Voting None of the Above Re: …
On 15 Jul 2012, at 14:07, Alan Greenberg wrote:
At this point, unless I missed something, we have just one volunteer for the position starting at the end of the AGM, so if that does not change, the past practice would be to acclaim the winner. I Presume there will be a discussion this Monday on whether to try to formally fill the position in the interim, or follow a more ad hoc process.
Although I don't have a vote, and could not even make the last meeting, and thus really have no standing in this topic, I have to say that I would not be able to vote in an election where there was just a single candidate for an office without such an option - and will recommend to the voter in my ALS that he not do so. Now others have offered that this is a reasonable option, but I disagree, as that removes someones ability to vote. If the only way I can vote no is to not vote, my vote has been removed. Aside: Even on local elections, if there is only one candidate, I write in "None of the above." because I beleive that having a choice is more important in the democratic process than any particular choice If people hate the idea of a none of the above option, perhaps we need a write in option. As for the vote versus the consensus, i think this favors the few who actually attend the meeting and does not draw in the rest of the membership. While I think picking an interim chair by consensus of those present is an OK thing, I really think that voting is necessary for leadership positions - otherwise it is always the active few that makes the decisions - shutting out the rest of the membership. No wonder they don't really care about what goes on - it is a 'make the meetings or else' world. One of the major accusations people have about ICANN politics is that it is all done by self-selected cliques. This feeds into that mentality. avri
I would encourage anyone to vote their conscience or put their own name forward while time is left. With that said please consider that I put my name forward partly for the sake of competition within the group. I had no expectations to win by default. Also, these positions are about responsibility and not authority. We are all volunteers and a coordinator of other volunteers is never an easy task. However, I'm hoping for the opportunity to increase voices in the region. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Avri Doria" <avri@ella.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:24 PM To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: .
On 15 Jul 2012, at 14:07, Alan Greenberg wrote:
At this point, unless I missed something, we have just one volunteer for the position starting at the end of the AGM, so if that does not change, the past practice would be to acclaim the winner. I Presume there will be a discussion this Monday on whether to try to formally fill the position in the interim, or follow a more ad hoc process.
Although I don't have a vote, and could not even make the last meeting, and thus really have no standing in this topic, I have to say that I would not be able to vote in an election where there was just a single candidate for an office without such an option - and will recommend to the voter in my ALS that he not do so.
Now others have offered that this is a reasonable option, but I disagree, as that removes someones ability to vote. If the only way I can vote no is to not vote, my vote has been removed.
Aside: Even on local elections, if there is only one candidate, I write in "None of the above." because I beleive that having a choice is more important in the democratic process than any particular choice
If people hate the idea of a none of the above option, perhaps we need a write in option.
As for the vote versus the consensus, i think this favors the few who actually attend the meeting and does not draw in the rest of the membership. While I think picking an interim chair by consensus of those present is an OK thing, I really think that voting is necessary for leadership positions - otherwise it is always the active few that makes the decisions - shutting out the rest of the membership. No wonder they don't really care about what goes on - it is a 'make the meetings or else' world.
One of the major accusations people have about ICANN politics is that it is all done by self-selected cliques. This feeds into that mentality.
avri
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Can someone nominates a candidate named "none of the above"? -ed On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Garth Bruen at Knujon.com < gbruen@knujon.com> wrote:
I would encourage anyone to vote their conscience or put their own name forward while time is left.
With that said please consider that I put my name forward partly for the sake of competition within the group. I had no expectations to win by default.
Also, these positions are about responsibility and not authority. We are all volunteers and a coordinator of other volunteers is never an easy task. However, I'm hoping for the opportunity to increase voices in the region.
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Avri Doria" <avri@ella.com> Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 12:24 PM To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: .
On 15 Jul 2012, at 14:07, Alan Greenberg wrote:
At this point, unless I missed something, we have just one volunteer for the position starting at the end of the AGM, so if that does not change, the past practice would be to acclaim the winner. I Presume there will
be
a discussion this Monday on whether to try to formally fill the position in the interim, or follow a more ad hoc process.
Although I don't have a vote, and could not even make the last meeting, and thus really have no standing in this topic, I have to say that I would not be able to vote in an election where there was just a single candidate for an office without such an option - and will recommend to the voter in my ALS that he not do so.
Now others have offered that this is a reasonable option, but I disagree, as that removes someones ability to vote. If the only way I can vote no is to not vote, my vote has been removed.
Aside: Even on local elections, if there is only one candidate, I write in "None of the above." because I beleive that having a choice is more important in the democratic process than any particular choice
If people hate the idea of a none of the above option, perhaps we need a write in option.
As for the vote versus the consensus, i think this favors the few who actually attend the meeting and does not draw in the rest of the membership. While I think picking an interim chair by consensus of those present is an OK thing, I really think that voting is necessary for leadership positions - otherwise it is always the active few that makes the decisions - shutting out the rest of the membership. No wonder they don't really care about what goes on - it is a 'make the meetings or else' world.
One of the major accusations people have about ICANN politics is that it is all done by self-selected cliques. This feeds into that mentality.
avri
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I've actually had the (dis)pleasure of witnessing elections in which NOTA won despite the presence of qualified and competent nominees. They were grotesque in execution, poisoned the group dynamic and led to the departure of humiliated but badly needed volunteers. The people involved in running the above campaigns saw the error of what they'd done -- too late to bring back the departed volunteers, though -- and implemented statutes to prevent NOTA's ever being done again in those groups. That was more than 20 years ago; I really never thought I'd encounter this absolute perversion of democracy ever again. Which of course means it's natural I'd find it within the alternate reality that is ICANN -- but thankfully as a minority PoV. Whatever theoretical bliss is envisioned by having the option, IMO, is overwhelmingly counterbalanced by the recriminations and hurt feelings -- not always overt but always in evidence, when such a horrific scheme is implemented. This is especially true within a volunteer body that needs all the human resources it can get, and for which the leadership positions have very little real power. - Evan
If people hate the idea of a none of the above option, perhaps we need a write in option.
Given the dearth of volunteers in the NARALO, we really appreciate your offer to run in each otherwise uncontested elections and, of course, to diligently do the work if elected. R's, John
John, John John It is not like I already do not volunteer for lots of things. So your argument by derision is really rather empty. I contend that often the reason people don't volunteer is the derision machine that so many encounter when they have an idea that does not meet the approval of the cynical graybeards. And just because I do not think you are really hearing what I am saying, I have nothing against the folks doing the jobs. I just think we need democracy on doing our bottom-up selection. And where I grew up, we thought that one person elections were considered undemocratic. avri On 18 Jul 2012, at 14:26, John R. Levine wrote:
If people hate the idea of a none of the above option, perhaps we need a write in option.
Given the dearth of volunteers in the NARALO, we really appreciate your offer to run in each otherwise uncontested elections and, of course, to diligently do the work if elected.
R's, John
So your argument by derision is really rather empty.
I contend that often the reason people don't volunteer is the derision machine that so many encounter when they have an idea that does not meet the approval of the cynical graybeards.
Actually, I was serious. But your position that it is very important for other people to do NARALO work, but not important enough for you to do any is noted. Personally, I'm amazed that anyone is willing to do a job that takes a lot of time, pays nothing, and has little visible effect. ICANN should be more appreciative than they are. R's, John
Hi, I am really not making myself clear. 1. I appreciate the work others are doing and am glad we have those who are willing to step up. And they seem like real good folks I can support, 2. No, i am not volunteering for a NARALO task at this point, though I do already volunteer for several At-Large tasks and am still learning my way around the At-LArge environment. I think 3 tasks is my limit for now. Someday I may consider putting myself forward as a volunteer for one of the NARALO leadership tasks, but this is not my time to do so. Then again, as I said in (1), I think we have good volunteers for the leadership roles and I feel no need to stand against any of them. 3. Wanting a ballot and wanting 'none of the above ' on the ballot does not mean i want to vote 'none of the above' (see above). I just think 1 person elections are incomplete democracy and are so easy to fix. i.e, by adding 'none of the above' to the ballot. 4. Mostly nobody, or close to nobody, ever votes 'none of the above' and that is really cool. (from personal experience of having run against 'none of the above' on several occasions, it is a wonderful relief when the results include few to no such votes.) 5. But if anyone _had_ felt the need to vote 'none of the above', they _could_ have done so. And that is what matters to me. But I don't know if my ALS even agrees with me. cheers avri On 18 Jul 2012, at 14:43, John R. Levine wrote:
So your argument by derision is really rather empty.
I contend that often the reason people don't volunteer is the derision machine that so many encounter when they have an idea that does not meet the approval of the cynical graybeards.
Actually, I was serious. But your position that it is very important for other people to do NARALO work, but not important enough for you to do any is noted.
Personally, I'm amazed that anyone is willing to do a job that takes a lot of time, pays nothing, and has little visible effect. ICANN should be more appreciative than they are.
R's, John
Hey I though of one thing I can volunteer to do. If we have a ballot, i volunteer to work with the leadership to help pester the leaders of the ALSes to vote. I have done that before in other contexts and know how to pester people. avri On 18 Jul 2012, at 15:18, Avri Doria wrote:
Hi,
I am really not making myself clear.
1. I appreciate the work others are doing and am glad we have those who are willing to step up. And they seem like real good folks I can support,
2. No, i am not volunteering for a NARALO task at this point, though I do already volunteer for several At-Large tasks and am still learning my way around the At-LArge environment. I think 3 tasks is my limit for now. Someday I may consider putting myself forward as a volunteer for one of the NARALO leadership tasks, but this is not my time to do so. Then again, as I said in (1), I think we have good volunteers for the leadership roles and I feel no need to stand against any of them.
3. Wanting a ballot and wanting 'none of the above ' on the ballot does not mean i want to vote 'none of the above' (see above). I just think 1 person elections are incomplete democracy and are so easy to fix. i.e, by adding 'none of the above' to the ballot.
4. Mostly nobody, or close to nobody, ever votes 'none of the above' and that is really cool. (from personal experience of having run against 'none of the above' on several occasions, it is a wonderful relief when the results include few to no such votes.)
5. But if anyone _had_ felt the need to vote 'none of the above', they _could_ have done so.
And that is what matters to me. But I don't know if my ALS even agrees with me.
cheers
avri
On 18 Jul 2012, at 14:43, John R. Levine wrote:
So your argument by derision is really rather empty.
I contend that often the reason people don't volunteer is the derision machine that so many encounter when they have an idea that does not meet the approval of the cynical graybeards.
Actually, I was serious. But your position that it is very important for other people to do NARALO work, but not important enough for you to do any is noted.
Personally, I'm amazed that anyone is willing to do a job that takes a lot of time, pays nothing, and has little visible effect. ICANN should be more appreciative than they are.
