Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
I will not oppose it if we include all gTlds but my gut feeling is that the other registries may be opposed to being included in this web portal. If we keep it as uncomplicated as possible we are more likely to gain the consensus of the community. From: Seth M Reiss [mailto:seth.reiss@lex-ip.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:25 PM To: Susan Kawaguchi; 'Nettlefold, Peter'; jbladel@godaddy.com; emily@emilytaylor.eu Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org Subject: RE: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] I agree with Peter. I do not know why we would want to limit it to .com and .net even though these GTLDs present the greatest challenge to the WHOIS consumer. I think the smart portal idea that Lutz proposed avoid the concerns Kathy expressed regarding management; I am not sure I understand Susan’s concerns that it be limited to only to the two GTLDs most in need of the service. Seth From: rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Susan Kawaguchi Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:15 AM To: Nettlefold, Peter; 'jbladel@godaddy.com'; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu' Cc: 'rt4-whois@icann.org' Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] That was my understanding when we discussed previously but this would only be for .com and .net registrations. Is this feasible ? From: Nettlefold, Peter [mailto:Peter.Nettlefold@dbcde.gov.au] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:12 PM To: Susan Kawaguchi; 'jbladel@godaddy.com'; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu' Cc: 'rt4-whois@icann.org' Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Hello all, I've missed a lot of discussion on this overnight my time, so I apologise if I've missed something that answers my question. The references to an ICANN database are confusing to me, and may be part of the contention here. I had understood that we would recommend that ICANN create a smart web portal for consumers that would effectively do a WHOIS search for them. As I understood it, ICANN would not need to make its own database, thereby avoiding some of the data protection issues, and instead purely focus on the user experience. Is this what others had understood? If so, does this address the concerns about scope - ie why wouldn't ICANN provide a comprehensive search tool for all gTLDs? Please let me know if I've got this wrong. Cheers Peter From: Susan Kawaguchi [mailto:susank@fb.com] Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 03:27 AM To: James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com>; Emily Taylor <emily@emilytaylor.eu> Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org <rt4-whois@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns I agree that we should not try and answer all the questions but I was under the impression that the centralized WHOIS was only targeting .com and .net to solve the problem of having to search for the correct registrar out of the almost 1000 possible. I do not agree to include all gtlds. From: rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of James M. Bladel Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:21 AM To: Emily Taylor Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns No, I don't think we should attempt to answer these questions in RT4, nor presume that we have even identified all of the dependent questions. I believe our recommendation should task the Board, within a reasonable timeframe (90 days?), to request an issues report on a Centralized WHOIS system for all gTLDs, including how it should be operated and what measures would be adopted to protect against abuse / privacy violations / data harvesting. (This will initiate a PDP which, while slower, will be a more comprehensive approach) -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns From: Emily Taylor <emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>> Date: Wed, November 30, 2011 10:15 am To: "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>> Cc: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> Hi James Thanks for raising these points. Can you suggest some language which you think would work? Also, Kathy raised a good point about whether this is limited to thin registries (.com, .net) or all? I don't think we've ever discussed this. Kind regards Emily On 30 November 2011 16:06, James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>> wrote: I don't oppose this recommendation, but my issue with this is that we are once again being too vague in what we're asking. ICANN: Who? Staff? The Board? The GNSO? Contracted 3rd party? Set up: How? By launching a PDP? Sending out an RFP? Deadline? Are we confident that this group has considered all of the consequences to privacy, security, access, SLAs, etc.? (Reasons why a PDP can be more helpful for things like this...) Thanks-- J. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns From: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Wed, November 30, 2011 9:56 am To: rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> All, Is this the current version of the Lutz proposal now in circulation? I thought it applied only to a centralized database of the current "thin registries," namely .COM and .NET. If so, I can see the advantages and support sending it out as a recommendation in the draft report. But if this is a single database of all registries, thick and thin, now and in the future, I think we creating a database problem. It's an enormous amount of data and creates a focal point for abuse, for warehousing, etc. It's the type of policing job that ICANN has never had to do, and is not operationally set up to do. So thought summary: If ICANN is helping remedy a bad situation by operating a single registry for .COM and .NET to fix a historical problem, I think I am OK for now (pending review of the draft with registries -- after publication is fine). One database of all Whois information to Rule the World, not so good. RECOMMENDATION EDIT: Detailed recommendation: ICANN should set up a dedicated, multilingual website to allow "unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information" **FOR .COM AND .NET, THE EXISTING "THIN REGISTRIES"** even for those people which have problems with the plain WHOIS protocol. The WHOIS information should be collected by following the thin WHOIS approach starting at whois.iana.org<http://whois.iana.org>. The service should display the contractural relationships which are revealed by the WHOIS referals in a clear and understandable way. The results should be mark clearly the relevant information "including registrant, technical, ** DELETE BILLING** billing, and administrative contact" data. ** NOTE: Billing data, which includes credit cards Folks, is simply not displayed in any other Whois search results. It is only registrant, technical, and admin contact.** Best, Kathy
Proposal:
Summary: ICANN should set up and maintain a web interface to access all the WHOIS services in order to ease access to the WHOIS data.
Presumption: The AoC requires that "ICANN implement measures to maintain timely, unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information, including registrant, technical, billing, and administrative contact information."
Observation: An User Insight Report came up with the following results: + Almost nobody is aware of whois + Almost nobody is able to query a whois server correctly + Whois queries were done on websites which occur first in the search engine results. Usually those pages are overloaded with advertisments.
Detailed recommendation: ICANN should set up a dedicated, multilingual website to allow "unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information" even for those people which have problems with the plain WHOIS protocol.
The WHOIS information should be collected by following the thin WHOIS approach starting at whois.iana.org<http://whois.iana.org>. The service should display the contractural relationships which are revealed by the WHOIS referals in a clear and understandable way. The results should be mark clearly the relevant information "including registrant, technical, billing, and administrative contact" data.
