
Does he mean that people from the Japanese community will have no problem to differentiate between the two phrases? Or does he mean that the two phrases are usually used in two different contexts so that no real confusion happens?
In whose eyes should the "visual similarity" sit?
Mats
(1) As far as I can see, Yoshitaka is a male's name and therefore "he", "his".
--- Mats Dufberg DNS Specialist, IIS Mobile: +46 73 065 3899 https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.iis.se_en_& d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwP cawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=joKA2xTDMoVh7AEsz0PcrKZCSZs53w_o3 BW4x_jsCpw&s=ySyXGvIe3ap_ZQi_N1Fi9C-j3iDORSgXf1xwCf5ZFh0&e=
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2018 at 09:27 To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>, idngwg <idngwg@icann.org> Cc: "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines. To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows. We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- - - 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters >> to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method. As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and >> Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced >> out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and >> the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues?
-------------------------------------------------------------------- - - 2. should confusable labels be blocked? Please see the following examples. "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime" These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No". Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion?
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling. Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up query.
Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR. Regards Sarmad
----------- Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the >> Japanese writing system.
Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the Japanese writing system as well.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of >> my SPAM filter.
Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand >> the guidelines.
=== Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... ===
We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and >> "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines.
We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members.
Thanks and Regards,
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG). > Regards, > Sarmad > ============= > > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the > continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple > WG meetings and the means to address it. > > Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version > 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of > the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r > es > ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u 3>> P Jp6wrc
rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm- m x
d028M4
&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dh E>> D
-qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states: > 5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the > same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script > Names > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > _r > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r > =K > TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm > _V > g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>.>> > > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages >> with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, >> visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined." > For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has > been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, > while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline: > 15. All code points in a single IDN label must be >> taken from the > same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: > Unicode Script Property > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > _r > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r =>> K TETvEa
GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71w e
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services >> Co., Ltd. On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: -
wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts. > Also see Additional Notes V and VI. > > 16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode > scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must > not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code > points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly > defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV. > Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, > the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without > changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as > per the details > below: > > 1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG > discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in > Guideline 16. > 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous > and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as > defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the > original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to >> UTR 24. > 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system > uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the > WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes > "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As > the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the >> WG > agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. > 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known > case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes > that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. > Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen > to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively > these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional > Notes V > and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode > script"-mixing in Japanese writing system. > > Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call > for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically > for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed > cross-script cases. > Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both >> > these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional > mechanisms for this purpose. > > We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it >> has > tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you >>> have any further input or concerns. > Regards, > IDN Guidelines WG > > > -----Original Message----- > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM > To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> > Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan > Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> > Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, > (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan) > > On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN > implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in > the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For > these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you. > Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the > IDN Guidelines" > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n > ew > s_anno > uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb > PS > S6sJms > 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW > 1P > mY1jJ5 > LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ > Le > g&e= > was published. > > It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior > correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March. > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote: >> Dear IDN guidelines working group, >> >> Please refer to the following comments and proposal. >> The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your >> suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan. >> In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by >> Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room. >> >> I hope this may be of help to you. >> >> >> [Summary] >> >> 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable >> characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of >> multiple scripts. >> >> We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases >> stated in Guideline#15. >> Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a >> commingled manner based on established orthographies and >> conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in >> single words. This means Japanese people consider the >> collective >> set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE >> script in constituting Japanese words, just as native >> English >> writers/readers consider English characters to belong >> to ONE >> script. >> >> Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE >> scripts is >> allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should >> be the same >> as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain >> labels. >> >> 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable >> characters are described. We think they are the good notes because >> the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed. >> Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable >> characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and >> in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think >> the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in >> guideline#16. >> >> [Suggestion] >> >> We would like to propose as follows. >> >> - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to >> a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The >> new section >> is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters". >> >> - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. >>
