Public Board Meeting - the Update for Prague
I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting. Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role. First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest. Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'. I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive. - Carlton Samuels ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
Minority maybe, but not alone. Jacqueline A. Morris Technology should be like oxygen: Ubiquitous, Necessary, Invisible and Free. (after Chris Lehmann ) On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting.
Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role.
First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest.
Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'.
I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
I agree with you Carlton. Sure, the hard decisions were already decided "behind the scenes" so that there were no surprises. And yes, I suppose the board meeting transcript of such a ICANN Board meeting held after the conference can be done. But not seeing the body language of the ICANN Board as they explained their decisions on key issues in the history of ICANN (e.g .XXX , the launch of the new gTLD program) and also the sense of what the community felt as they listened to the statements, is lost. Hopefully, important issues to be decided by the ICANN Board would be done by special ICANN Board meetings such as the one held on Monday during the Singapore meeting, when the implementation of the new gTLD program was approved. Dev Anand On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting.
Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role.
First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest.
Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'.
I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
Dear All, I recall the Chair suggesting the removal of Friday and in a sense as Chair/Director he does have the authority to restructure or reformat the meeting style but would have thought that since it involves a wide range of stakeholders that there should have been some level of consultation on that. Maybe there were consultations but I missed it ??? Part of "transparency" is the ability for the public to see the nuances from body language whilst communicating. Kind Regards, Sala On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee@gmail.com>wrote:
I agree with you Carlton.
Sure, the hard decisions were already decided "behind the scenes" so that there were no surprises. And yes, I suppose the board meeting transcript of such a ICANN Board meeting held after the conference can be done.
But not seeing the body language of the ICANN Board as they explained their decisions on key issues in the history of ICANN (e.g .XXX , the launch of the new gTLD program) and also the sense of what the community felt as they listened to the statements, is lost.
Hopefully, important issues to be decided by the ICANN Board would be done by special ICANN Board meetings such as the one held on Monday during the Singapore meeting, when the implementation of the new gTLD program was approved.
Dev Anand
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting.
Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role.
First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest.
Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'.
I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala Tweeter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Cell: +679 998 2851
+ 1 Kind Regards, Sylvia Herlein Leite -----Mensagem original----- De: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Em nome de Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro Enviada em: lunes, 30 de abril de 2012 23:04 Para: At-Large Worldwide Cc: LACRALO discussion list Assunto: Re: [At-Large] [lac-discuss-en] Public Board Meeting - the Update for Prague Dear All, I recall the Chair suggesting the removal of Friday and in a sense as Chair/Director he does have the authority to restructure or reformat the meeting style but would have thought that since it involves a wide range of stakeholders that there should have been some level of consultation on that. Maybe there were consultations but I missed it ??? Part of "transparency" is the ability for the public to see the nuances from body language whilst communicating. Kind Regards, Sala On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee@gmail.com>wrote:
I agree with you Carlton.
Sure, the hard decisions were already decided "behind the scenes" so that there were no surprises. And yes, I suppose the board meeting transcript of such a ICANN Board meeting held after the conference can be done.
But not seeing the body language of the ICANN Board as they explained their decisions on key issues in the history of ICANN (e.g .XXX , the launch of the new gTLD program) and also the sense of what the community felt as they listened to the statements, is lost.
Hopefully, important issues to be decided by the ICANN Board would be done by special ICANN Board meetings such as the one held on Monday during the Singapore meeting, when the implementation of the new gTLD program was approved.
Dev Anand
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting.
Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role.
First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest.
Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'.
I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala Tweeter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
Dear all, I indeed had been asked about this and forwarded an enquiry to the ALAC working list. http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/alac/2012/002011.html But I was not able to get back to the Board with the views of our community (rather than my own views) before their announcement. I had no idea they were going to proceed without a proper consultation with the community. Kind regards, Olivier On 01/05/2012 03:03, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote :
Dear All,
I recall the Chair suggesting the removal of Friday and in a sense as Chair/Director he does have the authority to restructure or reformat the meeting style but would have thought that since it involves a wide range of stakeholders that there should have been some level of consultation on that. Maybe there were consultations but I missed it ???
Part of "transparency" is the ability for the public to see the nuances from body language whilst communicating.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee@gmail.com>wrote:
I agree with you Carlton.
