Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
Hi, Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too. Ajay, have you tested your xgenplus app against any other servers, or just your own? Just curious. Arnt From: Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in> Date: Saturday, 25 January 2025 at 00:52 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today Microsoft outlook, Android email, gmail app, ios app, xgenplus email app, all support EAI perfectly well. If anyone want to test EAI anytime with EAI id, Datamail app with eai email accounts are always available. Thanks Ajay On January 25, 2025 3:32:50 AM GMT+05:30, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> wrote: Hi, There isn’t much. I know about Thunderbird (except Android), Mustang, aerc, mutt. There are a couple who I think want it but don’t test systematically, I have a feeling that lack of servers in their testing roster is a major reason for that. One of those is very well known, but I’m not naming names. I also know one that appears to be ua-ready with gmail but not with my mail server, because it speaks gmail-api with gmail and imap with mine. I suspect it’s not unique. Arnt From: John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks Date: Friday, 24 January 2025 at 19:38 To: "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Cc: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] Re: [UA-EAI] Dovecot 2.4 released today It appears that Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org<mailto:arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>> said: At some point in the next six months I think it will be simple for mail client authors to test EAI support, because at least one server in their testing setup will already have support. Any idea if there are any popular mail clients with IMAP EAI support? When I looked a while ago I didn't see any that tried to use Courier's features. R's, John -- Sent from my Android device with XGen Email. [Image removed by sender.]
Hi, We raised it last year, via someone they have to listen to. Microsoft isn’t as responsive nowadays as it was. I heard the same story from someone whose job it is to make calendar invitations work across different email systems: One or two people move from one team to another, and the company starts/stops fixing bugs in an area. Sigh. Arnt From: Don Hollander <don.hollander@gmail.com> Date: Monday, 27 January 2025 at 09:09 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org> Cc: Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in>, John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today Raise it as a bug. Unless you happen to know someone at msft who could do that directly. I’m sure we had someone from their dev team at. UASG meeting in Guangzhou Sent from my iPad On 27 Jan 2025, at 8:49 PM, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> wrote: Hi, Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too. Ajay, have you tested your xgenplus app against any other servers, or just your own? Just curious. Arnt From: Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in> Date: Saturday, 25 January 2025 at 00:52 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today Microsoft outlook, Android email, gmail app, ios app, xgenplus email app, all support EAI perfectly well. If anyone want to test EAI anytime with EAI id, Datamail app with eai email accounts are always available. Thanks Ajay On January 25, 2025 3:32:50 AM GMT+05:30, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> wrote: Hi, There isn’t much. I know about Thunderbird (except Android), Mustang, aerc, mutt. There are a couple who I think want it but don’t test systematically, I have a feeling that lack of servers in their testing roster is a major reason for that. One of those is very well known, but I’m not naming names. I also know one that appears to be ua-ready with gmail but not with my mail server, because it speaks gmail-api with gmail and imap with mine. I suspect it’s not unique. Arnt From: John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks Date: Friday, 24 January 2025 at 19:38 To: "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Cc: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] Re: [UA-EAI] Dovecot 2.4 released today It appears that Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org<mailto:arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>> said: At some point in the next six months I think it will be simple for mail client authors to test EAI support, because at least one server in their testing setup will already have support. Any idea if there are any popular mail clients with IMAP EAI support? When I looked a while ago I didn't see any that tried to use Courier's features. R's, John -- Sent from my Android device with XGen Email. [Image removed by sender.] <Screenshot 2025-01-27 at 08.45.09.png> _______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list -- ua-eai@icann.org To unsubscribe send an email to ua-eai-leave@icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Could you re-send the screen shot? From: Don Hollander via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> Sent: Monday, January 27, 2025 12:09 AM To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org> Cc: John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com>; ua-eai@icann.org Subject: [EXTERNAL] [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today Raise it as a bug. Unless you happen to know someone at msft who could do that directly. I’m sure we had someone from their dev team at. UASG meeting in Guangzhou Sent from my iPad On 27 Jan 2025, at 8:49 PM, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>> wrote: Hi, Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too. Ajay, have you tested your xgenplus app against any other servers, or just your own? Just curious. Arnt From: Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in<mailto:ajay@data.in>> Date: Saturday, 25 January 2025 at 00:52 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org<mailto:arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>>, John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com<mailto:john.levine@standcore.com>>, "ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>" <ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today Microsoft outlook, Android email, gmail app, ios app, xgenplus email app, all support EAI perfectly well. If anyone want to test EAI anytime with EAI id, Datamail app with eai email accounts are always available. Thanks Ajay On January 25, 2025 3:32:50 AM GMT+05:30, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>> wrote: Hi, There isn’t much. I know about Thunderbird (except Android), Mustang, aerc, mutt. There are a couple who I think want it but