Re: [NA-Discuss] Fwd: [WHOIS-WG] Fwd: Roundup of WHOIS Issues
Volker, Thank you for removing mybuymeds[DOT]com, healthinsurancecapsule[DOT]net, and PAYPILL[DOT]NET. Can you tell me what German law they violated that smartsshealth[dot]com did not? The same question applies to arrowstat[DOT]com, clevermeds[DOT]net, easymed2u[DOT]com, easymedforyou[DOT]com, fivemeds[DOT]net, gladysandron[DOT]com, mydocpro[DOT]com, myfastmed[DOT]net, mysmartmed[DOT]net, thecupoverflows[DOT]com, and thefastmed[DOT]com. All of which were reported as abuse to you previously, all of which are GlavMed domains. Now, I never said you sponsored bestpillsroom[dot]com. What I said was healthinsurancecapsule[DOT]net looked suspended but redirected there. This is also the case with the following KEY-SYSTEMS domains: goodhealthtabletspharmacy[DOT]net, healthtabletspharmacyschools[DOT]net, pillidentificationmedsguide[DOT]net, and tablethealthmedsguide[DOT]net And also tabletnetputercapsules[dot]net which redirects to drugplaceclean[dot]com. I assume you can remove these for same reason you removed healthinsurancecapsule[DOT]net. <<While GlavMed and illegal pharmacies were not part of the official report, you are running into open doors here.>> Yes, they are part of the report, a major part of the report. We had to leave off the list of ones KEY-SYSTEMS supports because of time and length. They will be listed in any revision as per your request. <<It is however impossible for us to check the use of each domain name registered through our service.>> I would be happy to do it for you, for free. <<More sadly, the registrations arrive from various sources, and do not announce themselves to be what they are upon registration.>> I can see from your WHOIS Port 43 results that they are coming from VAHGAW[DOT]RU, NAMEOFFC[DOT]RU, JODETI[DOT]RU, and XOOXOX[DOT]RU. Are these nameservers run by your resellers? I think that would be a good place to start looking. Do you remove a reseller when their domains continue to turn up like this? Of course, this is not the case for all of them. clevermeds[DOT]net, easymed2u[DOT]com, easymedforyou[DOT]com, and mysmartmed[DOT]net are served from your very own DOMAINDISCOUNT24.NET. <<But I do pledge I will deactivate any domain name used for illegal (in Germany) purposes as soon as possible whenever I receive notice.>> Well, you're changing the wording of the pledge. However, tell me in detail what constitutes a German legal violation that would be suitable for future notices (abuse is bcc'ed as requested) <<And you still did not answer the question of what was found to be confusing.>> Don't have to, you said: "the long list of prices may seem confusing to some" -Garth ------------------------------------- What is the Doomsday Book? http://knujon.com/doomsday Garth Bruen gbruen@knujon.com http://www.knujon.com http://www.linkedin.com/pub/4/149/724 Linkedin Group: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1870205 Blog: http://www.circleid.com/members/3296/ Twitter: @Knujon
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Fwd: [WHOIS-WG] Fwd: Roundup of WHOIS Issues From: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Date: Fri, July 23, 2010 12:01 pm To: na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org
Hi Garth,
Volker, this is your quote: "still thinking if suing them is the best way or not" (http://forum.icann.org/lists/gnso-vi-feb10/msg02490.html). You don't like what we have to say, so you want to sue us to stop it.
Where did I twist? This is an act of intimidation, that follows a pattern of Registrars trying to intimidate us. We would not sue you to shut you up or stop you from doing your reports, but we may still sue for libellous interference, i.e. spreading untrue and harmful accusations. Even the accusation of potential breach can seriously impact our ability to do business and is damaging to our reputation. After you now know where our whois service is located, a fact which you could have easily found out on your own (and probably did), it is time to correct the report if you want to continue to claim is is accurate in its entirety.