R's, John
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Hey Avri and All, I just want to point out that one does not have to be the elected rep of an ALS in order to run for any leadership position. You just need to be a member of NARAlO. As an example, Beau wasn't the elected rep of our Unaffiliated ALS but had every right to run for and achieve Chair. Right now, we won't even be having an election unless someone else steps up for one of the positions. That has always been the way we have run things and it seems ridiculous to me to run an election if there are no contestants. So, Avri, although you aren't the elected spokesperson of your ALS you DO have every right to run for office and I encourage you to do so. Everybody, we have about two weeks before the closure of the "gathering of SOIs" phase is done so I would encourage all that if you are interested at all in running for office to please do so. D Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] on behalf of Avri Doria [avri@ella.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:43 PM To: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: … Hey I though of one thing I can volunteer to do. If we have a ballot, i volunteer to work with the leadership to help pester the leaders of the ALSes to vote. I have done that before in other contexts and know how to pester people. avri On 18 Jul 2012, at 15:18, Avri Doria wrote:
Hi,
I am really not making myself clear.
1. I appreciate the work others are doing and am glad we have those who are willing to step up. And they seem like real good folks I can support,
2. No, i am not volunteering for a NARALO task at this point, though I do already volunteer for several At-Large tasks and am still learning my way around the At-LArge environment. I think 3 tasks is my limit for now. Someday I may consider putting myself forward as a volunteer for one of the NARALO leadership tasks, but this is not my time to do so. Then again, as I said in (1), I think we have good volunteers for the leadership roles and I feel no need to stand against any of them.
3. Wanting a ballot and wanting 'none of the above ' on the ballot does not mean i want to vote 'none of the above' (see above). I just think 1 person elections are incomplete democracy and are so easy to fix. i.e, by adding 'none of the above' to the ballot.
4. Mostly nobody, or close to nobody, ever votes 'none of the above' and that is really cool. (from personal experience of having run against 'none of the above' on several occasions, it is a wonderful relief when the results include few to no such votes.)
5. But if anyone _had_ felt the need to vote 'none of the above', they _could_ have done so.
And that is what matters to me. But I don't know if my ALS even agrees with me.
cheers
avri
On 18 Jul 2012, at 14:43, John R. Levine wrote:
So your argument by derision is really rather empty.
I contend that often the reason people don't volunteer is the derision machine that so many encounter when they have an idea that does not meet the approval of the cynical graybeards.
Actually, I was serious. But your position that it is very important for other people to do NARALO work, but not important enough for you to do any is noted.
Personally, I'm amazed that anyone is willing to do a job that takes a lot of time, pays nothing, and has little visible effect. ICANN should be more appreciative than they are.
R's, John
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Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
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Suggestion: a fresh formal request for candidates document that can be widely circulated? Including some descriptive blurb. It may, at least, scare up a few new members. j On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 5:40 PM, Thompson, Darlene <DThompson1@gov.nu.ca>wrote:
Hey Avri and All,
I just want to point out that one does not have to be the elected rep of an ALS in order to run for any leadership position. You just need to be a member of NARAlO. As an example, Beau wasn't the elected rep of our Unaffiliated ALS but had every right to run for and achieve Chair.
Right now, we won't even be having an election unless someone else steps up for one of the positions. That has always been the way we have run things and it seems ridiculous to me to run an election if there are no contestants. So, Avri, although you aren't the elected spokesperson of your ALS you DO have every right to run for office and I encourage you to do so.
Everybody, we have about two weeks before the closure of the "gathering of SOIs" phase is done so I would encourage all that if you are interested at all in running for office to please do so.
D
Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [ na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] on behalf of Avri Doria [ avri@ella.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:43 PM To: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
Hey I though of one thing I can volunteer to do.
If we have a ballot, i volunteer to work with the leadership to help pester the leaders of the ALSes to vote. I have done that before in other contexts and know how to pester people.
avri
On 18 Jul 2012, at 15:18, Avri Doria wrote:
Hi,
I am really not making myself clear.
1. I appreciate the work others are doing and am glad we have those who are willing to step up. And they seem like real good folks I can support,
2. No, i am not volunteering for a NARALO task at this point, though I do already volunteer for several At-Large tasks and am still learning my way around the At-LArge environment. I think 3 tasks is my limit for now. Someday I may consider putting myself forward as a volunteer for one of the NARALO leadership tasks, but this is not my time to do so. Then again, as I said in (1), I think we have good volunteers for the leadership roles and I feel no need to stand against any of them.
3. Wanting a ballot and wanting 'none of the above ' on the ballot does not mean i want to vote 'none of the above' (see above). I just think 1 person elections are incomplete democracy and are so easy to fix. i.e, by adding 'none of the above' to the ballot.
4. Mostly nobody, or close to nobody, ever votes 'none of the above' and that is really cool. (from personal experience of having run against 'none of the above' on several occasions, it is a wonderful relief when the results include few to no such votes.)
5. But if anyone _had_ felt the need to vote 'none of the above', they _could_ have done so.
And that is what matters to me. But I don't know if my ALS even agrees with me.
cheers
avri
On 18 Jul 2012, at 14:43, John R. Levine wrote:
So your argument by derision is really rather empty.
I contend that often the reason people don't volunteer is the derision machine that so many encounter when they have an idea that does not meet the approval of the cynical graybeards.
Actually, I was serious. But your position that it is very important for other people to do NARALO work, but not important enough for you to do any is noted.
Personally, I'm amazed that anyone is willing to do a job that takes a lot of time, pays nothing, and has little visible effect. ICANN should be more appreciative than they are.
R's, John
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Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
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Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
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Ack! Well, this is going out to the entire list. An SOI doesn't have to be majorly formal at all. Just a statement about who you are and why you are going for whatever position is perfectly acceptable. Let's not make this any more difficult than it needs to be. If anybody is at all interested in any position, please, please, please come forward! D Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: joly.nyc@gmail.com [joly.nyc@gmail.com] on behalf of Joly MacFie [joly@punkcast.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 6:29 PM To: Thompson, Darlene Cc: Avri Doria; NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: … Suggestion: a fresh formal request for candidates document that can be widely circulated? Including some descriptive blurb. It may, at least, scare up a few new members. j On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 5:40 PM, Thompson, Darlene <DThompson1@gov.nu.ca<mailto:DThompson1@gov.nu.ca>> wrote: Hey Avri and All, I just want to point out that one does not have to be the elected rep of an ALS in order to run for any leadership position. You just need to be a member of NARAlO. As an example, Beau wasn't the elected rep of our Unaffiliated ALS but had every right to run for and achieve Chair. Right now, we won't even be having an election unless someone else steps up for one of the positions. That has always been the way we have run things and it seems ridiculous to me to run an election if there are no contestants. So, Avri, although you aren't the elected spokesperson of your ALS you DO have every right to run for office and I encourage you to do so. Everybody, we have about two weeks before the closure of the "gathering of SOIs" phase is done so I would encourage all that if you are interested at all in running for office to please do so. D Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631<tel:%28867%29%20975-5631> Fax: (867) 975-5610<tel:%28867%29%20975-5610> dthompson@gov.nu.ca<mailto:dthompson@gov.nu.ca> ________________________________________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> [na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org<mailto:na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org>] on behalf of Avri Doria [avri@ella.com<mailto:avri@ella.com>] Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 3:43 PM To: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: … Hey I though of one thing I can volunteer to do. If we have a ballot, i volunteer to work with the leadership to help pester the leaders of the ALSes to vote. I have done that before in other contexts and know how to pester people. avri On 18 Jul 2012, at 15:18, Avri Doria wrote:
Hi,
I am really not making myself clear.
1. I appreciate the work others are doing and am glad we have those who are willing to step up. And they seem like real good folks I can support,
2. No, i am not volunteering for a NARALO task at this point, though I do already volunteer for several At-Large tasks and am still learning my way around the At-LArge environment. I think 3 tasks is my limit for now. Someday I may consider putting myself forward as a volunteer for one of the NARALO leadership tasks, but this is not my time to do so. Then again, as I said in (1), I think we have good volunteers for the leadership roles and I feel no need to stand against any of them.
3. Wanting a ballot and wanting 'none of the above ' on the ballot does not mean i want to vote 'none of the above' (see above). I just think 1 person elections are incomplete democracy and are so easy to fix. i.e, by adding 'none of the above' to the ballot.
4. Mostly nobody, or close to nobody, ever votes 'none of the above' and that is really cool. (from personal experience of having run against 'none of the above' on several occasions, it is a wonderful relief when the results include few to no such votes.)
5. But if anyone _had_ felt the need to vote 'none of the above', they _could_ have done so.
And that is what matters to me. But I don't know if my ALS even agrees with me.
cheers
avri
On 18 Jul 2012, at 14:43, John R. Levine wrote:
So your argument by derision is really rather empty.
I contend that often the reason people don't volunteer is the derision machine that so many encounter when they have an idea that does not meet the approval of the cynical graybeards.
Actually, I was serious. But your position that it is very important for other people to do NARALO work, but not important enough for you to do any is noted.
Personally, I'm amazed that anyone is willing to do a job that takes a lot of time, pays nothing, and has little visible effect. ICANN should be more appreciative than they are.
R's, John
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Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
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Avri: I understand what you are saying but what happens if none of the above wins? Then what? -ed On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Avri Doria <avri@ella.com> wrote:
Hi,
I am really not making myself clear.
1. I appreciate the work others are doing and am glad we have those who are willing to step up. And they seem like real good folks I can support,
2. No, i am not volunteering for a NARALO task at this point, though I do already volunteer for several At-Large tasks and am still learning my way around the At-LArge environment. I think 3 tasks is my limit for now. Someday I may consider putting myself forward as a volunteer for one of the NARALO leadership tasks, but this is not my time to do so. Then again, as I said in (1), I think we have good volunteers for the leadership roles and I feel no need to stand against any of them.
3. Wanting a ballot and wanting 'none of the above ' on the ballot does not mean i want to vote 'none of the above' (see above). I just think 1 person elections are incomplete democracy and are so easy to fix. i.e, by adding 'none of the above' to the ballot.
4. Mostly nobody, or close to nobody, ever votes 'none of the above' and that is really cool. (from personal experience of having run against 'none of the above' on several occasions, it is a wonderful relief when the results include few to no such votes.)
5. But if anyone _had_ felt the need to vote 'none of the above', they _could_ have done so.
And that is what matters to me. But I don't know if my ALS even agrees with me.
cheers
avri
On 18 Jul 2012, at 14:43, John R. Levine wrote:
So your argument by derision is really rather empty.
I contend that often the reason people don't volunteer is the derision machine that so many encounter when they have an idea that does not meet the approval of the cynical graybeards.
Actually, I was serious. But your position that it is very important for other people to do NARALO work, but not important enough for you to do any is noted.
Personally, I'm amazed that anyone is willing to do a job that takes a lot of time, pays nothing, and has little visible effect. ICANN should be more appreciative than they are.