don’t test systematically, I have a feeling that lack of servers in their testing roster is a major reason for that. One of those is very well known, but I’m not naming names. I also know one that appears to be ua-ready with gmail but not with my mail server, because it speaks gmail-api with gmail and imap with mine. I suspect it’s not unique. Arnt From: John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com<mailto:john.levine@standcore.com>> Organization: Taughannock Networks Date: Friday, 24 January 2025 at 19:38 To: "ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>" <ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>> Cc: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org<mailto:arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>> Subject: [Ext] Re: [UA-EAI] Dovecot 2.4 released today It appears that Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org<mailto:arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>> said: At some point in the next six months I think it will be simple for mail client authors to test EAI support, because at least one server in their testing setup will already have support. Any idea if there are any popular mail clients with IMAP EAI support? When I looked a while ago I didn't see any that tried to use Courier's features. R's, John -- Sent from my Android device with XGen Email. [Image removed by sender.] <Screenshot 2025-01-27 at 08.45.09.png> _______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list -- ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org> To unsubscribe send an email to ua-eai-leave@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai-leave@icann.org> _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
Yes, one can get an EAI using datamail app and test them against all email clients. We successfully use them on ios 18 mail, android mail, and gmail app and offcourse on XgenPlus email app. Latest MS outlook client works very well. Thanks Ajay On January 27, 2025 1:19:01 PM GMT+05:30, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org> wrote:
Hi,
Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too.
Ajay, have you tested your xgenplus app against any other servers, or just your own? Just curious.
Arnt
From: Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in> Date: Saturday, 25 January 2025 at 00:52 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
Microsoft outlook, Android email, gmail app, ios app, xgenplus email app, all support EAI perfectly well.
If anyone want to test EAI anytime with EAI id, Datamail app with eai email accounts are always available.
Thanks
Ajay
On January 25, 2025 3:32:50 AM GMT+05:30, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> wrote: Hi,
There isn’t much. I know about Thunderbird (except Android), Mustang, aerc, mutt.
There are a couple who I think want it but don’t test systematically, I have a feeling that lack of servers in their testing roster is a major reason for that. One of those is very well known, but I’m not naming names. I also know one that appears to be ua-ready with gmail but not with my mail server, because it speaks gmail-api with gmail and imap with mine. I suspect it’s not unique.
Arnt
From: John Levine <john.levine@standcore.com> Organization: Taughannock Networks Date: Friday, 24 January 2025 at 19:38 To: "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Cc: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] Re: [UA-EAI] Dovecot 2.4 released today
It appears that Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org<mailto:arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>> said: At some point in the next six months I think it will be simple for mail client authors to test EAI support, because at least one server in their testing setup will already have support.
Any idea if there are any popular mail clients with IMAP EAI support? When I looked a while ago I didn't see any that tried to use Courier's features.
R's, John
-- Sent from my Android device with XGen Email. [Image removed by sender.]
-- Sent from my Android device with XGen Email.
On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too.
When I was testing EAI software a while ago, I found almost no IMAP clients or servers that had the EAI extensions, but it hardly mattered since they handled EAI messages and UTF-8 folder names using the regular non-EAI methods. Dovecot, at least up to 2.3, only allows ASCII user names and passwords (I looked at the code.) In 2.4 it should allow them if your client turns on the extension. Any idea if it does even if you don't? Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Hi, Dovecot allows practically everything even if you don’t enable UTF8=ACCEPT. From memory there are only two differences: 1. Dovecot won’t allow a well-behaved MTA such as Exim or Postfix to deliver mail with SMTPUTF8. Postfix has an option to override that, I’m sure there are other ways as well. I doubt that many people enable this option, or one of the other ways. 2. If a message arrives From: blå@xn--gr-zia.org, such as you might see if the message is from Exchange, then you may see xn- -gr-zia in the user interface of a mail reader, and a search for grå may or may not find the message. If UTF8=ACCEPT is enabled you should only ever see grå and searching should work reliably. Dovecot’s handling of unexpected Unicode is so liberal that some clients protest 😉 Arnt From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> Date: Monday, 27 January 2025 at 18:18 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too. When I was testing EAI software a while ago, I found almost no IMAP clients or servers that had the EAI extensions, but it hardly mattered since they handled EAI messages and UTF-8 folder names using the regular non-EAI methods. Dovecot, at least up to 2.3, only allows ASCII user names and passwords (I looked at the code.) In 2.4 it should allow them if your client turns on the extension. Any idea if it does even if you don't? Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$> [jl[.]ly]
On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
Dovecot allows practically everything even if you don’t enable UTF8=ACCEPT. From memory there are only two differences:
1. Dovecot won’t allow a well-behaved MTA such as Exim or Postfix to deliver mail with SMTPUTF8. Postfix has an option to override that, I’m sure there are other ways as well. I doubt that many people enable this option, or one of the other ways. 2. If a message arrives From: blå@xn--gr-zia.org, such as you might see if the message is from Exchange, then you may see xn- -gr-zia in the user interface of a mail reader, and a search for grå may or may not find the message. If UTF8=ACCEPT is enabled you should only ever see grå and searching should work reliably.