Also reads: "The following 55 Registrars did not respond to our inquiry about their Port 43 WHOIS"
Do you dispute this fact? No, but I do not see where there is an obligation to do so. I do wish to point out that we usually do resond even to the most outlandish requests and normally your mail should have received an answer. The fact remains however, that you could have found out the information, if you tried. Also reads: "Key-Systems GmbH (key-systems.net) – Reporter commented that fee policies were not clear"
We asked a consumer to review your site and this was their response. A bit more detail would be helpful. What about our price list (http://dd24.net/?js=1&page=domains_pricing) is unclear? I admit, due to the large amounts of TLDs on offer, it is a bit long and unwieldy, which may confuse someone who usually only deals with gTLD specialized registrars, but it contains all prices on one easy to use page. I do not know how much clearer we could display our prices. <<a) Failure to find a whois service at whois.key-systems.net>>
Wrong. We never failed to find it, you failed to answer a question about it. All of the comments that follow that are speculation on your part. We asked what the address was, you never responded. We sent you the actual email and you won't concede you failed to answer. That's all sloppiness on your side, not mine. We already knew where your port 43 is and we told you this, that's not the issue. The issue is that you wouldn't answer a question about it. Now you are a being dishonest about a previous conversation. You claim possible breach of the RAA, so the failure to respond to your mail cannot be the issue. The issue in that case can only be the failure to provide the service we are bound to provide. And that simply is not the case. Normally, you should and would have received an answer to your mail. But our failure to respond is not an indication of potential breach. It's not openly available if it is (1) not posted publicly on your website and (2) you fail to answer a question about it. You are expecting someone to hunt and peck for your port 43 location, which they Hunt and peck? A single query of key-systems.net would suffice. No need to seek out any other domain name. Maybe our view of openly available is different, but I see that as very open and very available. Please note that to be able use port 43 whois, you know what you are doing with it and therefore will have a basic idea on how to use it. would only find if they had one of your illicit pharmacy sites to query like smartsshealth[dot]com or healthinsurancecapsule[DOT]net which "looks" suspended by Key-Systems but actually redirects to bestpillsroom[dot]com, or mybuymeds[DOT]com, or paypill[DOT]net, or any of the other sites backed by organzied crime you sponsor that we told you about previously. Regarding the domain names listed: None of them are "our sites". Three were registered through three different resellers, one directly through our customer portal using stolen data. One (of five) was never registered through our service. Three that showed illegal content are now deactivated. But please use our abuse address in the future. I'll make a deal with you Volker. I'll issue a bleeding apology on this thread if you take a pledge not to sponsor any more GlavMed pharmacy domains. While GlavMed and illegal pharmacies were not part of the official report, you are running into open doors here. We have no interest in sponsoring illegally used domain names and will shut them down whenever we find them. It is however impossible for us to check the use of each domain name registered through our service. More sadly, the registrations arrive from various sources, and do not announce themselves to be what they are upon registration. But I do pledge I will deactivate any domain name used for illegal (in Germany) purposes as soon as possible whenever I receive notice.
Waiting for the apology, and I would appreciate your issueing it not only here, but everywhere where you espoused your report and thereby accused us of potential breach.
<<If you find anything confusing, be specific so we can improve.>>
Sure, don't bury the information five-levels deep on your website. Far from me trying to mince words, but neither is the information buried, no is it 5 levels deep. If you look at dd24.net, our retail portal, and click on domains, there will be an entry marked "prices". Click it and you find the prices. It is on the third level, in a logical place. If you want to know the prices for domain names, that is where any sensible person would look. If you try to register a domain name, you will also get the specific annual price of that name, presented clear and obvious.
As we offer a wide range of TLDs, the long list of prices may seem confusing to some, but it is the best way to structure the prices so they can be accessed most easily. And you still did not answer the question of what was found to be confusing.
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
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Hi Garth, still waiting for the apology you promised.
