Re: [lac-discuss-en] Election Results Comments
There is a saying in English: 'Where ignorance is bliss, it is folly to be wise'. There is another one: "the law is too important to leave to lawyers". I do not know their equivalencies in Spanish and a word by word translation would be inadequate. Our LACRALO machine translation will be crude, at best. Nevertheless, I shall not attempt one here. We have always know that there is a reservoir of ignorance of LACRALO rules. More to point, ignorance of how they apply is really acute. The sad fact is this ignorance is demonstrated by some of our colleagues who, by virtue of their profession, one would least expect. Without any fear of contradiction I now make this declaration: Any LACRALO election in San Jose would have been illegal for lack of proper notice. In my part of the world, notice is a pre-requisite for democratic elections. This is because they are processes, not just one event. Take any junta of the kind we witness time and again in the LAC region and I can demonstrate that even they know this. I know for certain that our democratically-elected friend, Hugo, knows this. [To the chagrin of his opponents! :-)] Notice typically has three elements; time, duration and content. A violation of any element condemns the notice. The attempt to call an immediate LACRALO election at San Jose by invoking the full UNGA Rules as authority [and allowed under LACRALO rules!] would have also been in violation. Not only for the violation of the notice period. But the process by which the voting event would have been taken on the agenda would not have saved the day. That would have had one effect, to add the matter to the agenda. A notice period plus candidates are still necessary for the election. In addition to all that, the member on whose behalf the attempt to hasten the election is being executed VOLUNTARILY withdrew HIS element of notice from the Agenda. In other words, the member, maybe unwittingly, fouled his own pool. Those of us opposed to the barefaced violation of the rules would not have to do anything more. So now, let's speak to the concerns for poor use of ICANN funds raised in this thread. Here is a phrase that works here: 'La historia me absolvera'. Most of you would probably not know but ever since 2006, there has been an enduring nucleus of opposition for ICANN travel support to the At-Large attending ICANN meetings. This opposition is largely from North America, among persons associated with the placeholder ALAC the new RALO included structure replaced. The most corrosive criticism alleged that At-Large participants who received travel support for ICANN meetings were really tourists first. Their involvement in the At-Large agenda at the meetings was secondary. This criticism was leveled at the At-Large in general but to my mind, sharply directed at members from LAC and Africa. Several recorded observations placed members from LACRALO at the centre of these criticisms. To be brutally frank, one of our members was the THE poster boy for this abuse. I have, in good nature, endured severe personal criticism because I opposed any attempt to publicly censure those deemed guilty. Some of my colleagues interpreted my opposition as protecting a certain LACRALO member - who shall remain nameless here. More thoughtful others recognized it for what it was; defense of a principle rather than personalities. All that aside, this member has enjoyed my support for other At-large duties. Yes, you guessed right. This member actually solicited my support for other positions. And yes, because of the larger strategic interests, I gave it. By now, some of you might have also guessed my loathing for hypocrisy and all its works. One is supposed to celebrate conversion, as it were, to 'the one true faith'. At least, that is the Christian tradition. Count me as a reliable skeptic. Because to be frank, this latest conversion we witness is really over the top. It is nothing more than a rancid example of enlightened self-interest. That is the word. - Carlton Samuels ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:18 PM, <cveraq@gmail.com> wrote:
[[--Translated text (es -> en)--]]
Subject: Re: =? Windows-1252? Q? Resultados_de_la_Elecci = F3n_de_? == Windows-1252? Q? = 09L = 09a_Secretar = EDa_de_LACRALO_t = E9rmino_de_un_? == Windows-1252? Q? A = F1o_ = 09de_04_de_ = 09mayo_2012 ? = From: cveraq@gmail.com
Incredible .. And those are the people demanding commitment and demand .. # Prohibidoolvidar
While we are not transparent, conscious of our responsibilities and understand that not everything revolves around our personal interests, the region will continue dependent.
Today we strongly believe in a good team without conditions.
Carlos Vera ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alberto Soto" <asoto@ibero-americano.org> Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 00:11:41 To: <salgueiro.jo@gmail.com> ; <cveraq@gmail.com> ; 'LACRALO Spanish' < lac-discuss-es@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Cc: <lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: RE: [lac-discuss-en] Results of the choice of l trmino LACRALO to secrete a year of 04 May 2012
I agree with the view of the precious time lost in Costa Rica, in addition ICANN payment of money, just for personal interests that harm us all. A general assembly can not be lost completely only two people present. ICANN is a lot of money and OUR, and long staff of each of us invested. Best Regards
Alberto Soto
----- Original Message ----- From: lac-discuss-es-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [Mailto: lac-discuss-es-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jose Ovidio Salgueiro A. Posted on: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:09 pm To: cveraq@gmail.com; LACRALO Espaol CC: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Results of the election of the secrete of LACRALO trmino of one year from May 4, 2012
Congratulations to Sylvia by Josy strong result.
This leads me to think that the ridiculous we did in the Assembly in San Josfue unnecessary since this result was the same as hubiramos all obtained.
The Caribbean was not able or San Josni now to put a candidate with the capacity for a votacin important.
