Meetings at ICANN in L.A. -- input requested
All, After exploring the possibilities, looking at the schedule etc, the current status of meetings in L.A. is as follows. Please note the question regarding silent observers below!! Input is appreciated. Constituency Travel have just been informed about the meeting Friday October 17, so those of you that do have funding from ICANN in one way or another will get your travel changed. Thursday October 16 10:30 - 12:00 Public discussion There will be interpretation to all UN languages. We are looking at how to place chairs etc in the room. The consensus I saw on this list was that all ICG members in L.A. should be on the stage (whatever that means), and I am looking at alternatives together with Meeting Team on how to accommodate that. Friday October 17 09:00 - 17:30 Working Session There will be interpretation to all UN languages. Seating will be in a U-shaped table. We do have space for max 80 silent observers. Question: Should we allow silent observers? Patrik
Thanks Patrik. I support silent observers for the Friday meeting. Best, jon On Aug 21, 2014, at 2:20 PM, Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se> wrote:
All,
After exploring the possibilities, looking at the schedule etc, the current status of meetings in L.A. is as follows. Please note the question regarding silent observers below!! Input is appreciated.
Constituency Travel have just been informed about the meeting Friday October 17, so those of you that do have funding from ICANN in one way or another will get your travel changed.
Thursday October 16 10:30 - 12:00 Public discussion
There will be interpretation to all UN languages.
We are looking at how to place chairs etc in the room. The consensus I saw on this list was that all ICG members in L.A. should be on the stage (whatever that means), and I am looking at alternatives together with Meeting Team on how to accommodate that.
Friday October 17 09:00 - 17:30 Working Session
There will be interpretation to all UN languages.
Seating will be in a U-shaped table.
We do have space for max 80 silent observers.
Question: Should we allow silent observers?
Patrik
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Hi, /Question: Should we allow silent observers?/ No problem for me ...! best Hartmut =================================== On 8/21/14 3:20 PM, Patrik Fältström wrote:
All,
After exploring the possibilities, looking at the schedule etc, the current status of meetings in L.A. is as follows. Please note the question regarding silent observers below!! Input is appreciated.
Constituency Travel have just been informed about the meeting Friday October 17, so those of you that do have funding from ICANN in one way or another will get your travel changed.
Thursday October 16 10:30 - 12:00 Public discussion
There will be interpretation to all UN languages.
We are looking at how to place chairs etc in the room. The consensus I saw on this list was that all ICG members in L.A. should be on the stage (whatever that means), and I am looking at alternatives together with Meeting Team on how to accommodate that.
Friday October 17 09:00 - 17:30 Working Session
There will be interpretation to all UN languages.
Seating will be in a U-shaped table.
We do have space for max 80 silent observers.
Question: Should we allow silent observers?
Patrik
_______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
+1 From: Hartmut Richard Glaser <glaser@cgi.br<mailto:glaser@cgi.br>> Organization: CGI.br Date: Thursday, August 21, 2014 at 13:34 To: Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se<mailto:paf@frobbit.se>>, ICG List <internal-cg@icann.org<mailto:internal-cg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Meetings at ICANN in L.A. -- input requested Hi, Question: Should we allow silent observers?No problem for me ...! best Hartmut =================================== On 8/21/14 3:20 PM, Patrik Fältström wrote: All, After exploring the possibilities, looking at the schedule etc, the current status of meetings in L.A. is as follows. Please note the question regarding silent observers below!! Input is appreciated. Constituency Travel have just been informed about the meeting Friday October 17, so those of you that do have funding from ICANN in one way or another will get your travel changed. Thursday October 16 10:30 - 12:00 Public discussion There will be interpretation to all UN languages. We are looking at how to place chairs etc in the room. The consensus I saw on this list was that all ICG members in L.A. should be on the stage (whatever that means), and I am looking at alternatives together with Meeting Team on how to accommodate that. Friday October 17 09:00 - 17:30 Working Session There will be interpretation to all UN languages. Seating will be in a U-shaped table. We do have space for max 80 silent observers. Question: Should we allow silent observers? Patrik _______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org<mailto:Internal-cg@icann.org>https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
space permitting On 8/21/2014 2:34 PM, Hartmut Richard Glaser wrote:
Hi, /Question: Should we allow silent observers?/
No problem for me ...!
best
Hartmut =================================== On 8/21/14 3:20 PM, Patrik Fältström wrote:
All,
After exploring the possibilities, looking at the schedule etc, the current status of meetings in L.A. is as follows. Please note the question regarding silent observers below!! Input is appreciated.
