Ws2-hr

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September 2016

26 participants
22 discussions

Notes, recordings and transcript for WS2 Human Rights Subgroup Meeting #3 | 30 August
by MSSI Secretariat Sept. 5, 2016

Sept. 5, 2016

Hello all, The notes, recordings and transcripts for CCWG Accountability WS2 Human Resources Subgroup Meeting #3 -30 August 2016 will be available here: https://community.icann.org/x/CxKsAw A copy of the notes may be found below. Thank you. With kind regards, Brenda Brewer MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant ICANN - Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers Notes 1. Administrivia Roll call, absentees, SoIs, etc * Dan Appleman phone only * Nigel Roberts - excuses. 2. Discussion on: the Summary on what was agreed and discussed on human rights during WS1 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rwpw9aSAqboRO2_rNkjMVJPOmYwmdr5B1_M_aNM… * Tatiana Tropina: no progress this week. Will simply add the text from the WS1 Final report. * Niels ten Oever: Hope to complete this document next week. 3. Discussion on: Concerns on possible impacts of Human Rights bylaw and FoI https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KcKGRJjuhKEzCh2AZ8PPR_MofOQFBN8CMuJqTG_… * Niels ten Oever: Given the sad news from Paul Twomey there has been no progress as expected. It would be great if we could keep adding concerns to this doc. * Tatiana Tropina: I have been going through teh records on the calls and chats to put them into the concerns doc but I am waiting for Paul because he was supposed to lead this one. but once Paul is back I will be ready with info :) 4. Discussion on: FoI draft document https://docs.google.com/document/d/1emqmzyB9_0vm6oKxhIWZ47L7lxcFKUBHVnkBYUO… * Niels ten Oever: Should the Framework be a core value? We should ask this of ICANN legal as to what the implications of being core value imply. does nayone have an issue with this - no. * Paul McGrady: Seems like we would want to ask the community that, rather than the lawyers. * Tatiana Tropina: So basically you want to ask ICANN legal about this as a starting point for our further discussion? * Kavous Arateh: views of lawyers should not be priveleged, everyone has input. * Anne Aikman-Scalese: have no issue with asking ICANN legal. Still unclear what a human rights policy vs policy development activities in ICANN. Would such a human rights policy imply that ICANN would have to make a human rights assessment of the propose registry before contracting to delegate a TLD? * Niels ten Oever: you should include these in the document. * Tatiana Tropina: ICANN legal added the term core value and we should ask them why they did so. * Niels ten Oever: any views on this? * Paul McGrady: Agree. I'd like to know why they made that unilateral change, but I don't think we need them to define "core" for us. * Farzaneh Badii: Let us find out who suggested using Core Value. * Daniel Appelman: I disagree with separating policy from operations. That would weaken any human rights commitment we recommend as a policy matter. Operations should be consistent with policy. * Niels Ten Oever: Will ask staff to pass on this question to ICANN legal - ACTION ITEM. Niels ten Oever: Question to ICANN legal: 'What is the rationale for the addition of 'core values' to the ICANN bylaws, and what are its legal and non-legal implications in your opinion, especially for the human rights bylaw? * Niels Ten Oever: What is meant by International Human Rights? I have pasted several refernces in the document which could help with this. * Tatiana Tropina: Uncertain that these instruments which are applicable to states are not applicable to ICANN. They can help shape of things for ICANN. * Kavous Arasteh: We should go through these and see which parts could apply to ICANN. * Tatiana Tropina: I think Kavouss misunderstood me Of course we should go through them I was clear about this. I am more than up for going through all the conventions. * Anne Aikman-Scalese: to what parts of ICANN should Human rights apply? It would certainly include awarding a TLD. We should identify policies and procedures and activities in ICANN which would be subject to HR. * Paul McGrady: starting with the principles and then look at how they apply is my approach - but we should end up in the same place. * Markus Kummer: The Board was very worried about unintended consequences. the baseline for ICANN will probably remain the Rugge principals and which ones apply and see where we can go from there. * Avri Doria: an explicit exhaustive list of operations? * Anne Aikman-Scalese: @AVri - no - just certain test examples - how do Human Rights principles apply to specific activities of ICANN - a practical application of principles in certain examples of ICANN's operations. * Tatiana Tropina: I think there has been some job done on this at the CCWP on human rights which might be interesting to look at, Niels, do you have anything to share on this? * Matthew Shears: I would turn that around Ann and suggest that we need to look at ICANN's operations and determine very realistically and cautiously what might apply or not. * Matthew Shears: this should not be about trying to see what fits - but rather what is appropriate - measured against other orgs and institutions perhaps * Farzaneh Badii: What we need to consider what is in ICANN's scope. Does this imply that there are going to be contractual provisions for Human Rights in registry agreements? I think the ICANN responsability stops at the string level (unclear what is meant by string level). * Kavous Arasteh: Seems chair is unfair in analysing comments by particpants. * Anne Aikman-Scalese: @Niels - I think the document you linked presupposes a negative impact on Human Rights in all cases. For example, it states that there is a "right to use all words and names in domain names". There is actually no such right and the entire scheme of trademark protection for the new gTLDs demonstrates the balancing of freedom of expression against the right of the artistic community to protect its artistic creations. This is Article 19 versus Article 27 UDHR balancing. ARticle 27 says: (2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author. * Niels ten Oever: We will discuss this on the list. We should go on to the issue of Applicable Law. Do we want to relay this to the Jurisdiction sub-group. * Kavouss Arasteh: Leave to the Jurisdiction sub-group., * Niels ten Oever: Will contact Jursidiction to advise we will wait on their results regarding this. * Anne Aikman-Scalese 2: ICANN Legal should be asked what Human Rights Law is applicable to ICANN operations. * Niels ten Oever: 2. 'What Human Rights Laws and/or Guidelines is or are applicable to which ICANN operations.' * Anne Aikman-Scalese 2: should this be tgwo separate questions. Which laws and then guidelines. * Daniel Appelman: Getting the views of legal counsel is ok; but our own work this week should be to think about all relevant ICANN operations and activities and then discuss what human rights are implicated by them. Via mailing list and comments in the document. 5. AOB

