Dear colleagues, As requested, I have updated the Proposal (Section 6.7.1) with our decisions for Variants Due To Underlining. I would like to note one small inconsistency in our results. Basic letters are considered variants of the same letter with a cedilla for letters K, L, N, S, and T. But not for letters C, M, and O. It seems to me that we really ought to be consistent in this. (As we are for Dot Below, Macron Below, Circumflex Below, Ogonek, etc.) Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct)
Hi Bill, On 04.09.2019 23:42, Bill Jouris wrote:
Dear colleagues,
As requested, I have updated the Proposal (Section 6.7.1) with our decisions for Variants Due To Underlining.
thanks for your work.
I would like to note one small inconsistency in our results. Basic letters are considered variants of the same letter with a cedilla for letters K, L, N, S, and T. But *not* for letters C, M, and O. It seems to me that we really ought to be consistent in this. (As we are for Dot Below, Macron Below, Circumflex Below, Ogonek, etc.)
Good catch. I agree that we should try to be consistent. And in case there is a good reason that requires us to be "inconsistent" we at least have to argue and comment why we handle those seemingly equivalent cases differently. As mentioned last week, I will be in a car driving to a customer during our call and I don't like driving and using the phone (even with a hands-free kit) at the same time. So I won't be able to join. Therefore my vote (in case you need it in this call) for this case: Looking at our original documents my opinion is to not considering base characters and characters with cedilla below as variants. Talk to you next week, Michael -- ____________________________________________________________________ | | | knipp | Knipp Medien und Kommunikation GmbH ------- Technologiepark Martin-Schmeisser-Weg 9 44227 Dortmund Germany Dipl.-Informatiker Fon: +49 231 9703-0 Fax: +49 231 9703-200 Dr. Michael Bauland SIP: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Software Development E-mail: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Register Court: Amtsgericht Dortmund, HRB 13728 Chief Executive Officers: Dietmar Knipp, Elmar Knipp
Hi Michael, If we just had one of two cases where we had decided Variant, and a half dozen where we had decided Not a Variant, I might agree. But the substantial bulk of our decisions were for Variant. So that seems like the way to go. P.S. Good choice on not talking while driving. People who are on the phone while driving, even with a hands-free phone, scare me. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) On Thursday, September 5, 2019, 05:50:41 AM PDT, Michael Bauland <Michael.Bauland@knipp.de> wrote: Hi Bill, On 04.09.2019 23:42, Bill Jouris wrote:
Dear colleagues,
As requested, I have updated the Proposal (Section 6.7.1) with our decisions for Variants Due To Underlining.
thanks for your work.
I would like to note one small inconsistency in our results. Basic letters are considered variants of the same letter with a cedilla for letters K, L, N, S, and T. But *not* for letters C, M, and O. It seems to me that we really ought to be consistent in this. (As we are for Dot Below, Macron Below, Circumflex Below, Ogonek, etc.)
Good catch. I agree that we should try to be consistent. And in case there is a good reason that requires us to be "inconsistent" we at least have to argue and comment why we handle those seemingly equivalent cases differently. As mentioned last week, I will be in a car driving to a customer during our call and I don't like driving and using the phone (even with a hands-free kit) at the same time. So I won't be able to join. Therefore my vote (in case you need it in this call) for this case: Looking at our original documents my opinion is to not considering base characters and characters with cedilla below as variants. Talk to you next week, Michael -- ____________________________________________________________________ | | | knipp | Knipp Medien und Kommunikation GmbH ------- Technologiepark Martin-Schmeisser-Weg 9 44227 Dortmund Germany Dipl.-Informatiker Fon: +49 231 9703-0 Fax: +49 231 9703-200 Dr. Michael Bauland SIP: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Software Development E-mail: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Register Court: Amtsgericht Dortmund, HRB 13728 Chief Executive Officers: Dietmar Knipp, Elmar Knipp _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Well, about consistency. That was the approach that was suggested at the beginning (i.e. decide by diacritic group instead of individual ratings). The idea did not have support. Instead, it was argued that diacritics are not rendered consistently across letters and therefore they needed to be tested individually. That was what the majority supported and the reason we did the spreadsheet. The inconsistency in ratings is due in part of the differences in how fonts are rendered in different systems (by system I mean the combination of OS, display, resolution, application, font type, etc.). On top of this, people's perception also play a roll, which renders any conclusion as subjective. -Dennis On 9/5/19, 8:50 AM, "Latingp on behalf of Michael