That sounds right. But the bit about ASCII usernames and passwords is also true. I looked at the code which is quite simple.
Dovecot’s handling of unexpected Unicode is so liberal that some clients protest 😉
Arnt
From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> Date: Monday, 27 January 2025 at 18:18 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too.
When I was testing EAI software a while ago, I found almost no IMAP clients or servers that had the EAI extensions, but it hardly mattered since they handled EAI messages and UTF-8 folder names using the regular non-EAI methods. Dovecot, at least up to 2.3, only allows ASCII user names and passwords (I looked at the code.) In 2.4 it should allow them if your client turns on the extension. Any idea if it does even if you don't?
Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$> [jl[.]ly]
Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly
Hi, I may be confused, by which I mean that I definitely am confused by hope I’m not TOO confused about this particular part of the world. The LOGIN command allows only ASCII usernames and passwords, but various forms of AUTHENTICATE allow anything and everything, independent of UTF8=ACCEPT. I like AUTHENTICATE much better than LOGIN and see Oauth and/or Passkey as the way forward for UA. (I have opinions about which is best, but in truth I’ll be happy if there’s traction on either. Anything good enough is good enough.) Arnt From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> Date: Tuesday, 28 January 2025 at 18:23 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Dovecot allows practically everything even if you don’t enable UTF8=ACCEPT. From memory there are only two differences: 1. Dovecot won’t allow a well-behaved MTA such as Exim or Postfix to deliver mail with SMTPUTF8. Postfix has an option to override that, I’m sure there are other ways as well. I doubt that many people enable this option, or one of the other ways. 2. If a message arrives From: blå@xn--gr-zia.org, such as you might see if the message is from Exchange, then you may see xn- -gr-zia in the user interface of a mail reader, and a search for grå may or may not find the message. If UTF8=ACCEPT is enabled you should only ever see grå and searching should work reliably. That sounds right. But the bit about ASCII usernames and passwords is also true. I looked at the code which is quite simple. Dovecot’s handling of unexpected Unicode is so liberal that some clients protest 😉 Arnt From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com<mailto:johnl@iecc.com>> Date: Monday, 27 January 2025 at 18:18 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org<mailto:arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in<mailto:ajay@data.in>>, "ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>" <ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too. When I was testing EAI software a while ago, I found almost no IMAP clients or servers that had the EAI extensions, but it hardly mattered since they handled EAI messages and UTF-8 folder names using the regular non-EAI methods. Dovecot, at least up to 2.3, only allows ASCII user names and passwords (I looked at the code.) In 2.4 it should allow them if your client turns on the extension. Any idea if it does even if you don't? Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com><mailto:johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$> [jl[.]ly] Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqik0H70GAoSZlAv5_4R2KOiXJX_e4uMnRMebvaogGDVi_eQouUXoUw63y5EiX2W4dLA$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqik0H70GAoSZlAv5_4R2KOiXJX_e4uMnRMebvaogGDVi_eQouUXoUw63y5EiX2W4dLA$> [jl[.]ly]
I am currently finishing the EAI-focusee Explainer Video for this UA Day and beyond (the technical class has already been finalized and delivered to leadership). In case the EAI community feels that any of the data that can be generalized from this thread (and adjacent data) needs to be in that video, I just need to have it formatted in a way that works for a more general audience. e.g..: what are the specific repeating questions that stop the clients from being certified Gold. Let me know. On January 28, 2025 7:16:50 PM UTC, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> wrote:
Hi,
I may be confused, by which I mean that I definitely am confused by hope I’m not TOO confused about this particular part of the world.
The LOGIN command allows only ASCII usernames and passwords, but various forms of AUTHENTICATE allow anything and everything, independent of UTF8=ACCEPT. I like AUTHENTICATE much better than LOGIN and see Oauth and/or Passkey as the way forward for UA. (I have opinions about which is best, but in truth I’ll be happy if there’s traction on either. Anything good enough is good enough.)