I hope that now if you can work as expected in our organization and without the narrow interests that previously demonstrated
JosSalgueiro
Sent from my BlackBerry Movistar
My Dear Bro. We have coincidence in almost 90% of your words. I know what do you want to say, I feel and live like you in many things, And you know that my position is the true that I believe, more than some strategies or diferences in the political positions. But when is needed to be clear, sometimes we must be rude. I think is this in where our positions dont find coincidence. Your words were very strong, but without names, and I felt that we needed names also in your words. We need to start to say names. Because in a contrary case all in the region are involved, and many of them being not guilty for that. It my humble thought. My permanent enormous affectionate Carlos Dionisio Aguirre NCA GNSO Council - ICANN former ALAC member by LACRALO Abogado - Especialista en Derecho de los Negocios Sarmiento 71 - 4to. 18 Cordoba - Argentina - *54-351-424-2123 / 423-5423 http://ar.ageiadensi.org
From: carlton.samuels@gmail.com Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 13:12:21 -0500 To: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Election Results Comments
There is a saying in English: 'Where ignorance is bliss, it is folly to be wise'.
There is another one: "the law is too important to leave to lawyers".
I do not know their equivalencies in Spanish and a word by word translation would be inadequate. Our LACRALO machine translation will be crude, at best. Nevertheless, I shall not attempt one here.
We have always know that there is a reservoir of ignorance of LACRALO rules. More to point, ignorance of how they apply is really acute. The sad fact is this ignorance is demonstrated by some of our colleagues who, by virtue of their profession, one would least expect.
Without any fear of contradiction I now make this declaration: Any LACRALO election in San Jose would have been illegal for lack of proper notice.
In my part of the world, notice is a pre-requisite for democratic elections. This is because they are processes, not just one event. Take any junta of the kind we witness time and again in the LAC region and I can demonstrate that even they know this.
I know for certain that our democratically-elected friend, Hugo, knows this. [To the chagrin of his opponents! :-)]
Notice typically has three elements; time, duration and content. A violation of any element condemns the notice.
The attempt to call an immediate LACRALO election at San Jose by invoking the full UNGA Rules as authority [and allowed under LACRALO rules!] would have also been in violation.
Not only for the violation of the notice period. But the process by which the voting event would have been taken on the agenda would not have saved the day. That would have had one effect, to add the matter to the agenda. A notice period plus candidates are still necessary for the election.
In addition to all that, the member on whose behalf the attempt to hasten the election is being executed VOLUNTARILY withdrew HIS element of notice from the Agenda.
In other words, the member, maybe unwittingly, fouled his own pool. Those of us opposed to the barefaced violation of the rules would not have to do anything more.
So now, let's speak to the concerns for poor use of ICANN funds raised in this thread. Here is a phrase that works here: 'La historia me absolvera'.
Most of you would probably not know but ever since 2006, there has been an enduring nucleus of opposition for ICANN travel support to the At-Large attending ICANN meetings. This opposition is largely from North America, among persons associated with the placeholder ALAC the new RALO included structure replaced.
The most corrosive criticism alleged that At-Large participants who received travel support for ICANN meetings were really tourists first. Their involvement in the At-Large agenda at the meetings was secondary.
This criticism was leveled at the At-Large in general but to my mind, sharply directed at members from LAC and Africa.
Several recorded observations placed members from LACRALO at the centre of these criticisms. To be brutally frank, one of our members was the THE poster boy for this abuse.
I have, in good nature, endured severe personal criticism because I opposed any attempt to publicly censure those deemed guilty. Some of my colleagues interpreted my opposition as protecting a certain LACRALO member - who shall remain nameless here. More thoughtful others recognized it for what it was; defense of a principle rather than personalities.
All that aside, this member has enjoyed my support for other At-large duties. Yes, you guessed right. This member actually solicited my support for other positions. And yes, because of the larger strategic interests, I gave it.
By now, some of you might have also guessed my loathing for hypocrisy and all its works. One is supposed to celebrate conversion, as it were, to 'the one true faith'. At least, that is the Christian tradition.
Count me as a reliable skeptic. Because to be frank, this latest conversion we witness is really over the top. It is nothing more than a rancid example of enlightened self-interest.
That is the word.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:18 PM, <cveraq@gmail.com> wrote:
[[--Translated text (es -> en)--]]
Subject: Re: =? Windows-1252? Q? Resultados_de_la_Elecci = F3n_de_? == Windows-1252? Q? = 09L = 09a_Secretar = EDa_de_LACRALO_t = E9rmino_de_un_? == Windows-1252? Q? A = F1o_ = 09de_04_de_ = 09mayo_2012 ? = From: cveraq@gmail.com
Incredible .. And those are the people demanding commitment and demand .. # Prohibidoolvidar
While we are not transparent, conscious of our responsibilities and understand that not everything revolves around our personal interests, the region will continue dependent.
Today we strongly believe in a good team without conditions.
Carlos Vera ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alberto Soto" <asoto@ibero-americano.org> Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 00:11:41 To: <salgueiro.jo@gmail.com> ; <cveraq@gmail.com> ; 'LACRALO Spanish' < lac-discuss-es@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Cc: <lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: RE: [lac-discuss-en] Results of the choice of l trmino LACRALO to secrete a year of 04 May 2012
I agree with the view of the precious time lost in Costa Rica, in addition ICANN payment of money, just for personal interests that harm us all. A general assembly can not be lost completely only two people present. ICANN is a lot of money and OUR, and long staff of each of us invested. Best Regards
Alberto Soto
----- Original Message ----- From: lac-discuss-es-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [Mailto: lac-discuss-es-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jose Ovidio Salgueiro A. Posted on: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:09 pm To: cveraq@gmail.com; LACRALO Espaol CC: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Results of the election of the secrete of LACRALO trmino of one year from May 4, 2012
Congratulations to Sylvia by Josy strong result.