Constituency Travel have just been informed about the meeting Friday October 17, so those of you that do have funding from ICANN in one way or another will get your travel changed.
Thursday October 16 10:30 - 12:00 Public discussion
There will be interpretation to all UN languages.
We are looking at how to place chairs etc in the room. The consensus I saw on this list was that all ICG members in L.A. should be on the stage (whatever that means), and I am looking at alternatives together with Meeting Team on how to accommodate that.
Friday October 17 09:00 - 17:30 Working Session
There will be interpretation to all UN languages.
Seating will be in a U-shaped table.
We do have space for max 80 silent observers.
Question: Should we allow silent observers?
Patrik
_______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
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yes, allow silent observers Best regards Wolf-Ulrich -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- From: Patrik Fältström Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 8:20 PM To: ICG Subject: [Internal-cg] Meetings at ICANN in L.A. -- input requested _______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
Yes to silent observers. Keith On Aug 21, 2014, at 2:20 PM, "Patrik Fältström" <paf@frobbit.se> wrote:
All,
After exploring the possibilities, looking at the schedule etc, the current status of meetings in L.A. is as follows. Please note the question regarding silent observers below!! Input is appreciated.
Constituency Travel have just been informed about the meeting Friday October 17, so those of you that do have funding from ICANN in one way or another will get your travel changed.
Thursday October 16 10:30 - 12:00 Public discussion
There will be interpretation to all UN languages.
We are looking at how to place chairs etc in the room. The consensus I saw on this list was that all ICG members in L.A. should be on the stage (whatever that means), and I am looking at alternatives together with Meeting Team on how to accommodate that.
Friday October 17 09:00 - 17:30 Working Session
There will be interpretation to all UN languages.
Seating will be in a U-shaped table.
We do have space for max 80 silent observers.
Question: Should we allow silent observers?
Patrik
_______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
Yes, allow silent observers. Mary Uduma Sent from my BlackBerry wireless device from MTN -----Original Message----- From: Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se> Sender: internal-cg-bounces@icann.org Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2014 20:20:21 To: ICG<internal-cg@icann.org> Subject: [Internal-cg] Meetings at ICANN in L.A. -- input requested _______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
-----Original Message----- From: internal-cg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:internal-cg- bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Patrik Fältström Sent: Friday, 22 August 2014 4:20 AM We are looking at how to place chairs etc in the room. The consensus I saw on this list was that all ICG members in L.A. should be on the stage (whatever that means), and I am looking at alternatives together with Meeting Team on how to accommodate that.
[Narelle Clark, with apologies if this has been said before] If this isn't possible, then we really should revisit the concept of doing it in shifts with topic areas. Those people who have stronger interests in one topic over another can be on the stage for that part, and cycle through shift by shift. The statement should be made that being up for a particular topic doesn't mean you have no interest or are uninvolved in the other topics, but that we are rotating the 'time under the spotlight' as it were. The rest of us would be in the first few rows ready to respond where necessary. We've also seen sessions at ICANN where the actual stage isn't used and the panel is immediately in front of the stage where there is more room. The rest of the auditorium seating faces that group.
Friday October 17 09:00 - 17:30 Working Session
There will be interpretation to all UN languages.
Seating will be in a U-shaped table.
We do have space for max 80 silent observers.
Question: Should we allow silent observers?
[Narelle Clark] Yes. Narelle
On 22 aug 2014, at 01:59, Narelle Clark <narelle.clark@accan.org.au> wrote:
We've also seen sessions at ICANN where the actual stage isn't used and the panel is immediately in front of the stage where there is more room. The rest of the auditorium seating faces that group.
I am checking with three different models: a. U-shaped table in front of audience b. Chairs on the stage fronting the audience c. Chairs on the floor between stage and the audience Lets continue the planning with the assumption that it IS possible to solve the logistics. Patrik
It depend on the type of meeting… If it is to be an actual working meeting, I suggest the GAC layout with U-shaped table for ICG members, and audience seated all around. This is better for discussion among the group, but can still allow some presentations to the group, and comments/discussion with audience. But if the meeting is intended for presentation to and consultation with an audience, I’d suggest option c. This I think is like the setup for the IANA transition session during the ICANN London meeting. I think the seating was limited to 15-20 in that case, but we may squeeze the whole ICG if we need to. Paul. On 22 Aug 2014, at 4:26 pm, Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se> wrote:
On 22 aug 2014, at 01:59, Narelle Clark <narelle.clark@accan.org.au> wrote:
We've also seen sessions at ICANN where the actual stage isn't used and the panel is immediately in front of the stage where there is more room. The rest of the auditorium seating faces that group.