The server needs to be run by ICANN itself, because the "timely, unrestricted and public access" is usually rate limited, stripped or even blocked by the various WHOIS server administrators for uncontractual third party access. ICANN itself is the only party having the power to overcome those limits using its contratual compliance. _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:Rt4-whois@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois
-- _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:Rt4-whois@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:Rt4-whois@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois -- [http://www.etlaw.co.uk/images/stories/etlaw/etclogo250x60.gif] 76 Temple Road, Oxford OX4 2EZ UK t: +44 (0)1865 582 811 • m: +44 (0)7540 049 322 emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu> www.etlaw.co.uk<http://www.etlaw.co.uk> Emily Taylor Consultancy Limited is a company registered in England and Wales No. 730471. VAT No. 114487713. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. This message has been content scanned by the Axway MailGate. MailGate uses policy enforcement to scan for known viruses, spam, undesirable content and malicious code. For more information on Axway products please visit www.axway.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with Susan. Does the most recent wording reflect the "smart web portal" concept? Sorry if I've missed it. Have just got in. On 30 November 2011 21:30, Susan Kawaguchi <susank@fb.com> wrote:
I will not oppose it if we include all gTlds but my gut feeling is that the other registries may be opposed to being included in this web portal. If we keep it as uncomplicated as possible we are more likely to gain the consensus of the community. ****
** **
** **
** **
*From:* Seth M Reiss [mailto:seth.reiss@lex-ip.com] *Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:25 PM *To:* Susan Kawaguchi; 'Nettlefold, Peter'; jbladel@godaddy.com; emily@emilytaylor.eu *Cc:* rt4-whois@icann.org *Subject:* RE: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]****
** **
I agree with Peter. I do not know why we would want to limit it to .com and .net even though these GTLDs present the greatest challenge to the WHOIS consumer. I think the smart portal idea that Lutz proposed avoid the concerns Kathy expressed regarding management; I am not sure I understand Susan’s concerns that it be limited to only to the two GTLDs most in need of the service.****
** **
Seth****
** **
*From:* rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Susan Kawaguchi
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:15 AM *To:* Nettlefold, Peter; 'jbladel@godaddy.com'; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu'
*Cc:* 'rt4-whois@icann.org' *Subject:* Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]****
** **
That was my understanding when we discussed previously but this would only be for .com and .net registrations. Is this feasible ? ****
** **
*From:* Nettlefold, Peter [mailto:Peter.Nettlefold@dbcde.gov.au] *Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:12 PM *To:* Susan Kawaguchi; 'jbladel@godaddy.com'; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu' *Cc:* 'rt4-whois@icann.org' *Subject:* Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]****
** **
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Hello all,
I've missed a lot of discussion on this overnight my time, so I apologise if I've missed something that answers my question.
The references to an ICANN database are confusing to me, and may be part of the contention here.
I had understood that we would recommend that ICANN create a smart web portal for consumers that would effectively do a WHOIS search for them. As I understood it, ICANN would not need to make its own database, thereby avoiding some of the data protection issues, and instead purely focus on the user experience.
Is this what others had understood?
If so, does this address the concerns about scope - ie why wouldn't ICANN provide a comprehensive search tool for all gTLDs?
Please let me know if I've got this wrong.
Cheers
Peter
****
*From*: Susan Kawaguchi [mailto:susank@fb.com] *Sent*: Thursday, December 01, 2011 03:27 AM *To*: James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com>; Emily Taylor < emily@emilytaylor.eu> *Cc*: rt4-whois@icann.org <rt4-whois@icann.org> *Subject*: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns ****
I agree that we should not try and answer all the questions but I was under the impression that the centralized WHOIS was only targeting .com and .net to solve the problem of having to search for the correct registrar out of the almost 1000 possible. ****
** **
I do not agree to include all gtlds. ****
** **
*From:* rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *James M. Bladel *Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:21 AM *To:* Emily Taylor *Cc:* rt4-whois@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns****
** **
No, I don't think we should attempt to answer these questions in RT4, nor presume that we have even identified all of the dependent questions.****
** **
I believe our recommendation should task the Board, within a reasonable timeframe (90 days?), to request an issues report on a Centralized WHOIS system for all gTLDs, including how it should be operated and what measures would be adopted to protect against abuse / privacy violations / data harvesting. ****
** **
(This will initiate a PDP which, while slower, will be a more comprehensive approach)****
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns From: Emily Taylor <emily@emilytaylor.eu> Date: Wed, November 30, 2011 10:15 am To: "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com> Cc: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, rt4-whois@icann.org
Hi James
Thanks for raising these points. Can you suggest some language which you think would work? Also, Kathy raised a good point about whether this is limited to thin registries (.com, .net) or all? I don't think we've ever discussed this.
Kind regards
Emily****
On 30 November 2011 16:06, James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com> wrote:*** *
I don't oppose this recommendation, but my issue with this is that we are once again being too vague in what we're asking.****
** **
ICANN: Who? Staff? The Board? The GNSO? Contracted 3rd party?****
** **
Set up: How? By launching a PDP? Sending out an RFP?****
** **
Deadline? ****
** **
Are we confident that this group has considered all of the consequences to privacy, security, access, SLAs, etc.? (Reasons why a PDP can be more helpful for things like this...)****
** **
Thanks--****
J.****
** **
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns From: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> Date: Wed, November 30, 2011 9:56 am To: rt4-whois@icann.org****
All, Is this the current version of the Lutz proposal now in circulation? I thought it applied only to a centralized database of the current "thin registries," namely .COM and .NET. If so, I can see the advantages and support sending it out as a recommendation in the draft report.
But if this is a single database of all registries, thick and thin, now and in the future, I think we creating a database problem. It's an enormous amount of data and creates a focal point for abuse, for warehousing, etc. It's the type of policing job that ICANN has never had to do, and is not operationally set up to do.
So thought summary: If ICANN is helping remedy a bad situation by operating a single registry for .COM and .NET to fix a historical problem, I think I am OK for now (pending review of the draft with registries -- after publication is fine). One database of all Whois information to Rule the World, not so good.
RECOMMENDATION EDIT:
Detailed recommendation: ICANN should set up a dedicated, multilingual website to allow "unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information" **FOR .COM AND .NET, THE EXISTING "THIN REGISTRIES"** even for those people which have problems with the plain WHOIS protocol.
The WHOIS information should be collected by following the thin WHOIS approach starting at whois.iana.org. The service should display the contractural relationships which are revealed by the WHOIS referals in a clear and understandable way. The results should be mark clearly the relevant information "including registrant, technical, ** DELETE BILLING** billing, and administrative contact" data.