This leads me to think that the ridiculous we did in the Assembly in San Josfue unnecessary since this result was the same as hubiramos all obtained.
The Caribbean was not able or San Josni now to put a candidate with the capacity for a votacin important.
I hope that now if you can work as expected in our organization and without the narrow interests that previously demonstrated
JosSalgueiro
Sent from my BlackBerry Movistar
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
Bro Carlos: You are right on fact as well as strategy. I cannot disagree with you here. With the greatest respect and affection. - Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 3:57 PM, carlos dionisio aguirre < carlosaguirre62@hotmail.com> wrote:
My Dear Bro. We have coincidence in almost 90% of your words. I know what do you want to say, I feel and live like you in many things, And you know that my position is the true that I believe, more than some strategies or diferences in the political positions. But when is needed to be clear, sometimes we must be rude. I think is this in where our positions dont find coincidence. Your words were very strong, but without names, and I felt that we needed names also in your words. We need to start to say names. Because in a contrary case all in the region are involved, and many of them being not guilty for that. It my humble thought.
My permanent enormous affectionate
Carlos Dionisio Aguirre NCA GNSO Council - ICANN former ALAC member by LACRALO Abogado - Especialista en Derecho de los Negocios Sarmiento 71 - 4to. 18 Cordoba - Argentina - *54-351-424-2123 / 423-5423 http://ar.ageiadensi.org
From: carlton.samuels@gmail.com Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 13:12:21 -0500 To: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Election Results Comments
There is a saying in English: 'Where ignorance is bliss, it is folly to
be
wise'.
There is another one: "the law is too important to leave to lawyers".
I do not know their equivalencies in Spanish and a word by word translation would be inadequate. Our LACRALO machine translation will be crude, at best. Nevertheless, I shall not attempt one here.
We have always know that there is a reservoir of ignorance of LACRALO rules. More to point, ignorance of how they apply is really acute. The sad fact is this ignorance is demonstrated by some of our colleagues who, by virtue of their profession, one would least expect.
Without any fear of contradiction I now make this declaration: Any LACRALO election in San Jose would have been illegal for lack of proper notice.
In my part of the world, notice is a pre-requisite for democratic elections. This is because they are processes, not just one event. Take any junta of the kind we witness time and again in the LAC region and I can demonstrate that even they know this.
I know for certain that our democratically-elected friend, Hugo, knows this. [To the chagrin of his opponents! :-)]
Notice typically has three elements; time, duration and content. A violation of any element condemns the notice.
The attempt to call an immediate LACRALO election at San Jose by invoking the full UNGA Rules as authority [and allowed under LACRALO rules!] would have also been in violation.
Not only for the violation of the notice period. But the process by which the voting event would have been taken on the agenda would not have saved the day. That would have had one effect, to add the matter to the agenda. A notice period plus candidates are still necessary for the election.
In addition to all that, the member on whose behalf the attempt to hasten the election is being executed VOLUNTARILY withdrew HIS element of notice from the Agenda.
In other words, the member, maybe unwittingly, fouled his own pool. Those of us opposed to the barefaced violation of the rules would not have to do anything more.
So now, let's speak to the concerns for poor use of ICANN funds raised in this thread. Here is a phrase that works here: 'La historia me absolvera'.
Most of you would probably not know but ever since 2006, there has been an enduring nucleus of opposition for ICANN travel support to the At-Large attending ICANN meetings. This opposition is largely from North America, among persons associated with the placeholder ALAC the new RALO included structure replaced.
The most corrosive criticism alleged that At-Large participants who received travel support for ICANN meetings were really tourists first. Their involvement in the At-Large agenda at the meetings was secondary.
This criticism was leveled at the At-Large in general but to my mind, sharply directed at members from LAC and Africa.
Several recorded observations placed members from LACRALO at the centre of these criticisms. To be brutally frank, one of our members was the THE poster boy for this abuse.
I have, in good nature, endured severe personal criticism because I opposed any attempt to publicly censure those deemed guilty. Some of my colleagues interpreted my opposition as protecting a certain LACRALO member - who shall remain nameless here. More thoughtful others recognized it for what it was; defense of a principle rather than personalities.
All that aside, this member has enjoyed my support for other At-large duties. Yes, you guessed right. This member actually solicited my support for other positions. And yes, because of the larger strategic interests, I gave it.
By now, some of you might have also guessed my loathing for hypocrisy and all its works. One is supposed to celebrate conversion, as it were, to 'the one true faith'. At least, that is the Christian tradition.
Count me as a reliable skeptic. Because to be frank, this latest conversion we witness is really over the top. It is nothing more than a rancid example of enlightened self-interest.
That is the word.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
=============================
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:18 PM, <cveraq@gmail.com> wrote:
[[--Translated text (es -> en)--]]
Subject: Re: =? Windows-1252? Q? Resultados_de_la_Elecci = F3n_de_? == Windows-1252? Q? = 09L = 09a_Secretar = EDa_de_LACRALO_t =
E9rmino_de_un_?