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Re: [Ws2-hr] When should ICANN uphold human rights?
by farzaneh badii Sept. 4, 2016

Sept. 4, 2016

This is the ws2 on human rights! On 4 Sep 2016 10:15 p.m., "Kavouss Arasteh" <kavouss.arasteh(a)gmail.com> wrote: Dear Mr.Rosenzweig, You referred to my name and obliged me to respond to you I am sorry to hear such language being used by you. I know you very well and aware that whatever I say you immediately and categorically disagree with it. You have done it during CCWG WS1. However, I do not mind if you take a hostile position against me. Having said that , this subgroup is not mandated propose to change to the Bylaws, this Groups is merely responsible for accountability of SOs/ACs . You can raise your questions in the Human Rights sub group. I disagree that this group dealing with accountabilities of SOs/ ACs gets involved in the issue of " Framework for Interpretation of Human Rights” Redards Arasteh 2016-09-04 21:43 GMT+02:00 Paul Rosenzweig <paul.rosenzweig@ redbranchconsulting.com>: > I accept Tijani’s amendment. My use of “only” was overstated – there will > be many subsidiary and subsequent questions. I think, however, that this > list identifies the basic two-part outline of the inquiry and that > Farzaneh’s questions both are important subsidiary questions to the general > question B) about “when.” > > > > As for Kavous’s suggestion that in discussion these the group is seeking > to “modify the Bylaws” which is outside its Terms of Reference that’s just > silly. This is a WG to talk about implementation of the new bylaw. I > imagine, however, that if the group thinks a bylaw modification is > necessary (unlikely, but plausible, I suppose) it can make that suggestion > and then the CCWG can agree or not, and propose to the Board who can, > likewise, agree or not and seek the agreement of the EC, or not. It’s a > standard tactic to try to limit discussion by saying something is out of > bounds – especially at the outset. > > > > Another such tactic is to say that a question is not understood – when, of > course, it is readily understandabe. For example, in response to > Farzaneh’s original questions I would support giving consideration to HR > generally in the formulation of contracts with registrars and registries > (IF we agree on what those HR are) but I would be reluctant to have ICANN > force enforcement. > > > > I say this not to discuss the specifics, but simply to make clear that > Farzaneh’s questions are perfectly understandable and clearly formulated. > > > > Paul > > > > Paul Rosenzweig > > paul.rosenzweig(a)redbranchconsulting.com > > O: +1 (202) 547-0660 > > M: +1 (202) 329-9650 > > VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739 > > www.redbranchconsulting.com > > My PGP Key: http://redbranchconsulting.com/who-we-are/public-pgp-key/ > > > > *From:* Tijani BEN JEMAA [mailto:tijani.benjemaa@topnet.tn] > *Sent:* Sunday, September 4, 2016 2:13 PM > *To:* Paul Rosenzweig <paul.rosenzweig(a)redbranchconsulting.com> > *Cc:* farzaneh badii <farzaneh.badii(a)gmail.com>; Kavouss Arasteh < > kavouss.arasteh(a)gmail.com>; ws2-hr(a)icann.org > > *Subject:* Re: [Ws2-hr] When should ICANN uphold human rights? > > > > Dear all, > > I agree with Paul that among the main questions for us to come up with a > Frame of Interpretation of the Human Rights in the ICANN mission would be: > > - What substance we see in the phrase human rights inside ICANN > Mission? > - When, if ever, ICANN should give that substance (whatever it > may be) effect? > > I can’t say they are the only meaningful questions since there will be > subsequent questions. But let’s start with the first question: I think that > to address it, we may begin by giving practical easy cases. > > The protection of the registrant data is one of the most obvious case of > human right that falls in the ICANN mission. This may also affect the ICANN > contract with registries/registrars > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ----------------- > > *Tijani BEN JEMAA* > > Executive Director > > Mediterranean Federation of Internet Associations (*FMAI*) > > Phone: +216 98 330 114 > > +216 52 385 114 > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > ----------------- > > > > > > Le 4 sept. 2016 à 18:24, Paul Rosenzweig <paul.rosenzweig@redbranchcons > ulting.com> a écrit : > > > > Dear Farzaneh > > > > Of course your questions are meaningful. Indeed, the ONLY two meaningful > questions in this discussion are a) what substance we see in the phrase > human rights? And b) When, if ever, ICANN should give that substance > (whatever it may be) effect? > > > > Your questions clearly go to the later of these two issues. Members of > the group may disagree on the answers we reach, but you’re asking questions > that have real meaning – whatever anyone may say to the contrary. > > > > Paul > > > > Paul Rosenzweig > > paul.rosenzweig(a)redbranchconsulting.com > > O: +1 (202) 547-0660 > > M: +1 (202) 329-9650 > > VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739 > > www.redbranchconsulting.com > > My PGP Key: http://redbranchconsulting.com/who-we-are/public-pgp-key/ > > > > *From:* ws2-hr-bounces(a)icann.org [mailto:ws2-hr-bounces@icann.org > <ws2-hr-bounces(a)icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *farzaneh badii > *Sent:* Sunday, September 4, 2016 11:56 AM > *To:* Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh(a)gmail.com> > *Cc:* ws2-hr(a)icann.org > *Subject:* Re: [Ws2-hr] When should ICANN uphold human rights? > > > > Calling something "not meaningful" is very easy. But it does not devalue > its merits, fortunately. Please provide a rationale for why the questions > are not meaningful. I don't have to consult with the co-chairs to discuss > the questions here. If the group feels that it is unnecessary to discuss > these questions they can simply not respond, if they feel we should > re-formulate them, then we can. > > > > The questions are to clarify what we mean by ICANN should not become a > content regulator. The discussions that can arise responding to the > question and sub-questions which I have posted can lead us towards a more > tangible understanding of what we mean when we say ICANN should not become > a content regulator and should not go out of its scope and mission when > upholding human rights. > > > > Best > > > > Farzaneh > > > > On 4 September 2016 at 17:34, Kavouss Arasteh <kavouss.arasteh(a)gmail.com> > wrote: > > Dear All, > > I do not understand the meaning and purpose of these questions. > > Perhaps the author of the questions could consult other two co chairs and > come up with meaningfull text. > > We can not send out these questions at all > > Reagrds > > Kavouss > > > > 2016-09-04 14:25 GMT+02:00 farzaneh badii <farzaneh.badii(a)gmail.com>: > > Hi all, > > > > Sorry for sending out the questions late. I wanted to provide a gist of > what we discussed during our call and then provide the questions but > unfortunately, we still do not have the recording. Below are some questions > for the group to discuss: > > > > > > Considering ICANN's scope and mission, when should ICANN uphold human > rights? > > > > - In its consideration to enter into contracts with registries and > registrars? (for example, when they are considering a new gTLD application) > > > > - During the contractual relationship with the registries and the > registrars by obligating the registries and registrars to enforce human > rights? > > > > > > > > > > > > Best > > > > > > -- > > Farzaneh > > > > _______________________________________________ > Ws2-hr mailing list > Ws2-hr(a)icann.org > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-hr > > > > > > > > -- > > Farzaneh > > _______________________________________________ > Ws2-hr mailing list > Ws2-hr(a)icann.org > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/ws2-hr > > >

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