** NOTE: Billing data, which includes credit cards Folks, is simply not displayed in any other Whois search results. It is only registrant, technical, and admin contact.**
Best, Kathy
Proposal:
Summary: ICANN should set up and maintain a web interface to access all the WHOIS services in order to ease access to the WHOIS data.
Presumption: The AoC requires that "ICANN implement measures to maintain timely, unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information, including registrant, technical, billing, and administrative contact information."
Observation: An User Insight Report came up with the following results: + Almost nobody is aware of whois + Almost nobody is able to query a whois server correctly + Whois queries were done on websites which occur first in the search engine results. Usually those pages are overloaded with advertisments.
Detailed recommendation: ICANN should set up a dedicated, multilingual website to allow "unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information" even for those people which have problems with the plain WHOIS protocol.
The WHOIS information should be collected by following the thin WHOIS approach starting at whois.iana.org. The service should display the contractural relationships which are revealed by the WHOIS referals in a clear and understandable way. The results should be mark clearly the relevant information "including registrant, technical, billing, and administrative contact" data.
The server needs to be run by ICANN itself, because the "timely, unrestricted and public access" is usually rate limited, stripped or even blocked by the various WHOIS server administrators for uncontractual third party access. ICANN itself is the only party having the power to overcome those limits using its contratual compliance. _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois
--
_______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois****
_______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois****
--
****
* *
76 Temple Road, Oxford OX4 2EZ UK t: +44 (0)1865 582 811 • m: +44 (0)7540 049 322 emily@emilytaylor.eu
*www.etlaw.co.uk*
Emily Taylor Consultancy Limited is a company registered in England and Wales No. 730471. VAT No. 114487713.****
** **
* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- * NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message.
This message has been content scanned by the Axway MailGate. MailGate uses policy enforcement to scan for known viruses, spam, undesirable content and malicious code. For more information on Axway products please visit www.axway.com.
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-- * * 76 Temple Road, Oxford OX4 2EZ UK t: +44 (0)1865 582 811 • m: +44 (0)7540 049 322 emily@emilytaylor.eu *www.etlaw.co.uk* Emily Taylor Consultancy Limited is a company registered in England and Wales No. 730471. VAT No. 114487713.
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Hi again, As this is our draft, can we propose a compehensive solution (there are good reasons in favour), and then see what the other registries say? Maybe they won't oppose it. And if they do, at least we'll know why. What would we lose by trying? Cheers Peter From: Emily Taylor [mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu] Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 08:32 AM To: Susan Kawaguchi <susank@fb.com> Cc: Seth M Reiss <seth.reiss@lex-ip.com>; Nettlefold, Peter; jbladel@godaddy.com <jbladel@godaddy.com>; rt4-whois@icann.org <rt4-whois@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] I agree with Susan. Does the most recent wording reflect the "smart web portal" concept? Sorry if I've missed it. Have just got in. On 30 November 2011 21:30, Susan Kawaguchi <susank@fb.com<mailto:susank@fb.com>> wrote: I will not oppose it if we include all gTlds but my gut feeling is that the other registries may be opposed to being included in this web portal. If we keep it as uncomplicated as possible we are more likely to gain the consensus of the community. From: Seth M Reiss [mailto:seth.reiss@lex-ip.com<mailto:seth.reiss@lex-ip.com>] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:25 PM To: Susan Kawaguchi; 'Nettlefold, Peter'; jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>; emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu> Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] I agree with Peter. I do not know why we would want to limit it to .com and .net even though these GTLDs present the greatest challenge to the WHOIS consumer. I think the smart portal idea that Lutz proposed avoid the concerns Kathy expressed regarding management; I am not sure I understand Susan’s concerns that it be limited to only to the two GTLDs most in need of the service. Seth From: rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org>] On Behalf Of Susan Kawaguchi Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:15 AM To: Nettlefold, Peter; 'jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>'; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>' Cc: 'rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org>' Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] That was my understanding when we discussed previously but this would only be for .com and .net registrations. Is this feasible ? From: Nettlefold, Peter [mailto:Peter.Nettlefold@dbcde.gov.au<mailto:Peter.Nettlefold@dbcde.gov.au>] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:12 PM To: Susan Kawaguchi; 'jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>'; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>' Cc: 'rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org>' Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Hello all, I've missed a lot of discussion on this overnight my time, so I apologise if I've missed something that answers my question. The references to an ICANN database are confusing to me, and may be part of the contention here. I had understood that we would recommend that ICANN create a smart web portal for consumers that would effectively do a WHOIS search for them. As I understood it, ICANN would not need to make its own database, thereby avoiding some of the data protection issues, and instead purely focus on the user experience. Is this what others had understood? If so, does this address the concerns about scope - ie why wouldn't ICANN provide a comprehensive search tool for all gTLDs? Please let me know if I've got this wrong. Cheers Peter From: Susan Kawaguchi [mailto:susank@fb.com<mailto:susank@fb.com>] Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 03:27 AM To: James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>; Emily Taylor <emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>> Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> <rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns I agree that we should not try and answer all the questions but I was under the impression that the centralized WHOIS was only targeting .com and .net to solve the problem of having to search for the correct registrar out of the almost 1000 possible. I do not agree to include all gtlds. From: rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org>] On Behalf Of James M. Bladel Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:21 AM To: Emily Taylor Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns No, I don't think we should attempt to answer these questions in RT4, nor presume that we have even identified all of the dependent questions. I believe our recommendation should task the Board, within a reasonable timeframe (90 days?), to request an issues report on a Centralized WHOIS system for all gTLDs, including how it should be operated and what measures would be adopted to protect against abuse / privacy violations / data harvesting. (This will initiate a PDP which, while slower, will be a more comprehensive approach) -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns From: Emily Taylor <emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>> Date: Wed, November 30, 2011 10:15 am To: "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>> Cc: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> Hi James Thanks for raising these points. Can you suggest some language which you think would work? Also, Kathy raised a good point about whether this is limited to thin registries (.com, .net) or all? I don't think we've ever discussed this. Kind regards Emily On 30 November 2011 16:06, James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>> wrote: I don't oppose this recommendation, but my issue with this is that we are once again being too vague in what we're asking. ICANN: Who? Staff? The Board? The GNSO? Contracted 3rd party? Set up: How? By launching a PDP? Sending out an RFP? Deadline? Are we confident that this group has considered all of the consequences to privacy, security, access, SLAs, etc.? (Reasons why a PDP can be more helpful for things like this...) Thanks-- J. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns From: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Wed, November 30, 2011 9:56 am To: rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> All, Is this the current version of the Lutz proposal now in circulation? I thought it applied only to a centralized database of the current "thin registries," namely .COM and .NET. If so, I can see the advantages and support sending it out as a recommendation in the draft report. But if this is a single database of all registries, thick and thin, now and in the future, I think we creating a database problem. It's an enormous amount of data and creates a focal point for abuse, for warehousing, etc. It's the type of policing job that ICANN has never had to do, and is not operationally set up to do. So thought summary: If ICANN is helping remedy a bad situation by operating a single registry for .COM and .NET to fix a historical problem, I think I am OK for now (pending review of the draft with registries -- after publication is fine). One database of all Whois information to Rule the World, not so good. RECOMMENDATION EDIT: Detailed recommendation: ICANN should set up a dedicated, multilingual website to allow "unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information" **FOR .COM AND .NET, THE EXISTING "THIN REGISTRIES"** even for those people which have problems with the plain WHOIS protocol. The WHOIS information should be collected by following the thin WHOIS approach starting at whois.iana.org<http://whois.iana.org>. The service should display the contractural relationships which are revealed by the WHOIS referals in a clear and understandable way. The results should be mark clearly the relevant information "including registrant, technical, ** DELETE BILLING** billing, and administrative contact" data. ** NOTE: Billing data, which includes credit cards Folks, is simply not displayed in any other Whois search results. It is only registrant, technical, and admin contact.** Best, Kathy
Proposal:
Summary: ICANN should set up and maintain a web interface to access all the WHOIS services in order to ease access to the WHOIS data.