Sure, the hard decisions were already decided "behind the scenes" so that there were no surprises. And yes, I suppose the board meeting transcript of such a ICANN Board meeting held after the conference can be done.
But not seeing the body language of the ICANN Board as they explained their decisions on key issues in the history of ICANN (e.g .XXX , the launch of the new gTLD program) and also the sense of what the community felt as they listened to the statements, is lost.
Hopefully, important issues to be decided by the ICANN Board would be done by special ICANN Board meetings such as the one held on Monday during the Singapore meeting, when the implementation of the new gTLD program was approved.
Dev Anand
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting.
Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role.
First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest.
Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'.
I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
Dear all, I am on your side on that matter. I am still struggling with this issue on the Board. I hope that part of the situation is a missing piece in the communication but not sure 100%. A public board meeting will take place during the week (if subject matter). All the best Sébastien Bachollet +33 6 07 66 89 33 Blog: http://sebastien.bachollet.fr/ Mail: Sébastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com> Le 02/05/12 00:54, « Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond » <ocl@gih.com> a écrit :
Dear all,
I indeed had been asked about this and forwarded an enquiry to the ALAC working list. http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/alac/2012/002011.html
But I was not able to get back to the Board with the views of our community (rather than my own views) before their announcement. I had no idea they were going to proceed without a proper consultation with the community.
Kind regards,
Olivier
On 01/05/2012 03:03, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote :
Dear All,
I recall the Chair suggesting the removal of Friday and in a sense as Chair/Director he does have the authority to restructure or reformat the meeting style but would have thought that since it involves a wide range of stakeholders that there should have been some level of consultation on that. Maybe there were consultations but I missed it ???
Part of "transparency" is the ability for the public to see the nuances from body language whilst communicating.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee@gmail.com>wrote:
I agree with you Carlton.
Sure, the hard decisions were already decided "behind the scenes" so that there were no surprises. And yes, I suppose the board meeting transcript of such a ICANN Board meeting held after the conference can be done.
But not seeing the body language of the ICANN Board as they explained their decisions on key issues in the history of ICANN (e.g .XXX , the launch of the new gTLD program) and also the sense of what the community felt as they listened to the statements, is lost.
Hopefully, important issues to be decided by the ICANN Board would be done by special ICANN Board meetings such as the one held on Monday during the Singapore meeting, when the implementation of the new gTLD program was approved.
Dev Anand
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting.
Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role.
First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest.
Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'.
I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
I am in two minds about this. If the board is transparent in all its meetings, and increasingly it is trying to be, then ending a day early might work well. The meetings are starting earlier, I think most of us (except perhaps when the meeting's in our region) start to travel on a working day before the formal week of a meeting and often get back on a Sunday or later. For the board it's becoming almost 2 weeks. We're a volunteer community that's perhaps asking too much of our employers. And I don't know how staff manage, from 7 to late for over a week (jet lagged.) But. Loosing reports from the SOs and ACs matters (even at 8am...) Important that reports are read into the record, and important the directors sitting formally as the board are to be able to ask questions, the community also. And the Board meeting isn't just a show. Important comments often made. I recently had reason to refer to Mike Silber's comments on outreach made during the board meeting (attached). A statement much more powerful because it was made during an on record meeting of the board rather than teleconference or at the public forum. Would be a terrible to loose this. And thanking people --outgoing volunteers, the hosts-- is an important formality. If 3 or 4 hours on Friday is lost, where can it be squeezed during the week? Mike Palage noted there were 3 other board meetings during the Costa Rica meeting (minutes etc online). The board has an enormous amount for work to do. But if they meet when scribing's available, they should make use of it (we don't even have to be in the room, anyone with a laptop/smart phone can follow the text stream). Might be the right decision, but some public discussion before it was taken would have been helpful. And if's to happen, then transcripts of all board meetings please. Adam On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Sébastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com> wrote:
Dear all, I am on your side on that matter. I am still struggling with this issue on the Board. I hope that part of the situation is a missing piece in the communication but not sure 100%. A public board meeting will take place during the week (if subject matter). All the best Sébastien Bachollet +33 6 07 66 89 33 Blog: http://sebastien.bachollet.fr/ Mail: Sébastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com>
Le 02/05/12 00:54, « Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond » <ocl@gih.com> a écrit :
Dear all,
I indeed had been asked about this and forwarded an enquiry to the ALAC working list. http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/alac/2012/002011.html
But I was not able to get back to the Board with the views of our community (rather than my own views) before their announcement. I had no idea they were going to proceed without a proper consultation with the community.