>> 16. >> Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single >> set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly >> define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion >> between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV. >> >>
>> - >> >> Thanks for your consideration. >> ---- >> Yoshitaka Okuno >> Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services >> Co., Ltd. >> >> > >
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_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg -- Kal Feher Melbourne, Australia
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
-- Kal Feher Melbourne, Australia
I'm also fine with this response. satish On Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 14:48 Kal Feher <icann@feherfamily.org> wrote: > I'm fine with the response. > > On 21/8/18 6:21 pm, Sarmad Hussain wrote: > > Thank you Edmon. > > > > Dear All, > > > > Please let me know if you have any further feedback on the response. It > would be great if you can respond by this Thursday. > > > > I will incorporate any further comments and respond to JPRS accordingly > on Friday. > > > > Regards, > > Sarmad > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Edmon <edmon@registry.asia> > > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 5:09 PM > > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org > > Subject: RE: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > > > Looks good. > > Edmon > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Idngwg [mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Sarmad > Hussain > > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 8:00 PM > > To: idngwg@icann.org > > Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > > > Dear IDNGWG members, > > > > Please find below the suggested response, for your review and > finalization. > > > > Regards, > > Sarmad > > > > ===== > > > > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > > > Even though the guidelines have been finalized by the IDN Guidelines WG > and published, the WG appreciates the input from JPRS. > > > > In the context of your comment regarding Guideline 16, please note that > the guideline empowers the registry to manage the cases of confusable > labels. The guideline only requires the registry to identify such cases > (if any) and devise a policy to address it. Therefore, for example, it > allows for the registries to resolve such cases of confusable registrations > via the Dispute Resolution Process (DRP), as you suggest. > > > > We hope this clarifies the guideline. > > > > Regards, > > > > IDN Guidelines WG > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tan Tanaka, Dennis <dtantanaka@verisign.com> > > Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 7:26 AM > > To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> > > Cc: idngwg@icann.org > > Subject: Re: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > > > Dear all, > > > > I apologize for coming late to this (I was off for a few weeks due to > holidays) > > > > I agree with Kal’s view point, so support using that as a next response > to Yoshitaka-san. > > > > Dennis > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Aug 18, 2018, at 2:49 AM, Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> > wrote: > >> > >> Dear All, > >> > >> There is no further discussion on this. Should I convert the following > text by Kal in a response and share back with all of you for review. Do we > need to add any further discussion? > >> > >>> While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG. > >>> > >>> As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards > >>> permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. > >>> I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that > >>> exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, > >>> which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations > could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for > Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent > JPRS from doing exactly as they wish. > >> Regards, > >> Sarmad > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Kal Feher > >> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:02 AM > >> To: idngwg@icann.org > >> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you > >> > >> I think we still owe Yoshitaka a reply, unless one has gone out that I > have missed. > >> > >> > >>> On 1/8/18 9:44 pm, Kal Feher wrote: > >>> I'd like to understand what exactly this group can and should do going > > forward with the guidelines at this stage? > >>> > >>> While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG. > >>> > >>> As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards > >>> permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. > >>> I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that > >>> exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, > >>> which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations > could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for > Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent > JPRS from doing exactly as they wish. > >>> > >>> Kal > >>> > >>> > >>>> On 31/7/18 10:03 pm, Mats Dufberg wrote: > >>>> [Internal message, Yoshitaka Okuno not included.] > >>>> > >>>> After reading the message Yoshitaka Okuno(1) I have the following > >>>> reflections and questions: > >>>> > >>>> He states regarding example in 2 below: > >>>> > >>>> "These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people." > >>>> > >>>> Does he then mean people outside the Japanese community? > >>>> > >>>> "But these consist of totally different characters with different > >>>> reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think > >>>> both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. > >>>> Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion." > >>>> > >>>> Does he mean that people from the Japanese community will have no > >>>> problem to differentiate between the two phrases? Or does he mean > >>>> that the two phrases are usually used in two different contexts so > >>>> that no real confusion happens? > >>>> > >>>> In whose eyes should the "visual similarity" sit? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Mats > >>>> > >>>> (1) As far as I can see, Yoshitaka is a male's name and therefore > >>>> "he", "his". > >>>> > >>>> --- > >>>> Mats Dufberg > >>>> DNS Specialist, IIS > >>>> Mobile: +46 73 065 3899 > >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.iis.se_en_& > >>>> d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwP > >>>> cawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=joKA2xTDMoVh7AEsz0PcrKZCSZs53w_o3 > >>>> BW4x_jsCpw&s=ySyXGvIe3ap_ZQi_N1Fi9C-j3iDORSgXf1xwCf5ZFh0&e= > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of > >>>> "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> > >>>> Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2018 at 09:27 > >>>> To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>, idngwg > >>>> <idngwg@icann.org> > >>>> Cc: "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you > >>>> > >>>> Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, > >>>> Thank you for your confirmation. > >>>> We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. > >>>> We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN > >>>> Guidelines. > >>>> To understand your concept, we would like to show you some > >>>> typical > >>>> cases of Japanese language words as follows. > >>>> We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion > >>>> for each. > >>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> - > >>>> - > >>>> 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? > >>>> In defining a set of characters that can be used in > >>>> Japanese labels, > >>>> we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters > >> to > >>>> be used, leaving only one character, just because certain > >>>> characters > >>>> are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit > >>>> natural > >>>> expressions or daily-used input method. > >>>> As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and > >> Kanji > >>>> characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. > >>>> And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. > >>>> This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced > >> out of > >>>> repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with > >>>> "l"/"O". > >>>> In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and > >> the > >>>> applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of > >>>> "fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of > >>>> guidelines, > >>>> "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. > >>>> Therefore, our answer to the original question "should > >>>> confusable > >>>> characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". > >>>> Question for IDNGWG; > >>>> Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues? > >>>> > >>>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> - > >>>> - > >>>> 2. should confusable labels be blocked? > >>>> Please see the following examples. > >>>> "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" > >>>> "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of > >>>> Japanese > >>>> photographers "hani hajime" > >>>> These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. > >>>> But these consist of totally different characters with > >>>> different reading > >>>> and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both > >>>> words > >>>> should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. > >>>> Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. > >>>> If there