Presumption: The AoC requires that "ICANN implement measures to maintain timely, unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information, including registrant, technical, billing, and administrative contact information."
Observation: An User Insight Report came up with the following results: + Almost nobody is aware of whois + Almost nobody is able to query a whois server correctly + Whois queries were done on websites which occur first in the search engine results. Usually those pages are overloaded with advertisments.
Detailed recommendation: ICANN should set up a dedicated, multilingual website to allow "unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information" even for those people which have problems with the plain WHOIS protocol.
The WHOIS information should be collected by following the thin WHOIS approach starting at whois.iana.org<http://whois.iana.org>. The service should display the contractural relationships which are revealed by the WHOIS referals in a clear and understandable way. The results should be mark clearly the relevant information "including registrant, technical, billing, and administrative contact" data.
The server needs to be run by ICANN itself, because the "timely, unrestricted and public access" is usually rate limited, stripped or even blocked by the various WHOIS server administrators for uncontractual third party access. ICANN itself is the only party having the power to overcome those limits using its contratual compliance. _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:Rt4-whois@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois
-- _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:Rt4-whois@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:Rt4-whois@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois -- [http://www.etlaw.co.uk/images/stories/etlaw/etclogo250x60.gif] 76 Temple Road, Oxford OX4 2EZ UK t: +44 (0)1865 582 811<tel:%2B44%20%280%291865%20582%20811> • m: +44 (0)7540 049 322<tel:%2B44%20%280%297540%20049%20322> emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu> www.etlaw.co.uk<http://www.etlaw.co.uk> Emily Taylor Consultancy Limited is a company registered in England and Wales No. 730471. VAT No. 114487713. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. This message has been content scanned by the Axway MailGate. MailGate uses policy enforcement to scan for known viruses, spam, undesirable content and malicious code. For more information on Axway products please visit www.axway.com<http://www.axway.com>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- [http://www.etlaw.co.uk/images/stories/etlaw/etclogo250x60.gif] 76 Temple Road, Oxford OX4 2EZ UK t: +44 (0)1865 582 811 • m: +44 (0)7540 049 322 emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu> www.etlaw.co.uk<http://www.etlaw.co.uk> Emily Taylor Consultancy Limited is a company registered in England and Wales No. 730471. VAT No. 114487713. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. This message has been content scanned by the Axway MailGate. MailGate uses policy enforcement to scan for known viruses, spam, undesirable content and malicious code. For more information on Axway products please visit www.axway.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
agreed From: Nettlefold, Peter [mailto:Peter.Nettlefold@dbcde.gov.au] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:39 PM To: 'emily@emilytaylor.eu'; Susan Kawaguchi Cc: 'seth.reiss@lex-ip.com'; 'jbladel@godaddy.com'; 'rt4-whois@icann.org' Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Hi again, As this is our draft, can we propose a compehensive solution (there are good reasons in favour), and then see what the other registries say? Maybe they won't oppose it. And if they do, at least we'll know why. What would we lose by trying? Cheers Peter From: Emily Taylor [mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu] Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 08:32 AM To: Susan Kawaguchi <susank@fb.com> Cc: Seth M Reiss <seth.reiss@lex-ip.com>; Nettlefold, Peter; jbladel@godaddy.com <jbladel@godaddy.com>; rt4-whois@icann.org <rt4-whois@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] I agree with Susan. Does the most recent wording reflect the "smart web portal" concept? Sorry if I've missed it. Have just got in. On 30 November 2011 21:30, Susan Kawaguchi <susank@fb.com<mailto:susank@fb.com>> wrote: I will not oppose it if we include all gTlds but my gut feeling is that the other registries may be opposed to being included in this web portal. If we keep it as uncomplicated as possible we are more likely to gain the consensus of the community. From: Seth M Reiss [mailto:seth.reiss@lex-ip.com<mailto:seth.reiss@lex-ip.com>] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:25 PM To: Susan Kawaguchi; 'Nettlefold, Peter'; jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>; emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu> Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] I agree with Peter. I do not know why we would want to limit it to .com and .net even though these GTLDs present the greatest challenge to the WHOIS consumer. I think the smart portal idea that Lutz proposed avoid the concerns Kathy expressed regarding management; I am not sure I understand Susan’s concerns that it be limited to only to the two GTLDs most in need of the service. Seth From: rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org>] On Behalf Of Susan Kawaguchi Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:15 AM To: Nettlefold, Peter; 'jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>'; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>' Cc: 'rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org>' Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] That was my understanding when we discussed previously but this would only be for .com and .net registrations. Is this feasible ? From: Nettlefold, Peter [mailto:Peter.Nettlefold@dbcde.gov.au<mailto:Peter.Nettlefold@dbcde.gov.au>] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:12 PM To: Susan Kawaguchi; 'jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>'; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>' Cc: 'rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org>' Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Hello all, I've missed a lot of discussion on this overnight my time, so I apologise if I've missed something that answers my question. The references