New subject: Planning our next steps

Nov. 13, 2010

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I would be very interested in having a presentation on previous Whois
Reviews, their findings, outcomes, learning points etc.,

Sharon

Sharon Lemon OBE. Deputy Director e-Crime, Crime Techniques, Prevention
and Alerts | Serious Organised Crime Agency | PO BOX 8000 | London |
SE11 5EN | Tel: +44 (0)20 7238 8583 | Mobile: +44 (0)7768 290902 |
Email: sharon.lemon@soca.x.gsi.gov.uk 

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-----Original Message-----
From: rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org]
On Behalf Of Smith, Bill
Sent: 12 November 2010 19:32
To: Kim G. von Arx
Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org
Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Planning our next steps

Kim,

I agree we'll have to make those "hard decisions".

As someone who has already done a WHOIS review, what are the limitations
of a forward-looking policy that considers two broad classes of "users";
those that want to restrict access, and those that want to have "open"
access. To my mind, this seems a simple and elegant framework, at least
for discussion purposes.

Regards,

Bill
...
-----Original Message-----
From: Kim G. von Arx [mailto:kim@vonarx.ca]
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 10:20 AM
To: Smith, Bill
Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org
Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Planning our next steps
Hi Bill:
I agree that grouping various interests/people etc is artificial, but 
I submit that that is always the case and is a general problem of any 
policy review and development.  In light of that, we will have to 
eventually make those distinctions and categorization otherwise it 
will be impossible to review the effectiveness of the WHOIS.  I truly 
agree with you that there are a myriad of different and legitimate 
interests which, in theory, would call for a broad and global public 
consultation to ascertain and determine as many views as possible. 
However, this raises three major problems:
1. Knowledge of the issues at discussion - this requires a fairly 
significant amount of education.  When we did the CIRA WHOIS review 
and development we had a total of 3 public consultations with 
extensive background information to explain the WHOIS issues.  Also, 
we had various public fora across the country to discuss and collect 
further information from our stakeholders.
2. Lack of interest - with the lack of knowledge of the issues, there 
comes a fairly large amount of disinterest.  We always related it to 
electricity.  We are all happy when we plug in a device in to the 
outlet and all works and expect it to work, but the majority of us 
have no idea and, indeed, no interest to learn more about the 
policies, regulatory framework, etc. that affect the provision of 
those services.
3. The global canvass - a public consultation would require a huge 
amount of time, effort, and money to reach as many people as possible.
...
Just looking at the new TLD outreach, I submit that, despite the 
enormous and laudable attempts by ICANN to inform the global community
...
only a very very small fraction of the Internet community have any 
understanding of the implications, issues, problems, and benefits of 
this new TLD initiative.
Therefore, in short, we will have to make the hard decisions of who 
our stakeholders are and how we define/categorize each.
Kim
On 12 Nov 2010, at 12:57, Smith, Bill wrote:
...
Hi Kim,
I agree that these groups have legitimate interests. The grouping 
you
have proposed is easily understood and would provide a framework for 
us to invite input.
However, I submit that the grouping is in some ways artificial and
consequently could be problematic if we try and weigh the issues and 
concerns of one group against the other.
As examples consider consumer advocates and registrants. Some
consumer advocates might argue for strict limitation on access to 
WHOIS records while others would argue for a more liberal approach 
(privacy vs fraud prevention/detection). Similarly, some registrants 
will want anonymity and therefore a strict limitation on access (e.g.
dissidents) while others will argue for easier access in order to 
enhance the security of the Internet generally (e.g. to reduce spam, 
phishing, malware, and the like).
In my opinion, there are legitimate reasons for both "open" and
restricted access. Those reasons need not neatly fall into groups, 
regardless of how we attempt to organize things. From my perspective, 
that is the larger issue; how to grant legitimate access to certain 
pieces of information traditionally carried by WHOIS and at the same 
time, restrict access to information carried in WHOIS.
Finally, the grouping follows "ICANN tradition" and may tend to pit,
for example, some registrants against some registrars/registries. In 
my opinion, that would be unfortunate if it causes groups/individuals 
to resort to the entrenched positions that have been held for years. I
...
believe we need a different approach for a way forward.
...
Regards,
Bill
...
-----Original Message-----
From: Kim G. von Arx [mailto:kim@vonarx.ca]
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 9:16 AM
To: Smith, Bill
Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org
Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Planning our next steps
Hi Bill:
I am not suggesting that we give them a preferred position, nor do 
I think we should give anyone a preferred position, but listen to 
the various stakeholders.  This, of course, raises the issue, as we
...
...
...
had discussed on our last call, who are stakeholders are.
I agree with you that it is a large group of varied interests, but 
I think we need to start somewhere and the known and strong 
advocates
so
far are law enforcement, consumer advocates, rights holders, and 
registrants in general.  I think that, in general, those three
groups
will cover a large majority of the interest groups provided we keep
...
...
...
each broad enough.
In light of that, my suggestion was simply to give us the various 
perspective of a number of different interest groups.  I suspect
that
we will have various other people speak at our face to face 
meetings
to
provide their respective views.
Kim
On 12 Nov 2010, at 12:01, Smith, Bill wrote:
...
With a broad interpretation, should there be any limitation
regarding
where concerns originate from? I think not.
Copyright and trademark owners wish to protect their property.
Certain website/domain owners wish to protect their legitimate need
for
anonymity. Yet other entities wish to address issues related to 
phishing, spam, malware, fraud, etc. via legitimate efforts to
protect
their customers and good name. And there are many, many more such 
scenarios.
I'd hesitate to give "rights holders", or any other stakeholder a
preferred position at our table. All have legitimate interests.
...
-----Original Message-----
From: rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org [mailto:rt4-whois-
bounces@icann.org]
On Behalf Of Kim G. von Arx
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 8:31 AM
To: Woeber@CC.UniVie.ac.at
Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org
Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Planning our next steps
Hi Wilfried:
I don't think we should necessarily limit it to just trademark
owners,
but IP rights holders in general as issues may arise with respect
to,
e.g., copyright.
Kim
On 12 Nov 2010, at 11:20, Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet wrote:
...
Hi Kim, Team!
Kim G. von Arx wrote:
> Hi Emily et al:
>
>
>> - What is ICANN's policy at the moment?  Would any member of
the
Team be in a position to do a presentation on this?  Or should we
...
...
...
...
...
invite someone from the staff to cover this point?
...
>
>
> I would suggest a staff member to make that presentation
+1, actually it would be nice if some information for this topic
would
already be available (probably only in rough draft format) for
the
Sunday
get-together.
Alternatively, a set of pointers to relevant information or
documents.
> I agree with all of the items listed, but hope that we will 
> have
started most of the work already.  My thinking is that our face 
to
face
meetings, however, should focus on fine tuning rough brushstroke 
proposals and advance contentious and problematic areas as well 
as provide expert presentations to assist us to reach consensus. 
I
would
like to also suggest that we invite someone from the 
rights-holder constituency to bring their concerns to the table. 
With respect
to
format, I think it would be best if we start all of our face to
face
meetings with administrative issues first and then dive in to the
...
...
...
...
...
presentations for half a day and then commence the substantive
work
for
the remaining 1.5 days.
...
"rights-holder" to be understood as trademark owners?
>> Attendance at San Francisco and other ICANN meetings
>>
>> I would welcome the Team's thoughts on this.  I'd like to
propose
the following format for all ICANN meetings that time place 
during
our
mandate
...
>>
>> - We all aim to have a 1.5 day Team meeting
>
>
> I would suggest that we aim for a 2-day team meeting to utilize
our
face to face time as much as possible.
OK for me.
>> - In addition, we should use ICANN meetings for outreach to:
>>       - the Supporting Organisations and Advisory Committees
>>       - the Board
>>       - any local stakeholder groups who are relevant to our
task
>>
>> I would like to use the outreach sessions to build liaison 
>> with
the
relevant SO/ACs, inform them about how and what we're doing, ask
them
what they think we should be doing, and how they can contribute 
to
our
task.   Would it be possible for those who have been put forward
by
different SO/ACs to accompany the Chair/Vice Chair to those
meetings
and help lead the discussions?
>
>
> agreed
>
>>
>> Our next call
>> I propose that in our next call we focus on:
>>
>> - broad brush stakeholder identification, from a global
perspective
>> - identifying what, if any, external resources we need.
>
>
> agreed.
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> -
--
--

...
Wilfried
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Re: [Rt4-whois] Planning our next steps

sharon.lemon＠soca.x.gsi.gov.uk

Wilfried Woeber, UniVie/ACOnet

Emily Taylor

lynn＠goodsecurityconsulting.com

Lutz Donnerhacke

Emily Taylor

Denise Michel

Denise Michel

Kim G. von Arx

Olivier ITEANU

Denise Michel

Denise Michel

Olivier ITEANU

Kathy Kleiman

Emily Taylor

Omar Kaminski

Yakushev Mikhail

Kathy Kleiman

Emily Taylor

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participants (11)