should be any problems on their use, they should > >>>> be resolved > >>>> using DRP. > >>>> Therefore, our answer to the original question "should > >>>> confusable labels > >>>> be blocked?" is "No". > >>>> Questions for IDNGWG; > >>>> Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered > >>>> in the above > >>>> example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your > >>>> opinion? > >>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> Best Regards, > >>>> ---- > >>>> Yoshitaka Okuno > >>>> Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services > >> Co., Ltd. > >>>> On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 > >>>> Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > >>>>> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > >>>>> > >>>>> I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been > >>>> traveling. > >>>>> Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to > >>>> your follow-up > >>>>> query. > >>>>> > >>>>> Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment > >>>> for the > >>>>> integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the > >>>> Root Zone LGR. > >>>>> Regards > >>>>> Sarmad > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----------- > >>>>> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > >>>>> > >>>>> The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese > >>>> writing system at > >>>>> multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS. > >>>>> > >>>>> Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the > >>>> Unicode standard, > >>>>> Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji > >>>> (Han) scripts. > >>>>> Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. > >>>> But associated > >>>>> Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, > >>>> Katakana and Kanji > >>>>> (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the >> > >>>>> Japanese writing system. > >>>>> > >>>>> Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script > >>>> mixing cases > >>>>> allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be > >>>> applicable to the > >>>>> Japanese writing system as well. > >>>>> > >>>>> Regards, > >>>>> IDN Guidelines WG > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM > >>>>> To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> > >>>>> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana > >>>> <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; > >>>>> idngwg@icann.org > >>>>> Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > >>>>> > >>>>> Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, > >>>>> > >>>>> I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of >> > >>>>> my SPAM filter. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members. > >>>>> > >>>>> We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows > >>>> in item V of > >>>>> "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand >> > >>>>> the guidelines. > >>>>> > >>>>> === > >>>>> Guideline 15: > >>>>> For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, > >>>> Katakana and Han > >>>>> scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of > >>>> Hiragana, > >>>>> Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same > >>>> way as in a > >>>>> single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... > >>>>> === > >>>>> > >>>>> We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and >> > >>>>> "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we > >>>>> should > >>>> clearly state > >>>>> this concept in the guidelines. > >>>>> > >>>>> We hope that you would share our additional comment as above > >>>> with > >>>>> Integration Panel members. > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks and Regards, > >>>>> > >>>>> Yoshitaka Okuno > >>>>> Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry > >>>> Services Co., Ltd. > >>>>> PS. > >>>>> We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be > >>>> dealt with in > >>>>> applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such > >>>> treatment is > >>>>> needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later. > >>>>> > >>>>> Best Regards, > >>>>> ---- > >>>>> Yoshitaka Okuno > >>>>> Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry > >>>> Services Co., Ltd. > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 > >>>>> Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you for your response. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your > >>>> response > >>>>>> below has been shared with the IDNGWG members. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>> Sarmad > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>> From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > >>>>>> Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM > >>>>>> To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> > >>>>>> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana > >>>>>> <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org > >>>>>> Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thank you for your response. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We summarized our understanding as below. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if > >>>> Mr. Sarmad > >>>>>> could forward it to IDNGWG. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and > >>>> VI to the > >>>>>> Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> We have understood that Japanese language shall not be > >>>> considered as > >>>>>> "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Thanks again for your assistance. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Best Regards, > >>>>>> ---- > >>>>>> Yoshitaka Okuno > >>>>>> Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry > >>>> Services Co., Ltd. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain > >>>>>> <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines > >>>> Working Group > >>>>>> (IDNGWG). > >>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>> Sarmad > >>>>>>> ============= > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Yoshitaka Okuno > >>>>>>> Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry > >>>> Services Co., > >>>>> Ltd. > >>>>>>> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG > >>>> appreciates the > >>>>>>> continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at > >>>> multiple > >>>>>>> WG meetings and the means to address it. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed > >>>> version > >>>>>>> 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version > >>>> 3.0 of > >>>>>>> the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see > >>>>>>> > >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r > >>>>>>> es > >>>>>>> > >>>> ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u > >>>> 3>> P > >>>>>> Jp6wrc > >>>>>> > >>>> rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm- > >>>> m > >>>> x > >>>>>> d028M4 > >>>>>> > >>>> &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dh > >>>> E>> D > >>>>>> -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states: > >>>>>>> 5. “All code points in a single label will be > >>>> taken from the > >>>>>>> same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex > >>>> #24: Script > >>>>>>> Names > >>>>>>> > >>>> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > >>>>>>> _r > >>>>>>> > >>>> eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r > >>>>>>> =K > >>>>>>> > >>>> TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm > >>>>>>> _V > >>>>>>> > >>>> > g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>.>> > > > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages >> with > >>>>>> established orthographies and conventions that require the > >>>> commingled > >>>>>> use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, >> > >>>>>> visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be > >>>> allowed to > >>>>>> co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a > >>>>>> corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined." > >>>>>>> For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this > >>>> guideline has > >>>>>>> been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the > >>>> first part, > >>>>>>> while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing > >>>> guideline: > >>>>>>> 15. All code points in a single IDN label must be >> > taken from > >>>>> the > >>>>>>> same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard > >>>> Annex #24: > >>>>>>> Unicode Script Property > >>>>>>> > >>>> (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > >>>>>>> _r > >>>>>>> > >>>> eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r > >>>> =>> K > >>>>>> TETvEa > >>>>>> > >>>> GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71w > >>>> e > >>>> - > >>>>>> wvho7c > >>>> qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). > >>>>>> Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages > >>>> with > >>>>>> established orthographies and conventions that require the > >>>> commingled > >>>>>> use of multiple Unicode scripts. > >>>>>>> Also see Additional Notes V and VI. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing > >>>> mixing of > >>>>> Unicode > >>>>>>> scripts, visually confusable characters from different > >>>> scripts must > >>>>>>> not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible > >>>> code > >>>>>>> points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is > >>>> clearly > >>>>>>> defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also > >>>> see Additional > >>>>> Note IV. > >>>>>>> Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by > >>>> its members, > >>>>>>> the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications > >>>> without > >>>>>>> changing the intention of the original guideline in > >>>> version 3.0, as > >>>>>>> per the details > >>>>>>> below: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> 1. For referring to Japanese case and other > >>>> cases, the WG > >>>>>>> discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and > >>>> not in > >>>>>>> Guideline 16. > >>>>>>> 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” > >>>> may be > >>>>>> ambiguous > >>>>>>> and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode > >>>> script” as > >>>>>>> defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied > >>>> in the > >>>>>>> original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to >> UTR > 24. > >>>>>>> 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese > >>>> writing > >>>>>> system > >>>>>>> uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS > >>>> input, the > >>>>>>> WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case > >>>> which mixes > >>>>>>> "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by > >>>> default. As > >>>>>>> the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the >> WG > >>>>>>> agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the > >>>> text of the > >>>>> guideline. > >>>>>>> 4. Additional Note V was added to state that > >>>> Japanese is a > >>>>>> known > >>>>>>> case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. > >>>> It also notes > >>>>>>> that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix > >>>> “a-z” ASCII. > >>>>>>> Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits > >>>> and hyphen > >>>>>>> to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, > >>>> cumulatively > >>>>>>> these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the > >>>>> Additional > >>>>>>> Notes > >>>>>> V > >>>>>>> and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify > >>>> "Unicode > >>>>>>> script"-mixing in Japanese writing system. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Please also note that there are two separate guidelines > >>>> which call > >>>>>>> for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 > >>>> specifically > >>>>>>> for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for > >>>> allowed > >>>>>>> cross-script > >>>>>> cases. > >>>>>>> Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both >> > >>>>>>> these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest > >>>> additional > >>>>>>> mechanisms for this purpose. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it >> has > >>>>>>> tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you > >>>>>>>>> have any further input or concerns. > >>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>> IDN Guidelines WG > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>>>> From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] > >>>>>>> Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM > >>>>>>> To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> > >>>>>>> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan > >>>>>>> Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> > >>>>>>> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, > >>>>>>> (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN > >>>>>>> implementation guidelines document, following the > >>>> suggestion made in > >>>>>>> the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted > >>>> below). For > >>>>>>> these one and half months, I have not received any > >>>> response to that from > >>>>> you. > >>>>>>> Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. > >>>> 4.0 of the > >>>>>>> IDN Guidelines" > >>>>>>> > >>>> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n > >>>>>>> ew > >>>>>>> s_anno > >>>>>>> > >>>> uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb > >>>>>>> PS > >>>>>>> S6sJms > >>>>>>> > >>>> 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW > >>>>>>> 1P > >>>>>>> mY1jJ5 > >>>>>>> > >>>> LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ > >>>>>>> Le > >>>>>>> g&e= > >>>>>>> was published. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it > >>>> without prior > >>>>>>> correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 > >>>> March. > >>>>>>> Yoshitaka Okuno > >>>>>>> Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry > >>>> Services Co., > >>>>> Ltd. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote: > >>>>>>>> Dear IDN guidelines working group, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Please refer to the following comments and proposal. > >>>>>>>> The comments and proposal are being sent to you, > >>>> following your > >>>>>>>> suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting > >>>> in San Juan. > >>>>>>>> In the working group meeting, the essence was orally > >>>> stated by > >>>>>>>> Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I hope this may be of help to you. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [Summary] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of > >>>> visually > >>>>> confusable > >>>>>>>> characters are not specific to the cases with > >>>> commingled use of > >>>>>>>> multiple scripts. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the > >>>> exceptional cases > >>>>>>>> stated in Guideline#15. > >>>>>>>> Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used > >>>> in a > >>>>>>>> commingled manner based on established orthographies > >>>> and > >>>>>>>> conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed > >>>> even in > >>>>>>>> single words. This means Japanese people consider the >> > collective > >>>>>>>> set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to > >>>> belong to ONE > >>>>>>>> script in constituting Japanese words, just as native >> English > >>>>>>>> writers/readers consider English characters to belong >> to ONE > >>>>>>>> script. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE >> > scripts is > >>>>>>>> allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should >> be the > same > >>>>>>>> as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting > >>>> domain > >>>>>>>> labels. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually > >>>> confusable > >>>>>>>> characters are described. We think they are the good > >>>> notes because > >>>>>>>> the issues of visually confusable characters are > >>>> clearly pointed. > >>>>>>>> Taking into account the fact that issues of visually > >>>> confusable > >>>>>>>> characters reside both in the case of a single > >>>> UNICODE script and > >>>>>>>> in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are > >>>> allowed, we think > >>>>>>>> the sentence "must not be allowed to" is > >>>> overdescribed in > >>>>>>>> guideline#16. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> [Suggestion] > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> We would like to propose as follows. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and > >>>> is moved to > >>>>>>>> a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The >> new > section > >>>>>>>> is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters". > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. > >>>>>>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>>> 16. > >>>>>>>> Visually confusable characters had better not > >>>> co-exist in a single > >>>>>>>> set of permissible code points. TLD registries > >>>> should clearly > >>>>>>>> define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to > >>>> minimize confusion > >>>>>>>> between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------ > >>>>>>>> - > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks for your consideration. > >>>>>>>> ---- > >>>>>>>> Yoshitaka Okuno > >>>>>>>> Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry > >>>> Services > >>>>>>>> Co., Ltd. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D3F66E.4DAD12E0 > >>>>>> Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" > >>>>>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 > >>>>>> Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>> MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExCzAJBgUrDgMCGgUAMIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAQAAoIIK > >>>> 5 > >>>> D > >>>>>> CCA9ow > >>>>>> > >>>> ggLCoAMCAQICEBnO/OtOViifQymetjGOKB8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQAwXzETMBEGCgmS > >>>> J > >>>> o > >>>>>> mT8ixk > >>>>>> > >>>> ARkWA29yZzEVMBMGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWBWljYW5uMRIwEAYKCZImiZPyLGQBGRYCZHMx > >>>> H > >>>> T > >>>>>> AbBgNV > >>>>>> 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ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBAMeUJZWT2LHkkgUQ3PBYne3/nqJ2 > >>>> Q > >>>> 9 > >>>>>> o0N+41 > >>>>>> > >>>> SzEall6+A+7o8nU9ZLDgCkCobGmM+kdoEMqRZJ10HeiMDuJxLgEn6kWGXWp8U1vb6qHX > >>>> SzEall6+A+7o8nU9ZLDgCkCobGmM+8 > >>>> SzEall6+A+7o8nU9ZLDgCkCobGmM+H > >>>>>> SzEall6+A+7o8nU9ZLDgCkCobGmM+SbHkoC > >>>>>> > >>>> 0L+PdB6in1CSYw7892ll76dAc/5w1z8PRHXfjcL/+I2YpCO5UCU98Unp2u1mmCXXndme > >>>> 0L+Y > >>>> 0L+7 > >>>>>> 0L+3sZRkY > >>>>>> > >>>> HcKuZRaR03hksSGuKgxd+wHStK9woa5R8KQS1Gc6IHRFPJT7G4tR98iqYGqxkxe/itSM > >>>> HcKuZRaR03hksSGuKgxd+2 > >>>> HcKuZRaR03hksSGuKgxd++ > >>>>>> HcKuZRaR03hksSGuKgxd+54d/Xr > >>>>>> > >>>> 4RSq34jyYCqc690W94Vp2LP69wWOCakCSysUUI3LcFp8urfC5ZQVGRBiqlPNySg4R4ok > >>>> J > >>>> K > >>>>>> bKDMil > >>>>>> > >>>> EBkCAwEAAaOCA4QwggOAMD0GCSsGAQQBgjcVBwQwMC4GJisGAQQBgjcVCIG6sk2EyMhq > >>>> g > >>>> 6 > >>>>>> 2TP4eU > >>>>>> > >>>> 9FqD+YhuTofryz+Gg5haAgFkAgEHMCkGA1UdJQQiMCAGCisGAQQBgjcKAwQGCCsGAQUF > >>>> 9FqD+YhuTofryz+B > >>>> 9FqD+YhuTofryz+w > >>>>>> 9FqD+YhuTofryz+MEBggr > >>>>>> > >>>> BgEFBQcDAjAOBgNVHQ8BAf8EBAMCBaAwNQYJKwYBBAGCNxUKBCgwJjAMBgorBgEEAYI3 > >>>> C > >>>> g > >>>>>> MEMAoG > >>>>>> > >>>> CCsGAQUFBwMEMAoGCCsGAQUFBwMCMIGUBgkqhkiG9w0BCQ8EgYYwgYMwCwYJYIZIAWUD > >>>> B > >>>> A > >>>>>> EqMAsG > >>>>>> > >>>> CWCGSAFlAwQBLTALBglghkgBZQMEARYwCwYJYIZIAWUDBAEZMAsGCWCGSAFlAwQBAjAL > >>>> B > >>>> g > >>>>>> lghkgB > >>>>>> > >>>> ZQMEAQUwCgYIKoZIhvcNAwcwBwYFKw4DAgcwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMA4GCCqGSIb3 > >>>> D > >>>> Q > >>>>>> MEAgIC > >>>>>> > >>>> ADAdBgNVHQ4EFgQUb9oEypTkHK3ULRCW/C19dwlSCH8wHwYDVR0jBBgwFoAU6SnqwgW7 > >>>> l > >>>> 8 > >>>>>> pLP3J5 > >>>>>> > >>>> evpbgku5aoQwgdkGA1UdHwSB0TCBzjCBy6CByKCBxYaBwmxkYXA6Ly8vQ049YWQxLWxh > >>>> e > >>>> C > >>>>>> 5kcy5p > >>>>>> > >>>> Y2Fubi5vcmcoMSksQ049YWQxLWxheCxDTj1DRFAsQ049UHVibGljJTIwS2V5JTIwU2Vy > >>>> d > >>>> m > >>>>>> ljZXMs > >>>>>> > >>>> Q049U2VydmljZXMsQ049Q29uZmlndXJhdGlvbixEQz1kcyxEQz1pY2FubixEQz1vcmc/ > >>>> Y > >>>> 2 > >>>>>> VydGlm > >>>>>> > >>>> aWNhdGVSZXZvY2F0aW9uTGlzdD9iYXNlP29iamVjdENsYXNzPWNSTERpc3RyaWJ1dGlv > >>>> b > >>>> l > >>>>>> BvaW50 > >>>>>> > >>>> MIHKBggrBgEFBQcBAQSBvTCBujCBtwYIKwYBBQUHMAKGgapsZGFwOi8vL0NOPWFkMS1s > >>>> Y > >>>> X > >>>>>> guZHMu > >>>>>> > >>>> aWNhbm4ub3JnLENOPUFJQSxDTj1QdWJsaWMlMjBLZXklMjBTZXJ2aWNlcyxDTj1TZXJ2 > >>>> a > >>>> W > >>>>>> NlcyxD > >>>>>> > >>>> Tj1Db25maWd1cmF0aW9uLERDPWRzLERDPWljYW5uLERDPW9yZz9jQUNlcnRpZmljYXRl > >>>> P > >>>> 2 > >>>>>> Jhc2U/ > >>>>>> > >>>> b2JqZWN0Q2xhc3M9Y2VydGlmaWNhdGlvbkF1dGhvcml0eTBNBgNVHREERjBEoCgGCisG > >>>> A > >>>> Q > >>>>>> QBgjcU > >>>>>> > >>>> AgOgGgwYc2FybWFkLmh1c3NhaW5AaWNhbm4ub3JngRhzYXJtYWQuaHVzc2FpbkBpY2Fu > >>>> b > >>>> i > >>>>>> 5vcmcw > >>>>>> > >>>> DQYJKoZIhvcNAQEFBQADggEBAHbIaTTqckaD1y/vCD4q8u09N66oVdbm4CCQLwdlYNO1 > >>>> u > >>>> U > >>>>>> guov8L > >>>>>> > >>>> W+d8vJsANoGQ5aB349mzZVEJmfe9IrCWOS9R2MZi5u6PxsZFLiouD2LVldFZ/gA0tWqP > >>>> W+p > >>>> W+t > >>>>>> W+y/HEwi > >>>>>> > >>>> T9MJ+dujtjGuhUyQGJ/c/TAXYw+11URpdw/ulLO94pKhybMJlGuCD9Y6SugUUvRZfV9C > >>>> T9MJ+G > >>>> T9MJ+q > >>>>>> T9MJ+3dA43k > >>>>>> > >>>> EkvN7EUxhPSytjwr+X4mcJfzR1TV5D+nsb+Qh6tLYNVg750MJZkUdvs1SqWFQHaOGcfI > >>>> EkvN7EUxhPSytjwr+X4mcJfzR1TV5D+nsb+e > >>>> EkvN7EUxhPSytjwr+X4mcJfzR1TV5D+nsb+K > >>>>>> EkvN7EUxhPSytjwr+X4mcJfzR1TV5D+nsb+rLgTKN > >>>>>> > >>>> daSK/m87mPTCp04BO1A/pQcuekmI3ozmwP1XSCFzpsLnT1TbX3vfGluqgUu655kxggOJ > >>>> M > >>>> I > >>>>>> IDhQIB > >>>>>> > >>>> ATBtMF8xEzARBgoJkiaJk/IsZAEZFgNvcmcxFTATBgoJkiaJk/IsZAEZFgVpY2FubjES > >>>> M > >>>> B > >>>>>> AGCgmS > >>>>>> > >>>> JomT8ixkARkWAmRzMR0wGwYDVQQDExRhZDEtbGF4LmRzLmljYW5uLm9yZwIKdWqXhgAB > >>>> A > >>>> A > >>>>>> AJHzAJ > >>>>>> > >>>> BgUrDgMCGgUAoIIB8TAYBgkqhkiG9w0BCQMxCwYJKoZIhvcNAQcBMBwGCSqGSIb3DQEJ > >>>> B > >>>> T > >>>>>> EPFw0x > >>>>>> > >>>> ODA1MjgwNTI2MTNaMCMGCSqGSIb3DQEJBDEWBBR8LUxI1LAn3WdertCUOSpR06a2zjB8 > >>>> B > >>>> g > >>>>>> krBgEE > >>>>>> > >>>> AYI3EAQxbzBtMF8xEzARBgoJkiaJk/IsZAEZFgNvcmcxFTATBgoJkiaJk/IsZAEZFgVp > >>>> Y > >>>> 2 > >>>>>> FubjES > >>>>>> > >>>> MBAGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWAmRzMR0wGwYDVQQDExRhZDEtbGF4LmRzLmljYW5uLm9yZwIK > >>>> d > >>>> W > >>>>>> qXhgAB > >>>>>> > >>>> AAAJHzB+BgsqhkiG9w0BCRACCzFvoG0wXzETMBEGCgmSJomT8ixkARkWA29yZzEVMBMG > >>>> AAAJHzB+C > >>>> AAAJHzB+g > >>>>>> AAAJHzB+mSJomT > >>>>>> > >>>> 8ixkARkWBWljYW5uMRIwEAYKCZImiZPyLGQBGRYCZHMxHTAbBgNVBAMTFGFkMS1sYXgu > >>>> Z > >>>> H > >>>>>> MuaWNh > >>>>>> > >>>> bm4ub3JnAgp1apeGAAEAAAkfMIGTBgkqhkiG9w0BCQ8xgYUwgYIwCgYIKoZIhvcNAwcw > >>>> C > >>>> w > >>>>>> YJYIZI > >>>>>> > >>>> AWUDBAEqMAsGCWCGSAFlAwQBFjALBglghkgBZQMEAQIwDgYIKoZIhvcNAwICAgCAMA0G > >>>> C > >>>> C > >>>>>> qGSIb3 > >>>>>> > >>>> DQMCAgFAMAcGBSsOAwIaMAsGCWCGSAFlAwQCAzALBglghkgBZQMEAgIwCwYJYIZIAWUD > >>>> B > >>>> A > >>>>>> IBMA0G > >>>>>> > >>>> CSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBAGnzDMiJdTOPXpJyTFeYUB2YBt8onPcISntBB1ohaYV82KwA > >>>> F > >>>> Y > >>>>>> 7m8crG > >>>>>> > >>>> > qXogm9djUaaE31w4JyZEiX83pPrUW1OKPDIa6yY84QGIhZ2c+PKdD+EItxuF3vPKVrkagCg+q4V9 > >>>> L8siqUtRctZnrMfMG4L7gp7pRMRZNiiSdXqCnKkxGIAnUBLyG0AnHG5plJ2xWxz/2IPh > >>>> x > >>>> E > >>>>>> pfR84k > >>>>>> > >>>> 6/oHS8XMBwADup4zfW/B8hh37p4hw64lLzohgRA5iRnYFKFjdVeDF5AXe67WvQPCITcV > >>>> 9 > >>>> H > >>>>>> SXAWV9 > >>>>>> > >>>> W0lN52xhWzsOZkgV25sNzTvqog7NeKObagntuDlBRK/srrL4a4vhXPllySkAAAAAAAA= > >>>>>> ------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D3F66E.4DAD12E0-- > >>>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Idngwg mailing list > >>>> Idngwg@icann.org > >>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Idngwg mailing list > >>>> Idngwg@icann.org > >>>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg > >> -- > >> Kal Feher > >> Melbourne, Australia > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Idngwg mailing list > >> Idngwg@icann.org > >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Idngwg mailing list > > Idngwg@icann.org > > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg > > -- > Kal Feher > Melbourne, Australia > > > > _______________________________________________ > Idngwg mailing list > Idngwg@icann.org > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg >
I’m good with the response. Thanks, Sarmad. -Dennis From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Satish Babu <sb.inapp@gmail.com> Reply-To: "sb@inapp.com" <sb@inapp.com> Date: Tuesday, August 21, 2018 at 5:36 AM To: Kal <icann@feherfamily.org> Cc: "idngwg@icann.org" <idngwg@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you I'm also fine with this response. satish On Tue, Aug 21, 2018, 14:48 Kal Feher <icann@feherfamily.org<mailto:icann@feherfamily.org>> wrote: I'm fine with the response. On 21/8/18 6:21 pm, Sarmad Hussain wrote:
Thank you Edmon.
Dear All,
Please let me know if you have any further feedback on the response. It would be great if you can respond by this Thursday.
I will incorporate any further comments and respond to JPRS accordingly on Friday.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: Edmon <edmon@registry.asia<mailto:edmon@registry.asia>> Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 5:09 PM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org<mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org>>; idngwg@icann.org<mailto:idngwg@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Looks good. Edmon
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg [mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org>] On Behalf Of Sarmad Hussain Sent: Monday, August 20, 2018 8:00 PM To: idngwg@icann.org<mailto:idngwg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG members,
Please find below the suggested response, for your review and finalization.
Regards, Sarmad
=====
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Even though the guidelines have been finalized by the IDN Guidelines WG and published, the WG appreciates the input from JPRS.
In the context of your comment regarding Guideline 16, please note that the guideline empowers the registry to manage the cases of confusable labels. The guideline only requires the registry to identify such cases (if any) and devise a policy to address it. Therefore, for example, it allows for the registries to resolve such cases of confusable registrations via the Dispute Resolution Process (DRP), as you suggest.
We hope this clarifies the guideline.
Regards,
IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: Tan Tanaka, Dennis <dtantanaka@verisign.com<mailto:dtantanaka@verisign.com>> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2018 7:26 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org<mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org>> Cc: idngwg@icann.org<mailto:idngwg@icann.org> Subject: Re: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear all,
I apologize for coming late to this (I was off for a few weeks due to holidays)
I agree with Kal’s view point, so support using that as a next response to Yoshitaka-san.
Dennis
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 18, 2018, at 2:49 AM, Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org<mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org>> wrote:
Dear All,
There is no further discussion on this. Should I convert the following text by Kal in a response and share back with all of you for review. Do we need to add any further discussion?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish. Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org>> On Behalf Of Kal Feher Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:02 AM To: idngwg@icann.org<mailto:idngwg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
I think we still owe Yoshitaka a reply, unless one has gone out that I have missed.
On 1/8/18 9:44 pm, Kal Feher wrote: I'd like to understand what exactly this group can and should do going > forward with the guidelines at this stage?
While it is certainly worth hearing from JPRS and their perspective on > the guidelines, if the guidelines are unlikely to change until another > draft is developed well into the future, we should be very clear about > that fact to Yoshitaka and anyone else corresponding with the WG.
As for Yoshitaka's points, my preference is always to err towards permissible guidelines and to let registries control their own fate. I > think the guidelines do allow this. The guidelines say that exceptions > to the requirement should be covered by IDN policies, which parallels Yoshitaka's suggestion that confusable registrations could be resolved > via DRP (I presume he is using the common acronym for Dispute Resolution Policy). In my opinion the guidelines do not prevent JPRS from doing exactly as they wish.
Kal
On 31/7/18 10:03 pm, Mats Dufberg wrote: [Internal message, Yoshitaka Okuno not included.]
After reading the message Yoshitaka Okuno(1) I have the following reflections and questions:
He states regarding example in 2 below:
"These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people."
Does he then mean people outside the Japanese community?
"But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion."
Does he mean that people from the Japanese community will have no problem to differentiate between the two phrases? Or does he mean that the two phrases are usually used in two different contexts so that no real confusion happens?
In whose eyes should the "visual similarity" sit?
Mats
(1) As far as I can see, Yoshitaka is a male's name and therefore "he", "his".