to an ICANN database are confusing to me, and may be part of the contention here. I had understood that we would recommend that ICANN create a smart web portal for consumers that would effectively do a WHOIS search for them. As I understood it, ICANN would not need to make its own database, thereby avoiding some of the data protection issues, and instead purely focus on the user experience. Is this what others had understood? If so, does this address the concerns about scope - ie why wouldn't ICANN provide a comprehensive search tool for all gTLDs? Please let me know if I've got this wrong. Cheers Peter From: Susan Kawaguchi [mailto:susank@fb.com<mailto:susank@fb.com>] Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 03:27 AM To: James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>; Emily Taylor <emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>> Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> <rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns I agree that we should not try and answer all the questions but I was under the impression that the centralized WHOIS was only targeting .com and .net to solve the problem of having to search for the correct registrar out of the almost 1000 possible. I do not agree to include all gtlds. From: rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org>] On Behalf Of James M. Bladel Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:21 AM To: Emily Taylor Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns No, I don't think we should attempt to answer these questions in RT4, nor presume that we have even identified all of the dependent questions. I believe our recommendation should task the Board, within a reasonable timeframe (90 days?), to request an issues report on a Centralized WHOIS system for all gTLDs, including how it should be operated and what measures would be adopted to protect against abuse / privacy violations / data harvesting. (This will initiate a PDP which, while slower, will be a more comprehensive approach) -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns From: Emily Taylor <emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>> Date: Wed, November 30, 2011 10:15 am To: "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>> Cc: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> Hi James Thanks for raising these points. Can you suggest some language which you think would work? Also, Kathy raised a good point about whether this is limited to thin registries (.com, .net) or all? I don't think we've ever discussed this. Kind regards Emily On 30 November 2011 16:06, James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>> wrote: I don't oppose this recommendation, but my issue with this is that we are once again being too vague in what we're asking. ICANN: Who? Staff? The Board? The GNSO? Contracted 3rd party? Set up: How? By launching a PDP? Sending out an RFP? Deadline? Are we confident that this group has considered all of the consequences to privacy, security, access, SLAs, etc.? (Reasons why a PDP can be more helpful for things like this...) Thanks-- J. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns From: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com<mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Wed, November 30, 2011 9:56 am To: rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> All, Is this the current version of the Lutz proposal now in circulation? I thought it applied only to a centralized database of the current "thin registries," namely .COM and .NET. If so, I can see the advantages and support sending it out as a recommendation in the draft report. But if this is a single database of all registries, thick and thin, now and in the future, I think we creating a database problem. It's an enormous amount of data and creates a focal point for abuse, for warehousing, etc. It's the type of policing job that ICANN has never had to do, and is not operationally set up to do. So thought summary: If ICANN is helping remedy a bad situation by operating a single registry for .COM and .NET to fix a historical problem, I think I am OK for now (pending review of the draft with registries -- after publication is fine). One database of all Whois information to Rule the World, not so good. RECOMMENDATION EDIT: Detailed recommendation: ICANN should set up a dedicated, multilingual website to allow "unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information" **FOR .COM AND .NET, THE EXISTING "THIN REGISTRIES"** even for those people which have problems with the plain WHOIS protocol. The WHOIS information should be collected by following the thin WHOIS approach starting at whois.iana.org<http://whois.iana.org>. The service should display the contractural relationships which are revealed by the WHOIS referals in a clear and understandable way. The results should be mark clearly the relevant information "including registrant, technical, ** DELETE BILLING** billing, and administrative contact" data. ** NOTE: Billing data, which includes credit cards Folks, is simply not displayed in any other Whois search results. It is only registrant, technical, and admin contact.** Best, Kathy
Proposal:
Summary: ICANN should set up and maintain a web interface to access all the WHOIS services in order to ease access to the WHOIS data.
Presumption: The AoC requires that "ICANN implement measures to maintain timely, unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information, including registrant, technical, billing, and administrative contact information."
Observation: An User Insight Report came up with the following results: + Almost nobody is aware of whois + Almost nobody is able to query a whois server correctly + Whois queries were done on websites which occur first in the search engine results. Usually those pages are overloaded with advertisments.
Detailed recommendation: ICANN should set up a dedicated, multilingual website to allow "unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information" even for those people which have problems with the plain WHOIS protocol.
The WHOIS information should be collected by following the thin WHOIS approach starting at whois.iana.org<http://whois.iana.org>. The service should display the contractural relationships which are revealed by the WHOIS referals in a clear and understandable way. The results should be mark clearly the relevant information "including registrant, technical, billing, and administrative contact" data.
