Evan, Please accept my apologies as I must have been unclear in my earlier email. When I attempted to post a comment I received this message: "The following error(s) occurred: * This installation of Confluence is not set up to permit public signup. Please contact the site administrators <https://community.icann.org/administrators.action> for more information. Being impatient, I did not contact the site administrator and opted to ask Eric to make the post (Thanks Eric). Taking that shortcut has come back to bite me. Sorry for the transgression. But there was a larger error in assuming that all NARLO members would be aware of the utility of a TLD for a large global city like New York. Had I been a more active participant in NARLO over the years, I'd have had the opportunity to make that case. But with that case presented in 158 “chapters” on our wiki <http://bit.ly/OurWiki>, I certainly will not attempt to do so now. And with it taking 158 chapters to present .nyc, I'm obviously not very good at concise and cogent presentations. Be that as it may, I am a bit surprised to find you think so little about the role of a TLD in city life. New York is neither a hell hole nor heaven, but most all here agree that a thoughtfully developed TLD can have a positive role on a variety of aspects of city life in the social, cultural, civic, and economic spheres to name a few; and that the decision to develop the TLD following a Standard Model (e.g, .com) or Community Model (e.g., .nyc, and you gotta read those 158 chapters to fully understand) will have an impact on each of these areas. But as you object to my use of the word "disruption" to describe the impact of using the Standard vs. Community Model, I see I must elaborate. A few of the differences I see from the two models include equitable vs. inequitable distribution of domain names. For example, I've heard it suggested that Rupert Murdock, who has been buying up local community newspapers, is interested in the 352 neighborhood names <http://NYCwiki.org/>. With our civic histories and lives tied into these names, would it be disruptive if those names went to Newscorp? Same with small business, government, tourism, education, community and civic organization names, etc. One can see we are surviving without .nyc, and imagine a greater capacity to influence our future with it. And getting this idea through is hard to put one's finger on. It's tough to say no having improved civic community is disruptive. But I suspect the people who were influenced books such as Bowling Alone <http://bowlingalone.com/> might use a term stronger than disruptive. Grabbing a last example from another of those chapters, there's the not yet fully formed concept of a sustainable TLD. How long must the .nyc TLD serve the needs of our city - 5, 10, or 50 years? I've no idea. But prudence says we should think of .nyc as a sustainable resource. A community plan does that while a standard doesn't. Disruption? Maybe disruptive? Perhaps disasterous. Most importantly, there's a sum of the parts opportunity that might enable us to create a community of 8 million. Several years ago I was in Venice and asked a fellow at a hotel desk if he spoke Italian (my intent was to ask if he spoke English, and I'm uncertain what he gather from my less than well formed question). He stood up, stuck his chest out, fire shot out of his ears, and he declared "I am a Venetian." I'm not clear that we New Yorkers need to spout fire, but not having the critical Internet infrastructure that would enable us to create a more engaged community would be a disappointment. And would New York's being a less intuitive city, a less programmer friendly city (tied into universal tagging <http://www.coactivate.org/projects/campaign-for.nyc/internet-of-things>), with residents not having a stake in its development and maintenance be more of a civic disruptive (perhaps forever) than a single snowstorm? I think so. But I greatly appreciate the NARLO discussion over Pre-Registrations. Other comments at found below. Best, Tom Lowenhaupt ------------------------------------------------------------------------ On 6/13/2011 12:30 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:

Hi Thomas

On 13 June 2011 10:54, Thomas Lowenhaupt <toml@communisphere.com <mailto:toml@communisphere.com>> wrote:

NARLO,

I tried to comment on this "Pre-Registration" post but apparently am not registered (and there's no registration button?).

Have you indeed applied as an At-Large Structure? Have you applied as an individual member of NARALO?

Do you know how to click "add comment" at the bottom of a wiki page? Doing so doesn't require registration.

In the instance of New York City, I can imagine pre-registrations becoming a matter of civic disruption.

see above

I know that the .nyc application is important to you, but I don't think you're helping your cause by engaging in hyperbole.