R's, John
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Anarchy! On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Eduardo Diaz <eduardodiazrivera@gmail.com>wrote:
Avri:
I understand what you are saying but what happens if none of the above wins? Then what?
-ed
On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Avri Doria <avri@ella.com> wrote:
Hi,
I am really not making myself clear.
1. I appreciate the work others are doing and am glad we have those who are willing to step up. And they seem like real good folks I can support,
2. No, i am not volunteering for a NARALO task at this point, though I do already volunteer for several At-Large tasks and am still learning my way around the At-LArge environment. I think 3 tasks is my limit for now. Someday I may consider putting myself forward as a volunteer for one of the NARALO leadership tasks, but this is not my time to do so. Then again, as I said in (1), I think we have good volunteers for the leadership roles and I feel no need to stand against any of them.
3. Wanting a ballot and wanting 'none of the above ' on the ballot does not mean i want to vote 'none of the above' (see above). I just think 1 person elections are incomplete democracy and are so easy to fix. i.e, by adding 'none of the above' to the ballot.
4. Mostly nobody, or close to nobody, ever votes 'none of the above' and that is really cool. (from personal experience of having run against 'none of the above' on several occasions, it is a wonderful relief when the results include few to no such votes.)
5. But if anyone _had_ felt the need to vote 'none of the above', they _could_ have done so.
And that is what matters to me. But I don't know if my ALS even agrees with me.
cheers
avri
On 18 Jul 2012, at 14:43, John R. Levine wrote:
So your argument by derision is really rather empty.
I contend that often the reason people don't volunteer is the derision machine that so many encounter when they have an idea that does not meet the approval of the cynical graybeards.
Actually, I was serious. But your position that it is very important for other people to do NARALO work, but not important enough for you to do any is noted.
Personally, I'm amazed that anyone is willing to do a job that takes a lot of time, pays nothing, and has little visible effect. ICANN should be more appreciative than they are.
R's, John
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Hi, I guess we talk about how to fix whatever it is that happens to be broken at that point in time - perhaps we need to talk about a real issue - perhaps we just need to find another candidate But if it ever were to happen, it would be a phenomenal indication we should not ignore. avri On 18 Jul 2012, at 15:44, Eduardo Diaz wrote:
Avri:
I understand what you are saying but what happens if none of the above wins? Then what?
-ed
On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Avri Doria <avri@ella.com> wrote: Hi,
I am really not making myself clear.
1. I appreciate the work others are doing and am glad we have those who are willing to step up. And they seem like real good folks I can support,
2. No, i am not volunteering for a NARALO task at this point, though I do already volunteer for several At-Large tasks and am still learning my way around the At-LArge environment. I think 3 tasks is my limit for now. Someday I may consider putting myself forward as a volunteer for one of the NARALO leadership tasks, but this is not my time to do so. Then again, as I said in (1), I think we have good volunteers for the leadership roles and I feel no need to stand against any of them.
3. Wanting a ballot and wanting 'none of the above ' on the ballot does not mean i want to vote 'none of the above' (see above). I just think 1 person elections are incomplete democracy and are so easy to fix. i.e, by adding 'none of the above' to the ballot.
4. Mostly nobody, or close to nobody, ever votes 'none of the above' and that is really cool. (from personal experience of having run against 'none of the above' on several occasions, it is a wonderful relief when the results include few to no such votes.)
5. But if anyone _had_ felt the need to vote 'none of the above', they _could_ have done so.
And that is what matters to me. But I don't know if my ALS even agrees with me.
cheers
avri
On 18 Jul 2012, at 14:43, John R. Levine wrote:
So your argument by derision is really rather empty.
I contend that often the reason people don't volunteer is the derision machine that so many encounter when they have an idea that does not meet the approval of the cynical graybeards.
Actually, I was serious. But your position that it is very important for other people to do NARALO work, but not important enough for you to do any is noted.
Personally, I'm amazed that anyone is willing to do a job that takes a lot of time, pays nothing, and has little visible effect. ICANN should be more appreciative than they are.
R's, John
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I guess we talk about how to fix whatever it is that happens to be broken at that point in time
Can we assume you'll be volunteering to identify and make the fix? Really, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to run for NARALO or any other elected position. But you don't do that and then complain when everyone else does the same thing. R's, John
This feels (yet again) like a conversation being had by the same few people. Has anyone considered that the reason only one person is standing for each of four posts is that no one outside this small group is actually aware of the election? Or that because there is such little effort to engage broadly that they don't see any good reason to put themselves forward? Will you all *please* consider that you are supposed to be representing the Internet users of the whole of North America - millions of people - within a crucial Internet body. Avri is right btw. Kieren [from mobile device] On Jul 18, 2012, at 1:31 PM, "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
I guess we talk about how to fix whatever it is that happens to be broken at that point in time
Can we assume you'll be volunteering to identify and make the fix?
Really, there's nothing wrong with not wanting to run for NARALO or any other elected position. But you don't do that and then complain when everyone else does the same thing.
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Has anyone considered that the reason only one person is standing for each of four posts is that no one outside this small group is actually aware of the election?
Pretty sure that's not it.
Or that because there is such little effort to engage broadly that they don't see any good reason to put themselves forward?
Don't think that's it either.
Will you all *please* consider that you are supposed to be representing the Internet users of the whole of North America - millions of people - within a crucial Internet body.
With a $0 budget. Get real. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly
At the risk at getting embroiled in pointless name-calling, John I think you are demonstrating precisely the mindset that is behind the reason that only one person is standing for each of the four positions. So here are some questions: * How many NARALO members are there? * How many ALSes in North America are there? * How many individuals are subscribed to this mailing list? * What is the subscribe/unsubscribe rate of the list each month for the past six months? * How many individuals engage on this mailing list? * Is there an NARALO Facebook page? * Is there an NARALO Twitter presence? * Is there a NARALO newsletter? How many are subscribed to it? * Is there a NARALO summary of events for members for ICANN Prague? These are basic questions, basic steps for a grassroots organization. And they all cost $0. Kieren On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 4:53 PM, John R. Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
Has anyone considered that the reason only one person is standing for each
of four posts is that no one outside this small group is actually aware of the election?
Pretty sure that's not it.
Or that because there is such little effort to engage broadly that they
don't see any good reason to put themselves forward?
Don't think that's it either.
Will you all *please* consider that you are supposed to be representing
the Internet users of the whole of North America - millions of people - within a crucial Internet body.
With a $0 budget. Get real.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly
* How many NARALO members are there? * How many ALSes in North America are there? * How many individuals are subscribed to this mailing list? * What is the subscribe/unsubscribe rate of the list each month for the past six months? * How many individuals engage on this mailing list? * Is there an NARALO Facebook page? * Is there an NARALO Twitter presence? * Is there a NARALO newsletter? How many are subscribed to it? * Is there a NARALO summary of events for members for ICANN Prague?
The pattern here appears to be that NARALO members aren't willing to work for ICANN for free. Uh, no kidding. Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly
We're all concerned about this from various perspectives. Let's make a point to sit down in Toronto and discuss... -------------------------------------------------- From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 1:15 PM To: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> Cc: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss]Voting None of the Above Re: .
* How many NARALO members are there? * How many ALSes in North America are there? * How many individuals are subscribed to this mailing list? * What is the subscribe/unsubscribe rate of the list each month for the past six months? * How many individuals engage on this mailing list? * Is there an NARALO Facebook page? * Is there an NARALO Twitter presence? * Is there a NARALO newsletter? How many are subscribed to it? * Is there a NARALO summary of events for members for ICANN Prague?
The pattern here appears to be that NARALO members aren't willing to work for ICANN for free. Uh, no kidding.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss
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Hi, One should remember that most people in the world have no idea that ICANN even exists, much less what it does. We techies forget that outside of our little world, no one knows about what we do. If you are not sure about this, ask 100 random people about ICANN. 'RALOs may represent a lot of people, but those people do not know that. Many governments and the UN have only recently begun to grasp the meaning of ICANN in the past few years. It's hard to get volunteers when the pool being drawn from is small because only a relative few know about it and understand it It is sort of like trying to large numbers of people to help solve those PDEs you have. $0.02 --bob On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, John R. Levine wrote:
* How many NARALO members are there? * How many ALSes in North America are there? * How many individuals are subscribed to this mailing list? * What is the subscribe/unsubscribe rate of the list each month for the past six months? * How many individuals engage on this mailing list? * Is there an NARALO Facebook page? * Is there an NARALO Twitter presence? * Is there a NARALO newsletter? How many are subscribed to it? * Is there a NARALO summary of events for members for ICANN Prague?
The pattern here appears to be that NARALO members aren't willing to work for ICANN for free. Uh, no kidding.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss
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-- Dr. Robert Bruen Cold Rain Labs http://coldrain.net/bruen +1.802.579.6288
Hi, Doesn't this mean we really need to do outreach to the ALS that form the RALO to make sure that at least those organizations that have heard of ICANN and joined a RALO, are frequently invited into the discussion? And I know it isn't easy. We seem to have 22 ALSes in NARALO. How many participate in meeting? in votes? avri On 19 Jul 2012, at 14:01, Bob Bruen wrote:
Hi,
One should remember that most people in the world have no idea that ICANN even exists, much less what it does. We techies forget that outside of our little world, no one knows about what we do. If you are not sure about this, ask 100 random people about ICANN.
'RALOs may represent a lot of people, but those people do not know that. Many governments and the UN have only recently begun to grasp the meaning of ICANN in the past few years.
It's hard to get volunteers when the pool being drawn from is small because only a relative few know about it and understand it
It is sort of like trying to large numbers of people to help solve those PDEs you have.
$0.02 --bob
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, John R. Levine wrote:
* How many NARALO members are there? * How many ALSes in North America are there? * How many individuals are subscribed to this mailing list? * What is the subscribe/unsubscribe rate of the list each month for the past six months? * How many individuals engage on this mailing list? * Is there an NARALO Facebook page? * Is there an NARALO Twitter presence? * Is there a NARALO newsletter? How many are subscribed to it? * Is there a NARALO summary of events for members for ICANN Prague?
The pattern here appears to be that NARALO members aren't willing to work for ICANN for free. Uh, no kidding.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
-- Dr. Robert Bruen Cold Rain Labs http://coldrain.net/bruen +1.802.579.6288
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Hey Avri, We regular,y get 10 - 14 people on our conference calls. If you can suggest a way to get more I would love to hear it! D Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] on behalf of Avri Doria [avri@ella.com] Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 3:36 PM To: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: … Hi, Doesn't this mean we really need to do outreach to the ALS that form the RALO to make sure that at least those organizations that have heard of ICANN and joined a RALO, are frequently invited into the discussion? And I know it isn't easy. We seem to have 22 ALSes in NARALO. How many participate in meeting? in votes? avri On 19 Jul 2012, at 14:01, Bob Bruen wrote:
Hi,
One should remember that most people in the world have no idea that ICANN even exists, much less what it does. We techies forget that outside of our little world, no one knows about what we do. If you are not sure about this, ask 100 random people about ICANN.