The server needs to be run by ICANN itself, because the "timely, unrestricted and public access" is usually rate limited, stripped or even blocked by the various WHOIS server administrators for uncontractual third party access. ICANN itself is the only party having the power to overcome those limits using its contratual compliance. _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:Rt4-whois@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois
-- _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:Rt4-whois@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org<mailto:Rt4-whois@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois -- [http://www.etlaw.co.uk/images/stories/etlaw/etclogo250x60.gif] 76 Temple Road, Oxford OX4 2EZ UK t: +44 (0)1865 582 811<tel:%2B44%20%280%291865%20582%20811> • m: +44 (0)7540 049 322<tel:%2B44%20%280%297540%20049%20322> emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu> www.etlaw.co.uk<http://www.etlaw.co.uk> Emily Taylor Consultancy Limited is a company registered in England and Wales No. 730471. VAT No. 114487713. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. This message has been content scanned by the Axway MailGate. MailGate uses policy enforcement to scan for known viruses, spam, undesirable content and malicious code. For more information on Axway products please visit www.axway.com<http://www.axway.com>. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- [http://www.etlaw.co.uk/images/stories/etlaw/etclogo250x60.gif] 76 Temple Road, Oxford OX4 2EZ UK t: +44 (0)1865 582 811 • m: +44 (0)7540 049 322 emily@emilytaylor.eu<mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu> www.etlaw.co.uk<http://www.etlaw.co.uk> Emily Taylor Consultancy Limited is a company registered in England and Wales No. 730471. VAT No. 114487713. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. This message has been content scanned by the Axway MailGate. MailGate uses policy enforcement to scan for known viruses, spam, undesirable content and malicious code. For more information on Axway products please visit www.axway.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If we cannot get a consensus for applying the smart portal ideas for all registries, then how about stating that it should be implemented for at least the .com and .net registry with the view of extending it to other existing and future registries as appropriate. Seth From: Susan Kawaguchi [mailto:susank@fb.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:40 AM To: Nettlefold, Peter; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu' Cc: 'seth.reiss@lex-ip.com'; 'jbladel@godaddy.com'; 'rt4-whois@icann.org' Subject: RE: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] agreed From: Nettlefold, Peter [mailto:Peter.Nettlefold@dbcde.gov.au] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:39 PM To: 'emily@emilytaylor.eu'; Susan Kawaguchi Cc: 'seth.reiss@lex-ip.com'; 'jbladel@godaddy.com'; 'rt4-whois@icann.org' Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Hi again, As this is our draft, can we propose a compehensive solution (there are good reasons in favour), and then see what the other registries say? Maybe they won't oppose it. And if they do, at least we'll know why. What would we lose by trying? Cheers Peter From: Emily Taylor [mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu] Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 08:32 AM To: Susan Kawaguchi <susank@fb.com> Cc: Seth M Reiss <seth.reiss@lex-ip.com>; Nettlefold, Peter; jbladel@godaddy.com <jbladel@godaddy.com>; rt4-whois@icann.org <rt4-whois@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] I agree with Susan. Does the most recent wording reflect the "smart web portal" concept? Sorry if I've missed it. Have just got in. On 30 November 2011 21:30, Susan Kawaguchi <susank@fb.com> wrote: I will not oppose it if we include all gTlds but my gut feeling is that the other registries may be opposed to being included in this web portal. If we keep it as uncomplicated as possible we are more likely to gain the consensus of the community. From: Seth M Reiss [mailto:seth.reiss@lex-ip.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:25 PM To: Susan Kawaguchi; 'Nettlefold, Peter'; jbladel@godaddy.com; emily@emilytaylor.eu Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org Subject: RE: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] I agree with Peter. I do not know why we would want to limit it to .com and .net even though these GTLDs present the greatest challenge to the WHOIS consumer. I think the smart portal idea that Lutz proposed avoid the concerns Kathy expressed regarding management; I am not sure I understand Susan’s concerns that it be limited to only to the two GTLDs most in need of the service. Seth From: rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Susan Kawaguchi Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:15 AM To: Nettlefold, Peter; 'jbladel@godaddy.com'; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu' Cc: 'rt4-whois@icann.org' Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] That was my understanding when we discussed previously but this would only be for .com and .net registrations. Is this feasible ? From: Nettlefold, Peter [mailto:Peter.Nettlefold@dbcde.gov.au] Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:12 PM To: Susan Kawaguchi; 'jbladel@godaddy.com'; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu' Cc: 'rt4-whois@icann.org' Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] Classification: UNCLASSIFIED Hello all, I've missed a lot of discussion on this overnight my time, so I apologise if I've missed something that answers my question. The references to an ICANN database are confusing to me, and may be part of the contention here. I had understood that we would recommend that ICANN create a smart web portal for consumers that would effectively do a WHOIS search for them. As I understood it, ICANN would not need to make its own database, thereby avoiding some of the data protection issues, and instead purely focus on the user experience. Is this what others had understood? If so, does this address the concerns about scope - ie why wouldn't ICANN provide a comprehensive search tool for all gTLDs? Please let me know if I've got this wrong. Cheers Peter From: Susan Kawaguchi [mailto:susank@fb.com] Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 03:27 AM To: James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com>; Emily Taylor <emily@emilytaylor.eu> Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org <rt4-whois@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns I agree that we should not try and answer all the questions but I was under the impression that the centralized WHOIS was only targeting .com and .net to solve the problem of having to search for the correct registrar out of the almost 1000 possible. I do not agree to include all gtlds. From: rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of James M. Bladel Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:21 AM To: Emily Taylor Cc: rt4-whois@icann.org Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns No, I don't think we should attempt to answer these questions in RT4, nor presume that we have even identified all of the dependent questions. I believe our recommendation should task the Board, within a reasonable timeframe (90 days?), to request an issues report on a Centralized WHOIS system for all gTLDs, including how it should be operated and what measures would be adopted to protect against abuse / privacy violations / data harvesting. (This will initiate a PDP which, while slower, will be a more comprehensive approach) -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns From: Emily Taylor <emily@emilytaylor.eu> Date: Wed, November 30, 2011 10:15 am To: "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com> Cc: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com>, rt4-whois@icann.org Hi James Thanks for raising these points. Can you suggest some language which you think would work? Also, Kathy raised a good point about whether this is limited to thin registries (.com, .net) or all? I don't think we've ever discussed this. Kind regards Emily On 30 November 2011 16:06, James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com> wrote: I don't oppose this recommendation, but my issue with this is that we are once again being too vague in what we're asking. ICANN: Who? Staff? The Board? The GNSO? Contracted 3rd party? Set up: How? By launching a PDP? Sending out an RFP? Deadline? Are we confident that this group has considered all of the consequences to privacy, security, access, SLAs, etc.? (Reasons why a PDP can be more helpful for things like this...) Thanks-- J. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns From: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com> Date: Wed, November 30, 2011 9:56 am To: rt4-whois@icann.org All, Is this the current version of the Lutz proposal now in circulation? I thought it applied only to a centralized database of the current "thin registries," namely .COM and .NET. If so, I can see the advantages and support sending it out as a recommendation in the draft report. But if this is a single database of all registries, thick and thin, now and in the future, I think we creating a database problem. It's an enormous amount of data and creates a focal point for abuse, for warehousing, etc. It's the type of policing job that ICANN has never had to do, and is not operationally set up to do. So thought summary: If ICANN is helping remedy a bad situation by operating a single registry for .COM and .NET to fix a historical problem, I think I am OK for now (pending review of the draft with registries -- after publication is fine). One database of all Whois information to Rule the World, not so good. RECOMMENDATION EDIT: Detailed recommendation: ICANN should set up a dedicated, multilingual website to allow "unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information" **FOR .COM AND .NET, THE EXISTING "THIN REGISTRIES"** even for those people which have problems with the plain WHOIS protocol. The WHOIS information should be collected by following the thin WHOIS approach starting at whois.iana.org. The service should display the contractural relationships which are revealed by the WHOIS referals in a clear and understandable way. The results should be mark clearly the relevant information "including registrant, technical, ** DELETE BILLING** billing, and administrative contact" data. ** NOTE: Billing data, which includes credit cards Folks, is simply not displayed in any other Whois search results. It is only registrant, technical, and admin contact.** Best, Kathy
Proposal:
Summary: ICANN should set up and maintain a web interface to access all the WHOIS services in order to ease access to the WHOIS data.