When I think "civic disruption" I think of garbage strikes, bomb scares, massive public rallies or weather so bad as to cancel air and train travel.

I'm thinking "Die Hard with a Vengence".

I'm not thinking the delayed rollout of a New York TLD.

For example, imagine small businesses predicating their business plans on the availability of .nyc domain names as implied in these pre-registration offers.

I would put to you that predicating one's business plan on a specific Internet domain is inherently foolish for reasons that have zero to do with the ICANN launch process, let along pre-registrations. It's like saying "I might was well close my dress shop down if I can't get my ad on page 19 of next month's Vogue".

I bet there will be strong interest in primary names such as sports.nyc., weather.nyc, and news.nyc and that a successfully introduced TLD and a imaginative and thoughtfully executed business plan could move its developer from a Queens co-op to a Manhattan townhouse.

But I agree that in general, one should not predicate a business plan on a particular domain name. And that's one of the faults of the current pre-registrations: ICANN and the city's acquiescence says something. But with one of the state's businesses today being to influence the public, and especially the poor, to purchase lottery tickets, it seems we've (the state / the people) abdicated on social responsibility. Now its: if you're not smart enough to know that a domain name doesn't buy success, screw you. (But perhaps some of the domain name money will go to education.)

Having a choice domain name -- in .nyc or anywhere else -- is a marketing tactic, that's all. Pretending that it's more than that is a recipe for sadness. And I would absolutely refuse to support -- indeed I might try to undermine -- any effort that advances domains as something they are not.

I don't quite understand. Do you also advocate for corporate and nation-state domains being used for marketing only? Why? Yesterday at INET Tim Berners-Lee also said he was opposed to new TLDs. But I see W3C uses second and third level .org domains, so I'm not clear on his objection either. But he's Royalty and, being a commoner, I should not hope to comprehend. But why our 8 million residents, 300,000 organizatins, and multitude of ideas should be limited to using .nyc for marketing is something I'd like to better understand.

Next the city starts to take a serious look at the social, economic, cultural, and civic impact of .nyc and realizes that such a review will take some time. With cities acting in glacial time rather than Internet time, this could lead to many thousands of disappointed "pre-registrants."

Thus the perfectly reasonable call in the NARALO statement for sufficient warning given to anyone using the service. IE, "If you bet your whole business on getting this name in the next 12 months, you're an idiot.."

We agree.

Now imagine a candidate for mayor, let's say Anthony Weiner - an advanced Internet use - sees this disgruntled group of pre-registrants as a political resource that can become a plank in his campaign, "Elect me mayor and on the first day in office I'll sign off on .nyc - NO DELAY!"

With all due respect, Mr. Wiener may be grasping at any topic that will divert attention away from recent personal issues <http://online.wsj.com/article/AP07b39f36f817432aa1f77c7c78472276.html>. (Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, CNN and Fox ought to be sending him him royalty cheques...)

I could have used any of the apparent candidates for the example, as any would grasp at any straw to get elected. And the pool of those who have been either fooled, or who believe they have or will get a favorable back room deal, will be advocating for the candidate favoring a quick decision. They will use any excuse they can pump up their "TLDs now" plank: "the city needs the money now," "jobs, jobs, jobs," "we must do it today or other cities will do it before us" ...

Of course, most components of delay are beyond the control of even the Mayor of New York. So the Mayor-elect would be simply compounding a problem of promising things that are as yet undeliverable.

Then again, Wierner is a politician, so an ability to promise the undeliverable may be an asset.

Careful what you say about Anthony, he's buff and fast on his feet.

With the ICANN having offered zero, zip, nada, guidance for cities looking into this once-in-an-Internet opportunity,

ICANN owes city-TLDs nothing that isn't given to any other gTLD applicant, except the right of city government to have final signoff on implementation.