Kind regards,
Olivier
On 01/05/2012 03:03, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote :
Dear All,
I recall the Chair suggesting the removal of Friday and in a sense as Chair/Director he does have the authority to restructure or reformat the meeting style but would have thought that since it involves a wide range of stakeholders that there should have been some level of consultation on that. Maybe there were consultations but I missed it ???
Part of "transparency" is the ability for the public to see the nuances from body language whilst communicating.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee@gmail.com>wrote:
I agree with you Carlton.
Sure, the hard decisions were already decided "behind the scenes" so that there were no surprises. And yes, I suppose the board meeting transcript of such a ICANN Board meeting held after the conference can be done.
But not seeing the body language of the ICANN Board as they explained their decisions on key issues in the history of ICANN (e.g .XXX , the launch of the new gTLD program) and also the sense of what the community felt as they listened to the statements, is lost.
Hopefully, important issues to be decided by the ICANN Board would be done by special ICANN Board meetings such as the one held on Monday during the Singapore meeting, when the implementation of the new gTLD program was approved.
Dev Anand
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting.
Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role.
First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest.
Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'.
I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
Adam: I understand your concerns and while not fully supportive of my position, you actually added several reasons to this conversation that makes me even more resolute on my position. Many thanks for sharing the comments from Mike Silber. - Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 6:50 AM, Adam Peake <ajp@glocom.ac.jp> wrote:
I am in two minds about this. If the board is transparent in all its meetings, and increasingly it is trying to be, then ending a day early might work well. The meetings are starting earlier, I think most of us (except perhaps when the meeting's in our region) start to travel on a working day before the formal week of a meeting and often get back on a Sunday or later. For the board it's becoming almost 2 weeks. We're a volunteer community that's perhaps asking too much of our employers. And I don't know how staff manage, from 7 to late for over a week (jet lagged.)
But. Loosing reports from the SOs and ACs matters (even at 8am...) Important that reports are read into the record, and important the directors sitting formally as the board are to be able to ask questions, the community also.
And the Board meeting isn't just a show. Important comments often made. I recently had reason to refer to Mike Silber's comments on outreach made during the board meeting (attached). A statement much more powerful because it was made during an on record meeting of the board rather than teleconference or at the public forum. Would be a terrible to loose this.
And thanking people --outgoing volunteers, the hosts-- is an important formality.
If 3 or 4 hours on Friday is lost, where can it be squeezed during the week?
Mike Palage noted there were 3 other board meetings during the Costa Rica meeting (minutes etc online). The board has an enormous amount for work to do. But if they meet when scribing's available, they should make use of it (we don't even have to be in the room, anyone with a laptop/smart phone can follow the text stream).
Might be the right decision, but some public discussion before it was taken would have been helpful. And if's to happen, then transcripts of all board meetings please.
Adam
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Sébastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com> wrote:
Dear all, I am on your side on that matter. I am still struggling with this issue on the Board. I hope that part of the situation is a missing piece in the communication but not sure 100%. A public board meeting will take place during the week (if subject matter). All the best Sébastien Bachollet +33 6 07 66 89 33 Blog: http://sebastien.bachollet.fr/ Mail: Sébastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com>
Le 02/05/12 00:54, « Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond » <ocl@gih.com> a écrit :
Dear all,
I indeed had been asked about this and forwarded an enquiry to the ALAC working list. http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/alac/2012/002011.html
But I was not able to get back to the Board with the views of our community (rather than my own views) before their announcement. I had no idea they were going to proceed without a proper consultation with the community.
Kind regards,
Olivier
On 01/05/2012 03:03, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote :
Dear All,
I recall the Chair suggesting the removal of Friday and in a sense as Chair/Director he does have the authority to restructure or reformat the meeting style but would have thought that since it involves a wide range of stakeholders that there should have been some level of consultation on that. Maybe there were consultations but I missed it ???
Part of "transparency" is the ability for the public to see the nuances from body language whilst communicating.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee@gmail.com>wrote:
I agree with you Carlton.