I am checking with three different models:
a. U-shaped table in front of audience
b. Chairs on the stage fronting the audience
c. Chairs on the floor between stage and the audience
Lets continue the planning with the assumption that it IS possible to solve the logistics.
Patrik
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On 22 aug 2014, at 08:43, Paul Wilson <pwilson@apnic.net> wrote:
It depend on the type of meeting…
If it is to be an actual working meeting, I suggest the GAC layout with U-shaped table for ICG members, and audience seated all around. This is better for discussion among the group, but can still allow some presentations to the group, and comments/discussion with audience.
FWIW, the working meeting on Friday of the ICANN meeting will be U-shaped, with audience in classroom style.
But if the meeting is intended for presentation to and consultation with an audience, I’d suggest option c. This I think is like the setup for the IANA transition session during the ICANN London meeting. I think the seating was limited to 15-20 in that case, but we may squeeze the whole ICG if we need to.
Thanks for the input. Patrik
Paul.
On 22 Aug 2014, at 4:26 pm, Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se> wrote:
On 22 aug 2014, at 01:59, Narelle Clark <narelle.clark@accan.org.au> wrote:
We've also seen sessions at ICANN where the actual stage isn't used and the panel is immediately in front of the stage where there is more room. The rest of the auditorium seating faces that group.
I am checking with three different models:
a. U-shaped table in front of audience
b. Chairs on the stage fronting the audience
c. Chairs on the floor between stage and the audience
Lets continue the planning with the assumption that it IS possible to solve the logistics.
Patrik
_______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
Yes to observers .. And I agree with Keith Davidson that we should be allowing observers as much as possible .. I also agree with Paul regarding the room set-up .. U-shape (option a.) is better for a working session with observers whereas facing the audience (options b./c.) is better for reporting back or having an interactive discussion .. Kind Regards --Manal -----Original Message----- From: internal-cg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Patrik F?ltstr?m Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 9:07 AM To: Paul Wilson Cc: ICG Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Meetings at ICANN in L.A. -- input requested On 22 aug 2014, at 08:43, Paul Wilson <pwilson@apnic.net> wrote:
It depend on the type of meeting...
If it is to be an actual working meeting, I suggest the GAC layout with U-shaped table for ICG members, and audience seated all around. This is better for discussion among the group, but can still allow some presentations to the group, and comments/discussion with audience.
FWIW, the working meeting on Friday of the ICANN meeting will be U-shaped, with audience in classroom style.
But if the meeting is intended for presentation to and consultation with an audience, I'd suggest option c. This I think is like the setup for the IANA transition session during the ICANN London meeting. I think the seating was limited to 15-20 in that case, but we may squeeze the whole ICG if we need to.
Thanks for the input. Patrik
Paul.
On 22 Aug 2014, at 4:26 pm, Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se> wrote:
On 22 aug 2014, at 01:59, Narelle Clark <narelle.clark@accan.org.au> wrote:
We've also seen sessions at ICANN where the actual stage isn't used and the panel is immediately in front of the stage where there is more room. The rest of the auditorium seating faces that group.
I am checking with three different models:
a. U-shaped table in front of audience
b. Chairs on the stage fronting the audience
c. Chairs on the floor between stage and the audience
Lets continue the planning with the assumption that it IS possible to solve the logistics.
Patrik
_______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
I agree on both points. I had assumed that Thursday was the discussion with the community and Friday the working session, so option a. So Patrik's confirmation on the layout for Friday looks right to me. Best Martin -----Original Message----- From: internal-cg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Manal Ismail Sent: 22 August 2014 11:48 To: Patrik Fältström; Paul Wilson Cc: ICG Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Meetings at ICANN in L.A. -- input requested Yes to observers .. And I agree with Keith Davidson that we should be allowing observers as much as possible .. I also agree with Paul regarding the room set-up .. U-shape (option a.) is better for a working session with observers whereas facing the audience (options b./c.) is better for reporting back or having an interactive discussion .. Kind Regards --Manal -----Original Message----- From: internal-cg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Patrik F?ltstr?m Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 9:07 AM To: Paul Wilson Cc: ICG Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Meetings at ICANN in L.A. -- input requested On 22 aug 2014, at 08:43, Paul Wilson <pwilson@apnic.net> wrote:
It depend on the type of meeting...