== Windows-1252? Q? A = F1o_ = 09de_04_de_ = 09mayo_2012 ? = From: cveraq@gmail.com
Incredible .. And those are the people demanding commitment and demand .. # Prohibidoolvidar
While we are not transparent, conscious of our responsibilities and understand that not everything revolves around our personal interests, the region will continue dependent.
Today we strongly believe in a good team without conditions.
Carlos Vera ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alberto Soto" <asoto@ibero-americano.org> Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 00:11:41 To: <salgueiro.jo@gmail.com> ; <cveraq@gmail.com> ; 'LACRALO Spanish' < lac-discuss-es@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Cc: <lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: RE: [lac-discuss-en] Results of the choice of l trmino LACRALO to secrete a year of 04 May 2012
I agree with the view of the precious time lost in Costa Rica, in addition ICANN payment of money, just for personal interests that harm us all. A general assembly can not be lost completely only two people present. ICANN is a lot of money and OUR, and long staff of each of us invested. Best Regards
Alberto Soto
----- Original Message ----- From: lac-discuss-es-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [Mailto: lac-discuss-es-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jose Ovidio Salgueiro A. Posted on: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:09 pm To: cveraq@gmail.com; LACRALO Espaol CC: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Results of the election of the secrete of LACRALO trmino of one year from May 4, 2012
Congratulations to Sylvia by Josy strong result.
This leads me to think that the ridiculous we did in the Assembly in San Josfue unnecessary since this result was the same as hubiramos all obtained.
The Caribbean was not able or San Josni now to put a candidate with the capacity for a votacin important.
I hope that now if you can work as expected in our organization and without the narrow interests that previously demonstrated
JosSalgueiro
Sent from my BlackBerry Movistar
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
Dear Carlton: with all due respect, I want to share my vision with you. There is a saying in English: 'Where ignorance is bliss, it is folly to be wise'. There is another one: "the law is too important to leave to lawyers". I do not know their equivalencies in Spanish and a word by word translation would be inadequate. Our LACRALO machine translation will be crude, at best. Nevertheless, I shall not attempt one here. We have always known that there is a reservoir of ignorance of LACRALO rules. More to point, ignorance of how they apply is really acute. The sad fact is this ignorance is demonstrated by some of our colleagues who, by virtue of their profession, one would least expect. I do not like “saying”, because is better speak or write directly, so in this way people can understand better what you are trying to say, even more if many of them do not speak English. I see your words as a disparagement of others or for some profession (there is a common mistake in people and that is to put forward a profession by the person), and that is not the vision that has to have a leader of the region, because we are all pairs, some people has more experience than others, some work more than others, some of them find it more difficult than others, and the Key is not to criticize, the key is to build cooperative and collaborative dialogues. We have to ask ourselves “What we did to be at this point?” What we did to fix it? What we plan to overcome the difficulties? Without any fear of contradiction I now make this declaration: Any LACRALO election in San Jose would have been illegal for lack of proper notice. In my part of the world, notice is a pre-requisite for democratic elections. This is because they are processes, not just one event. Take any junta of the kind we witness time and again in the LAC region and I can demonstrate that even they know this. Your part of the world is my part of the world too (we have only one world). And without fear I say that I share with you the meaning of democratic. I know for certain that our democratically-elected friend, Hugo, knows this. [To the chagrin of his opponents! :-)] Notice typically has three elements; time, duration and content. A violation of any element condemns the notice. The attempt to call an immediate LACRALO election at San Jose by invoking the full UNGA Rules as authority [and allowed under LACRALO rules!] would have also been in violation. Not only for the violation of the notice period. But the process by which the voting event would have been taken on the agenda would not have saved the day. That would have had one effect, to add the matter to the agenda. A notice period plus candidates are still necessary for the election. In addition to all that, the member on whose behalf the attempt to hasten the election is being executed VOLUNTARILY withdrew HIS element of notice from the Agenda. In other words, the member, maybe unwittingly, fouled his own pool. Those of us opposed to the barefaced violation of the rules would not have to do anything more. Dear Carlton I would like to ask you to mention manes in your lines. Because your lines bring more confusion than clarification. We should speak clear, because this is not the right way to refer to someone. This is not the communication that I want for the region. A person could say anything, with name and surname, and if there is with respect there is nothing to say. So now, let's speak to the concerns for poor use of ICANN funds raised in this thread. Here is a phrase that works here: 'La historia me absolvera'. I do not share your opinion about the poor use of IANN funds. For me the all events were successful, but is only my personal view. And I remember your word in Skype chat of ALAC saying “after the fiasco” talking about the GA, be careful because we create what we say and you are part of that. I read only negative word in your last email, I read many, but few with initiatives. Is not only important to know how to do something, but more important is know how to teach. To this I invite you all Carlos Aguirre, Carlton, Vanda, Alejandro, the region need your support, your experience. Most of you would probably not know but ever since 2006, there has been an enduring nucleus of opposition for ICANN travel support to the At-Large attending ICANN meetings. This opposition is largely from North America, among persons associated with the placeholder ALAC the new RALO included structure replaced. The most corrosive criticism alleged that At-Large participants who received travel support for ICANN meetings were really tourists first. Their involvement