--- Mats Dufberg DNS Specialist, IIS Mobile: +46 73 065 3899 https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.iis.se_en_& d=DwIGaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwP cawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=joKA2xTDMoVh7AEsz0PcrKZCSZs53w_o3 BW4x_jsCpw&s=ySyXGvIe3ap_ZQi_N1Fi9C-j3iDORSgXf1xwCf5ZFh0&e=
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:idngwg-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp>" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp>> Date: Tuesday, 31 July 2018 at 09:27 To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org<mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org>>, idngwg <idngwg@icann.org<mailto:idngwg@icann.org>> Cc: "yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp>" <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp>> Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines. To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows. We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- - - 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters >> to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method. As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and >> Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced >> out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and >> the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100.TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues?
-------------------------------------------------------------------- - - 2. should confusable labels be blocked? Please see the following examples. "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime" These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No". Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion?
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling. Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up query.
Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR. Regards Sarmad
----------- Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the >> Japanese writing system.
Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the Japanese writing system as well.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp>] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org<mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org>> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org<mailto:pitinan.koo@icann.org>>; idngwg@icann.org<mailto:idngwg@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of >> my SPAM filter.
Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand >> the guidelines.
=== Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... ===
We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and >> "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines.
We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members.
Thanks and Regards,
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org<mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org>> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp>] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org<mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org>> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org<mailto:pitinan.koo@icann.org>>; idngwg@icann.org<mailto:idngwg@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org<mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org>> wrote:
> Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG). > Regards, > Sarmad > ============= > > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, > > Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the > continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple > WG meetings and the means to address it. > > Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version > 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of > the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r > es > ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u 3>> P Jp6wrc
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-qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states: > 5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the > same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script > Names > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > _r > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r > =K > TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm > _V > g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>.>> > > > Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages >> with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, >> visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined." > For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has > been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, > while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline: > 15. All code points in a single IDN label must be >> taken from the > same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: > Unicode Script Property > (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org > _r > eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r =>> K TETvEa
GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71w e
--------------------------------------------------------------------- Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services >> Co., Ltd. On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org<mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org>> wrote: -
wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts. > Also see Additional Notes V and VI. > > 16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode > scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must > not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code > points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly > defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV. > Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, > the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without > changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as > per the details > below: > > 1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG > discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in > Guideline 16. > 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous > and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as > defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the > original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to >> UTR 24. > 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system > uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the > WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes > "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As > the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the >> WG > agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. > 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known > case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes > that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. > Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen > to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively > these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional > Notes V > and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode > script"-mixing in Japanese writing system. > > Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call > for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically > for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed > cross-script cases. > Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both >> > these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional > mechanisms for this purpose. > > We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it >> has > tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you >>> have any further input or concerns. > Regards, > IDN Guidelines WG > > > -----Original Message----- > From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp>] > Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM > To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se<mailto:mats.dufberg@iis.se>> > Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org<mailto:sarmad.hussain@icann.org>>; Pitinan > Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org<mailto:pitinan.koo@icann.org>> > Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you > > Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, > (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan) > > On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN > implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in > the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For > these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you. > Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the > IDN Guidelines" > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n > ew > s_anno > uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb > PS > S6sJms > 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW > 1P > mY1jJ5 > LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ > Le > g&e= > was published. > > It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior > correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March. > Yoshitaka Okuno > Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. > > On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp<mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> wrote: >> Dear IDN guidelines working group, >> >> Please refer to the following comments and proposal. >> The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your >> suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan. >> In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by >> Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room. >> >> I hope this may be of help to you. >> >> >> [Summary] >> >> 1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable >> characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of >> multiple scripts. >> >> We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases >> stated in Guideline#15. >> Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a >> commingled manner based on established orthographies and >> conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in >> single words. This means Japanese people consider the >> collective >> set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE >> script in constituting Japanese words, just as native >> English >> writers/readers consider English characters to belong >> to ONE >> script. >> >> Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE >> scripts is >> allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should >> be the same >> as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain >> labels. >> >> 2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable >> characters are described. We think they are the good notes because >> the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed. >> Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable >> characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and >> in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think >> the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in >> guideline#16. >> >> [Suggestion] >> >> We would like to propose as follows. >> >> - The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to >> a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The >> new section >> is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters". >> >> - The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. >>
>> 16. >> Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single >> set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly >> define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion >> between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV. >> >>
>> - >> >> Thanks for your consideration. >> ---- >> Yoshitaka Okuno >> Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services >> Co., Ltd. >> >> > >
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_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org<mailto:Idngwg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org<mailto:Idngwg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg -- Kal Feher Melbourne, Australia
_______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org<mailto:Idngwg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
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-- Kal Feher Melbourne, Australia _______________________________________________ Idngwg mailing list Idngwg@icann.org<mailto:Idngwg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/idngwg
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, Thank you for your response and queries. These have been shared with the IDN Guidelines WG. We will get back to you as soon as the WG has compiled its response. Regards, Sarmad -----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 12:27 PM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines. To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows. We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method. As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100. TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. should confusable labels be blocked? Please see the following examples. "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime" These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No". Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling.
Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up query.
Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR.
Regards Sarmad
----------- Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the Japanese writing system.
Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the Japanese writing system as well.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM filter.
Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the guidelines.
=== Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... ===
We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines.
We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members.
Thanks and Regards,
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_r es
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3P Jp6wrc rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mx d028M4 &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhED -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from
the
same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org _r eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r =K TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm _V g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org _r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K TETvEa GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we- wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_n ew s_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkb PS S6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW 1P mY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZ Le g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows.
16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a
single
set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize
confusion
between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
------------------------------------------------------------------ -
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
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Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG. Regards, Sarmad ==== Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, Even though the guidelines have been finalized by the IDN Guidelines WG and published, the WG appreciates the input from JPRS. In the context of your comment regarding Guideline 16, please note that the guideline empowers the registry to manage the cases of confusable labels. The guideline only requires the registry to identify such cases (if any) and devise a policy to address them. Therefore, for example, it allows for the registries to resolve such cases of confusable registrations via the Dispute Resolution Process (DRP), as you suggest. We hope this clarifies the guideline. With regards, IDN Guidelines WG -----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Sarmad Hussain Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 12:49 PM To: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp Cc: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, Thank you for your response and queries. These have been shared with the IDN Guidelines WG. We will get back to you as soon as the WG has compiled its response. Regards, Sarmad -----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 12:27 PM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted. We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines. To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows. We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire? In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method. As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing. This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100. TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No". Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. should confusable labels be blocked? Please see the following examples. "ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey" "八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime" These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people. But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels. Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion. If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP. Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No". Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling.
Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up query.
Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR.
Regards Sarmad
----------- Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the Japanese writing system.
Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the Japanese writing system as well.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM filter.
Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the guidelines.
=== Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... ===
We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines.
We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members.
Thanks and Regards,
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org _r es
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u 3P Jp6wrc rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm- mx d028M4 &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dh ED -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from
the
same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.o rg _r eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM &r =K TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivM pm _V g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.o rg _r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r =K TETvEa GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71w e- wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org _n ew s_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgf kb PS S6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-Txc ZW 1P mY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIF dZ Le g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows.
16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a
single
set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize
confusion
between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
---------------------------------------------------------------- -- -
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
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------=_NextPart_000_0060_01D3F66E.4DAD12E0--
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your response and your time to resolve this issue. We are happy in reading IDNGWG's response that is in line with our intended registration policy, in which confusable registrations are resolved via DRP. We hope the implementation of the guidelines properly follow the IDNGWG's response - reading The guideline ... allows for the registries to resolve such cases of confusable registrations via the Dispute Resolution Process (DRP). Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 16:18:05 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG.
Regards, Sarmad
====
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Even though the guidelines have been finalized by the IDN Guidelines WG and published, the WG appreciates the input from JPRS.