If it is to be an actual working meeting, I suggest the GAC layout with U-shaped table for ICG members, and audience seated all around. This is better for discussion among the group, but can still allow some presentations to the group, and comments/discussion with audience.
FWIW, the working meeting on Friday of the ICANN meeting will be U-shaped, with audience in classroom style.
But if the meeting is intended for presentation to and consultation with an audience, I'd suggest option c. This I think is like the setup for the IANA transition session during the ICANN London meeting. I think the seating was limited to 15-20 in that case, but we may squeeze the whole ICG if we need to.
Thanks for the input. Patrik
Paul.
On 22 Aug 2014, at 4:26 pm, Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se> wrote:
On 22 aug 2014, at 01:59, Narelle Clark <narelle.clark@accan.org.au> wrote:
We've also seen sessions at ICANN where the actual stage isn't used and the panel is immediately in front of the stage where there is more room. The rest of the auditorium seating faces that group.
I am checking with three different models:
a. U-shaped table in front of audience
b. Chairs on the stage fronting the audience
c. Chairs on the floor between stage and the audience
Lets continue the planning with the assumption that it IS possible to solve the logistics.
Patrik
_______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
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On 22 Aug 2014, at 12:32, Martin Boyle <Martin.Boyle@nominet.org.uk> wrote:
I agree on both points. I had assumed that Thursday was the discussion with the community and Friday the working session, so option a. So Patrik's confirmation on the layout for Friday looks right to me.
Correct. Community discussion Thursday, working session Friday. Regards, Patrik
Best
Martin
-----Original Message----- From: internal-cg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Manal Ismail Sent: 22 August 2014 11:48 To: Patrik Fältström; Paul Wilson Cc: ICG Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Meetings at ICANN in L.A. -- input requested
Yes to observers .. And I agree with Keith Davidson that we should be allowing observers as much as possible .. I also agree with Paul regarding the room set-up .. U-shape (option a.) is better for a working session with observers whereas facing the audience (options b./c.) is better for reporting back or having an interactive discussion ..
Kind Regards --Manal
-----Original Message----- From: internal-cg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Patrik F?ltstr?m Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 9:07 AM To: Paul Wilson Cc: ICG Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Meetings at ICANN in L.A. -- input requested
On 22 aug 2014, at 08:43, Paul Wilson <pwilson@apnic.net> wrote:
It depend on the type of meeting...
If it is to be an actual working meeting, I suggest the GAC layout with U-shaped table for ICG members, and audience seated all around. This is better for discussion among the group, but can still allow some presentations to the group, and comments/discussion with audience.
FWIW, the working meeting on Friday of the ICANN meeting will be U-shaped, with audience in classroom style.
But if the meeting is intended for presentation to and consultation with an audience, I'd suggest option c. This I think is like the setup for the IANA transition session during the ICANN London meeting. I think the seating was limited to 15-20 in that case, but we may squeeze the whole ICG if we need to.
Thanks for the input.
Patrik
Paul.
On 22 Aug 2014, at 4:26 pm, Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se> wrote:
On 22 aug 2014, at 01:59, Narelle Clark <narelle.clark@accan.org.au> wrote:
We've also seen sessions at ICANN where the actual stage isn't used and the panel is immediately in front of the stage where there is more room. The rest of the auditorium seating faces that group.
I am checking with three different models:
a. U-shaped table in front of audience
b. Chairs on the stage fronting the audience
c. Chairs on the floor between stage and the audience
Lets continue the planning with the assumption that it IS possible to solve the logistics.
Patrik
_______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
_______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg _______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
+1 on these points. Russ On Aug 22, 2014, at 6:32 AM, Martin Boyle <Martin.Boyle@nominet.org.uk> wrote:
I agree on both points. I had assumed that Thursday was the discussion with the community and Friday the working session, so option a. So Patrik's confirmation on the layout for Friday looks right to me.
Best
Martin
-----Original Message----- From: internal-cg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Manal Ismail Sent: 22 August 2014 11:48 To: Patrik Fältström; Paul Wilson Cc: ICG Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Meetings at ICANN in L.A. -- input requested
Yes to observers .. And I agree with Keith Davidson that we should be allowing observers as much as possible .. I also agree with Paul regarding the room set-up .. U-shape (option a.) is better for a working session with observers whereas facing the audience (options b./c.) is better for reporting back or having an interactive discussion ..