in the At-Large agenda at the meetings was secondary. This criticism was leveled at the At-Large in general but to my mind, sharply directed at members from LAC and Africa. Several recorded observations placed members from LACRALO at the centre of these criticisms. To be brutally frank, one of our members was the THE poster boy for this abuse. I share your opinion regarding tourist and is one of my most important concern, and we have to work together to find the way to overcome this. Again, say names are the right way to express, and you give others the opportunity to replicate. I have, in good nature, endured severe personal criticism because I opposed any attempt to publicly censure those deemed guilty. Some of my colleagues interpreted my opposition as protecting a certain LACRALO member - who shall remain nameless here. More thoughtful others recognized it for what it was; defense of a principle rather than personalities. All that aside, this member has enjoyed my support for other At-large duties. Yes, you guessed right. This member actually solicited my support for other positions. And yes, because of the larger strategic interests, I gave it. By now, some of you might have also guessed my loathing for hypocrisy and all its works. One is supposed to celebrate conversion, as it were, to 'the one true faith'. At least, that is the Christian tradition. Count me as a reliable skeptic. Because to be frank, this latest conversion we witness is really over the top. It is nothing more than a rancid example of enlightened self-interest. That is the word. I do not want you take this personally, because I do not support Jose Ovidio´s words. My commitment is with the region. My finally message is “be careful on what we say, because words are power”, begin to think as a group, that is the key for the growth of the region. Dear Carlton, I really appreciate your lines, because sharing our vision is the way to create the LACRALO that we all want. My admiration for your work Kind Regards José Arce.- 2012/5/2 Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com>
Bro Carlos: You are right on fact as well as strategy. I cannot disagree with you here.
With the greatest respect and affection.
- Carlton
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 3:57 PM, carlos dionisio aguirre < carlosaguirre62@hotmail.com> wrote:
My Dear Bro. We have coincidence in almost 90% of your words. I know what do you want to say, I feel and live like you in many things, And you know that my position is the true that I believe, more than some strategies or diferences in the political positions. But when is needed to be clear, sometimes we must be rude. I think is this in where our positions dont find coincidence. Your words were very strong, but without names, and I felt that we needed names also in your words. We need to start to say names. Because in a contrary case all in the region are involved, and many of them being not guilty for that. It my humble thought.
My permanent enormous affectionate
Carlos Dionisio Aguirre NCA GNSO Council - ICANN former ALAC member by LACRALO Abogado - Especialista en Derecho de los Negocios Sarmiento 71 - 4to. 18 Cordoba - Argentina - *54-351-424-2123 / 423-5423 http://ar.ageiadensi.org
From: carlton.samuels@gmail.com Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 13:12:21 -0500 To: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Election Results Comments
There is a saying in English: 'Where ignorance is bliss, it is folly to
be
wise'.
There is another one: "the law is too important to leave to lawyers".
I do not know their equivalencies in Spanish and a word by word translation would be inadequate. Our LACRALO machine translation will be crude, at best. Nevertheless, I shall not attempt one here.
We have always know that there is a reservoir of ignorance of LACRALO rules. More to point, ignorance of how they apply is really acute. The sad fact is this ignorance is demonstrated by some of our colleagues who, by virtue of their profession, one would least expect.
Without any fear of contradiction I now make this declaration: Any LACRALO election in San Jose would have been illegal for lack of proper notice.
In my part of the world, notice is a pre-requisite for democratic elections. This is because they are processes, not just one event. Take any junta of the kind we witness time and again in the LAC region and I can demonstrate that even they know this.
I know for certain that our democratically-elected friend, Hugo, knows this. [To the chagrin of his opponents! :-)]
Notice typically has three elements; time, duration and content. A violation of any element condemns the notice.
The attempt to call an immediate LACRALO election at San Jose by invoking the full UNGA Rules as authority [and allowed under LACRALO rules!] would have also been in violation.
Not only for the violation of the notice period. But the process by which the voting event would have been taken on the agenda would not have saved the day. That would have had one effect, to add the matter to the agenda. A notice period plus candidates are still necessary for the election.
In addition to all that, the member on whose behalf the attempt to hasten the election is being executed VOLUNTARILY withdrew HIS element of notice from the Agenda.
In other words, the member, maybe unwittingly, fouled his own pool. Those of us opposed to the barefaced violation of the rules would not have to do anything more.
So now, let's speak to the concerns for poor use of ICANN funds raised in this thread. Here is a phrase that works here: 'La historia me absolvera'.
Most of you would probably not know but ever since 2006, there has been an enduring nucleus of opposition for ICANN travel support to the At-Large attending ICANN meetings. This opposition is largely from North America, among persons associated with the placeholder ALAC the new RALO included structure replaced.
The most corrosive criticism alleged that At-Large participants who received travel support for ICANN meetings were really tourists first. Their involvement in the At-Large agenda at the meetings was secondary.
This criticism was leveled at the At-Large in general but to my mind, sharply directed at members from LAC and Africa.
Several recorded observations placed members from LACRALO at the centre of these criticisms. To be brutally frank, one of our members was the THE poster boy for this abuse.
I have, in good nature, endured severe personal criticism because I opposed any attempt to publicly censure those deemed guilty. Some of my colleagues interpreted my opposition as protecting a certain LACRALO member - who shall remain nameless here. More thoughtful others recognized it for what it was; defense of a principle rather than personalities.
