Niels,

First, welcome to the CCWG on Enhancing ICANN's Accountability. I suppose it's never to late to join in. I look forward to your contributions on a wide variety of issues. My responses to your email are inline below.

On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 4:44 AM, Niels ten Oever <lists@digitaldissidents.org> wrote:

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Hi Greg,

Thanks for this. I think many of these issues can be relatively simple
resolved.

GS: I tend to agree; of course, our definitions of simple may be somewhat different....

Underlying documents to human rights:

- - Universal Declaration of Human Rights
- - International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

GS: This is one possible list, and it has the virtue of being short and manageable.

We've discussed a number of other underlying documents on this and other lists. I see that you mention two of them below:

the UN Guiding Principles for Business and Human Rights

and the

ICT Sector Guide on Implementing the UN Guiding Principles on Business

and Human Rights

. I understand that these are less foundational and more implementation-oriented than the first two documents you mention, but from the point of considering what we are doing, these are (or rather, could be, if we adopt them) underlying documents. The Cisco report you cite also mentions "eight Core Labor Conventions developed by the International Labor Organization (ILO), and the United Nations Global Compact."

The AGB mentions the following as examples of "international law" (though not specifically as examples of human rights laws):

- The Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)

- The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR)

- The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW)

- The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination

- Declaration on the Elimination of Violence against Women

- The International Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights

- The Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

- The International Convention on the Protection of the Rights of all Migrant Workers and Members of their Families

- Slavery Convention

- Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

- Convention on the Rights of the Child

I honestly don't know which if any of these have relevance to fundamental human rights and ICANN's mission. I suppose we could wait until Workstream 2 to determine which if any of these should be explicitly seen as helping to define the Human Rights to which ICANN is committing.

These have been agreed upon by practically all states and are inherent
part of the body of international law. I don't think we would need to
re-discuss their validity, universality or applicability here.

I also don't think that a detailed discussion of the actual
implementation of this work needs to be discussed here. Detailed
implementation of policy does not belong in the bylaws.

GS: I agree with your second sentence but not your first. I don't think anyone has suggested that detailed implementation of policy belongs in the Bylaws. But the Bylaws are the tip of the iceberg. We do need reasonably detailed discussion to come to a common understanding of what ICANN is committing to and what the results and consequences of that commitment are. ICANN does not adopt or amend bylaws without relatively detailed rationales and underlying work. This should and must be the same for this, especially since it is being adopted as a "Core Value."

If you want to read more about it, I think the reports that Article19
produced for the CCWP on ICANNs Corporate and Social Responsibility to
Respect Human Rights could be a good starter. [0] As well as of course
the UN Guiding Principles for Business and Human Rights [1] and the
ICT Sector Guide on Implementing the UN Guiding Principles on Business
and Human Rights [2].

This is not something that we are reinventing here, but a practice
that many companies have already adopted, look for instance at Cisco
[3][4].

GS: Clearly, we are not starting from scratch. However, I don't think ICANN can be directly compared to a company like Cisco. Cisco runs a business; it doesn't make policy or set norms. ICANN may have a corporation with employees at its core (or arguably, not at the core), but it is more than that -- it is a multistakeholder governance ecosystem. I may be wrong, but I expect that the primary concern relating to ICANN and Human Rights relates to policy matters (and resulting implementation matters) and not to how ICANN run itself as a business (e.g., hiring, pay, benefits and other employee matters; purchasing decisions; etc.). As such, we really are breaking new ground here. As mentioned in my bullet point list, it would be interesting to know how other more comparable organizations have dealt with Human Rights commitments (e.g., the I* organizations, standard-setting NGO's, self-regulatory industry bodies, multistakeholder organizations, etc.)

Greg

Best,

Niels

[0] tinyurl.com/cchumanrights
[1] http://business-humanrights.org/en/un-guiding-principles
[2]
http://www.ihrb.org/pdf/eu-sector-guidance/EC-Guides/ICT/EC-Guide_ICT.pd
f
[3]
http://csr.cisco.com/cdnorigin/media/documents/Human-Rights_129973805781
330000.pdf
[4] http://www.cisco.com/assets/csr/pdf/CSR_Report_2014.pdf