Arnt
From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> Date: Tuesday, 28 January 2025 at 18:23 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Dovecot allows practically everything even if you don’t enable UTF8=ACCEPT. From memory there are only two differences:
1. Dovecot won’t allow a well-behaved MTA such as Exim or Postfix to deliver mail with SMTPUTF8. Postfix has an option to override that, I’m sure there are other ways as well. I doubt that many people enable this option, or one of the other ways. 2. If a message arrives From: blå@xn--gr-zia.org, such as you might see if the message is from Exchange, then you may see xn- -gr-zia in the user interface of a mail reader, and a search for grå may or may not find the message. If UTF8=ACCEPT is enabled you should only ever see grå and searching should work reliably.
That sounds right. But the bit about ASCII usernames and passwords is also true. I looked at the code which is quite simple.
Dovecot’s handling of unexpected Unicode is so liberal that some clients protest 😉
Arnt
From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com<mailto:johnl@iecc.com>> Date: Monday, 27 January 2025 at 18:18 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org<mailto:arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in<mailto:ajay@data.in>>, "ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>" <ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too.
When I was testing EAI software a while ago, I found almost no IMAP clients or servers that had the EAI extensions, but it hardly mattered since they handled EAI messages and UTF-8 folder names using the regular non-EAI methods. Dovecot, at least up to 2.3, only allows ASCII user names and passwords (I looked at the code.) In 2.4 it should allow them if your client turns on the extension. Any idea if it does even if you don't?
Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com><mailto:johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$> [jl[.]ly]
Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqik0H70GAoSZlAv5_4R2KOiXJX_e4uMnRMebvaogGDVi_eQouUXoUw63y5EiX2W4dLA$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqik0H70GAoSZlAv5_4R2KOiXJX_e4uMnRMebvaogGDVi_eQouUXoUw63y5EiX2W4dLA$> [jl[.]ly]
--- Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer
Hello all, Just wanted to bring Mark’s email on top of your email box as we are finalizing the video. Last call for your feedback to the questions Mark raised below. With thanks for all feedback! Seda From: "Mark W. Datysgeld via UA-EAI" <ua-eai@icann.org> Reply to: "Mark W. Datysgeld" <mark@governanceprimer.com> Date: 29 January 2025 Wednesday at 00:06 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org>, "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today I am currently finishing the EAI-focusee Explainer Video for this UA Day and beyond (the technical class has already been finalized and delivered to leadership). In case the EAI community feels that any of the data that can be generalized from this thread (and adjacent data) needs to be in that video, I just need to have it formatted in a way that works for a more general audience. e.g..: what are the specific repeating questions that stop the clients from being certified Gold. Let me know. On January 28, 2025 7:16:50 PM UTC, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> wrote: Hi, I may be confused, by which I mean that I definitely am confused by hope I’m not TOO confused about this particular part of the world. The LOGIN command allows only ASCII usernames and passwords, but various forms of AUTHENTICATE allow anything and everything, independent of UTF8=ACCEPT. I like AUTHENTICATE much better than LOGIN and see Oauth and/or Passkey as the way forward for UA. (I have opinions about which is best, but in truth I’ll be happy if there’s traction on either. Anything good enough is good enough.) Arnt From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> Date: Tuesday, 28 January 2025 at 18:23 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Dovecot allows practically everything even if you don’t enable UTF8=ACCEPT. From memory there are only two differences: 1. Dovecot won’t allow a well-behaved MTA such as Exim or Postfix to deliver mail with SMTPUTF8. Postfix has an option to override that, I’m sure there are other ways as well. I doubt that many people enable this option, or one of the other ways. 2. If a message arrives From: blå@xn--gr-zia.org, such as you might see if the message is from Exchange, then you may see xn- -gr-zia in the user interface of a mail reader, and a search for grå may or may not find the message. If UTF8=ACCEPT is enabled you should only ever see grå and searching should work reliably. That sounds right. But the bit about ASCII usernames and passwords is also true. I looked at the code which is quite simple. Dovecot’s handling of unexpected Unicode is so liberal that some clients protest 😉 Arnt From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com<mailto:johnl@iecc.com>> Date: Monday, 27 January 2025 at 18:18 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org<mailto:arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in<mailto:ajay@data.in>>, "ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>" <ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too. When I was testing EAI software a while ago, I found almost no IMAP clients or servers that had the EAI extensions, but it hardly mattered since they handled EAI messages and UTF-8 folder names using the regular non-EAI methods. Dovecot, at least up to 2.3, only allows ASCII user names and passwords (I looked at the code.) In 2.4 it should allow them if your client turns on the extension. Any idea if it does even if you don't? Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com><mailto:johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$> [jl[.]ly] Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqik0H70GAoSZlAv5_4R2KOiXJX_e4uMnRMebvaogGDVi_eQouUXoUw63y5EiX2W4dLA$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqik0H70GAoSZlAv5_4R2KOiXJX_e4uMnRMebvaogGDVi_eQouUXoUw63y5EiX2W4dLA$> [jl[.]ly] ________________________________ Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer
Hi, I didn’t want to reply to this, it’s too depressing. Some ask “what’ the point? Who uses this?” Some ask “how can I test?” The latter is depressingly hard, but should become easier when all of the top five open source mail servers support it. Most client authors appear to have one or more of those in their existing test setup. I hope that reduces the effort needed to test such that more developers judge the value to be worth the effort. I don’t think this explainer even should answer the former… however, when I am asked that question, I usually answer something along the lines of “people are better at using spelling their coworkers’ names than at transliterating the names reliably to Latin, and anyway, why should they do that in the first place? Shouldn’t we rather adapt computers to users than force humans to conform to computers? Life would also be simpler in many ways if everyone spoke English but I’m not going to work towards that, I like it when people make their own choices and computers serve people.” Arnt From: Seda Akbulut <seda.akbulut@icann.org> Date: Friday, 7 February 2025 at 11:20 To: "Mark W. Datysgeld" <mark@governanceprimer.com>, Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org>, "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today Hello all, Just wanted to bring Mark’s email on top of your email box as we are finalizing the video. Last call for your feedback to the questions Mark raised below. With thanks for all feedback! Seda From: "Mark W. Datysgeld via UA-EAI" <ua-eai@icann.org> Reply to: "Mark W. Datysgeld" <mark@governanceprimer.com> Date: 29 January 2025 Wednesday at 00:06 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org>, "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today I am currently finishing the EAI-focusee Explainer Video for this UA Day and beyond (the technical class has already been finalized and delivered to leadership). In case the EAI community feels that any of the data that can be generalized from this thread (and adjacent data) needs to be in that video, I just need to have it formatted in a way that works for a more general audience. e.g..: what are the specific repeating questions that stop the clients from being certified Gold. Let me know. On January 28, 2025 7:16:50 PM UTC, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> wrote: Hi, I may be confused, by which I mean that I definitely am confused by hope I’m not TOO confused about this particular part of the world. The LOGIN command allows only ASCII usernames and passwords, but various forms of AUTHENTICATE allow anything and everything, independent of UTF8=ACCEPT. I like AUTHENTICATE much better than LOGIN and see Oauth and/or Passkey as the way forward for UA. (I have opinions about which is best, but in truth I’ll be happy if there’s traction on either. Anything good enough is good enough.) Arnt From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> Date: Tuesday, 28 January 2025 at 18:23 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Dovecot allows practically everything even if you don’t enable UTF8=ACCEPT. From memory there are only two differences: 1. Dovecot won’t allow a well-behaved MTA such as Exim or Postfix to deliver mail with SMTPUTF8. Postfix has an option to override that, I’m sure there are other ways as well. I doubt that many people enable this option, or one of the other ways. 2. If a message arrives From: blå@xn--gr-zia.org, such as you might see if the message is from Exchange, then you may see xn- -gr-zia in the user interface of a mail reader, and a search for grå may or may not find the message. If UTF8=ACCEPT is enabled you should only ever see grå and searching should work reliably. That sounds right. But the bit about ASCII usernames and passwords is also true. I looked at the code which is quite simple. Dovecot’s handling of unexpected Unicode is so liberal that some clients protest 😉 Arnt From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com<mailto:johnl@iecc.com>> Date: Monday, 27 January 2025 at 18:18 To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org<mailto:arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in<mailto:ajay@data.in>>, "ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>" <ua-eai@icann.org<mailto:ua-eai@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote: Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too. When I was testing EAI software a while ago, I found almost no IMAP clients or servers that had the EAI extensions, but it hardly mattered since they handled EAI messages and UTF-8 folder names using the regular non-EAI methods. Dovecot, at least up to 2.3, only allows ASCII user names and passwords (I looked at the code.) In 2.4 it should allow them if your client turns on the extension. Any idea if it does even if you don't? Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com><mailto:johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$> [jl[.]ly] Regards, John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqik0H70GAoSZlAv5_4R2KOiXJX_e4uMnRMebvaogGDVi_eQouUXoUw63y5EiX2W4dLA$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqik0H70GAoSZlAv5_4R2KOiXJX_e4uMnRMebvaogGDVi_eQouUXoUw63y5EiX2W4dLA$> [jl[.]ly] ________________________________ Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer
Mark D, EAI WG colleagues: I don't really know the intended message or audience of this "EAI-focused Explainer Video for this UA Day and beyond", so I'm guessing at suggestions. But if most of the thread about Dovecot seems to have been at the level of technical detail. I think it is probably out of scope for a non-technical "explainer video". The most important message for an EAI-focused explainer video is that the EAI Self-Certification Guide provides a way for email buyers and email vendors to communicate about EAI support. EAI buyers use the Guide to understand what the levels, "Silver", "Gold", and "Platinum", mean for satisfying their EAI needs, and then specify that they want to buy email products and services with "Silver", "Gold", or "Platinum" support. EAI vendors use the Guide to certify their products as "Silver", "Gold", or "Platinum" level, then use the terms "Silver", "Gold", and "Platinum" in their marketing materials to communicate EAI support to customers. Once buyers and sellers are using that common language to communicate about EAI support, then the technical experts on each side can wade into the details of whether SMTP AUTHENTICATE is better than LOGIN and such. At a high level, "Silver" level means that the software can correspond with others who use globally inclusive (EAI) email addresses, but the organisation's own email addresses are limited Latin only. "Gold" level means that the organisation's own email addresses can be globally inclusive, with some configuration or non-default settings or rough edges, plus all the benefits of "Silver". "Platinum" gives all the benefits of "Gold", but using default settings and with no rough edges and with polish. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt On 2025-02-07 02:20, Seda Akbulut via UA-EAI wrote:
Hello all,
Just wanted to bring Mark’s email on top of your email box as we are finalizing the video. Last call for your feedback to the questions Mark raised below.