All that aside, this member has enjoyed my support for other At-large duties. Yes, you guessed right. This member actually solicited my support for other positions. And yes, because of the larger strategic interests, I gave it.
By now, some of you might have also guessed my loathing for hypocrisy and all its works. One is supposed to celebrate conversion, as it were, to 'the one true faith'. At least, that is the Christian tradition.
Count me as a reliable skeptic. Because to be frank, this latest conversion we witness is really over the top. It is nothing more than a rancid example of enlightened self-interest.
That is the word.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
=============================
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:18 PM, <cveraq@gmail.com> wrote:
[[--Translated text (es -> en)--]]
Subject: Re: =? Windows-1252? Q? Resultados_de_la_Elecci = F3n_de_?
==
Windows-1252? Q? = 09L = 09a_Secretar = EDa_de_LACRALO_t = E9rmino_de_un_? == Windows-1252? Q? A = F1o_ = 09de_04_de_ = 09mayo_2012 ? = From: cveraq@gmail.com
Incredible .. And those are the people demanding commitment and demand .. # Prohibidoolvidar
While we are not transparent, conscious of our responsibilities and understand that not everything revolves around our personal interests, the region will continue dependent.
Today we strongly believe in a good team without conditions.
Carlos Vera ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alberto Soto" <asoto@ibero-americano.org> Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 00:11:41 To: <salgueiro.jo@gmail.com> ; <cveraq@gmail.com> ; 'LACRALO Spanish' < lac-discuss-es@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Cc: <lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: RE: [lac-discuss-en] Results of the choice of l trmino LACRALO to secrete a year of 04 May 2012
I agree with the view of the precious time lost in Costa Rica, in addition ICANN payment of money, just for personal interests that harm us all. A general assembly can not be lost completely only two people present. ICANN is a lot of money and OUR, and long staff of each of us invested. Best Regards
Alberto Soto
----- Original Message ----- From: lac-discuss-es-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [Mailto: lac-discuss-es-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jose Ovidio Salgueiro A. Posted on: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:09 pm To: cveraq@gmail.com; LACRALO Espaol CC: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Results of the election of the secrete of LACRALO trmino of one year from May 4, 2012
Congratulations to Sylvia by Josy strong result.
This leads me to think that the ridiculous we did in the Assembly in San Josfue unnecessary since this result was the same as hubiramos all obtained.
The Caribbean was not able or San Josni now to put a candidate with the capacity for a votacin important.
I hope that now if you can work as expected in our organization and without the narrow interests that previously demonstrated
JosSalgueiro
Sent from my BlackBerry Movistar
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
-- Ab. Arce, Jose Francisco + 54 9 351 6788920
Dear Jose A.: I see a sincere attempt to be even handed here but regrettably, I will except myself. It would be nice if your admonition not to criticize is shared by all. But the evidence is against you. And maybe you would need to intervene more often with this lesson. You definitely misunderstand my words regarding the legal profession. Nothing I said 'disparaged' the profession. Rather, it raised concerns about the capability of *one member* in the context of the keen knowledge of procedures usually attributed to members of the legal profession. Mine was a direct response to postings in the email thread. * *In *my opinion*, the reference to the election non-event of San Jose showed a demonstrable failure of the writer to understand basic procedural rules. And from the evidence, he is not alone in this regard. Yes, I could have repeated the name of the contributor but it is there already. Maybe I could have said something like I would not hire - or recommend hiring - him to fix a jaywalking ticket! But that would be impolite. Its a choice. Finally, you presided at the elections. The rules empower you to recognize all motions as well as the proposer of the motions. So, you would know - or ought to know! - the identity of the member who proposed calling for elections in SJO. I daresay you should not be among the confused. I have chosen to use 'parliamentary' language here. Because all GA attendees would - or should - by now know the names of persons who placed election-related motions at SJO. However if in your judgment it bears need for clarity, it is quite ok to extend my remarks and share the member's name. Kind regards, - Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 5:35 PM, José Francisco Arce < josefranciscoarce@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Carlton: with all due respect, I want to share my vision with you.
There is a saying in English: 'Where ignorance is bliss, it is folly to be wise'.
There is another one: "the law is too important to leave to lawyers".
I do not know their equivalencies in Spanish and a word by word translation would be inadequate. Our LACRALO machine translation will be crude, at best. Nevertheless, I shall not attempt one here.
We have always known that there is a reservoir of ignorance of LACRALO
rules. More to point, ignorance of how they apply is really acute. The sad fact is this ignorance is demonstrated by some of our colleagues who, by virtue of their profession, one would least expect.
I do not like “saying”, because is better speak or write directly, so in this way people can understand better what you are trying to say, even more if many of them do not speak English.
I see your words as a disparagement of others or for some profession (there is a common mistake in people and
that is to put forward a profession by the person), and that is not the vision that has to have a leader of the region, because we are all pairs, some people has more experience than others, some work more than others, some of them find it more difficult than others, and the Key is not to criticize, the key is to build cooperative and collaborative dialogues.
We have to ask ourselves “What we did to be at this point?” What we did to fix it? What we plan to overcome the difficulties?
Without any fear of contradiction I now make this declaration: Any LACRALO election in San Jose would have been illegal for lack of proper notice.