Thank you for removing mybuymeds[DOT]com, healthinsurancecapsule[DOT]net, and PAYPILL[DOT]NET.
Can you tell me what German law they violated that smartsshealth[dot]com did not?
Not sure what you mean, as I removed the nameservers on that one personally. It is not resolving on my end, maybe you checked to soon? You _do_ know that it takes a while until the removal of the nameservers spreads through the DNS...
(List of previously reported domain names)
Hmm, I do not see those in the abuse box. When did you report them?
Now, I never said you sponsored bestpillsroom[dot]com. What I said was healthinsurancecapsule[DOT]net looked suspended but redirected there.
Not anymore.
This is also the case with the following KEY-SYSTEMS domains:
I will check those out on Monday if you reported them to abuse. No doubt they will share a similar fate.
Yes, they are part of the report, a major part of the report. We had to leave off the list of ones KEY-SYSTEMS supports because of time and length. They will be listed in any revision as per your request.
Not the report originally presented to ICANN, and not the report I originally commented on. Stealth-added them later, did you?
<<It is however impossible for us to check the use of each domain name registered through our service.>>
I would be happy to do it for you, for free.
Interesting offer, we may get back to you on that. I would like to see you check contents for thousands of domain names every day for a week. Sadly, for security reasons, our registration lists are confidential at this time (competition and all that). If that changes, I'll definitely let you know.
<<More sadly, the registrations arrive from various sources, and do not announce themselves to be what they are upon registration.>>
I can see from your WHOIS Port 43 results that they are coming from VAHGAW[DOT]RU, NAMEOFFC[DOT]RU, JODETI[DOT]RU, and XOOXOX[DOT]RU. Are these nameservers run by your resellers? I think that would be a good place to start looking. Do you remove a reseller when their domains continue to turn up like this?
If a majority of domain names a reseller adds is bad, we do warn and then terminate the agreement, yes. We do not however geo-discriminate. As for nameserver services being run by them, we have no information on who runs those services.
Of course, this is not the case for all of them. clevermeds[DOT]net, easymed2u[DOT]com, easymedforyou[DOT]com, and mysmartmed[DOT]net are served from your very own DOMAINDISCOUNT24.NET.
Well, that happens when you run a highly automated system. Some bad customer registrations are bound to sneak in. But once we find them, they go down and the accounts are closed.
<<But I do pledge I will deactivate any domain name used for illegal (in Germany) purposes as soon as possible whenever I receive notice.>>
Well, you're changing the wording of the pledge. However, tell me in detail what constitutes a German legal violation that would be suitable for future notices (abuse is bcc'ed as requested)
In most cases, German regulations will be similar to those in the US.
<<And you still did not answer the question of what was found to be confusing.>>
Don't have to, you said: "the long list of prices may seem confusing to some"
So the solution in your view would be for us to offer less TLDs? Don't make me laugh. If we started to split up the price list, no doubt you would critize that as well and find someone who finds that "confusing". Some people just are confused, period, no matter what system they are faced with. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net
Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.key-systems.net/facebook www.twitter.com/key_systems
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 1861 - Zweibruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
On 23 July 2010 14:59, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
<<It is however impossible for us to check the use of each domain name
registered through our service.>>
I would be happy to do it for you, for free.
Interesting offer, we may get back to you on that. I would like to see you check contents for thousands of domain names every day for a week. Sadly, for security reasons, our registration lists are confidential at this time (competition and all that). If that changes, I'll definitely let you know.
A very specific Non-Disclosure Agreement between Knujon and Key Systems -- not to reveal client data confidential to Key but allowing Knujon to verify and report back on domains -- might break this logjam, so long as it does not impede Knujon from continuing its existing reporting based on publicly-accessible data. Not a trivial piece of legal wording but not impossible either. - Evan
participants (3)
-
Evan Leibovitch -
Garth Bruen at KnujOn -
Volker Greimann