With thanks for all feedback!
Seda
*From: *"Mark W. Datysgeld via UA-EAI" <ua-eai@icann.org> *Reply to: *"Mark W. Datysgeld" <mark@governanceprimer.com> *Date: *29 January 2025 Wednesday at 00:06 *To: *Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org>, "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> *Subject: *[UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
I am currently finishing the EAI-focusee Explainer Video for this UA Day and beyond (the technical class has already been finalized and delivered to leadership).
In case the EAI community feels that any of the data that can be generalized from this thread (and adjacent data) needs to be in that video, I just need to have it formatted in a way that works for a more general audience.
e.g..: what are the specific repeating questions that stop the clients from being certified Gold.
Let me know.
On January 28, 2025 7:16:50 PM UTC, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> wrote:
Hi,
I may be confused, by which I mean that I definitely am confused by hope I’m not TOO confused about this particular part of the world.
The LOGIN command allows only ASCII usernames and passwords, but various forms of AUTHENTICATE allow anything and everything, independent of UTF8=ACCEPT. I like AUTHENTICATE much better than LOGIN and see Oauth and/or Passkey as the way forward for UA. (I have opinions about which is best, but in truth I’ll be happy if there’s traction on either. Anything good enough is good enough.)
Arnt
*From: *"John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> *Date: *Tuesday, 28 January 2025 at 18:23 *To: *Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
Dovecot allows practically everything even if you don’t enable UTF8=ACCEPT. From memory there are only two differences:
1. Dovecot won’t allow a well-behaved MTA such as Exim or Postfix to deliver mail with SMTPUTF8. Postfix has an option to override that, I’m sure there are other ways as well. I doubt that many people enable this option, or one of the other ways.
2. If a message arrives From: blå@xn--gr-zia.org, such as you might see if the message is from Exchange, then you may see xn- -gr-zia in the user interface of a mail reader, and a search for grå may or may not find the message. If UTF8=ACCEPT is enabled you should only ever see grå and searching should work reliably.
That sounds right. But the bit about ASCII usernames and passwords is
also true. I looked at the code which is quite simple.
Dovecot’s handling of unexpected Unicode is so liberal that some clients protest 😉
Arnt
From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com>
Date: Monday, 27 January 2025 at 18:18
To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org>
Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too.
When I was testing EAI software a while ago, I found almost no IMAP
clients or servers that had the EAI extensions, but it hardly mattered
since they handled EAI messages and UTF-8 folder names using the regular
non-EAI methods. Dovecot, at least up to 2.3, only allows ASCII user
names and passwords (I looked at the code.) In 2.4 it should allow them
if your client turns on the extension. Any idea if it does even if you
don't?
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7e... <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$> [jl[.]ly]
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqi... <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqik...> [jl[.]ly]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer
_______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list --ua-eai@icann.org To unsubscribe send an email toua-eai-leave@icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- --Jim DeLaHunt,jdlh@jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant, Vancouver, Canada
Noted both Arnt's and Jim's comments! On 7 Feb 2025 17:22, Jim DeLaHunt wrote:
Mark D, EAI WG colleagues:
I don't really know the intended message or audience of this "EAI-focused Explainer Video for this UA Day and beyond", so I'm guessing at suggestions.
But if most of the thread about Dovecot seems to have been at the level of technical detail. I think it is probably out of scope for a non-technical "explainer video".
