Re: [Latingp] Meeting material - Decision tree for imposed variant
Thank you for putting this together. IMO, this case highlights the limitation of the tool. Trying to accommodate competing rules across various scripts can be a complex undertaking. I believe there is a misconception what the RZ-LGR can do or what even the DNS can do in terms of variant names at the top-level, but that’s for another time to chat about ☺ I read certain sections of the Greek GP’s proposal and it is clear to me that their criteria is not the same as that of Latin GP. So applying their rationale to ours, does not make sense. If transitivity is enforced, then so be it, but Latin GP should not agree with it. Let the IP figure out the solution for the combined LGR; it’s their job. Or am I missing something? Dennis From: Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Pitinan Kooarmornpatana via Latingp <latingp@icann.org> Reply-To: Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Date: Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 12:54 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Meeting material - Decision tree for imposed variant Caution: This email originated from outside the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Dear Latin GP members, Today Mats Bill Michael have met for an informal discussion on Bill’s email and the presentation sent earlier. Please find attached the updated material (adding some example on the second page). This will be discussed again in the next meeting (4 March 2021) Regards, Pitinan From: Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Pitinan Kooarmornpatana via Latingp <latingp@icann.org> Reply-To: Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Date: Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 10:43 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [Latingp] Meeting material - Decision tree for imposed variant Dear All, We have consulted with the chair to developed a summary slide to lay out possible options of Latin GP regarding the imposed variant from other script LGR. Please find attached the slide. This is planned to be used during the meeting today. Regards, Pitinan
Hi Dennis, On 26.02.2021 17:53, Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp wrote:
Thank you for putting this together. IMO, this case highlights the limitation of the tool. Trying to accommodate competing rules across various scripts can be a complex undertaking. I believe there is a misconception what the RZ-LGR can do or what even the DNS can do in terms of variant names at the top-level, but that’s for another time to chat about ☺
I read certain sections of the Greek GP’s proposal and it is clear to me that their criteria is not the same as that of Latin GP. So applying their rationale to ours, does not make sense.
I agree with you. They applied very different criteria. Nevertheless, I think those criteria make sense from their point of view. It's a script with a single language. If certain variations of the base character are considered to be variants in their language then that is most likely sound (pun intended). While at the same time our approach is sensible for a script with hundreds of languages. And unfortunately, those two approaches (each valid in their own domain) seem to be incompatible.
If transitivity is enforced, then so be it, but Latin GP should not agree with it. Let the IP figure out the solution for the combined LGR; it’s their job. Or am I missing something?
Yes, again I agree. The IP, short for *integration* panel, should be responsible for somehow integrating those contradicting LGRs. Not that I envy them, but that's beyond our job description. Cheers, Michael -- ____________________________________________________________________ | | | knipp | Knipp Medien und Kommunikation GmbH ------- Technologiepark Martin-Schmeisser-Weg 9 44227 Dortmund Germany Dipl.-Informatiker Fon: +49 231 9703-0 Fax: +49 231 9703-200 Dr. Michael Bauland SIP: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Software Development E-mail: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Register Court: Amtsgericht Dortmund, HRB 13728 Chief Executive Officers: Dietmar Knipp, Elmar Knipp
Dear colleagues, I generally tend to agree with Dennis here. Greek GP has used different criteria in my eyes than we have, and I think it is because - as I had mentioned on the call - in their case the script using community is essentially identical with the language using community. Therefore, they have encoded variants on the basis of speakers’ understanding and not based on visual factors. In our case, this would be a non-visual variant or - as IP called it - a semantic variant and if it was restricted to only one language we would refrain from encoding that because of the impact it would have upon other languages. Therefore, I also believe that the ball is in the arena of Integration Panel, as they should inform Greek GP that such variants are not eligible for the route zone. However, maybe we can provide them with arguments from the point of view of Latin GP why these should not be eligible. For example, if this is truly because of a certain national legal regulations within Greece, maybe Greek GP should be informed that since this is an international zone local law is not applicable here and that they are free to enforce such rules at the second level. However, I also agree with Dennis that if Integration Panel chooses to simply accept these variants it then becomes an integration issue, which they should handle. Best, Meikal Am 26. Feb. 2021, 17:54 +0100 schrieb Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp :
Thank you for putting this together. IMO, this case highlights the limitation of the tool. Trying to accommodate competing rules across various scripts can be a complex undertaking. I believe there is a misconception what the RZ-LGR can do or what even the DNS can do in terms of variant names at the top-level, but that’s for another time to chat about ☺
I read certain sections of the Greek GP’s proposal and it is clear to me that their criteria is not the same as that of Latin GP. So applying their rationale to ours, does not make sense. If transitivity is enforced, then so be it, but Latin GP should not agree with it. Let the IP figure out the solution for the combined LGR; it’s their job. Or am I missing something?