Presumption: The AoC requires that "ICANN implement measures to maintain timely, unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information, including registrant, technical, billing, and administrative contact information."
Observation: An User Insight Report came up with the following results: + Almost nobody is aware of whois + Almost nobody is able to query a whois server correctly + Whois queries were done on websites which occur first in the search engine results. Usually those pages are overloaded with advertisments.
Detailed recommendation: ICANN should set up a dedicated, multilingual website to allow "unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information" even for those people which have problems with the plain WHOIS protocol.
The WHOIS information should be collected by following the thin WHOIS approach starting at whois.iana.org. The service should display the contractural relationships which are revealed by the WHOIS referals in a clear and understandable way. The results should be mark clearly the relevant information "including registrant, technical, billing, and administrative contact" data.
The server needs to be run by ICANN itself, because the "timely, unrestricted and public access" is usually rate limited, stripped or even blocked by the various WHOIS server administrators for uncontractual third party access. ICANN itself is the only party having the power to overcome those limits using its contratual compliance. _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois
-- _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois _______________________________________________ Rt4-whois mailing list Rt4-whois@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois -- <http://www.etlaw.co.uk/images/stories/etlaw/etclogo250x60.gif> 76 Temple Road, Oxford OX4 2EZ UK t: +44 (0)1865 582 811 <tel:%2B44%20%280%291865%20582%20811> • m: +44 (0)7540 049 322 <tel:%2B44%20%280%297540%20049%20322> emily@emilytaylor.eu www.etlaw.co.uk Emily Taylor Consultancy Limited is a company registered in England and Wales No. 730471. VAT No. 114487713. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. This message has been content scanned by the Axway MailGate. MailGate uses policy enforcement to scan for known viruses, spam, undesirable content and malicious code. For more information on Axway products please visit www.axway.com. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- <http://www.etlaw.co.uk/images/stories/etlaw/etclogo250x60.gif> 76 Temple Road, Oxford OX4 2EZ UK t: +44 (0)1865 582 811 • m: +44 (0)7540 049 322 emily@emilytaylor.eu www.etlaw.co.uk Emily Taylor Consultancy Limited is a company registered in England and Wales No. 730471. VAT No. 114487713. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NOTICE: This email message is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. This message has been content scanned by the Axway MailGate. MailGate uses policy enforcement to scan for known viruses, spam, undesirable content and malicious code. For more information on Axway products please visit www.axway.com. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry Peter, I see your reasoning, but I can't agree with this one. Its a huge registry issue and I see LOTS of problems with it, including the massive transition of personal data across national borders on a massive scale. I really don't see going forward with an enormous new database -- it's policy for the highest form, and on a matter we have not even agreed to the problems of (missing the fact-based research). Again, I see a fact-finding problem that we discussed, researched and even proved in Lynn's study with .COM and .NET. Solving the findabiliity in the thin registries we have the base for. But I simply don't see a problem with .ORG, .INFO, .BIZ, and all the other Thick Registries. They are all doing their jobs quite well, no one has called them out to us, they are the model for the new gTLDs -- changing how they operate and how this data is processed is a whole different ballgame. That's a horse of a different color. Kathy agreed
*From:*Nettlefold, Peter [mailto:Peter.Nettlefold@dbcde.gov.au] *Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:39 PM *To:* 'emily@emilytaylor.eu'; Susan Kawaguchi *Cc:* 'seth.reiss@lex-ip.com'; 'jbladel@godaddy.com'; 'rt4-whois@icann.org' *Subject:* Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Hi again,
As this is our draft, can we propose a compehensive solution (there are good reasons in favour), and then see what the other registries say? Maybe they won't oppose it. And if they do, at least we'll know why.
What would we lose by trying?
Cheers
Peter
*From*: Emily Taylor [mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu] *Sent*: Thursday, December 01, 2011 08:32 AM *To*: Susan Kawaguchi <susank@fb.com> *Cc*: Seth M Reiss <seth.reiss@lex-ip.com>; Nettlefold, Peter; jbladel@godaddy.com <jbladel@godaddy.com>; rt4-whois@icann.org <rt4-whois@icann.org> *Subject*: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
I agree with Susan.
Does the most recent wording reflect the "smart web portal" concept? Sorry if I've missed it. Have just got in.
On 30 November 2011 21:30, Susan Kawaguchi <susank@fb.com <mailto:susank@fb.com>> wrote:
I will not oppose it if we include all gTlds but my gut feeling is that the other registries may be opposed to being included in this web portal. If we keep it as uncomplicated as possible we are more likely to gain the consensus of the community.
*From:*Seth M Reiss [mailto:seth.reiss@lex-ip.com <mailto:seth.reiss@lex-ip.com>] *Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:25 PM *To:* Susan Kawaguchi; 'Nettlefold, Peter'; jbladel@godaddy.com <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>; emily@emilytaylor.eu <mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu> *Cc:* rt4-whois@icann.org <mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> *Subject:* RE: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
I agree with Peter. I do not know why we would want to limit it to .com and .net even though these GTLDs present the greatest challenge to the WHOIS consumer. I think the smart portal idea that Lutz proposed avoid the concerns Kathy expressed regarding management; I am not sure I understand Susan's concerns that it be limited to only to the two GTLDs most in need of the service.
Seth
*From:*rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org <mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org <mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Susan Kawaguchi
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2011 11:15 AM
*To:* Nettlefold, Peter; 'jbladel@godaddy.com <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>'; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu <mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>'
*Cc:* 'rt4-whois@icann.org <mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org>' *Subject:* Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
That was my understanding when we discussed previously but this would only be for .com and .net registrations. Is this feasible ?