Sure, the hard decisions were already decided "behind the scenes" so that there were no surprises. And yes, I suppose the board meeting transcript of such a ICANN Board meeting held after the conference can be done.
But not seeing the body language of the ICANN Board as they explained their decisions on key issues in the history of ICANN (e.g .XXX , the launch of the new gTLD program) and also the sense of what the community felt as they listened to the statements, is lost.
Hopefully, important issues to be decided by the ICANN Board would be done by special ICANN Board meetings such as the one held on Monday during the Singapore meeting, when the implementation of the new gTLD program was approved.
Dev Anand
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting.
Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role.
First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest.
Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'.
I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
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It occurs that I've not been to ICANN physically for over ten years now. Does this change mean that taking questions from the floor will cease? That was about the most useful thing in ICANN meetings to have the board interacting with attendees directly for at least one session. Christian On 2 May 2012, at 12:50, Adam Peake wrote:
I am in two minds about this. If the board is transparent in all its meetings, and increasingly it is trying to be, then ending a day early might work well. The meetings are starting earlier, I think most of us (except perhaps when the meeting's in our region) start to travel on a working day before the formal week of a meeting and often get back on a Sunday or later. For the board it's becoming almost 2 weeks. We're a volunteer community that's perhaps asking too much of our employers. And I don't know how staff manage, from 7 to late for over a week (jet lagged.)
But. Loosing reports from the SOs and ACs matters (even at 8am...) Important that reports are read into the record, and important the directors sitting formally as the board are to be able to ask questions, the community also.
And the Board meeting isn't just a show. Important comments often made. I recently had reason to refer to Mike Silber's comments on outreach made during the board meeting (attached). A statement much more powerful because it was made during an on record meeting of the board rather than teleconference or at the public forum. Would be a terrible to loose this.
And thanking people --outgoing volunteers, the hosts-- is an important formality.
If 3 or 4 hours on Friday is lost, where can it be squeezed during the week?
Mike Palage noted there were 3 other board meetings during the Costa Rica meeting (minutes etc online). The board has an enormous amount for work to do. But if they meet when scribing's available, they should make use of it (we don't even have to be in the room, anyone with a laptop/smart phone can follow the text stream).
Might be the right decision, but some public discussion before it was taken would have been helpful. And if's to happen, then transcripts of all board meetings please.
Adam
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Sébastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com> wrote:
Dear all, I am on your side on that matter. I am still struggling with this issue on the Board. I hope that part of the situation is a missing piece in the communication but not sure 100%. A public board meeting will take place during the week (if subject matter). All the best Sébastien Bachollet +33 6 07 66 89 33 Blog: http://sebastien.bachollet.fr/ Mail: Sébastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com>
Le 02/05/12 00:54, « Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond » <ocl@gih.com> a écrit :
Dear all,
I indeed had been asked about this and forwarded an enquiry to the ALAC working list. http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/alac/2012/002011.html
But I was not able to get back to the Board with the views of our community (rather than my own views) before their announcement. I had no idea they were going to proceed without a proper consultation with the community.
Kind regards,
Olivier
On 01/05/2012 03:03, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote :
Dear All,
I recall the Chair suggesting the removal of Friday and in a sense as Chair/Director he does have the authority to restructure or reformat the meeting style but would have thought that since it involves a wide range of stakeholders that there should have been some level of consultation on that. Maybe there were consultations but I missed it ???
Part of "transparency" is the ability for the public to see the nuances from body language whilst communicating.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee@gmail.com>wrote:
I agree with you Carlton.
Sure, the hard decisions were already decided "behind the scenes" so that there were no surprises. And yes, I suppose the board meeting transcript of such a ICANN Board meeting held after the conference can be done.
But not seeing the body language of the ICANN Board as they explained their decisions on key issues in the history of ICANN (e.g .XXX , the launch of the new gTLD program) and also the sense of what the community felt as they listened to the statements, is lost.
Hopefully, important issues to be decided by the ICANN Board would be done by special ICANN Board meetings such as the one held on Monday during the Singapore meeting, when the implementation of the new gTLD program was approved.
Dev Anand
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting.
Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role.
First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest.
Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'.
I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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Hi, No, they do not seem to have canceled the open fora. At least, not yet. Who knows what they will find superfluous next? avri On 4 May 2012, at 04:05, Christian de Larrinaga wrote:
It occurs that I've not been to ICANN physically for over ten years now. Does this change mean that taking questions from the floor will cease? That was about the most useful thing in ICANN meetings to have the board interacting with attendees directly for at least one session.