'RALOs may represent a lot of people, but those people do not know that. Many governments and the UN have only recently begun to grasp the meaning of ICANN in the past few years.
It's hard to get volunteers when the pool being drawn from is small because only a relative few know about it and understand it
It is sort of like trying to large numbers of people to help solve those PDEs you have.
$0.02 --bob
On Thu, 19 Jul 2012, John R. Levine wrote:
* How many NARALO members are there? * How many ALSes in North America are there? * How many individuals are subscribed to this mailing list? * What is the subscribe/unsubscribe rate of the list each month for the past six months? * How many individuals engage on this mailing list? * Is there an NARALO Facebook page? * Is there an NARALO Twitter presence? * Is there a NARALO newsletter? How many are subscribed to it? * Is there a NARALO summary of events for members for ICANN Prague?
The pattern here appears to be that NARALO members aren't willing to work for ICANN for free. Uh, no kidding.
Regards, John Levine, johnl@iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. http://jl.ly ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
-- Dr. Robert Bruen Cold Rain Labs http://coldrain.net/bruen +1.802.579.6288
------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
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On 19 July 2012 12:39, Kieren McCarthy <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> wrote: *At the risk at getting embroiled in pointless name-calling, John I think
you are demonstrating precisely the mindset that is behind the reason that only one person is standing for each of the four positions.*
Kieren, you *are* getting embrolied in pointless name calling. Funny that you suddenly seem so interested in At-Large issues when it comes to our internals. We've been active in promoting end-user sensibilities in WHOIS, gTLD, trademark, internationalization and other issues. I've personally been trying -- practically begging, since before Prague -- to get you to even LOOK at the R3 white paper At-Large has produced, an broadly-crafted attempt to make ICANN more representative of (and accountable to) the world at large. You've been WAY too busy for that. But not too busy to gawk at an unfortunate personal issue, and pass judgement on a consensus process that seems to work for most. Like most decision-making systems, it's imperfect. But it does result in NARALO members' initiating more than its share of ALAC policy initiatives, and still being the one of the only regions with a formal acceptance of participants who aren't part of an ALS. And yet... Rather than focus on the substance of what we're actually trying to say -- which you have completely ignored to date -- you seek to dwell on the "what gives you the right to say it?" approach. Sorry there wasn't any tabloid fodder for you on Monday (the first NARALO call you've attended ... ever?). No meltdown. Not even raised voices. Just talk about policy, planning for the Toronto meeting, and ensuring the everyone who had something to say on our internal issues was heard, Smoothly run and ended on time. But judging from your takeaway comments, Plan B appears to be focusing on why At-Large doesn't function more like Amway. *So here are some questions:* Really? REALLY? Are you really asking volunteers to provide the research that you will then turn around and sell to others? And then complain that we don't have enough time for <insert your pet issue here>? If your questions are intended to discover holes in ICANN's At-Large outreach strategies, you'll have an easy time of it once you do the research. If your intentions are indeed constructive, you're welcome to join us in advocating At-Large growth through anywhere near the kind of resources that ICANN expends to grow its pool of registrars and TLDs. But the tone just appears as building a case for diverting our limited volunteer resources away from understanding and shaping the ICANN labyrinth, and towards recruitment. No thanks. My ALS (and a number of others) was discovered and brought in by Jacob Malthouse, an ICANN staffer whose job it was to go out and engage members of the public who'd never heard of ICANN -- let alone cared about it -- and convince them to get them involved. Jacob's job was difficult; too bad you can't ask him about it because his position no longer exists, so it's no surprise the job isn't being done anymore. NARALO has made proposals to duplicate this task using volunteers instead of staff, but our request to get even basic expenses covered for this project has been turned down for two (or it it three?) years in a row. *These are basic questions, basic steps for a grassroots organization.
And they all cost $0.*
How sad that you consider volunteer time to be worthless. Mine isn't. - Evan
+1 Very well said. D Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] on behalf of Evan Leibovitch [evan@telly.org] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 2:20 AM To: Kieren McCarthy Cc: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: … On 19 July 2012 12:39, Kieren McCarthy <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> wrote: *At the risk at getting embroiled in pointless name-calling, John I think
you are demonstrating precisely the mindset that is behind the reason that only one person is standing for each of the four positions.*
Kieren, you *are* getting embrolied in pointless name calling. Funny that you suddenly seem so interested in At-Large issues when it comes to our internals. We've been active in promoting end-user sensibilities in WHOIS, gTLD, trademark, internationalization and other issues. I've personally been trying -- practically begging, since before Prague -- to get you to even LOOK at the R3 white paper At-Large has produced, an broadly-crafted attempt to make ICANN more representative of (and accountable to) the world at large. You've been WAY too busy for that. But not too busy to gawk at an unfortunate personal issue, and pass judgement on a consensus process that seems to work for most. Like most decision-making systems, it's imperfect. But it does result in NARALO members' initiating more than its share of ALAC policy initiatives, and still being the one of the only regions with a formal acceptance of participants who aren't part of an ALS. And yet... Rather than focus on the substance of what we're actually trying to say -- which you have completely ignored to date -- you seek to dwell on the "what gives you the right to say it?" approach. Sorry there wasn't any tabloid fodder for you on Monday (the first NARALO call you've attended ... ever?). No meltdown. Not even raised voices. Just talk about policy, planning for the Toronto meeting, and ensuring the everyone who had something to say on our internal issues was heard, Smoothly run and ended on time. But judging from your takeaway comments, Plan B appears to be focusing on why At-Large doesn't function more like Amway. *So here are some questions:* Really? REALLY? Are you really asking volunteers to provide the research that you will then turn around and sell to others? And then complain that we don't have enough time for <insert your pet issue here>? If your questions are intended to discover holes in ICANN's At-Large outreach strategies, you'll have an easy time of it once you do the research. If your intentions are indeed constructive, you're welcome to join us in advocating At-Large growth through anywhere near the kind of resources that ICANN expends to grow its pool of registrars and TLDs. But the tone just appears as building a case for diverting our limited volunteer resources away from understanding and shaping the ICANN labyrinth, and towards recruitment. No thanks. My ALS (and a number of others) was discovered and brought in by Jacob Malthouse, an ICANN staffer whose job it was to go out and engage members of the public who'd never heard of ICANN -- let alone cared about it -- and convince them to get them involved. Jacob's job was difficult; too bad you can't ask him about it because his position no longer exists, so it's no surprise the job isn't being done anymore. NARALO has made proposals to duplicate this task using volunteers instead of staff, but our request to get even basic expenses covered for this project has been turned down for two (or it it three?) years in a row. *These are basic questions, basic steps for a grassroots organization.
And they all cost $0.*
How sad that you consider volunteer time to be worthless. Mine isn't. - Evan ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
Well I think you've both just answered the question as to why there are so few people engaged in NARALO. Kieren [from mobile device] On Jul 20, 2012, at 3:50 AM, "Thompson, Darlene" <DThompson1@GOV.NU.CA> wrote:
+1
Very well said.
D
Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] on behalf of Evan Leibovitch [evan@telly.org] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 2:20 AM To: Kieren McCarthy Cc: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
On 19 July 2012 12:39, Kieren McCarthy <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> wrote:
*At the risk at getting embroiled in pointless name-calling, John I think
you are demonstrating precisely the mindset that is behind the reason that only one person is standing for each of the four positions.*
Kieren, you *are* getting embrolied in pointless name calling.
Funny that you suddenly seem so interested in At-Large issues when it comes to our internals. We've been active in promoting end-user sensibilities in WHOIS, gTLD, trademark, internationalization and other issues. I've personally been trying -- practically begging, since before Prague -- to get you to even LOOK at the R3 white paper At-Large has produced, an broadly-crafted attempt to make ICANN more representative of (and accountable to) the world at large. You've been WAY too busy for that. But not too busy to gawk at an unfortunate personal issue, and pass judgement on a consensus process that seems to work for most. Like most decision-making systems, it's imperfect. But it does result in NARALO members' initiating more than its share of ALAC policy initiatives, and still being the one of the only regions with a formal acceptance of participants who aren't part of an ALS.
And yet... Rather than focus on the substance of what we're actually trying to say -- which you have completely ignored to date -- you seek to dwell on the "what gives you the right to say it?" approach.
Sorry there wasn't any tabloid fodder for you on Monday (the first NARALO call you've attended ... ever?). No meltdown. Not even raised voices. Just talk about policy, planning for the Toronto meeting, and ensuring the everyone who had something to say on our internal issues was heard, Smoothly run and ended on time. But judging from your takeaway comments, Plan B appears to be focusing on why At-Large doesn't function more like Amway.
*So here are some questions:*
Really? REALLY? Are you really asking volunteers to provide the research that you will then turn around and sell to others? And then complain that we don't have enough time for <insert your pet issue here>?
If your questions are intended to discover holes in ICANN's At-Large outreach strategies, you'll have an easy time of it once you do the research. If your intentions are indeed constructive, you're welcome to join us in advocating At-Large growth through anywhere near the kind of resources that ICANN expends to grow its pool of registrars and TLDs. But the tone just appears as building a case for diverting our limited volunteer resources away from understanding and shaping the ICANN labyrinth, and towards recruitment. No thanks.
My ALS (and a number of others) was discovered and brought in by Jacob Malthouse, an ICANN staffer whose job it was to go out and engage members of the public who'd never heard of ICANN -- let alone cared about it -- and convince them to get them involved. Jacob's job was difficult; too bad you can't ask him about it because his position no longer exists, so it's no surprise the job isn't being done anymore. NARALO has made proposals to duplicate this task using volunteers instead of staff, but our request to get even basic expenses covered for this project has been turned down for two (or it it three?) years in a row.
*These are basic questions, basic steps for a grassroots organization.
And they all cost $0.*
How sad that you consider volunteer time to be worthless. Mine isn't.
- Evan ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
Kieren, I think your critique of what needs to be done is correct but there is difference between saying "this must be done by you" and "this must be done and I will do this part of it" among a group of volunteers. We're all aware of the weak volume of participation, and this can be fixed. What can't be denied is the quality of participation. The expertise and dedication among this group is remarkable. Before joining At-Large I was running my volunteer effort with success in specific areas. But since working with At-Large that success has improved and I've had the honor of helping others within the group with various efforts. We've made positive policy changes and gotten the attention of the board, staff and "others." Registrars regularly lurk on this thread along with anonymous (NON)At-Large support ICANN staff. That's pretty shocking and wouldn't happen if we were not having an impact. No one inside the inner circle would care what we said otherwise. If you can use your far-reaching voice to highlight the success of this group it would help get new interest and support for existing initiatives. Interview some members and document what they do, so then readers will see how their Internet problems could also be addressed. -Garth -------------------------------------------------- From: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 9:40 AM To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
Well I think you've both just answered the question as to why there are so few people engaged in NARALO.