*From:*Nettlefold, Peter [mailto:Peter.Nettlefold@dbcde.gov.au <mailto:Peter.Nettlefold@dbcde.gov.au>] *Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2011 1:12 PM *To:* Susan Kawaguchi; 'jbladel@godaddy.com <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>'; 'emily@emilytaylor.eu <mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>' *Cc:* 'rt4-whois@icann.org <mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org>' *Subject:* Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Hello all,
I've missed a lot of discussion on this overnight my time, so I apologise if I've missed something that answers my question.
The references to an ICANN database are confusing to me, and may be part of the contention here.
I had understood that we would recommend that ICANN create a smart web portal for consumers that would effectively do a WHOIS search for them. As I understood it, ICANN would not need to make its own database, thereby avoiding some of the data protection issues, and instead purely focus on the user experience.
Is this what others had understood?
If so, does this address the concerns about scope - ie why wouldn't ICANN provide a comprehensive search tool for all gTLDs?
Please let me know if I've got this wrong.
Cheers
Peter
*From*: Susan Kawaguchi [mailto:susank@fb.com <mailto:susank@fb.com>] *Sent*: Thursday, December 01, 2011 03:27 AM *To*: James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>; Emily Taylor <emily@emilytaylor.eu <mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>> *Cc*: rt4-whois@icann.org <mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> <rt4-whois@icann.org <mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org>> *Subject*: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns
I agree that we should not try and answer all the questions but I was under the impression that the centralized WHOIS was only targeting .com and .net to solve the problem of having to search for the correct registrar out of the almost 1000 possible.
I do not agree to include all gtlds.
*From:*rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org <mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org <mailto:rt4-whois-bounces@icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *James M. Bladel *Sent:* Wednesday, November 30, 2011 8:21 AM *To:* Emily Taylor *Cc:* rt4-whois@icann.org <mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns
No, I don't think we should attempt to answer these questions in RT4, nor presume that we have even identified all of the dependent questions.
I believe our recommendation should task the Board, within a reasonable timeframe (90 days?), to request an issues report on a Centralized WHOIS system for all gTLDs, including how it should be operated and what measures would be adopted to protect against abuse / privacy violations / data harvesting.
(This will initiate a PDP which, while slower, will be a more comprehensive approach)
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns From: Emily Taylor <emily@emilytaylor.eu <mailto:emily@emilytaylor.eu>> Date: Wed, November 30, 2011 10:15 am To: "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>> Cc: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>>, rt4-whois@icann.org <mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org>
Hi James
Thanks for raising these points. Can you suggest some language which you think would work? Also, Kathy raised a good point about whether this is limited to thin registries (.com, .net) or all? I don't think we've ever discussed this.
Kind regards
Emily
On 30 November 2011 16:06, James M. Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>> wrote:
I don't oppose this recommendation, but my issue with this is that we are once again being too vague in what we're asking.
ICANN: Who? Staff? The Board? The GNSO? Contracted 3rd party?
Set up: How? By launching a PDP? Sending out an RFP?
Deadline?
Are we confident that this group has considered all of the consequences to privacy, security, access, SLAs, etc.? (Reasons why a PDP can be more helpful for things like this...)
Thanks--
J.
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Rt4-whois] Centralized Whois Query system run by ICANN - Scope and concerns From: Kathy Kleiman <kathy@kathykleiman.com <mailto:kathy@kathykleiman.com>> Date: Wed, November 30, 2011 9:56 am To: rt4-whois@icann.org <mailto:rt4-whois@icann.org>
All, Is this the current version of the Lutz proposal now in circulation? I thought it applied only to a centralized database of the current "thin registries," namely .COM and .NET. If so, I can see the advantages and support sending it out as a recommendation in the draft report.
But if this is a single database of all registries, thick and thin, now and in the future, I think we creating a database problem. It's an enormous amount of data and creates a focal point for abuse, for warehousing, etc. It's the type of policing job that ICANN has never had to do, and is not operationally set up to do.
So thought summary: If ICANN is helping remedy a bad situation by operating a single registry for .COM and .NET to fix a historical problem, I think I am OK for now (pending review of the draft with registries -- after publication is fine). One database of all Whois information to Rule the World, not so good.
RECOMMENDATION EDIT:
Detailed recommendation: ICANN should set up a dedicated, multilingual website to allow "unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information" **FOR .COM AND .NET, THE EXISTING "THIN REGISTRIES"** even for those people which have problems with the plain WHOIS protocol.
The WHOIS information should be collected by following the thin WHOIS approach starting at whois.iana.org <http://whois.iana.org>. The service should display the contractural relationships which are revealed by the WHOIS referals in a clear and understandable way. The results should be mark clearly the relevant information "including registrant, technical, ** DELETE BILLING** billing, and administrative contact" data.
** NOTE: Billing data, which includes credit cards Folks, is simply not displayed in any other Whois search results. It is only registrant, technical, and admin contact.**
Best, Kathy
> Proposal: > > Summary: > ICANN should set up and maintain a web interface to access > all the WHOIS services in order to ease access to the WHOIS data. > > Presumption: > The AoC requires that "ICANN implement measures to maintain timely, > unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS information, > including registrant, technical, billing, and administrative contact > information." > > Observation: > An User Insight Report came up with the following results: > + Almost nobody is aware of whois > + Almost nobody is able to query a whois server correctly > + Whois queries were done on websites which occur first in the search > engine results. Usually those pages are overloaded with advertisments. > > Detailed recommendation: > ICANN should set up a dedicated, multilingual website to allow > "unrestricted and public access to accurate and complete WHOIS > information" even for those people which have problems with the plain > WHOIS protocol. > > The WHOIS information should be collected by following the thin WHOIS > approach starting at whois.iana.org <http://whois.iana.org>. The service should display the > contractural relationships which are revealed by the WHOIS referals in > a clear and understandable way. The results should be mark clearly the > relevant information "including registrant, technical, billing, and > administrative contact" data. > > The server needs to be run by ICANN itself, because the "timely, > unrestricted and public access" is usually rate limited, stripped or even > blocked by the various WHOIS server administrators for uncontractual > third party access. ICANN itself is the only party having the power to > overcome those limits using its contratual compliance. > _______________________________________________ > Rt4-whois mailing list > Rt4-whois@icann.org <mailto:Rt4-whois@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/rt4-whois
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participants (5)
-
Emily Taylor -
Kathy Kleiman -
Nettlefold, Peter -
Seth M Reiss -
Susan Kawaguchi