Christian
On 2 May 2012, at 12:50, Adam Peake wrote:
I am in two minds about this. If the board is transparent in all its meetings, and increasingly it is trying to be, then ending a day early might work well. The meetings are starting earlier, I think most of us (except perhaps when the meeting's in our region) start to travel on a working day before the formal week of a meeting and often get back on a Sunday or later. For the board it's becoming almost 2 weeks. We're a volunteer community that's perhaps asking too much of our employers. And I don't know how staff manage, from 7 to late for over a week (jet lagged.)
But. Loosing reports from the SOs and ACs matters (even at 8am...) Important that reports are read into the record, and important the directors sitting formally as the board are to be able to ask questions, the community also.
And the Board meeting isn't just a show. Important comments often made. I recently had reason to refer to Mike Silber's comments on outreach made during the board meeting (attached). A statement much more powerful because it was made during an on record meeting of the board rather than teleconference or at the public forum. Would be a terrible to loose this.
And thanking people --outgoing volunteers, the hosts-- is an important formality.
If 3 or 4 hours on Friday is lost, where can it be squeezed during the week?
Mike Palage noted there were 3 other board meetings during the Costa Rica meeting (minutes etc online). The board has an enormous amount for work to do. But if they meet when scribing's available, they should make use of it (we don't even have to be in the room, anyone with a laptop/smart phone can follow the text stream).
Might be the right decision, but some public discussion before it was taken would have been helpful. And if's to happen, then transcripts of all board meetings please.
Adam
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 5:50 PM, Sébastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com> wrote:
Dear all, I am on your side on that matter. I am still struggling with this issue on the Board. I hope that part of the situation is a missing piece in the communication but not sure 100%. A public board meeting will take place during the week (if subject matter). All the best Sébastien Bachollet +33 6 07 66 89 33 Blog: http://sebastien.bachollet.fr/ Mail: Sébastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com>
Le 02/05/12 00:54, « Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond » <ocl@gih.com> a écrit :
Dear all,
I indeed had been asked about this and forwarded an enquiry to the ALAC working list. http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/alac/2012/002011.html
But I was not able to get back to the Board with the views of our community (rather than my own views) before their announcement. I had no idea they were going to proceed without a proper consultation with the community.
Kind regards,
Olivier
On 01/05/2012 03:03, Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro wrote :
Dear All,
I recall the Chair suggesting the removal of Friday and in a sense as Chair/Director he does have the authority to restructure or reformat the meeting style but would have thought that since it involves a wide range of stakeholders that there should have been some level of consultation on that. Maybe there were consultations but I missed it ???
Part of "transparency" is the ability for the public to see the nuances from body language whilst communicating.
Kind Regards, Sala
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee@gmail.com>wrote:
I agree with you Carlton.
Sure, the hard decisions were already decided "behind the scenes" so that there were no surprises. And yes, I suppose the board meeting transcript of such a ICANN Board meeting held after the conference can be done.
But not seeing the body language of the ICANN Board as they explained their decisions on key issues in the history of ICANN (e.g .XXX , the launch of the new gTLD program) and also the sense of what the community felt as they listened to the statements, is lost.
Hopefully, important issues to be decided by the ICANN Board would be done by special ICANN Board meetings such as the one held on Monday during the Singapore meeting, when the implementation of the new gTLD program was approved.
Dev Anand
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 6:59 PM, Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> wrote: > I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual > 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting. > > Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough > with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally > intended; > theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role. > > First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder > organisation and > while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was > an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having > regard > the global public interest. > > Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an > outside > chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of > participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always > straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever > mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the > voice of > Jacob'. > > I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. > It > was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told > a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. > Aferall, > the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, > it is instructive. > > - Carlton Samuels > > ============================== > Carlton A Samuels > Mobile: 876-818-1799 > *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* > ============================= > _______________________________________________ > lac-discuss-en mailing list > lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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Carlton, I widely agree with you. ---------------------------------------------------------------- Tijani BEN JEMAA Vice Président de la CIC Fédération Mondiale des Organisations dIngénieurs Téléphone : + 216 70 825 231 Tél Mobile : + 216 98 330 114 Télécopie : + 216 70 825 231 ---------------------------------------------------------------- -----Message d'origine----- De : at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] De la part de Carlton Samuels Envoyé : mardi 1 mai 2012 00:00 À : At-Large Worldwide; lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Objet : [At-Large] Public Board Meeting - the Update for Prague I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting. Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role. First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest. Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'. I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive. - Carlton Samuels ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org ----- Aucun virus trouvé dans ce message. Analyse effectuée par AVG - www.avg.fr Version: 10.0.1390 / Base de données virale: 1518/3785 - Date: 24/07/2011 La Base de données des virus a expiré.
