Narelle: In politics the term legitimacy has almost nothing to do with legality. Things can be perfectly legal but perceived as entirely illegitimate. Authority can be accepted as legitimate while having no legal authority. Legitimacy means that the authority and rightness of the arrangements are widely accepted and trusted by people around the world. I added the term based on comments from Adiel, who made what I thought was a valid point that we wanted the outcome to be legitimate as well as accountable. --MM
From: Milton L Mueller [mueller@syr.edu] Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2014 11:44 PM Narelle: In politics the term legitimacy has almost nothing to do with legality. Things can be perfectly legal but perceived as entirely illegitimate. Authority can be accepted as legitimate while having no legal authority. Legitimacy means that the authority and rightness of the arrangements are widely accepted and trusted by people around the world. I added the term based on comments from Adiel, who made what I thought was a valid point that we wanted the outcome to be legitimate as well as accountable. --- While I agree with you that this sense of the term is common, I fear it is too open to other senses of the term when more widely interpreted. I am expressing a known sensitivity to the term: iif we can come up with a better one that doesn't provoke legal frameworks, then good. If not, I'll live with it, but we will further need to clarify that if we do. I full agree that it needs to be rigorous, widely endorsed, and well understood. That all amounts to being "legitimate" without something having been created through a legal framwork. Ultimately those tests will follow, also, but whatever falls out should be rigorous to withstand it. regards Narelle
Some governments use the word "legitimate" to mean something requires government oversight. Is that the intent?
On Jul 17, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Narelle Clark <narelle.clark@accan.org.au> wrote:
From: Milton L Mueller [mueller@syr.edu] Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2014 11:44 PM
Narelle: In politics the term legitimacy has almost nothing to do with legality. Things can be perfectly legal but perceived as entirely illegitimate. Authority can be accepted as legitimate while having no legal authority. Legitimacy means that the authority and rightness of the arrangements are widely accepted and trusted by people around the world. I added the term based on comments from Adiel, who made what I thought was a valid point that we wanted the outcome to be legitimate as well as accountable.
---
While I agree with you that this sense of the term is common, I fear it is too open to other senses of the term when more widely interpreted.
I am expressing a known sensitivity to the term: iif we can come up with a better one that doesn't provoke legal frameworks, then good. If not, I'll live with it, but we will further need to clarify that if we do.
I full agree that it needs to be rigorous, widely endorsed, and well understood. That all amounts to being "legitimate" without something having been created through a legal framwork. Ultimately those tests will follow, also, but whatever falls out should be rigorous to withstand it.
regards
Narelle
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And Heather has pointed to precisely the problem I mean. I really don't think that is the intent of this language. Narelle ________________________________________ From: dryden_h@yahoo.ca [dryden_h@yahoo.ca] Sent: Friday, 18 July 2014 12:10 AM To: Narelle Clark Cc: Milton L Mueller; internal-cg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Narelle: on legitimacy Some governments use the word "legitimate" to mean something requires government oversight. Is that the intent?
On Jul 17, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Narelle Clark <narelle.clark@accan.org.au> wrote:
From: Milton L Mueller [mueller@syr.edu] Sent: Thursday, 17 July 2014 11:44 PM
Narelle: In politics the term legitimacy has almost nothing to do with legality. Things can be perfectly legal but perceived as entirely illegitimate. Authority can be accepted as legitimate while having no legal authority. Legitimacy means that the authority and rightness of the arrangements are widely accepted and trusted by people around the world. I added the term based on comments from Adiel, who made what I thought was a valid point that we wanted the outcome to be legitimate as well as accountable.
---
While I agree with you that this sense of the term is common, I fear it is too open to other senses of the term when more widely interpreted.
I am expressing a known sensitivity to the term: iif we can come up with a better one that doesn't provoke legal frameworks, then good. If not, I'll live with it, but we will further need to clarify that if we do.
I full agree that it needs to be rigorous, widely endorsed, and well understood. That all amounts to being "legitimate" without something having been created through a legal framwork. Ultimately those tests will follow, also, but whatever falls out should be rigorous to withstand it.
regards
Narelle
-----Original Message----- From: dryden_h@yahoo.ca [mailto:dryden_h@yahoo.ca]
Some governments use the word "legitimate" to mean something requires government oversight. Is that the intent?
No, definitely not the intent. But since the NTIA criteria rule out any arrangements based on governmental oversight, I don't think that misinterpretation should be a major factor limiting our use of the word legitimacy. I would, however, say that we want as many governments as possible to accept our process, and its results, as 'legitimate' in the broader sense of acceptable, trusted, fair, etc.
FWIW, I agree with Narelle and Heather about the potential interpretations of the word, and would personally prefer to avoid it. Just my 0.02... Jari
+1 -----Original Message----- From: internal-cg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Jari Arkko Sent: 17 July 2014 23:18 To: Milton L Mueller Cc: internal-cg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Narelle: on legitimacy FWIW, I agree with Narelle and Heather about the potential interpretations of the word, and would personally prefer to avoid it. Just my 0.02... Jari
Yet another +1. On 7/17/2014 6:30 PM, Martin Boyle wrote:
+1
-----Original Message----- From: internal-cg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Jari Arkko Sent: 17 July 2014 23:18 To: Milton L Mueller Cc: internal-cg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Narelle: on legitimacy
FWIW, I agree with Narelle and Heather about the potential interpretations of the word, and would personally prefer to avoid it. Just my 0.02...
Jari
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+1 more. Keith On 18/07/2014 10:46 a.m., joseph alhadeff wrote:
Yet another +1. On 7/17/2014 6:30 PM, Martin Boyle wrote:
+1
-----Original Message----- From: internal-cg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:internal-cg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Jari Arkko Sent: 17 July 2014 23:18 To: Milton L Mueller Cc: internal-cg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Internal-cg] Narelle: on legitimacy
FWIW, I agree with Narelle and Heather about the potential interpretations of the word, and would personally prefer to avoid it. Just my 0.02...
Jari
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participants (7)
-
dryden_h＠yahoo.ca -
Jari Arkko -
joseph alhadeff -
Keith Davidson -
Martin Boyle -
Milton L Mueller -
Narelle Clark