Kieren
[from mobile device]
On Jul 20, 2012, at 3:50 AM, "Thompson, Darlene" <DThompson1@GOV.NU.CA> wrote:
+1
Very well said.
D
Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] on behalf of Evan Leibovitch [evan@telly.org] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 2:20 AM To: Kieren McCarthy Cc: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
On 19 July 2012 12:39, Kieren McCarthy <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> wrote:
*At the risk at getting embroiled in pointless name-calling, John I think
you are demonstrating precisely the mindset that is behind the reason that only one person is standing for each of the four positions.*
Kieren, you *are* getting embrolied in pointless name calling.
Funny that you suddenly seem so interested in At-Large issues when it comes to our internals. We've been active in promoting end-user sensibilities in WHOIS, gTLD, trademark, internationalization and other issues. I've personally been trying -- practically begging, since before Prague -- to get you to even LOOK at the R3 white paper At-Large has produced, an broadly-crafted attempt to make ICANN more representative of (and accountable to) the world at large. You've been WAY too busy for that. But not too busy to gawk at an unfortunate personal issue, and pass judgement on a consensus process that seems to work for most. Like most decision-making systems, it's imperfect. But it does result in NARALO members' initiating more than its share of ALAC policy initiatives, and still being the one of the only regions with a formal acceptance of participants who aren't part of an ALS.
And yet... Rather than focus on the substance of what we're actually trying to say -- which you have completely ignored to date -- you seek to dwell on the "what gives you the right to say it?" approach.
Sorry there wasn't any tabloid fodder for you on Monday (the first NARALO call you've attended ... ever?). No meltdown. Not even raised voices. Just talk about policy, planning for the Toronto meeting, and ensuring the everyone who had something to say on our internal issues was heard, Smoothly run and ended on time. But judging from your takeaway comments, Plan B appears to be focusing on why At-Large doesn't function more like Amway.
*So here are some questions:*
Really? REALLY? Are you really asking volunteers to provide the research that you will then turn around and sell to others? And then complain that we don't have enough time for <insert your pet issue here>?
If your questions are intended to discover holes in ICANN's At-Large outreach strategies, you'll have an easy time of it once you do the research. If your intentions are indeed constructive, you're welcome to join us in advocating At-Large growth through anywhere near the kind of resources that ICANN expends to grow its pool of registrars and TLDs. But the tone just appears as building a case for diverting our limited volunteer resources away from understanding and shaping the ICANN labyrinth, and towards recruitment. No thanks.
My ALS (and a number of others) was discovered and brought in by Jacob Malthouse, an ICANN staffer whose job it was to go out and engage members of the public who'd never heard of ICANN -- let alone cared about it -- and convince them to get them involved. Jacob's job was difficult; too bad you can't ask him about it because his position no longer exists, so it's no surprise the job isn't being done anymore. NARALO has made proposals to duplicate this task using volunteers instead of staff, but our request to get even basic expenses covered for this project has been turned down for two (or it it three?) years in a row.
*These are basic questions, basic steps for a grassroots organization.
And they all cost $0.*
How sad that you consider volunteer time to be worthless. Mine isn't.
- Evan ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
Hi Garth, all So here's the thing. If elected to a key post in a grassroots organization, being asked questions like: how many members do you have, how many subscribers, what level of engagement -- should be an opportunity to demonstrate effectiveness (especially when seeking re-election) and the answers should be immediately accessible. If asked about a Facebook page, or a Twitter account, or a report of the recent meeting which is the organization's entire reason for existing, then the answers should already be known and easily provided, perhaps with a certain amount of pride. This basic level of commitment by elected representatives is the foundation on which other things can be built. If there is such a foundation and if questions from members are seen as a positive and useful form of engagement, then you will find that not only I but a lot of other people would be willing to help out, to do work (without insisting on being paid for it), and to promote the organization. Kieren On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 7:48 AM, Garth Bruen at Knujon.com < gbruen@knujon.com> wrote:
Kieren, I think your critique of what needs to be done is correct but there is difference between saying "this must be done by you" and "this must be done and I will do this part of it" among a group of volunteers.
We're all aware of the weak volume of participation, and this can be fixed.
What can't be denied is the quality of participation. The expertise and dedication among this group is remarkable. Before joining At-Large I was running my volunteer effort with success in specific areas. But since working with At-Large that success has improved and I've had the honor of helping others within the group with various efforts.
We've made positive policy changes and gotten the attention of the board, staff and "others." Registrars regularly lurk on this thread along with anonymous (NON)At-Large support ICANN staff. That's pretty shocking and wouldn't happen if we were not having an impact. No one inside the inner circle would care what we said otherwise.
If you can use your far-reaching voice to highlight the success of this group it would help get new interest and support for existing initiatives. Interview some members and document what they do, so then readers will see how their Internet problems could also be addressed.
-Garth
------------------------------**-------------------- From: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 9:40 AM To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.**icann.org<na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
Well I think you've both just answered the question as to why there are
so few people engaged in NARALO.
Kieren
[from mobile device]
On Jul 20, 2012, at 3:50 AM, "Thompson, Darlene" <DThompson1@GOV.NU.CA> wrote:
+1
Very well said.
D
Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ______________________________**__________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-**lists.icann.org<na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org>[ na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-**lists.icann.org<na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org>] on behalf of Evan Leibovitch [evan@telly.org] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 2:20 AM To: Kieren McCarthy Cc: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
On 19 July 2012 12:39, Kieren McCarthy <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> wrote:
*At the risk at getting embroiled in pointless name-calling, John I think
you are demonstrating precisely the mindset that is behind the reason that only one person is standing for each of the four positions.*
Kieren, you *are* getting embrolied in pointless name calling.
Funny that you suddenly seem so interested in At-Large issues when it comes to our internals. We've been active in promoting end-user sensibilities in WHOIS, gTLD, trademark, internationalization and other issues. I've personally been trying -- practically begging, since before Prague -- to get you to even LOOK at the R3 white paper At-Large has produced, an broadly-crafted attempt to make ICANN more representative of (and accountable to) the world at large. You've been WAY too busy for that. But not too busy to gawk at an unfortunate personal issue, and pass judgement on a consensus process that seems to work for most. Like most decision-making systems, it's imperfect. But it does result in NARALO members' initiating more than its share of ALAC policy initiatives, and still being the one of the only regions with a formal acceptance of participants who aren't part of an ALS.
And yet... Rather than focus on the substance of what we're actually trying to say -- which you have completely ignored to date -- you seek to dwell on the "what gives you the right to say it?" approach.
Sorry there wasn't any tabloid fodder for you on Monday (the first NARALO call you've attended ... ever?). No meltdown. Not even raised voices. Just talk about policy, planning for the Toronto meeting, and ensuring the everyone who had something to say on our internal issues was heard, Smoothly run and ended on time. But judging from your takeaway comments, Plan B appears to be focusing on why At-Large doesn't function more like Amway.
*So here are some questions:*
Really? REALLY? Are you really asking volunteers to provide the research that you will then turn around and sell to others? And then complain that we don't have enough time for <insert your pet issue here>?
If your questions are intended to discover holes in ICANN's At-Large outreach strategies, you'll have an easy time of it once you do the research. If your intentions are indeed constructive, you're welcome to join us in advocating At-Large growth through anywhere near the kind of resources that ICANN expends to grow its pool of registrars and TLDs. But the tone just appears as building a case for diverting our limited volunteer resources away from understanding and shaping the ICANN labyrinth, and towards recruitment. No thanks.
My ALS (and a number of others) was discovered and brought in by Jacob Malthouse, an ICANN staffer whose job it was to go out and engage members of the public who'd never heard of ICANN -- let alone cared about it -- and convince them to get them involved. Jacob's job was difficult; too bad you can't ask him about it because his position no longer exists, so it's no surprise the job isn't being done anymore. NARALO has made proposals to duplicate this task using volunteers instead of staff, but our request to get even basic expenses covered for this project has been turned down for two (or it it three?) years in a row.
*These are basic questions, basic steps for a grassroots organization.
And they all cost $0.*
How sad that you consider volunteer time to be worthless. Mine isn't.
- Evan ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.**icann.org<NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.**org/mailman/listinfo/na-**discuss<https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss>
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.**icann.org <NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.**org/mailman/listinfo/na-**discuss<https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss>
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but I believe you've just said that you'll be happy to participate in an organization where other people have already done the recruiting work. R's, John On Fri, 20 Jul 2012, Kieren McCarthy wrote:
Hi Garth, all
So here's the thing. If elected to a key post in a grassroots organization, being asked questions like: how many members do you have, how many subscribers, what level of engagement -- should be an opportunity to demonstrate effectiveness (especially when seeking re-election) and the answers should be immediately accessible.
If asked about a Facebook page, or a Twitter account, or a report of the recent meeting which is the organization's entire reason for existing, then the answers should already be known and easily provided, perhaps with a certain amount of pride.
This basic level of commitment by elected representatives is the foundation on which other things can be built. If there is such a foundation and if questions from members are seen as a positive and useful form of engagement, then you will find that not only I but a lot of other people would be willing to help out, to do work (without insisting on being paid for it), and to promote the organization.
Yes, we need more of a front-facing presence but before we can publicize and recruit we need to have purpose and define meaning. Which is why I ask that the focus be placed on documenting positive achievements first. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 11:36 AM To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss]Voting None of the Above Re: …
Hi Garth, all
So here's the thing. If elected to a key post in a grassroots organization, being asked questions like: how many members do you have, how many subscribers, what level of engagement -- should be an opportunity to demonstrate effectiveness (especially when seeking re-election) and the answers should be immediately accessible.
If asked about a Facebook page, or a Twitter account, or a report of the recent meeting which is the organization's entire reason for existing, then the answers should already be known and easily provided, perhaps with a certain amount of pride.
This basic level of commitment by elected representatives is the foundation on which other things can be built. If there is such a foundation and if questions from members are seen as a positive and useful form of engagement, then you will find that not only I but a lot of other people would be willing to help out, to do work (without insisting on being paid for it), and to promote the organization.
Kieren
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 7:48 AM, Garth Bruen at Knujon.com < gbruen@knujon.com> wrote:
Kieren, I think your critique of what needs to be done is correct but there is difference between saying "this must be done by you" and "this must be done and I will do this part of it" among a group of volunteers.
We're all aware of the weak volume of participation, and this can be fixed.
What can't be denied is the quality of participation. The expertise and dedication among this group is remarkable. Before joining At-Large I was running my volunteer effort with success in specific areas. But since working with At-Large that success has improved and I've had the honor of helping others within the group with various efforts.
We've made positive policy changes and gotten the attention of the board, staff and "others." Registrars regularly lurk on this thread along with anonymous (NON)At-Large support ICANN staff. That's pretty shocking and wouldn't happen if we were not having an impact. No one inside the inner circle would care what we said otherwise.