I agree with Carlton. Although about 75% of the board meetings are boring, there have definitely been a few interesting ones where you could see the Board Member's body language and personality shine through (.xxx, new gTLDs, and a few others). When its a hot topic, the Board meetings are very insightful. D Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] on behalf of Carlton Samuels [carlton.samuels@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 6:59 PM To: At-Large Worldwide; lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: [At-Large] Public Board Meeting - the Update for Prague I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting. Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role. First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest. Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'. I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive. - Carlton Samuels ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
I agree that this is a loss of transparency and find the decision deplorable. It is another step in the wrong direction for a institution that is supposedly committed to increasing transparency for its multistakeholder participants. And to make such a decision without even consulting the community, yet another example of the trend toward the Imperial Board. It is a pity. avri On 3 May 2012, at 13:05, Thompson, Darlene wrote:
I agree with Carlton. Although about 75% of the board meetings are boring, there have definitely been a few interesting ones where you could see the Board Member's body language and personality shine through (.xxx, new gTLDs, and a few others). When its a hot topic, the Board meetings are very insightful.
D
Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] on behalf of Carlton Samuels [carlton.samuels@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 6:59 PM To: At-Large Worldwide; lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: [At-Large] Public Board Meeting - the Update for Prague
I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting.
Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role.
First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest.
Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'.
I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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I completely agree. This is a bad move, and another example of ICANN's damaging tone deafness. I do not understand how anyone could think that this is consonant with the common understanding of the spirit of the AoC. Antony On May 3, 2012, at 11:02 AM, Avri Doria wrote:
I agree that this is a loss of transparency and find the decision deplorable. It is another step in the wrong direction for a institution that is supposedly committed to increasing transparency for its multistakeholder participants.
And to make such a decision without even consulting the community, yet another example of the trend toward the Imperial Board.
It is a pity.
avri
On 3 May 2012, at 13:05, Thompson, Darlene wrote:
I agree with Carlton. Although about 75% of the board meetings are boring, there have definitely been a few interesting ones where you could see the Board Member's body language and personality shine through (.xxx, new gTLDs, and a few others). When its a hot topic, the Board meetings are very insightful.
D
Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] on behalf of Carlton Samuels [carlton.samuels@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, April 30, 2012 6:59 PM To: At-Large Worldwide; lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: [At-Large] Public Board Meeting - the Update for Prague
I'm sure I may be in the minority to bemoan the passing of the usual 'public' Friday morning ICANN Board meeting.
Let us be clear I'm not just hopped off the truck here. I'm familiar enough with these matters to recognize it for what it is principally intended; theatre. But in the ICANN context, even crafted theatre has its role.
First, I truly believe that for a claimed multistakeholder organisation and while the 'public' board meeting may not have been all it could be, it was an important indicator or attribute of the MSM, especially having regard the global public interest.
Secondly, even if the votes are already taken, there existed an outside chance that one may witness truly revealing 'body language' of participants. Maybe its because for most of my life I have always straddled several socio-political realities. But I am socialized to be ever mindful that one may 'feel the hand of Esau even as you hear the voice of Jacob'.
I can still hear Susan Crawford's cathartic farewell speech in 2008. It was remarkable, the response in body language of several board members told a story. I will concede it may not mean much, then and there. Aferall, the deed is done and the die is cast. But when the 'fire next time' comes, it is instructive.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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participants (13)
-
Adam Peake -
Antony Van Couvering -
Avri Doria -
Carlton Samuels -
Christian de Larrinaga -
Dev Anand Teelucksingh -
Jacqueline Morris -
Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond -
Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro -
sylvia＠prontocl.com.br -
Sébastien Bachollet -
Thompson, Darlene -
tijani.benjemaa＠planet.tn