In my part of the world, notice is a pre-requisite for democratic elections. This is because they are processes, not just one event. Take any junta of the kind we witness time and again in the LAC region and I can demonstrate that even they know this.
Your part of the world is my part of the world too (we have only one world). And without fear I say that I share with you the meaning of democratic.
I know for certain that our democratically-elected friend, Hugo, knows this. [To the chagrin of his opponents! :-)]
Notice typically has three elements; time, duration and content. A violation of any element condemns the notice.
The attempt to call an immediate LACRALO election at San Jose by invoking the full UNGA Rules as authority [and allowed under LACRALO rules!] would have also been in violation.
Not only for the violation of the notice period. But the process by which the voting event would have been taken on the agenda would not have saved the day. That would have had one effect, to add the matter to the agenda. A notice period plus candidates are still necessary for the election.
In addition to all that, the member on whose behalf the attempt to hasten the election is being executed VOLUNTARILY withdrew HIS element of notice from the Agenda.
In other words, the member, maybe unwittingly, fouled his own pool. Those of us opposed to the barefaced violation of the rules would not have to do anything more.
Dear Carlton I would like to ask you to mention manes in your lines. Because your lines bring more confusion than clarification. We should speak clear, because this is not the right way to refer to someone. This is not the communication that I want for the region. A person could say anything, with name and surname, and if there is with respect there is nothing to say.
So now, let's speak to the concerns for poor use of ICANN funds raised in this thread. Here is a phrase that works here: 'La historia me absolvera'.
I do not share your opinion about the poor use of IANN funds. For me the all events were successful, but is only my personal view. And I remember your word in Skype chat of ALAC saying “after the fiasco” talking about the GA, be careful because we create what we say and you are part of that. I read only negative word in your last email, I read many, but few with initiatives.
Is not only important to know how to do something, but more important is know how to teach. To this I invite you all Carlos Aguirre, Carlton, Vanda, Alejandro, the region need your support, your experience.
Most of you would probably not know but ever since 2006, there has been an enduring nucleus of opposition for ICANN travel support to the At-Large attending ICANN meetings. This opposition is largely from North America, among persons associated with the placeholder ALAC the new RALO included structure replaced.
The most corrosive criticism alleged that At-Large participants who received travel support for ICANN meetings were really tourists first. Their involvement in the At-Large agenda at the meetings was secondary.
This criticism was leveled at the At-Large in general but to my mind, sharply directed at members from LAC and Africa.
Several recorded observations placed members from LACRALO at the centre of these criticisms. To be brutally frank, one of our members was the THE poster boy for this abuse.
I share your opinion regarding tourist and is one of my most important concern, and we have to work together to find the way to overcome this.
Again, say names are the right way to express, and you give others the opportunity to replicate.
I have, in good nature, endured severe personal criticism because I opposed any attempt to publicly censure those deemed guilty. Some of my colleagues interpreted my opposition as protecting a certain LACRALO member - who shall remain nameless here. More thoughtful others recognized it for what it was; defense of a principle rather than personalities.
All that aside, this member has enjoyed my support for other At-large duties. Yes, you guessed right. This member actually solicited my support for other positions. And yes, because of the larger strategic interests, I gave it.
By now, some of you might have also guessed my loathing for hypocrisy and all its works. One is supposed to celebrate conversion, as it were, to 'the one true faith'. At least, that is the Christian tradition.
Count me as a reliable skeptic. Because to be frank, this latest conversion we witness is really over the top. It is nothing more than a rancid example of enlightened self-interest.
That is the word.
I do not want you take this personally, because I do not support Jose Ovidio´s words. My commitment is with the region.
My finally message is “be careful on what we say, because words are power”, begin to think as a group, that is the key for the growth of the region.
Dear Carlton, I really appreciate your lines, because sharing our vision is the way to create the LACRALO that we all want.
My admiration for your work
Kind Regards
José Arce.-
2012/5/2 Carlton Samuels <carlton.samuels@gmail.com>
Bro Carlos: You are right on fact as well as strategy. I cannot disagree with you here.
With the greatest respect and affection.
- Carlton
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 3:57 PM, carlos dionisio aguirre < carlosaguirre62@hotmail.com> wrote:
My Dear Bro. We have coincidence in almost 90% of your words. I know what do you want to say, I feel and live like you in many things, And you know that my position is the true that I believe, more than some strategies or diferences in the political positions. But when is needed to be clear, sometimes we must be rude. I think is this in where our positions dont find coincidence. Your words were very strong, but without names, and I felt that we needed names also in your words. We need to start to say names. Because in a contrary case all in the region are involved, and many of them being not guilty for that. It my humble thought.
My permanent enormous affectionate
Carlos Dionisio Aguirre NCA GNSO Council - ICANN former ALAC member by LACRALO Abogado - Especialista en Derecho de los Negocios Sarmiento 71 - 4to. 18 Cordoba - Argentina - *54-351-424-2123 / 423-5423 http://ar.ageiadensi.org
From: carlton.samuels@gmail.com Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 13:12:21 -0500 To: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Election Results Comments
There is a saying in English: 'Where ignorance is bliss, it is folly
to be
wise'.
There is another one: "the law is too important to leave to lawyers".
I do not know their equivalencies in Spanish and a word by word translation would be inadequate. Our LACRALO machine translation will be crude, at best. Nevertheless, I shall not attempt one here.