If you can use your far-reaching voice to highlight the success of this group it would help get new interest and support for existing initiatives. Interview some members and document what they do, so then readers will see how their Internet problems could also be addressed.
-Garth
------------------------------**-------------------- From: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 9:40 AM To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.**icann.org<na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
Well I think you've both just answered the question as to why there are
so few people engaged in NARALO.
Kieren
[from mobile device]
On Jul 20, 2012, at 3:50 AM, "Thompson, Darlene" <DThompson1@GOV.NU.CA> wrote:
+1
Very well said.
D
Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ______________________________**__________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-**lists.icann.org<na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org>[ na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-**lists.icann.org<na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org>] on behalf of Evan Leibovitch [evan@telly.org] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 2:20 AM To: Kieren McCarthy Cc: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
On 19 July 2012 12:39, Kieren McCarthy <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> wrote:
*At the risk at getting embroiled in pointless name-calling, John I think
you are demonstrating precisely the mindset that is behind the reason that only one person is standing for each of the four positions.*
Kieren, you *are* getting embrolied in pointless name calling.
Funny that you suddenly seem so interested in At-Large issues when it comes to our internals. We've been active in promoting end-user sensibilities in WHOIS, gTLD, trademark, internationalization and other issues. I've personally been trying -- practically begging, since before Prague -- to get you to even LOOK at the R3 white paper At-Large has produced, an broadly-crafted attempt to make ICANN more representative of (and accountable to) the world at large. You've been WAY too busy for that. But not too busy to gawk at an unfortunate personal issue, and pass judgement on a consensus process that seems to work for most. Like most decision-making systems, it's imperfect. But it does result in NARALO members' initiating more than its share of ALAC policy initiatives, and still being the one of the only regions with a formal acceptance of participants who aren't part of an ALS.
And yet... Rather than focus on the substance of what we're actually trying to say -- which you have completely ignored to date -- you seek to dwell on the "what gives you the right to say it?" approach.
Sorry there wasn't any tabloid fodder for you on Monday (the first NARALO call you've attended ... ever?). No meltdown. Not even raised voices. Just talk about policy, planning for the Toronto meeting, and ensuring the everyone who had something to say on our internal issues was heard, Smoothly run and ended on time. But judging from your takeaway comments, Plan B appears to be focusing on why At-Large doesn't function more like Amway.
*So here are some questions:*
Really? REALLY? Are you really asking volunteers to provide the research that you will then turn around and sell to others? And then complain that we don't have enough time for <insert your pet issue here>?
If your questions are intended to discover holes in ICANN's At-Large outreach strategies, you'll have an easy time of it once you do the research. If your intentions are indeed constructive, you're welcome to join us in advocating At-Large growth through anywhere near the kind of resources that ICANN expends to grow its pool of registrars and TLDs. But the tone just appears as building a case for diverting our limited volunteer resources away from understanding and shaping the ICANN labyrinth, and towards recruitment. No thanks.
My ALS (and a number of others) was discovered and brought in by Jacob Malthouse, an ICANN staffer whose job it was to go out and engage members of the public who'd never heard of ICANN -- let alone cared about it -- and convince them to get them involved. Jacob's job was difficult; too bad you can't ask him about it because his position no longer exists, so it's no surprise the job isn't being done anymore. NARALO has made proposals to duplicate this task using volunteers instead of staff, but our request to get even basic expenses covered for this project has been turned down for two (or it it three?) years in a row.
*These are basic questions, basic steps for a grassroots organization.
And they all cost $0.*
How sad that you consider volunteer time to be worthless. Mine isn't.
- Evan ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.**icann.org<NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.**org/mailman/listinfo/na-**discuss<https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss>
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.**icann.org <NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> https://atlarge-lists.icann.**org/mailman/listinfo/na-**discuss<https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss>
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss
Visit the NARALO online at http://www.naralo.org ------
I think it may be worth recapping what has happened in the past week (which is why I perhaps mistakenly started trying to engage again with NARALO). * The (former) chair sent an aggressive email to a member who said he was going to stand against him in the chair election. It was sent to the mailing list by mistake. * The secretariat complained on the same mailing list that she was being bullied by the chair * Chair and secretariat then publicly exchanged insults and formally complained to ICANN's Ombudsman. * The chair resigned. * A member (myself) asked some basic questions about the organization's outreach work. They were met aggressively by another elected representative, and then backed up by the secretariat. * There are four positions up for election and only one person is standing for each. Recruitment for more people to stand appears to have been confined to the same mailing list on which all the unpleasantries of the past week have played out. Sorry to be provocative but which of these positive achievements would you like me to document first? My basic point is: Physician, heal thyself. Kieren On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 9:12 AM, Garth Bruen at Knujon.com < gbruen@knujon.com> wrote:
Yes, we need more of a front-facing presence but before we can publicize and recruit we need to have purpose and define meaning. Which is why I ask that the focus be placed on documenting positive achievements first.
------------------------------**-------------------- From: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 11:36 AM
To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.**icann.org<na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss]Voting None of the Above Re: …
Hi Garth, all
So here's the thing. If elected to a key post in a grassroots organization, being asked questions like: how many members do you have, how many subscribers, what level of engagement -- should be an opportunity to demonstrate effectiveness (especially when seeking re-election) and the answers should be immediately accessible.
If asked about a Facebook page, or a Twitter account, or a report of the recent meeting which is the organization's entire reason for existing, then the answers should already be known and easily provided, perhaps with a certain amount of pride.
This basic level of commitment by elected representatives is the foundation on which other things can be built. If there is such a foundation and if questions from members are seen as a positive and useful form of engagement, then you will find that not only I but a lot of other people would be willing to help out, to do work (without insisting on being paid for it), and to promote the organization.
Kieren
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 7:48 AM, Garth Bruen at Knujon.com < gbruen@knujon.com> wrote:
Kieren, I think your critique of what needs to be done is correct but
there is difference between saying "this must be done by you" and "this must be done and I will do this part of it" among a group of volunteers.
We're all aware of the weak volume of participation, and this can be fixed.
What can't be denied is the quality of participation. The expertise and dedication among this group is remarkable. Before joining At-Large I was running my volunteer effort with success in specific areas. But since working with At-Large that success has improved and I've had the honor of helping others within the group with various efforts.
We've made positive policy changes and gotten the attention of the board, staff and "others." Registrars regularly lurk on this thread along with anonymous (NON)At-Large support ICANN staff. That's pretty shocking and wouldn't happen if we were not having an impact. No one inside the inner circle would care what we said otherwise.
If you can use your far-reaching voice to highlight the success of this group it would help get new interest and support for existing initiatives. Interview some members and document what they do, so then readers will see how their Internet problems could also be addressed.
-Garth
------------------------------****--------------------
From: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 9:40 AM To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.**ic**ann.org<http://icann.org> <na-discuss@atlarge-**lists.icann.org<na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
Well I think you've both just answered the question as to why there are
so few people engaged in NARALO.
Kieren
[from mobile device]
On Jul 20, 2012, at 3:50 AM, "Thompson, Darlene" <DThompson1@GOV.NU.CA> wrote:
+1
Very well said.
D
Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ______________________________****__________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-**l**ists.icann.org<http://lists.icann.org> <na-discuss-**bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.**org<na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org>
[ na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-**l**ists.icann.org<http://lists.icann.org> <na-discuss-**bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.**org<na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> ]
on behalf of Evan Leibovitch [evan@telly.org] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 2:20 AM To: Kieren McCarthy Cc: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
On 19 July 2012 12:39, Kieren McCarthy <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> wrote:
*At the risk at getting embroiled in pointless name-calling, John I think
you are demonstrating precisely the mindset that is behind the reason
that only one person is standing for each of the four positions.*
Kieren, you *are* getting embrolied in pointless name calling.
Funny that you suddenly seem so interested in At-Large issues when it comes to our internals. We've been active in promoting end-user sensibilities in WHOIS, gTLD, trademark, internationalization and other issues. I've personally been trying -- practically begging, since before Prague -- to get you to even LOOK at the R3 white paper At-Large has produced, an broadly-crafted attempt to make ICANN more representative of (and accountable to) the world at large. You've been WAY too busy for that. But not too busy to gawk at an unfortunate personal issue, and pass judgement on a consensus process that seems to work for most. Like most decision-making systems, it's imperfect. But it does result in NARALO members' initiating more than its share of ALAC policy initiatives, and still being the one of the only regions with a formal acceptance of participants who aren't part of an ALS.
And yet... Rather than focus on the substance of what we're actually trying to say -- which you have completely ignored to date -- you seek to dwell on the "what gives you the right to say it?" approach.
Sorry there wasn't any tabloid fodder for you on Monday (the first NARALO call you've attended ... ever?). No meltdown. Not even raised voices. Just talk about policy, planning for the Toronto meeting, and ensuring the everyone who had something to say on our internal issues was heard, Smoothly run and ended on time. But judging from your takeaway comments, Plan B appears to be focusing on why At-Large doesn't function more like Amway.
*So here are some questions:*
Really? REALLY? Are you really asking volunteers to provide the research that you will then turn around and sell to others? And then complain that we don't have enough time for <insert your pet issue here>?
If your questions are intended to discover holes in ICANN's At-Large outreach strategies, you'll have an easy time of it once you do the research. If your intentions are indeed constructive, you're welcome to join us in advocating At-Large growth through anywhere near the kind of resources that ICANN expends to grow its pool of registrars and TLDs. But the tone just appears as building a case for diverting our limited volunteer resources away from understanding and shaping the ICANN labyrinth, and towards recruitment. No thanks.
My ALS (and a number of others) was discovered and brought in by Jacob Malthouse, an ICANN staffer whose job it was to go out and engage members of the public who'd never heard of ICANN -- let alone cared about it -- and convince them to get them involved. Jacob's job was difficult; too bad you can't ask him about it because his position no longer exists, so it's no surprise the job isn't being done anymore. NARALO has made proposals to duplicate this task using volunteers instead of staff, but our request to get even basic expenses covered for this project has been turned down for two (or it it three?) years in a row.
*These are basic questions, basic steps for a grassroots organization.
And they all cost $0.*
How sad that you consider volunteer time to be worthless. Mine isn't.
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<<My basic point is: Physician, heal thyself.>> So that begs the question, are you part of the patient's body? What can you do to help the healing? <<Sorry to be provocative but which of these positive achievements would you like me to document first?>> In sincere answer, I would encourage you to document what is obviously a problem within the organization when it comes to keeping it's disparate parts engaged and in peaceful dialogue. But what would be the agenda for such a posting? Who is the audience? Then, I would encourage you to look here: http://www.atlarge.icann.org/ at the "record" number of policy initiatives which ICANN ignores at its own peril. Review the RRR as Evan recommended. Give your assessment, add recommendations if you feel it needs improvement. Then, go through this list: http://www.atlarge.icann.org/applications?tid_1=164&tid_2=791 and start contacting them one by one to ask them what their assessment of the group is? If they're not participating, why? What are their expectations? What is their work? Let's get moving on something. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 12:35 PM To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss]Voting None of the Above Re: …
I think it may be worth recapping what has happened in the past week (which is why I perhaps mistakenly started trying to engage again with NARALO).