Bauland" <latingp-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Michael.Bauland@knipp.de> wrote: Hi Bill, On 04.09.2019 23:42, Bill Jouris wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > As requested, I have updated the Proposal (Section 6.7.1) with our > decisions for Variants Due To Underlining. thanks for your work. > I would like to note one small inconsistency in our results. Basic > letters are considered variants of the same letter with a cedilla for > letters K, L, N, S, and T. But *not* for letters C, M, and O. It seems > to me that we really ought to be consistent in this. (As we are for Dot > Below, Macron Below, Circumflex Below, Ogonek, etc.) Good catch. I agree that we should try to be consistent. And in case there is a good reason that requires us to be "inconsistent" we at least have to argue and comment why we handle those seemingly equivalent cases differently. As mentioned last week, I will be in a car driving to a customer during our call and I don't like driving and using the phone (even with a hands-free kit) at the same time. So I won't be able to join. Therefore my vote (in case you need it in this call) for this case: Looking at our original documents my opinion is to not considering base characters and characters with cedilla below as variants. Talk to you next week, Michael -- ____________________________________________________________________ | | | knipp | Knipp Medien und Kommunikation GmbH ------- Technologiepark Martin-Schmeisser-Weg 9 44227 Dortmund Germany Dipl.-Informatiker Fon: +49 231 9703-0 Fax: +49 231 9703-200 Dr. Michael Bauland SIP: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Software Development E-mail: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Register Court: Amtsgericht Dortmund, HRB 13728 Chief Executive Officers: Dietmar Knipp, Elmar Knipp _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
My sense was that we wanted to look at the individual cases first. And use our findings to inform what decision to make on the general case of the particular diacritic. Rather than deciding to not go for consistency. Bill Jouris Inside Products bill.jouris@insidethestack.com 831-659-8360 925-855-9512 (direct) On Thursday, September 5, 2019, 08:59:35 AM PDT, Tan Tanaka, Dennis via Latingp <latingp@icann.org> wrote: Well, about consistency. That was the approach that was suggested at the beginning (i.e. decide by diacritic group instead of individual ratings). The idea did not have support. Instead, it was argued that diacritics are not rendered consistently across letters and therefore they needed to be tested individually. That was what the majority supported and the reason we did the spreadsheet. The inconsistency in ratings is due in part of the differences in how fonts are rendered in different systems (by system I mean the combination of OS, display, resolution, application, font type, etc.). On top of this, people's perception also play a roll, which renders any conclusion as subjective. -Dennis On 9/5/19, 8:50 AM, "Latingp on behalf of Michael Bauland" <latingp-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Michael.Bauland@knipp.de> wrote: Hi Bill, On 04.09.2019 23:42, Bill Jouris wrote: > Dear colleagues, > > As requested, I have updated the Proposal (Section 6.7.1) with our > decisions for Variants Due To Underlining. thanks for your work. > I would like to note one small inconsistency in our results. Basic > letters are considered variants of the same letter with a cedilla for > letters K, L, N, S, and T. But *not* for letters C, M, and O. It seems > to me that we really ought to be consistent in this. (As we are for Dot > Below, Macron Below, Circumflex Below, Ogonek, etc.) Good catch. I agree that we should try to be consistent. And in case there is a good reason that requires us to be "inconsistent" we at least have to argue and comment why we handle those seemingly equivalent cases differently. As mentioned last week, I will be in a car driving to a customer during our call and I don't like driving and using the phone (even with a hands-free kit) at the same time. So I won't be able to join. Therefore my vote (in case you need it in this call) for this case: Looking at our original documents my opinion is to not considering base characters and characters with cedilla below as variants. Talk to you next week, Michael -- ____________________________________________________________________ | | | knipp | Knipp Medien und Kommunikation GmbH ------- Technologiepark Martin-Schmeisser-Weg 9 44227 Dortmund Germany Dipl.-Informatiker Fon: +49 231 9703-0 Fax: +49 231 9703-200 Dr. Michael Bauland SIP: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Software Development E-mail: Michael.Bauland@knipp.de Register Court: Amtsgericht Dortmund, HRB 13728 Chief Executive Officers: Dietmar Knipp, Elmar Knipp _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on. _______________________________________________ Latingp mailing list Latingp@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/latingp _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
participants (3)
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Bill Jouris -
Michael Bauland -
Tan Tanaka, Dennis