On 08/06/2015 11:35 PM, Greg Shatan wrote:
> In terms of next steps, here is a list I put in an email about a
> week ago, slightly adapted for the current context.
>
> * study/analysis/discussion of the underlying documents (treaties,
> conventions, guidelines, standards, etc.) (which in turn requires
> determining which documents are relevant -- there have been
> several helpful suggestions but that can't automatically be taken
> as exhaustive or on-target), o understanding the rights put forth
> in these documents ( and any other rights put forth as human
> rights in the WG) , o understanding whether all rights under
> discussion are in fact "human rights", o understanding how these
> rights may interact and be balanced amongst themselves,
>
> * understanding how these rights relate to and interact with
> ICANN's mission and activities, o understanding how these rights
> interact with other rights and obligations in play at ICANN
> (including the range of possible outcomes of such interactions and
> how these interactions would take place and be resolved in the
> ICANN framework), o understanding how these rights interact with
> ICANN's existing obligations under US federal, state and local laws
> and regulations (some of which embody, in differing fashions and
> degrees, relevant international treaties and conventions) o how
> this relates (if at all) to ICANN's Corporate Social Responsibility
> and what efforts have been made or need to be made in that regard
> , * find out how other organizations similar to ICANN (e.g.,
> I* organizations) have dealt with these issues, * determining
> which Bylaws amendment is the most appropriate outcome relating to
> this issue (and noting that various proposals have been floated in
> recent weeks), * understanding the interaction between such an
> amendment and other B ylaws and the Articles of Incorporation, and
> other normative and operative ICANN documents, * determining what
> efforts may need to take place and what groups may need to be
> formed as a result of a Bylaw amendment (including without
> limitation PDP (or non-PDP) GNSO Working Groups or Cross-Community
> Working Groups ) , * understanding and integrating with
> other efforts taking place in and around ICANN (GAC WG, "Working
> Party"), * what an "impact analysis" would entail (who, when, how,
> what criteria, what deliverable, what scope, what triggers, etc.),
> * whether there are other "impact analyses" that should also be
> put in place at this time or which are already in place, * what the
> result, effects and consequences (intentional and unintentional) of
> various impact analysis outcomes would be (either on present policy
> and implementation, on future policy and implementation and on
> other ICANN activities).
>
> I think the last 4 points can be left to WS2. For the rest, we'll
> need to balance work in WS1 vs. WS2, but I think each requires some
> work in WS1 to have a framework of understanding the meaning and
> consequences of a Bylaws amendment, and to determine the best way
> forward in WS1. A number of these could (and probably should)
> generate (or be recast as) "Stress Tests."
>
> This is very much a first draft (or 1.1, since I did revisit it
> once), so further contributions and revisions are welcomed.
>
> Greg
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 4:17 PM, Greg Shatan
> <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Nope. Nothing hidden and nefarious here. I'll leave that to this
> guy: Greg Satan Twitter Page <https://twitter.com/GregShatan>
>
> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 3:52 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el@lisse.na
> <mailto:el@lisse.na>> wrote:
>
> Avri,
>
> same tactics as usual.
>
> Not unexpected.
>
>
> el
>
> -- Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini
>
> On Aug 6, 2015, at 20:44, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com
> <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Avri,
>>
>> You are certainly entitled to express yourself, and I look
>> forward to a robust and productive discussion. Again, there is
>> no intention to obfuscate. The intention is to clarify, which I
>> believe will build a stronger consensus.
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 3:38 PM, Avri Doria <avri@acm.org
>> <mailto:avri@acm.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Freedom of expression allows me to object to the statements you
>> make. I asked nicely, with a please even. I did not attempt to
>> regulate you speech.
>>
>> I am objecting to what I perceive to be tactics to obfuscate and
>> make things seem hidden and nefarious. That too is freedom of
>> expression.
>>
>> avri
>>
>>
>> On 06-Aug-15 15:34, Greg Shatan wrote:
>>> I really don't think using a 500 year old colloquialism
>>> "cheapens the discussion." I also find it ironic to find this
>>> admonition in a discussion about, inter alia, freedom of
>>> expression. Political correctness, trigger words, and other
>>> such stuff are a not inconsequential threat to freedom of
>>> expression and freedom of ideas -- starting with a kernel of
>>> good intentions, and then becoming quite damaging....
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 6, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Avri Doria <avri@acm.org
>>> <mailto:avri@acm.org> <mailto:avri@acm.org
>>> <mailto:avri@acm.org>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 06-Aug-15 14:28, Greg Shatan wrote:
>>>> Otherwise, we are just buying a pig in a poke.
>>>
>>>
>>> I really have trouble with such a reference to human rights.
>>> Please do not cheapen this discussion.
>>>
>>> avri
>>>
>>>
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- --
Niels ten Oever
Head of Digital

Article 19
www.article19.org

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