* The (former) chair sent an aggressive email to a member who said he was going to stand against him in the chair election. It was sent to the mailing list by mistake.
* The secretariat complained on the same mailing list that she was being bullied by the chair
* Chair and secretariat then publicly exchanged insults and formally complained to ICANN's Ombudsman.
* The chair resigned.
* A member (myself) asked some basic questions about the organization's outreach work. They were met aggressively by another elected representative, and then backed up by the secretariat.
* There are four positions up for election and only one person is standing for each. Recruitment for more people to stand appears to have been confined to the same mailing list on which all the unpleasantries of the past week have played out.
Sorry to be provocative but which of these positive achievements would you like me to document first?
My basic point is: Physician, heal thyself.
Kieren
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 9:12 AM, Garth Bruen at Knujon.com < gbruen@knujon.com> wrote:
Yes, we need more of a front-facing presence but before we can publicize and recruit we need to have purpose and define meaning. Which is why I ask that the focus be placed on documenting positive achievements first.
------------------------------**-------------------- From: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 11:36 AM
To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.**icann.org<na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss]Voting None of the Above Re: …
Hi Garth, all
So here's the thing. If elected to a key post in a grassroots organization, being asked questions like: how many members do you have, how many subscribers, what level of engagement -- should be an opportunity to demonstrate effectiveness (especially when seeking re-election) and the answers should be immediately accessible.
If asked about a Facebook page, or a Twitter account, or a report of the recent meeting which is the organization's entire reason for existing, then the answers should already be known and easily provided, perhaps with a certain amount of pride.
This basic level of commitment by elected representatives is the foundation on which other things can be built. If there is such a foundation and if questions from members are seen as a positive and useful form of engagement, then you will find that not only I but a lot of other people would be willing to help out, to do work (without insisting on being paid for it), and to promote the organization.
Kieren
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 7:48 AM, Garth Bruen at Knujon.com < gbruen@knujon.com> wrote:
Kieren, I think your critique of what needs to be done is correct but
there is difference between saying "this must be done by you" and "this must be done and I will do this part of it" among a group of volunteers.
We're all aware of the weak volume of participation, and this can be fixed.
What can't be denied is the quality of participation. The expertise and dedication among this group is remarkable. Before joining At-Large I was running my volunteer effort with success in specific areas. But since working with At-Large that success has improved and I've had the honor of helping others within the group with various efforts.
We've made positive policy changes and gotten the attention of the board, staff and "others." Registrars regularly lurk on this thread along with anonymous (NON)At-Large support ICANN staff. That's pretty shocking and wouldn't happen if we were not having an impact. No one inside the inner circle would care what we said otherwise.
If you can use your far-reaching voice to highlight the success of this group it would help get new interest and support for existing initiatives. Interview some members and document what they do, so then readers will see how their Internet problems could also be addressed.
-Garth
------------------------------****--------------------
From: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 9:40 AM To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.**ic**ann.org<http://icann.org> <na-discuss@atlarge-**lists.icann.org<na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
Well I think you've both just answered the question as to why there are
so few people engaged in NARALO.
Kieren
[from mobile device]
On Jul 20, 2012, at 3:50 AM, "Thompson, Darlene" <DThompson1@GOV.NU.CA> wrote:
+1
Very well said.
D
Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ______________________________****__________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-**l**ists.icann.org<http://lists.icann.org> <na-discuss-**bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.**org<na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> >[ na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-**l**ists.icann.org<http://lists.icann.org> <na-discuss-**bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.**org<na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> >]
on behalf of Evan Leibovitch [evan@telly.org] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 2:20 AM To: Kieren McCarthy Cc: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
On 19 July 2012 12:39, Kieren McCarthy <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> wrote:
*At the risk at getting embroiled in pointless name-calling, John I think
you are demonstrating precisely the mindset that is behind the reason > that > only one person is standing for each of the four positions.* > >
Kieren, you *are* getting embrolied in pointless name calling.
Funny that you suddenly seem so interested in At-Large issues when it comes to our internals. We've been active in promoting end-user sensibilities in WHOIS, gTLD, trademark, internationalization and other issues. I've personally been trying -- practically begging, since before Prague -- to get you to even LOOK at the R3 white paper At-Large has produced, an broadly-crafted attempt to make ICANN more representative of (and accountable to) the world at large. You've been WAY too busy for that. But not too busy to gawk at an unfortunate personal issue, and pass judgement on a consensus process that seems to work for most. Like most decision-making systems, it's imperfect. But it does result in NARALO members' initiating more than its share of ALAC policy initiatives, and still being the one of the only regions with a formal acceptance of participants who aren't part of an ALS.
And yet... Rather than focus on the substance of what we're actually trying to say -- which you have completely ignored to date -- you seek to dwell on the "what gives you the right to say it?" approach.
Sorry there wasn't any tabloid fodder for you on Monday (the first NARALO call you've attended ... ever?). No meltdown. Not even raised voices. Just talk about policy, planning for the Toronto meeting, and ensuring the everyone who had something to say on our internal issues was heard, Smoothly run and ended on time. But judging from your takeaway comments, Plan B appears to be focusing on why At-Large doesn't function more like Amway.
*So here are some questions:*
Really? REALLY? Are you really asking volunteers to provide the research that you will then turn around and sell to others? And then complain that we don't have enough time for <insert your pet issue here>?
If your questions are intended to discover holes in ICANN's At-Large outreach strategies, you'll have an easy time of it once you do the research. If your intentions are indeed constructive, you're welcome to join us in advocating At-Large growth through anywhere near the kind of resources that ICANN expends to grow its pool of registrars and TLDs. But the tone just appears as building a case for diverting our limited volunteer resources away from understanding and shaping the ICANN labyrinth, and towards recruitment. No thanks.
My ALS (and a number of others) was discovered and brought in by Jacob Malthouse, an ICANN staffer whose job it was to go out and engage members of the public who'd never heard of ICANN -- let alone cared about it -- and convince them to get them involved. Jacob's job was difficult; too bad you can't ask him about it because his position no longer exists, so it's no surprise the job isn't being done anymore. NARALO has made proposals to duplicate this task using volunteers instead of staff, but our request to get even basic expenses covered for this project has been turned down for two (or it it three?) years in a row.
*These are basic questions, basic steps for a grassroots organization.
And they all cost $0.* > >
How sad that you consider volunteer time to be worthless. Mine isn't.
- Evan ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.**ica**nn.org <http://icann.org><; NA-Discuss@atlarge-**lists.icann.org<NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> > https://atlarge-lists.icann.****org/mailman/listinfo/na-****discuss<; https://atlarge-lists.**icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-**discuss<https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/na-discuss> >
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I requested discussions of the various incidents be dropped from public discussion, but since one involves me I will clear the air. <<> * The (former) chair sent an aggressive email to a member who said he was
going to stand against him in the chair election. It was sent to the mailing list by mistake.>>
I believe it was a mistake, I was not offended or intimidated, and the chair apologized. There is no need to debate it further or include it in other arguments as I have made no complaint or protest over it. -------------------------------------------------- From: "Garth Bruen at Knujon.com" <gbruen@knujon.com> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 2:54 PM To: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com>; "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss]Voting None of the Above Re: …
Keiren, I think that you have everything pretty much right but I think from what I've seen on the list is that rather than complaining for you to chip in - which I believe you are doing. I would like to hear from the group as to what people might want you to document first but I think that Garth gave one very good suggestion. D I would like to hear other's opinions on Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] on behalf of Kieren McCarthy [kierenmccarthy@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 12:35 PM To: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: … I think it may be worth recapping what has happened in the past week (which is why I perhaps mistakenly started trying to engage again with NARALO). * The (former) chair sent an aggressive email to a member who said he was going to stand against him in the chair election. It was sent to the mailing list by mistake. * The secretariat complained on the same mailing list that she was being bullied by the chair * Chair and secretariat then publicly exchanged insults and formally complained to ICANN's Ombudsman. * The chair resigned. * A member (myself) asked some basic questions about the organization's outreach work. They were met aggressively by another elected representative, and then backed up by the secretariat. * There are four positions up for election and only one person is standing for each. Recruitment for more people to stand appears to have been confined to the same mailing list on which all the unpleasantries of the past week have played out. Sorry to be provocative but which of these positive achievements would you like me to document first? My basic point is: Physician, heal thyself. Kieren On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 9:12 AM, Garth Bruen at Knujon.com < gbruen@knujon.com> wrote:
Yes, we need more of a front-facing presence but before we can publicize and recruit we need to have purpose and define meaning. Which is why I ask that the focus be placed on documenting positive achievements first.
------------------------------**-------------------- From: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 11:36 AM
To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.**icann.org<na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss]Voting None of the Above Re: …
Hi Garth, all
So here's the thing. If elected to a key post in a grassroots organization, being asked questions like: how many members do you have, how many subscribers, what level of engagement -- should be an opportunity to demonstrate effectiveness (especially when seeking re-election) and the answers should be immediately accessible.
If asked about a Facebook page, or a Twitter account, or a report of the recent meeting which is the organization's entire reason for existing, then the answers should already be known and easily provided, perhaps with a certain amount of pride.
This basic level of commitment by elected representatives is the foundation on which other things can be built. If there is such a foundation and if questions from members are seen as a positive and useful form of engagement, then you will find that not only I but a lot of other people would be willing to help out, to do work (without insisting on being paid for it), and to promote the organization.
Kieren
On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 7:48 AM, Garth Bruen at Knujon.com < gbruen@knujon.com> wrote:
Kieren, I think your critique of what needs to be done is correct but
there is difference between saying "this must be done by you" and "this must be done and I will do this part of it" among a group of volunteers.
We're all aware of the weak volume of participation, and this can be fixed.
What can't be denied is the quality of participation. The expertise and dedication among this group is remarkable. Before joining At-Large I was running my volunteer effort with success in specific areas. But since working with At-Large that success has improved and I've had the honor of helping others within the group with various efforts.
We've made positive policy changes and gotten the attention of the board, staff and "others." Registrars regularly lurk on this thread along with anonymous (NON)At-Large support ICANN staff. That's pretty shocking and wouldn't happen if we were not having an impact. No one inside the inner circle would care what we said otherwise.
If you can use your far-reaching voice to highlight the success of this group it would help get new interest and support for existing initiatives. Interview some members and document what they do, so then readers will see how their Internet problems could also be addressed.