Dennis
From: Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Pitinan Kooarmornpatana via Latingp <latingp@icann.org> Reply-To: Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Date: Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 12:54 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Meeting material - Decision tree for imposed variant
Caution: This email originated from outside the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. Dear Latin GP members,
Today Mats Bill Michael have met for an informal discussion on Bill’s email and the presentation sent earlier.
Please find attached the updated material (adding some example on the second page). This will be discussed again in the next meeting (4 March 2021)
Regards, Pitinan
From: Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Pitinan Kooarmornpatana via Latingp <latingp@icann.org> Reply-To: Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Date: Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 10:43 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [Latingp] Meeting material - Decision tree for imposed variant
Dear All,
We have consulted with the chair to developed a summary slide to lay out possible options of Latin GP regarding the imposed variant from other script LGR. Please find attached the slide. This is planned to be used during the meeting today.
Regards, Pitinan _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp
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While we did not have a meeting last Thursday, Michael, Mats, and I (together with Pitinan) did get together and chat for a while. From that, and the emails here, I think we are all pretty much on the same page: - If there are some issues due to the Greek GP's decisions on variants, addressing them is outside our remit. We think it is the IP's job, and we should leave it to them. - If there are Latin in-script variants due to transitivity which we consider exceptionally problematic, we will bring them up. But the only ones that are apparent so far are the cases where there are two ASCII characters which become variants due to transitivity. However, Pitinan tells us that the IP is already working with the Greek GP on those cases, so we don't need to raise that issue. I admit to a personal preference, for the sake of consistency, to looking at the variants due to transitivity which amount to finding two diacritics as variants for some letters. It seems like, seeing that, we should expand it to all cases of code points in the Latin script involving those diacritics. But I don't know that there is adequate support from the rest of the team for going there. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) On Friday, February 26, 2021, 08:54:20 AM PST, Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp <latingp@icann.org> wrote: #yiv8734615739 #yiv8734615739 -- _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {} _filtered {}#yiv8734615739 #yiv8734615739 p.yiv8734615739MsoNormal, #yiv8734615739 li.yiv8734615739MsoNormal, #yiv8734615739 div.yiv8734615739MsoNormal {margin:0in;font-size:11.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;}#yiv8734615739 span.yiv8734615739EmailStyle21 {font-family:sans-serif;color:windowtext;}#yiv8734615739 .yiv8734615739MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _filtered {}#yiv8734615739 div.yiv8734615739WordSection1 {}#yiv8734615739 Thank you for putting this together. IMO, this case highlights the limitation of the tool. Trying to accommodate competing rules across various scripts can be a complex undertaking. I believe there is a misconception what the RZ-LGR can do or what even the DNS can do in terms of variant names at the top-level, but that’s for another time to chat about☺ I read certain sections of the Greek GP’s proposal and it is clear to me that their criteria is not the same as that of Latin GP. So applying their rationale to ours, does not make sense. If transitivity is enforced, then so be it, but Latin GP should not agree with it. Let the IP figure out the solution for the combined LGR; it’s their job. Or am I missing something? Dennis From:Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Pitinan Kooarmornpatana via Latingp <latingp@icann.org> Reply-To: Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Date: Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 12:54 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Latingp] Meeting material - Decision tree for imposed variant | Caution: This email originated from outside the organization. Do not click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe. | Dear Latin GP members, Today Mats Bill Michael have met for an informal discussion on Bill’s email and the presentation sent earlier. Please find attached the updated material (adding some example on the second page). This will be discussed again in the next meeting (4 March 2021) Regards, Pitinan From:Latingp <latingp-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Pitinan Kooarmornpatana via Latingp <latingp@icann.org> Reply-To: Pitinan Kooarmornpatana <pitinan.koo@icann.org> Date: Thursday, February 25, 2021 at 10:43 PM To: "latingp@icann.org" <latingp@icann.org> Subject: [Latingp] Meeting material - Decision tree for imposed variant Dear All, We have consulted with the chair to developed a summary slide to lay out possible options of Latin GP regarding the imposed variant from other script LGR. Please find attached the slide. This is planned to be used during the meeting today. Regards, Pitinan _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
participants (4)
-
Bill Jouris -
Meikal Mumin -
Michael Bauland -
Tan Tanaka, Dennis