The most important message for an EAI-focused explainer video is that the EAI Self-Certification Guide provides a way for email buyers and email vendors to communicate about EAI support. EAI buyers use the Guide to understand what the levels, "Silver", "Gold", and "Platinum", mean for satisfying their EAI needs, and then specify that they want to buy email products and services with "Silver", "Gold", or "Platinum" support. EAI vendors use the Guide to certify their products as "Silver", "Gold", or "Platinum" level, then use the terms "Silver", "Gold", and "Platinum" in their marketing materials to communicate EAI support to customers.
Once buyers and sellers are using that common language to communicate about EAI support, then the technical experts on each side can wade into the details of whether SMTP AUTHENTICATE is better than LOGIN and such.
At a high level, "Silver" level means that the software can correspond with others who use globally inclusive (EAI) email addresses, but the organisation's own email addresses are limited Latin only. "Gold" level means that the organisation's own email addresses can be globally inclusive, with some configuration or non-default settings or rough edges, plus all the benefits of "Silver". "Platinum" gives all the benefits of "Gold", but using default settings and with no rough edges and with polish.
Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt
On 2025-02-07 02:20, Seda Akbulut via UA-EAI wrote:
Hello all,
Just wanted to bring Mark’s email on top of your email box as we are finalizing the video. Last call for your feedback to the questions Mark raised below.
With thanks for all feedback!
Seda
*From: *"Mark W. Datysgeld via UA-EAI" <ua-eai@icann.org> *Reply to: *"Mark W. Datysgeld" <mark@governanceprimer.com> *Date: *29 January 2025 Wednesday at 00:06 *To: *Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org>, "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> *Subject: *[UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
I am currently finishing the EAI-focusee Explainer Video for this UA Day and beyond (the technical class has already been finalized and delivered to leadership).
In case the EAI community feels that any of the data that can be generalized from this thread (and adjacent data) needs to be in that video, I just need to have it formatted in a way that works for a more general audience.
e.g..: what are the specific repeating questions that stop the clients from being certified Gold.
Let me know.
On January 28, 2025 7:16:50 PM UTC, Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI <ua-eai@icann.org> wrote:
Hi,
I may be confused, by which I mean that I definitely am confused by hope I’m not TOO confused about this particular part of the world.
The LOGIN command allows only ASCII usernames and passwords, but various forms of AUTHENTICATE allow anything and everything, independent of UTF8=ACCEPT. I like AUTHENTICATE much better than LOGIN and see Oauth and/or Passkey as the way forward for UA. (I have opinions about which is best, but in truth I’ll be happy if there’s traction on either. Anything good enough is good enough.)
Arnt
*From: *"John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> *Date: *Tuesday, 28 January 2025 at 18:23 *To: *Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
Dovecot allows practically everything even if you don’t enable UTF8=ACCEPT. From memory there are only two differences:
1. Dovecot won’t allow a well-behaved MTA such as Exim or Postfix to deliver mail with SMTPUTF8. Postfix has an option to override that, I’m sure there are other ways as well. I doubt that many people enable this option, or one of the other ways.
2. If a message arrives From: blå@xn--gr-zia.org, such as you might see if the message is from Exchange, then you may see xn- -gr-zia in the user interface of a mail reader, and a search for grå may or may not find the message. If UTF8=ACCEPT is enabled you should only ever see grå and searching should work reliably.
That sounds right. But the bit about ASCII usernames and passwords is
also true. I looked at the code which is quite simple.
Dovecot’s handling of unexpected Unicode is so liberal that some clients protest 😉
Arnt
From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com>
Date: Monday, 27 January 2025 at 18:18
To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Dr Ajay Data <ajay@data.in>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org>
Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too.
When I was testing EAI software a while ago, I found almost no IMAP
clients or servers that had the EAI extensions, but it hardly mattered
since they handled EAI messages and UTF-8 folder names using the regular
non-EAI methods. Dovecot, at least up to 2.3, only allows ASCII user
names and passwords (I looked at the code.) In 2.4 it should allow them
if your client turns on the extension. Any idea if it does even if you
don't?