-Garth
------------------------------****--------------------
From: "Kieren McCarthy" <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 9:40 AM To: "NA-Discuss Discuss" <na-discuss@atlarge-lists.**ic**ann.org<http://icann.org> <na-discuss@atlarge-**lists.icann.org<na-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org>
Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
Well I think you've both just answered the question as to why there are
so few people engaged in NARALO.
Kieren
[from mobile device]
On Jul 20, 2012, at 3:50 AM, "Thompson, Darlene" <DThompson1@GOV.NU.CA> wrote:
+1
Very well said.
D
Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ______________________________****__________ From: na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-**l**ists.icann.org<http://lists.icann.org> <na-discuss-**bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.**org<na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org>
[ na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-**l**ists.icann.org<http://lists.icann.org> <na-discuss-**bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.**org<na-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org> ]
on behalf of Evan Leibovitch [evan@telly.org] Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 2:20 AM To: Kieren McCarthy Cc: NA-Discuss Discuss Subject: Re: [NA-Discuss] Voting None of the Above Re: …
On 19 July 2012 12:39, Kieren McCarthy <kierenmccarthy@gmail.com> wrote:
*At the risk at getting embroiled in pointless name-calling, John I think
you are demonstrating precisely the mindset that is behind the reason
that only one person is standing for each of the four positions.*
Kieren, you *are* getting embrolied in pointless name calling.
Funny that you suddenly seem so interested in At-Large issues when it comes to our internals. We've been active in promoting end-user sensibilities in WHOIS, gTLD, trademark, internationalization and other issues. I've personally been trying -- practically begging, since before Prague -- to get you to even LOOK at the R3 white paper At-Large has produced, an broadly-crafted attempt to make ICANN more representative of (and accountable to) the world at large. You've been WAY too busy for that. But not too busy to gawk at an unfortunate personal issue, and pass judgement on a consensus process that seems to work for most. Like most decision-making systems, it's imperfect. But it does result in NARALO members' initiating more than its share of ALAC policy initiatives, and still being the one of the only regions with a formal acceptance of participants who aren't part of an ALS.
And yet... Rather than focus on the substance of what we're actually trying to say -- which you have completely ignored to date -- you seek to dwell on the "what gives you the right to say it?" approach.
Sorry there wasn't any tabloid fodder for you on Monday (the first NARALO call you've attended ... ever?). No meltdown. Not even raised voices. Just talk about policy, planning for the Toronto meeting, and ensuring the everyone who had something to say on our internal issues was heard, Smoothly run and ended on time. But judging from your takeaway comments, Plan B appears to be focusing on why At-Large doesn't function more like Amway.
*So here are some questions:*
Really? REALLY? Are you really asking volunteers to provide the research that you will then turn around and sell to others? And then complain that we don't have enough time for <insert your pet issue here>?
If your questions are intended to discover holes in ICANN's At-Large outreach strategies, you'll have an easy time of it once you do the research. If your intentions are indeed constructive, you're welcome to join us in advocating At-Large growth through anywhere near the kind of resources that ICANN expends to grow its pool of registrars and TLDs. But the tone just appears as building a case for diverting our limited volunteer resources away from understanding and shaping the ICANN labyrinth, and towards recruitment. No thanks.
My ALS (and a number of others) was discovered and brought in by Jacob Malthouse, an ICANN staffer whose job it was to go out and engage members of the public who'd never heard of ICANN -- let alone cared about it -- and convince them to get them involved. Jacob's job was difficult; too bad you can't ask him about it because his position no longer exists, so it's no surprise the job isn't being done anymore. NARALO has made proposals to duplicate this task using volunteers instead of staff, but our request to get even basic expenses covered for this project has been turned down for two (or it it three?) years in a row.
*These are basic questions, basic steps for a grassroots organization.
And they all cost $0.*
How sad that you consider volunteer time to be worthless. Mine isn't.
- Evan ------ NA-Discuss mailing list NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.**ica**nn.org <http://icann.org><; NA-Discuss@atlarge-**lists.icann.org<NA-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org>
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Dear Kieren, as NARALO is currently going through elections and our staff is otherwise engaged and therefore has little bandwidth to devote to providing you with answers at the moment, let me oblige: On 19/07/2012 17:39, Kieren McCarthy wrote :
At the risk at getting embroiled in pointless name-calling, John I think you are demonstrating precisely the mindset that is behind the reason that only one person is standing for each of the four positions.
So here are some questions:
* How many NARALO members are there?
How many people read dot-nxt? Impossible to know. Our ALSes do not provide an exact detail of how many members they have.
* How many ALSes in North America are there?
21 by my count. This is shown on: https://community.icann.org/x/kQCq which is publicly available.
* How many individuals are subscribed to this mailing list?
100 email addresses in total. Some people are subscribed more than once. Only staff and myself have access to this data so no need to blame NARALO for not knowing.
* What is the subscribe/unsubscribe rate of the list each month for the past six months?
There has been very little subscribe/unsubscribe traffic on the NARALO list so it is fair to say that the list has a steady membership.
* How many individuals engage on this mailing list?
There is a link to the list archives at the bottom of my message and I'll let you do the statistics on this.
* Is there an NARALO Facebook page? * Is there an NARALO Twitter presence?
With no staff support for these things at NARALO level, this would be up to NARALO members to set-up.
* Is there a NARALO newsletter? How many are subscribed to it? * Is there a NARALO summary of events for members for ICANN Prague?
These are basic questions, basic steps for a grassroots organization. And they all cost $0.
They cost volunteer time. These are people who have a day job, families and more volunteer work to perform in the ALS that they are a member of -- because ALSes are organizations which perform work outside of ICANN and ICANN activities are only a small subset of what those organizations do. Do you wish to edit a NARALO newsletter? You would be welcome to do so! As for a NARALO summary of events for members for ICANN Prague, I have submitted a report with the great help from Staff which can be downloaded from: http://prague44.icann.org/meetings/prague2012/presentation-alac-chair-29jun1... This provides a summary of our activities during the Prague meeting. Why duplicate work when our resources are already stretched? Kieren, this community does a heck of a lot more work than it is ever credited for. The problem is that if it takes time reporting on what it does, it hasn't got enough time to do the actual work. We have dozens of parallel threads going on, both on policy and on procedure. All of them are super important. But our staff and volunteer resources are stretched. The ALAC Web site is due for renewal/replacement -- that's in the works. A communications policy is being worked on with the ICANN comms dept. A technology taskforce is working on making better use of technology to ease the work on our members. An outreach WG is looking at outreach. Then we have capacity building and inreach. The list is endless, and none of us are polymaths, able to do everything. So we often do things which are not our job spec. and it takes time. None of us are public communications experts like you, so if you think you can do a better job and help this community in building the user input at ICANN, then please do so. If on the other hand you are just going to criticise destructively, then this community is wasting valuable time reading your messages instead of doing the work they need to do. I am sorry to be so blunt, but the tone of your emails is negative thus you won't make any friends here if you pursue this thread in such an unfair way. You are targeting hard working volunteers and that's not fair. Warmest regards, Olivier
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-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
Thanks for this Olivier, To be clear though, the aim of asking the questions was an effort to make people think about what they were actually doing with regard to outreach. The response was a rather aggressive one, as you have seen. And it still didn't produce any answers. Which in itself rather answers the question: not only is far too little being done but no one is building metrics around it either, and no one currently feels that it is a matter of accountability. I'm not sure that shooting the messenger is a very effective way of dealing with this. But the answer is now in plain sight for anyone that may wish to actually deal with it. I thank you for the information all the same. To be honest, I have no use for it, but I am hoping the NARALO does. Kieren On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 2:57 PM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com>wrote:
Dear Kieren,
as NARALO is currently going through elections and our staff is otherwise engaged and therefore has little bandwidth to devote to providing you with answers at the moment, let me oblige:
On 19/07/2012 17:39, Kieren McCarthy wrote :
At the risk at getting embroiled in pointless name-calling, John I think you are demonstrating precisely the mindset that is behind the reason that only one person is standing for each of the four positions.
So here are some questions:
* How many NARALO members are there?
How many people read dot-nxt? Impossible to know. Our ALSes do not provide an exact detail of how many members they have.
* How many ALSes in North America are there?
21 by my count. This is shown on: https://community.icann.org/x/kQCq which is publicly available.
* How many individuals are subscribed to this mailing list?
100 email addresses in total. Some people are subscribed more than once. Only staff and myself have access to this data so no need to blame NARALO for not knowing.
* What is the subscribe/unsubscribe rate of the list each month for the past six months?
There has been very little subscribe/unsubscribe traffic on the NARALO list so it is fair to say that the list has a steady membership.
* How many individuals engage on this mailing list?
There is a link to the list archives at the bottom of my message and I'll let you do the statistics on this.
* Is there an NARALO Facebook page? * Is there an NARALO Twitter presence?
With no staff support for these things at NARALO level, this would be up to NARALO members to set-up.
* Is there a NARALO newsletter? How many are subscribed to it? * Is there a NARALO summary of events for members for ICANN Prague?
These are basic questions, basic steps for a grassroots organization. And they all cost $0.
They cost volunteer time. These are people who have a day job, families and more volunteer work to perform in the ALS that they are a member of -- because ALSes are organizations which perform work outside of ICANN and ICANN activities are only a small subset of what those organizations do. Do you wish to edit a NARALO newsletter? You would be welcome to do so!
As for a NARALO summary of events for members for ICANN Prague, I have submitted a report with the great help from Staff which can be downloaded from:
http://prague44.icann.org/meetings/prague2012/presentation-alac-chair-29jun1...
This provides a summary of our activities during the Prague meeting. Why duplicate work when our resources are already stretched?
Kieren, this community does a heck of a lot more work than it is ever credited for.
The problem is that if it takes time reporting on what it does, it hasn't got enough time to do the actual work. We have dozens of parallel threads going on, both on policy and on procedure. All of them are super important. But our staff and volunteer resources are stretched. The ALAC Web site is due for renewal/replacement -- that's in the works. A communications policy is being worked on with the ICANN comms dept. A technology taskforce is working on making better use of technology to ease the work on our members. An outreach WG is looking at outreach. Then we have capacity building and inreach. The list is endless, and none of us are polymaths, able to do everything. So we often do things which are not our job spec. and it takes time. None of us are public communications experts like you, so if you think you can do a better job and help this community in building the user input at ICANN, then please do so. If on the other hand you are just going to criticise destructively, then this community is wasting valuable time reading your messages instead of doing the work they need to do.
I am sorry to be so blunt, but the tone of your emails is negative thus you won't make any friends here if you pursue this thread in such an unfair way. You are targeting hard working volunteers and that's not fair.
Warmest regards,
Olivier
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-- Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
participants (10)
-
Avri Doria -
Bob Bruen -
Eduardo Diaz -
Evan Leibovitch -
Garth Bruen at Knujon.com -
John R. Levine -
Joly MacFie -
Kieren McCarthy -
Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond -
Thompson, Darlene