Well, maybe not ICANN, but the Internet community should make an effort to provide some assistance to cities (and others). I know that one industry stakeholder segment that hopes to profit from selling registry services is making big "education" contributions. (Last night in a conversation with a city official I mentioned the 40k lobbying fee one prospective registry provider "invested" in our city's "education" about a TLD's potential, and I was corrected with - "it's a lot more than that Tom" and a look that said "Poor man doesn't know the shark-pit he's in.") So those who will profit from a corrupted TLD corrupt the decision making process and ICANN has no responsibility. The NTIA told me there's no budget. Civil society has no money. I do see something special about cities. Certainly they will be able to meliorate the diaspora that resulted from the inadequately planned release of the DNS. And cities are more in need than .ibm, .google, or .sport.

And please spare the continued hyperbole ("once in an Internet" -- Really? REALLY?)

I gather you're Really? REALLY? not a fan of hyperbole.

I can see this as the winning proposition. "There's no evidence to show that city TLDs are other than revenue generating." "Our small businesses need it NOW." "Jobs, jobs, jobs." "Other cities are going to get a jump on us." Etc.

For every small business that needs an .nyc domain, there's another one that looks at .nyc as just another way for the Internet to bleed money from them without adding value.

(Case in point. "nathans.com <http://nathans.com>" already exists and is doing quite well where it is. The existence of .nyc may force Nathan's to take out a defensive registration that it doesn't really need, or to get into a needless bidding war with speculators over "hotdog.nyc". I'm not a native New Yorker and I can think of many, many other examples.)

We're a big fan of Nathans, with our annual "prize.nyc" party there <http://coactivate.org/projects/campaign-for.nyc/blog/2010/08/16/ethan-jacovy...>. The way we see them using it is as follows: Nathan's has stores in about 10 states, and perhaps they'd like to use nathans.nyc for their local stores, for marketing (OK?), for jobs, special events... I'm not sure of the rules on such things, but they might choose to spend $25 a year just to point to the .com, to keep it idle, or some other use.

But you're broader concern is one we share and we're seeking policy and process to avoid as much disruption as possible, perhaps housed within a plan for a sustainable TLD <http://www.coactivate.org/projects/campaign-for.nyc/sustainable-city-tlds>. Thoughts appreciated.

More thoughtful candidates will be left arguing the benefits of infrastructure. ~ Mayor Weiner.

If the .nyc actually becomes a municipal election issue, the TLD itself is the least of the city's problems, IMO.

But why add another. We've got more than our share, IMHO.

- Evan

...

But there was a larger error in assuming that all NARLO members would be aware of the utility of a TLD for a large global city like New York.

Hi. I'm from New York, so I don't have to be as polite as my Canadian friends. City TLDs were a bad idea in 1996, and they're an even worse idea now. Their only transformational effect would be to transform money out of the pockets of the suckers who registered in one into the pocket of the domain's sponsor. (Well, if the past decade is any guide, they will also transform the sponsor's investment into nothing.) Many of us have been around the domain world for rather a long time. For example, I registered my first domain (in the city domain cambridge.ma.us) about 20 years ago, and my .COM in 1993. We are not suffering from a lack of understanding; we probably understand the way domains work as well as anyone. This is the wrong place to look for naifs who are foolish enough to imagine that that new TLDs are anything other than a speculative money grab. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

John, Another politician. Go on say what you think.

City TLDs were a bad idea in 1996, and they're an even worse idea now. Their only transformational effect would be to transform money out of the pockets of the suckers who registered in one into the pocket of the domain's sponsor. (Well, if the past decade is any guide, they will also transform the sponsor's investment into nothing.)

So just throw up your hands and say "Go ignorance, go speculators. We don't care." You say there's no possible way, no matter how carefully a city-TLD is developed, that it will assist the residents and organization of a city. That there are no lessons to be learned from. That all hope is lost. Come on John. If you tried, I bet you could write a City-TLDs for Dummies.

Many of us have been around the domain world for rather a long time. For example, I registered my first domain (in the city domain cambridge.ma.us) about 20 years ago, and my .COM in 1993. We are not suffering from a lack of understanding; we probably understand the way domains work as well as anyone.