In the context of your comment regarding Guideline 16, please note that the guideline empowers the registry to manage the cases of confusable labels. The guideline only requires the registry to identify such cases (if any) and devise a policy to address them. Therefore, for example, it allows for the registries to resolve such cases of confusable registrations via the Dispute Resolution Process (DRP), as you suggest.
We hope this clarifies the guideline.
With regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Sarmad Hussain Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 12:49 PM To: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp Cc: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response and queries. These have been shared with the IDN Guidelines WG. We will get back to you as soon as the WG has compiled its response.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 12:27 PM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted.
We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines.
To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows.
We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?
In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method.
As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing.
This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100. TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all.
Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No".
Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. should confusable labels be blocked?
Please see the following examples.
"ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey"
"八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime"
These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people.
But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels.
Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion.
If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP.
Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No".
Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling.
Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up query.
Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR.
Regards Sarmad
----------- Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the Japanese writing system.
Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the Japanese writing system as well.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM filter.
Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the guidelines.
=== Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... ===
We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines.
We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members.
Thanks and Regards,
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org _r es
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u 3P Jp6wrc rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm- mx d028M4 &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dh ED -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from
the
same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.o rg _r eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM &r =K TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivM pm _V g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.o rg _r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r =K TETvEa GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71w e- wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org _n ew s_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgf kb PS S6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-Txc ZW 1P mY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIF dZ Le g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows.
16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a
single
set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize
confusion
between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
---------------------------------------------------------------- -- -
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
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Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG.
Regards, Sarmad
====
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Even though the guidelines have been finalized by the IDN Guidelines WG and published, the WG appreciates the input from JPRS.
In the context of your comment regarding Guideline 16, please note that the guideline empowers the registry to manage the cases of confusable labels. The guideline only requires the registry to identify such cases (if any) and devise a policy to address them. Therefore, for example, it allows for the registries to resolve such cases of confusable registrations via the Dispute Resolution Process (DRP), as you suggest.
We hope this clarifies the guideline.
With regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: Idngwg <idngwg-bounces@icann.org> On Behalf Of Sarmad Hussain Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 12:49 PM To: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp Cc: idngwg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Idngwg] [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response and queries. These have been shared with the IDN Guidelines WG. We will get back to you as soon as the WG has compiled its response.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2018 12:27 PM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your confirmation. We feel very disappointed that our opinion is not adopted.
We still cannot understand the basic concept of IDN Guidelines.
To understand your concept, we would like to show you some typical cases of Japanese language words as follows.
We would appreciate if IDNGWG could tell us their opinion for each. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?
In defining a set of characters that can be used in Japanese labels, we think that it is not appropriate to prohibit other characters to be used, leaving only one character, just because certain characters are visually confusable to each other. That would inhibit natural expressions or daily-used input method.
As we explained over and over again, Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji characters can be mixed in an arbitrary order in Japanese words. And daily-used computer input method supports such typing.
This illustrates the same situation where "l"/"O" is forced out of repertoire just because "1"/"0" is visually confusable with "l"/"O". In this case "fortune100.TLD" cannot be an applied-for label and the applicant must apply for "fortuneloo.TLD" (el-ou-ou) instead of "fortune100. TLD". If ASCII labels follow the concept of guidelines, "1" and "0" are not allowed to be used in any labels at all.
Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable characters be forced out of repertoire?" is "No".
Question for IDNGWG; Do you have any differnet opinions about this issues?
---------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. should confusable labels be blocked?
Please see the following examples.
"ハニー" (U+30CF, U+30CB, U+30FC) means "honey"
"八二一" (U+516B, U+4E8C, U+4E00) means group name of Japanese photographers "hani hajime"
These may be regarded as confusable strings by some people.
But these consist of totally different characters with different reading and meaning, and each of them exists in reality. We think both words should be allowed to be registered as domain name labels.
Those words live in Japanese real life with no confusion.
If there should be any problems on their use, they should be resolved using DRP.
Therefore, our answer to the original question "should confusable labels be blocked?" is "No".
Questions for IDNGWG; Do you think that only one of them is allowed to be registered in the above example? And what is the reason and/or tangible ground of your opinion? ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 22:21:36 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
I apologize for the delay in responding, as I have been traveling.
Please find below the response from the IDN Guidelines WG to your follow-up query.
Please separately let me know if you have a query or comment for the integration panel in the context of Japanese proposal for the Root Zone LGR.
Regards Sarmad
----------- Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
The IDN Guidelines WG had discussed the case of Japanese writing system at multiple meetings based on feedback received from JPRS.
Kindly note that based on the definition of scripts by the Unicode standard, Japanese writing system mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts. Guideline 15 puts constraints on mixing scripts in general. But associated Additional Notes have been added to note that Hiragana, Katakana and Kanji (Han) scripts along with ASCII are allowed to be mixed for the Japanese writing system.
Guideline 16 is specifically applicable to all the script mixing cases allowed in Guideline 15. Therefore, Guideline 16 will be applicable to the Japanese writing system as well.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2018 6:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
I apologize for this delayed response due to false positive of my SPAM filter.
Thank you for sharing our comments with IDNGWG members.
We hope that the consequence is clearly described as follows in item V of "2.8 Additional Notes" to make readers unmistakably understand the guidelines.
=== Guideline 15: For example, Japanese language normally mixes Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts. Therefore, Japanese labels can be mixed strings of Hiragana, Katakana and Han characters, and shall be treated in the same way as in a single Unicode script. Also, for Chinese, .... ===
We should not treat "mixing of Hiragana, Katakana and Han" and "mixing of different language scripts" in the same rank, and we should clearly state this concept in the guidelines.
We hope that you would share our additional comment as above with Integration Panel members.
Thanks and Regards,
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
PS. We still have a strong view that visual similarity should be dealt with in applications or DRP, not in domain name registration, if such treatment is needed. We hope this view will be communicated more openly later.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Mon, 28 May 2018 05:26:17 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your response.
This is to acknowledge its receipt and to confirm that your response below has been shared with the IDNGWG members.
Regards, Sarmad
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain,
Thank you for your response.
We summarized our understanding as below.
Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG.
We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments.
We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16.
Thanks again for your assistance.
Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.o rg _r es
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY 1u 3P Jp6wrc rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyL m- mx d028M4 &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR- dh ED -qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from
the
same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode .o rg _r eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5 cM &r =K TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1Ci vM pm _V
g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>.
Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode .o rg _r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM &r =K TETvEa GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg7 1w e- wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno, (cc: IDNGWG) We acknowledge your response below. Regards, Sarmad -----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp <yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp> Sent: Monday, September 3, 2018 9:16 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your response and your time to resolve this issue. We are happy in reading IDNGWG's response that is in line with our intended registration policy, in which confusable registrations are resolved via DRP. We hope the implementation of the guidelines properly follow the IDNGWG's response - reading The guideline ... allows for the registries to resolve such cases of confusable registrations via the Dispute Resolution Process (DRP). Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Sun, 26 Aug 2018 16:18:05 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote: 24.
3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.o rg _n ew s_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVz gf kb PS S6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-T xc ZW 1P mY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXM IF dZ Le g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows.