We have always know that there is a reservoir of ignorance of LACRALO rules. More to point, ignorance of how they apply is really acute. The sad fact is this ignorance is demonstrated by some of our colleagues who, by virtue of their profession, one would least expect.
Without any fear of contradiction I now make this declaration: Any LACRALO election in San Jose would have been illegal for lack of proper notice.
In my part of the world, notice is a pre-requisite for democratic elections. This is because they are processes, not just one event. Take any junta of the kind we witness time and again in the LAC region and I can demonstrate that even they know this.
I know for certain that our democratically-elected friend, Hugo, knows this. [To the chagrin of his opponents! :-)]
Notice typically has three elements; time, duration and content. A violation of any element condemns the notice.
The attempt to call an immediate LACRALO election at San Jose by invoking the full UNGA Rules as authority [and allowed under LACRALO rules!] would have also been in violation.
Not only for the violation of the notice period. But the process by which the voting event would have been taken on the agenda would not have saved the day. That would have had one effect, to add the matter to the agenda. A notice period plus candidates are still necessary for the election.
In addition to all that, the member on whose behalf the attempt to hasten the election is being executed VOLUNTARILY withdrew HIS element of notice from the Agenda.
In other words, the member, maybe unwittingly, fouled his own pool. Those of us opposed to the barefaced violation of the rules would not have to do anything more.
So now, let's speak to the concerns for poor use of ICANN funds raised in this thread. Here is a phrase that works here: 'La historia me absolvera'.
Most of you would probably not know but ever since 2006, there has been an enduring nucleus of opposition for ICANN travel support to the At-Large attending ICANN meetings. This opposition is largely from North America, among persons associated with the placeholder ALAC the new RALO included structure replaced.
The most corrosive criticism alleged that At-Large participants who received travel support for ICANN meetings were really tourists first. Their involvement in the At-Large agenda at the meetings was secondary.
This criticism was leveled at the At-Large in general but to my mind, sharply directed at members from LAC and Africa.
Several recorded observations placed members from LACRALO at the centre of these criticisms. To be brutally frank, one of our members was the THE poster boy for this abuse.
I have, in good nature, endured severe personal criticism because I opposed any attempt to publicly censure those deemed guilty. Some of my colleagues interpreted my opposition as protecting a certain LACRALO member - who shall remain nameless here. More thoughtful others recognized it for what it was; defense of a principle rather than personalities.
All that aside, this member has enjoyed my support for other At-large duties. Yes, you guessed right. This member actually solicited my support for other positions. And yes, because of the larger strategic interests, I gave it.
By now, some of you might have also guessed my loathing for hypocrisy and all its works. One is supposed to celebrate conversion, as it were, to 'the one true faith'. At least, that is the Christian tradition.
Count me as a reliable skeptic. Because to be frank, this latest conversion we witness is really over the top. It is nothing more than a rancid example of enlightened self-interest.
That is the word.
- Carlton Samuels
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround*
=============================
On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 10:18 PM, <cveraq@gmail.com> wrote:
[[--Translated text (es -> en)--]]
Subject: Re: =? Windows-1252? Q? Resultados_de_la_Elecci = F3n_de_?
==
Windows-1252? Q? = 09L = 09a_Secretar = EDa_de_LACRALO_t = E9rmino_de_un_? == Windows-1252? Q? A = F1o_ = 09de_04_de_ = 09mayo_2012 ? = From: cveraq@gmail.com
Incredible .. And those are the people demanding commitment and demand .. # Prohibidoolvidar
While we are not transparent, conscious of our responsibilities and understand that not everything revolves around our personal interests, the region will continue dependent.
Today we strongly believe in a good team without conditions.
Carlos Vera ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alberto Soto" <asoto@ibero-americano.org> Date: Wed, 2 May 2012 00:11:41 To: <salgueiro.jo@gmail.com> ; <cveraq@gmail.com> ; 'LACRALO Spanish' < lac-discuss-es@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Cc: <lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: RE: [lac-discuss-en] Results of the choice of l trmino LACRALO to secrete a year of 04 May 2012
I agree with the view of the precious time lost in Costa Rica, in addition ICANN payment of money, just for personal interests that harm us all. A general assembly can not be lost completely only two people present. ICANN is a lot of money and OUR, and long staff of each of us invested. Best Regards
Alberto Soto
----- Original Message ----- From: lac-discuss-es-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [Mailto: lac-discuss-es-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jose Ovidio Salgueiro A. Posted on: Tuesday, May 1, 2012 11:09 pm To: cveraq@gmail.com; LACRALO Espaol CC: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] Results of the election of the secrete of LACRALO trmino of one year from May 4, 2012
Congratulations to Sylvia by Josy strong result.
This leads me to think that the ridiculous we did in the Assembly in San Josfue unnecessary since this result was the same as hubiramos all obtained.
The Caribbean was not able or San Josni now to put a candidate with the capacity for a votacin important.
I hope that now if you can work as expected in our organization and without the narrow interests that previously demonstrated
JosSalgueiro
Sent from my BlackBerry Movistar
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
_______________________________________________ lac-discuss-en mailing list lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/lac-discuss-en
-- Ab. Arce, Jose Francisco + 54 9 351 6788920
participants (3)
-
carlos dionisio aguirre -
Carlton Samuels -
José Francisco Arce