That's why I'm hear asking for lessons from positive experiences. Are you saying you can't find a single one. None?

This is the wrong place to look for naifs who are foolish enough to imagine that that new TLDs are anything other than a speculative money grab.

Are you absolutely certain you're not throwing the baby out with the bath water?

Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly

Best, Tom Lowenhaupt

John, I'm told there are a good number of good things about the .cat TLD. And I believe judgment on its success should be on the positive impact it has on the Catalonian community, not number of sales. I'd love to know more about the impact it is having. If 1,000 domain names were carefully developed and it created an improved culture and economy, I'd judge it huge success. This more is better thinking is one of the key problems with the ICANN world. All the money is in sales. Here in New York City "the experts" on TLDs are the companies who will run the computers that manage the names.

From what I'm told, the prospective the registry operators are spending millions to acquire the right. They sell themselves as capable of making sales. With Standard Model thinking, the more sales the more they make.

We ask how many city planners are on the staffs of Verisign and NeuStar?

If there were a baby in with the bilge, we'd have seen or more likely smelled it by now.

There is a promising baby in the bilge. Please take another look (especially at the "Responsibility and Respect for Stakeholders" clause in the NTIA's draft statement of work), and think positively. If city-TLDs are going to work, they need the support of the At Large folks. Best, Tom Lowenhaupt On 6/15/2011 10:42 PM, John R. Levine wrote:

...

You say there's no possible way, no matter how carefully a city-TLD is developed, that it will assist the residents and organization of a city. That there are no lessons to be learned from. That all hope is lost.

I think there are plenty of things one can do to improve the life of a city, but squandering hundreds of thousands of dollars on a vaniity TLD is not one of them.

...

That's why I'm hear asking for lessons from positive experiences. Are you saying you can't find a single one. None?

There's .CAT, which has a rather unique set of historic, political, and geographic circumstances that is unlikely to be repeated anywhere else. Even there, it's at best a modest alternative to .es, and has seen considerably less use than .CH or .HK, each of which covers a population similar to Catalonia's.

...

...

This is the wrong place to look for naifs who are foolish enough to imagine that that new TLDs are anything other than a speculative money grab.

Are you absolutely certain you're not throwing the baby out with the bath water?

If there were a baby in with the bilge, we'd have seen or more likely smelled it by now.

By the way, is anyone here other than me the registry for an actual existing municipal or county domain?

R's, John

On 15 June 2011 21:42, Thomas Lowenhaupt <toml@communisphere.com> wrote:

City TLDs were a bad idea in 1996, and they're an even worse idea now. Their only transformational effect would be to transform money out of the pockets of the suckers who registered in one into the pocket of the domain's sponsor. (Well, if the past decade is any guide, they will also transform the sponsor's investment into nothing.)

So just throw up your hands and say "Go ignorance, go speculators. We don't care."

If anyone's going to toss their money down the drain on domains in what John aptly calls "vanity TLDs", it might as well be speculators. Shouldn't be real people and businesses with real content and sensible business models. And before you start cavalierly tossing around accusations of ignorance, consider that you've been able to counter none of the facts presented with anything more than wishful thinking.

You say there's no possible way, no matter how carefully a city-TLD is developed, that it will assist the residents and organization of a city. That there are no lessons to be learned from. That all hope is lost.

Sure there is some assistance. But that assistance is one of convenience, not necessity, and it's minimal. Very hard to justify given the cost.

Come on John. If you tried, I bet you could write a City-TLDs for Dummies.

I think he already did. The book has one page and the only word on that page is "Don't", in large, friendly letters. The explanation doesn't get much simpler than that. As for the comment in another message, Try, try, try again is my motto, especially when the returns can be so

great. And with the experience of less-than-useful TLDs, how do we develop a better one. Don't give up. Things can get better.

I'm reminded of the quotation often (but not definitively) attributed to Einstein: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" - Evan