16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a
single
set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize
confusion
between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
-------------------------------------------------------------- -- -- -
Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
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Dear IDNGWG members, Kindly advise how you would like to respond to the following message. Regards, Sarmad -----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Monday, May 28, 2018 9:06 AM To: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> Cc: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org>; idngwg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Ext] haven't received any response from you Dear IDNGWG and Sarmad Hussain, Thank you for your response. We summarized our understanding as below. Should this mail doesn't reach IDNGWG, I'd appreciate it if Mr. Sarmad could forward it to IDNGWG. We have recognized that IDNGWG added Additional Note V and VI to the Guideline as a result of discussion on our comments. We have understood that Japanese language shall not be considered as "mixing of Unicode scripts" written in Guideline #16. Thanks again for your assistance. Best Regards, ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd. On Fri, 18 May 2018 06:04:54 +0000 Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org> wrote:
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Please find below the response by the IDN Guidelines Working Group (IDNGWG).
Regards, Sarmad =============
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
Dear Yoshitaka Okuno,
Thank you for your emails. The IDN Guidelines WG appreciates the continued input from JPRS, and had discussed the input at multiple WG meetings and the means to address it.
Please note that the Guidelines 15 and 16 in the proposed version 4.0 are not new. These are a part of the existing version 3.0 of the IDN Guidelines, which are currently implemented (see https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_res
ources_pages_idn-2Dguidelines-2D2011-2D09-2D02-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrc rwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4 &m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=FeWKN256bvrq6yzR-dhED-qNb7W nq8_cy1tkQv6CwGA&e=). The existing guideline states:
5. “All code points in a single label will be taken from the same script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Script Names <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org_r eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=K TETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_V g71we-wvho7cqN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=>. Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with
established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple scripts. Even in the case of this exception, visually confusable characters from different scripts will not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding policy and character table is clearly defined."
For more clarity, in the proposed version 4.0 this guideline has been divided into two parts. Guideline 15 addresses the first part, while Guideline 16 covers the second part of the existing guideline:
15. All code points in a single IDN label must be taken from the same Unicode script as determined by the Unicode Standard Annex #24: Unicode Script Property (https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.unicode.org_r
eports_tr24&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEa GPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=KR3mHCS8MRtbT2mH1CivMpm_Vg71we-wvho7c qN5Z9Q&s=wkkgI6r04K42Ol_7w4Xo__C0IXBtXIKYZmKGmP4teq0&e=). Exceptions to this guideline are permissible for languages with established orthographies and conventions that require the commingled use of multiple Unicode scripts.
Also see Additional Notes V and VI.
16. In the case of any exceptions made allowing mixing of Unicode scripts, visually confusable characters from different scripts must not be allowed to co-exist in a single set of permissible code points unless a corresponding IDN policy and IDN Table is clearly defined to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
Considering the JPRS input and additional discussion by its members, the IDN Guidelines WG has made some finer clarifications without changing the intention of the original guideline in version 3.0, as per the details below:
1. For referring to Japanese case and other cases, the WG discussed that changes should be made in Guideline 15 and not in Guideline 16. 2. The WG considered that the use of “script” may be ambiguous and so changed the text to refer explicitly to “Unicode script” as defined in the Unicode script property. This was implied in the original ver. 3.0 of the Guidelines, which had referred to UTR 24. 3. In the context of “Unicode script”, Japanese writing system uses Hiragana, Katakana and Han. Therefore, based on JPRS input, the WG agreed to qualify Japanese writing system as a case which mixes "Unicode scripts" and therefore should be allowed by default. As the guidelines themselves were intended to be generic, the WG agreed that this be done as an Additional Note and not in the text of the guideline. 4. Additional Note V was added to state that Japanese is a known case where Hiragana, Katakana and Han scripts are mixed. It also notes that Chinese, Japanese and Korean IDN tables also mix “a-z” ASCII. Additional Note VI allows additional letters like digits and hyphen to be mixed in scripts, where relevant. Therefore, cumulatively these notes allow for labels like "jpドメイン名の登録". So the Additional Notes V and VI cover the concerns raised by JPRS to pre-qualify "Unicode script"-mixing in Japanese writing system.
Please also note that there are two separate guidelines which call for addressing similarity and confusability - no. 14 specifically for within-script cases and no. 16 specifically for allowed cross-script cases. Therefore, no. 16 was not altered to be more generic. Both these guidelines point to Additional Note IV, which suggest additional mechanisms for this purpose.
We hope this clarifies the motivations of the WG on how it has tried to address the input from JPRS. Please let us know if you have any further input or concerns.
Regards, IDN Guidelines WG
-----Original Message----- From: yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp [mailto:yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp] Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 2:49 PM To: Mats Dufberg <mats.dufberg@iis.se> Cc: Sarmad Hussain <sarmad.hussain@icann.org>; Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] haven't received any response from you
Dear IDN guidelines WG Chair, (CC: Sarmad、Pitinan)
On 30 March, I sent you our proposed change on the IDN implementation guidelines document, following the suggestion made in the WG public meeting in San Juan on 12 March (pasted below). For these one and half months, I have not received any response to that from you.
Today, I happened to find that "Final Proposed Draft v. 4.0 of the IDN Guidelines" https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_new s_anno uncement-2D2018-2D05-2D10-2Den&d=DwICJg&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPS S6sJms 7xcl4I5cM&r=KTETvEaGPwPcawI-QmNa-kiv-ZBvdgyyLm-mxd028M4&m=zptC-TxcZW1P mY1jJ5 LzXVqPvD3ZlsiKvb4agfECycQ&s=wxk9m-mdZnan6Q2PmV36GLfLEXk6eKFuZRXMIFdZLe g&e= was published.
It was a surprise and disappointing for us to find it without prior correspondence regarding our proposal sent to you on 30 March.
Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
On Fri, 30 Mar 2018 17:40:59 +0900 yoshitaka@jprs.co.jp wrote:
Dear IDN guidelines working group,
Please refer to the following comments and proposal. The comments and proposal are being sent to you, following your suggestion made in IDN Guidelines Working Group meeting in San Juan.
In the working group meeting, the essence was orally stated by Hiro Hotta, JPRS in the meeting room.
I hope this may be of help to you.
[Summary]
1. As described in current guidelines, the issues of visually confusable characters are not specific to the cases with commingled use of multiple scripts.
We believe Japanese domain labels fall on the exceptional cases stated in Guideline#15. Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana scrips are daily used in a commingled manner based on established orthographies and conventions in Japan. Such comingled use is allowed even in single words. This means Japanese people consider the collective set of Kanji, Hiragana, and Katakana characters to belong to ONE script in constituting Japanese words, just as native English writers/readers consider English characters to belong to ONE script.
Therefore, in the case where comingled use of UNICODE scripts is allowed by Guideline#15, restrictions (if any) should be the same as in the case of one UNICODE script in constituting domain labels.
2. In Additional Note IV, the guidelines of visually confusable characters are described. We think they are the good notes because the issues of visually confusable characters are clearly pointed.
Taking into account the fact that issues of visually confusable characters reside both in the case of a single UNICODE script and in the case where comingled UNICODE scripts are allowed, we think the sentence "must not be allowed to" is overdescribed in guideline#16.
[Suggestion]
We would like to propose as follows.
- The guideline#16 is removed from section 2.5.2 and is moved to a newly created section between 2.5.2 and 2.5.3. The new section is headlined as "2.5.X Visually confusable characters".
- The guideline#16 will be modified as follows. ------------------------------------------------------------------- 16. Visually confusable characters had better not co-exist in a single set of permissible code points. TLD registries should clearly define a corresponding policy and IDN Table to minimize confusion between domain names. Also see Additional Note IV.
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Thanks for your consideration. ---- Yoshitaka Okuno Manager, Services Development Department Japan Registry Services Co., Ltd.
participants (7)
-
Edmon -
Kal Feher -
Mats Dufberg -
Sarmad Hussain -
Satish Babu -
Tan Tanaka, Dennis -
yoshitaka＠jprs.co.jp