Kind Regards --Manal
-----Original Message----- From: internal-cg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Patrik F?ltstr?m Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 9:07 AM To: Paul Wilson Cc: ICG Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Meetings at ICANN in L.A. -- input requested
On 22 aug 2014, at 08:43, Paul Wilson <pwilson@apnic.net> wrote:
It depend on the type of meeting...
If it is to be an actual working meeting, I suggest the GAC layout with U-shaped table for ICG members, and audience seated all around. This is better for discussion among the group, but can still allow some presentations to the group, and comments/discussion with audience.
FWIW, the working meeting on Friday of the ICANN meeting will be U-shaped, with audience in classroom style.
But if the meeting is intended for presentation to and consultation with an audience, I'd suggest option c. This I think is like the setup for the IANA transition session during the ICANN London meeting. I think the seating was limited to 15-20 in that case, but we may squeeze the whole ICG if we need to.
Thanks for the input.
Patrik
Paul.
On 22 Aug 2014, at 4:26 pm, Patrik Fältström <paf@frobbit.se> wrote:
On 22 aug 2014, at 01:59, Narelle Clark <narelle.clark@accan.org.au> wrote:
We've also seen sessions at ICANN where the actual stage isn't used and the panel is immediately in front of the stage where there is more room. The rest of the auditorium seating faces that group.
I am checking with three different models:
a. U-shaped table in front of audience
b. Chairs on the stage fronting the audience
c. Chairs on the floor between stage and the audience
Lets continue the planning with the assumption that it IS possible to solve the logistics.
Patrik
_______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
_______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg _______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
On 22/08/2014 6:20 a.m., Patrik Fältström wrote:
We do have space for max 80 silent observers.
Question: Should we allow silent observers?
Yes. And we should as a guiding principle always attempt to accommodate as many observers as possible, at any F2F meetings, in the interests of openness and transparency Keith Davidson
I support open observation of our activities at any time, including in-room silent observers (space permitting). Jari
+1, Support and agree to silent observers in all our futureface to face meetings as a principle, as space permit . Kind Regards, Mohamed
On 22 Aug 2014, at 15:36, Jari Arkko <jari.arkko@piuha.net> wrote:
I support open observation of our activities at any time, including in-room silent observers (space permitting).
Jari
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+1. Jean-Jacques. ----- Mail original ----- De: "Mohamed El Bashir" <mbashir@mbash.net> À: internal-cg@icann.org Envoyé: Vendredi 22 Août 2014 18:30:13 Objet: Re: [Internal-cg] Meetings at ICANN in L.A. -- input requested +1, Support and agree to silent observers in all our futureface to face meetings as a principle, as space permit . Kind Regards, Mohamed On 22 Aug 2014, at 15:36, Jari Arkko < jari.arkko@piuha.net > wrote: I support open observation of our activities at any time, including in-room silent observers (space permitting). Jari _______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg _______________________________________________ Internal-cg mailing list Internal-cg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/internal-cg
Yes. Please allow as many silent observers as the room will permit. Russ On Aug 21, 2014, at 2:20 PM, "Patrik Fältström" <paf@frobbit.se> wrote:
All,
After exploring the possibilities, looking at the schedule etc, the current status of meetings in L.A. is as follows. Please note the question regarding silent observers below!! Input is appreciated.
Constituency Travel have just been informed about the meeting Friday October 17, so those of you that do have funding from ICANN in one way or another will get your travel changed.
Thursday October 16 10:30 - 12:00 Public discussion
There will be interpretation to all UN languages.
We are looking at how to place chairs etc in the room. The consensus I saw on this list was that all ICG members in L.A. should be on the stage (whatever that means), and I am looking at alternatives together with Meeting Team on how to accommodate that.
Friday October 17 09:00 - 17:30 Working Session
There will be interpretation to all UN languages.
Seating will be in a U-shaped table.
We do have space for max 80 silent observers.
Question: Should we allow silent observers?
Patrik
participants (19)
-
Drazek, Keith -
Hartmut Richard Glaser -
James M. Bladel -
Jari Arkko -
Jon Nevett -
joseph alhadeff -
Keith Davidson -
Manal Ismail -
Martin Boyle -
Milton L Mueller -
mnuduma＠yahoo.com -
Mohamed El Bashir -
Narelle Clark -
Patrik Fältström -
Paul Wilson -
Russ Housley -
Russ Mundy -
Subrenat, Jean-Jacques -
WUKnoben