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7e... <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$><https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ekOnLeX0ksLCuPYAXi2tjyy2OiX7a3L7T76gEwl2jqmXZQE7FzzyALJh7NEVKAAjCw$> [jl[.]ly]
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqi... <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqik...> [jl[.]ly]
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark W. Datysgeld from Governance Primer
_______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list --ua-eai@icann.org To unsubscribe send an email toua-eai-leave@icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
-- --Jim DeLaHunt,jdlh@jdlh.com http://blog.jdlh.com/ (http://jdlh.com/) multilingual websites consultant, Vancouver, Canada
-- Mark W. Datysgeld Director at Governance Primer [governanceprimer.com <https://governanceprimer.com>] Project Lead Developer at ICANNWiki [icannwiki.org <https://icannwiki.org/>]
Arnt, I agree that AUTHENTICATE offers more flexibility than LOGIN, making it more suitable for modern authentication needs, to an extent making it a better fit for UA. As mail servers increasingly favor API-based authentication and device-specific access, OAuth and Passkeys align well with this trend. From my experience writing code to send emails from applications, I found that using *username and password login* with SMTP is becoming increasingly difficult due to stricter security measures enforced by email providers. e.g. Gmail has tightened security measures, making it challenging to rely on traditional username-password authentication. Instead, I had to resort to the Gmail API, which enforces OAuth-based authentication.. Also, mail servers requirement for two-factor authentication (2FA) is driving the transition away from basic login methods. Regards, Dessalegn On Tue, Jan 28, 2025 at 10:16 PM Arnt Gulbrandsen via UA-EAI < ua-eai@icann.org> wrote:
Hi,
I may be confused, by which I mean that I definitely am confused by hope I’m not TOO confused about this particular part of the world.
The LOGIN command allows only ASCII usernames and passwords, but various forms of AUTHENTICATE allow anything and everything, independent of UTF8=ACCEPT. I like AUTHENTICATE much better than LOGIN and see Oauth and/or Passkey as the way forward for UA. (I have opinions about which is best, but in truth I’ll be happy if there’s traction on either. Anything good enough is good enough.)
Arnt
*From: *"John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com> *Date: *Tuesday, 28 January 2025 at 18:23 *To: *Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Dr Ajay Data < ajay@data.in>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org> *Subject: *Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
On Tue, 28 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
Dovecot allows practically everything even if you don’t enable UTF8=ACCEPT. From memory there are only two differences:
1. Dovecot won’t allow a well-behaved MTA such as Exim or Postfix to deliver mail with SMTPUTF8. Postfix has an option to override that, I’m sure there are other ways as well. I doubt that many people enable this option, or one of the other ways.
2. If a message arrives From: blå@xn--gr-zia.org, such as you might see if the message is from Exchange, then you may see xn- -gr-zia in the user interface of a mail reader, and a search for grå may or may not find the message. If UTF8=ACCEPT is enabled you should only ever see grå and searching should work reliably.
That sounds right. But the bit about ASCII usernames and passwords is
also true. I looked at the code which is quite simple.
Dovecot’s handling of unexpected Unicode is so liberal that some clients protest 😉
Arnt
From: "John R. Levine" <johnl@iecc.com>
Date: Monday, 27 January 2025 at 18:18
To: Arnt Gulbrandsen <arnt.gulbrandsen@icann.org>, Dr Ajay Data < ajay@data.in>, "ua-eai@icann.org" <ua-eai@icann.org>
Subject: Re: [UA-EAI] Re: [Ext] Re: Dovecot 2.4 released today
On Mon, 27 Jan 2025, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
Sorry, I assumed that John’s question was about IMAP clients. I agree that there are more UA-ready mail clients in general, even if I’m a little surprised by that list. Last time I tested the ios app (Apple’s, I assume) it was unable to reply correctly, and since I’m typing this into Outlook, let’s test… nope, can’t add a Unicode address to this message, see screenshot. The previous version could do it, and OWA can too.
When I was testing EAI software a while ago, I found almost no IMAP
clients or servers that had the EAI extensions, but it hardly mattered
since they handled EAI messages and UTF-8 folder names using the regular
non-EAI methods. Dovecot, at least up to 2.3, only allows ASCII user
names and passwords (I looked at the code.) In 2.4 it should allow them
if your client turns on the extension. Any idea if it does even if you
don't?
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com<mailto:johnl@taugh.com>, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7e... <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ek...> < https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!_Btry1e7PUX8kBueTJCm7ek...> [jl[.]ly]
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqi... <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/jl.ly__;!!PtGJab4!7V0oLyLH8xxtpQ-lPC2Aqik...> [jl[.]ly]
_______________________________________________ UA-EAI mailing list -- ua-eai@icann.org To unsubscribe send an email to ua-eai-leave@icann.org _______________________________________________ By submitting your personal data, you consent to the processing of your personal data for purposes of subscribing to this mailing list accordance with the ICANN Privacy Policy (https://www.icann.org/privacy/policy) and the website Terms of Service (https://www.icann.org/privacy/tos). You can visit the Mailman link above to change your membership status or configuration, including unsubscribing, setting digest-style delivery or disabling delivery altogether (e.g., for a vacation), and so on.
participants (9)
-
Arnt Gulbrandsen -
Dessalegn Yehuala -
Don Hollander -
Dr Ajay Data -
Jim DeLaHunt -
John R. Levine -
Mark Svancarek (CELA) -
Mark W. Datysgeld -
Seda Akbulut