Hi Shin,
The RIPE NCC will attend DCDF2025, and I am invited to participate in several sessions and workshops.
Indeed, this event presents the platform for discussions on WSIS+20 and digital cooperation among Arab countries. I can say that the Arab States’ position aligns with Saudi Arabia’s, which has positively contributed to the open consultation process.
BR//Chafic
Does anyone going to attend or watch remotely the UN ESCWA – Digital
Cooperation and Development Forum (DCDF2025) held in Anman, Jordan
which is stated as "relevant event" at DESA's page?
https://publicadministration.desa.un.org/wsis20/relevant%20events
Especially the following sub-forum: The fourth Arab High-Level Forum
on WSIS and 2030 Agenda; February 24 to 26, 2025.
Although no details have been announced, I imagine that place could
be a field to discuss WSIS+20 as well as digital cooperation among
the Arab countries including Saudi Arabia.
https://dcdf-2025.unescwa.org/index.html
https://indico.un.org/event/1013523/
Kind regards,
Shin Yamasaki
From: Wolfgang Kleinwächter via wsis20 <wsis20@icann.org>
Subject: [wsis20] Re: RCC Pushes for State-Led Internet Governance
Ahead of WSIS+20 Review
Date: 2025/2/7 21:57:12
> @ Saudi Arabia: We should also recognize the DCO, initiated by SA,
> with a strong woman Deemah AlYahya as Secretary General.
> https://dco.org/governance/
> w
>> Chafic Chaya via wsis20 <wsis20@icann.org> hat am 07.02.2025 13:41
>> CET geschrieben:
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> Thank you all for your contributions to this discussion. It is
>> evident from our exchanges that we are witnessing a significant
>> shift in the Internet governance landscape, particularly with
>> Saudi Arabia.
>>
>> I would like to emphasise that a key driver behind this change has
>> been the sustained engagement and capacity-building efforts led by
>> the technical community, including RIPE NCC, ICANN and ISOC. In
>> recent years, when topics such as “Internet Governance” or
>> “multistakeholderism” were often sidelined, RIPE NCC has been
>> working closely with the Saudi Arabia and has seen tangible
>> progress through collaborative initiatives.
>>
>> These include signing a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) with the
>> Saudi regulator, which has paved the way for a more open and
>> productive dialogue; organising RIPE NCC government roundtable
>> that foster direct engagement between the Arab governments and the
>> technical community; playing an integral role in the Saudi
>> National IPv6 Task Force, which has helped position Saudi Arabia
>> as the 5th globally in IPv6 adoption; organising MENOG in Riyadh,
>> a vital platform for regional dialogue and knowledge-sharing that
>> further solidifies multistakeholder engagement across the Middle
>> East, North Africa, and Gulf regions. Additionally, we co-
>> organised the first-ever joint session between the Saudi
>> government and the technical community (RIPE NCC) at IGF2024 in
>> Riyadh setting a new standard for inclusive dialogue.
>>
>> Furthermore, a coordination meeting has been agreed upon between
>> the Saudi regulator and the technical community ahead of WSIS+20.
>> This meeting will offer an excellent opportunity to share the
>> technical community position and support Saudi efforts for
>> greater multistakeholder engagement.
>>
>> I believe the lessons learned from our work with Saudi Arabia and
>> with other Arab countries, such as the United Arab Emirates, can
>> serve as a blueprint for engaging stakeholders in other regions.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Chafic Chaya
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 7 Feb 2025 at 00:19, Ashton-Hart, Nick via wsis20
>> <wsis20@icann.org <mailto:wsis20@icann.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Judith, I’m quite certain what happened on gender wasn’t
>> horse trading. Not in the least.
>>
>> But we digress from the purposes of this list I think.
>>
>> *Nick Ashton-Hart*
>> *APCO***
>> (m) +1 202 779 1072 <tel:+12027791072>
>>
>> Book time to meet with me here <https://outlook.office.com/
>> bookwithme/user/
>> ce911a0f9fa543dd9459b3a1392da25e@apcoworldwide.com?
>> anonymous&isanonymous=true>
>>
>> On 2/6/25, 3:12 PM, "Judith Hellerstein via wsis20"
>> <wsis20@icann.org <mailto:wsis20@icann.org>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> HI Nick,
>>
>> What happened in Plenipot was just horse trading. If you are
>> speaking about connectivity and the ITRs, but I get your
>> point. I do think that Saudi Arabia has changed its tone and
>> now supports the multi stakeholder approach or how they
>> interpret it. Yes, I was in Riyadh and yes it was successful
>> because the Saudis realized that if they want to take a lead
>> in AI and other areas they need to change their ways. They
>> need to garner support in different areas. Also do note, in
>> some countries the ITU representatives are often very
>> different than the IGF reps.
>>
>> I also think that the Saudi Government officials with their
>> guests and others who came to the conference in Riyadh and
>> experienced what true multi Stakeholder is had their eyes
>> opened and better understand it. They might also understand
>> what path they might want to take. So yes I think it helped
>> immensely that the IGF was in Riyadh.
>>
>> Saudi Arabia also will host within 10 years the World Cup and
>> others whom I spoke to there indicated that within a few years
>> the total ban against alcohol will also have to disappear.
>> They can read the writing on the walls and want to make sure
>> they are not left out.
>>
>> They are also very active in other institutions and working to
>> change the culture and the way of life as they see this must
>> happen for them to be successful.
>>
>> Just my two cents
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Judith
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> judith@jhellerstein.com <mailto:judith@jhellerstein.com>
>>
>> Skype ID:JudithHellerstein
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 6, 2025, at 2:56 PM, Ashton-Hart, Nick via wsis20
>> <wsis20@icann.org <mailto:wsis20@icann.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Speaking personally, when it comes to Saudi Arabia (and
>> other states in that region as well as others), I will
>> believe there is real change happening when I see a change
>> of positions on policy at key conferences like the ITU’s
>> agenda-setting meetings. Speeches are important, many
>> policy directions are signalled in speeches, but in the
>> end what matters is what positions states take on key
>> issues in negotiations themselves.
>>
>> Any of you who were at Plenipot in Romania on the final
>> days in particular knows exactly what I’m talking about.
>>
>> *Nick Ashton-Hart*
>> *APCO***
>> (m) +1 202 779 1072 <tel:+12027791072>
>>
>> Book time to meet with me here <https://
>> outlook.office.com/bookwithme/user/
>> ce911a0f9fa543dd9459b3a1392da25e@apcoworldwide.com?
>> anonymous&isanonymous=true>
>>
>> On 2/6/25, 1:43 PM, "Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond via wsis20"
>> <wsis20@icann.org <mailto:wsis20@icann.org>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear Fiona,
>>
>> it's the difference between having old school decision
>> makers who have no idea what they are speaking about and
>> new stakeholders selected for their intelligence and
>> knowledge of the topics.
>>
>> The world is changing.
>>
>> Abdullah Alswaha is one of these new leaders.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Alswaha <https://
>> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Alswaha>
>>
>> His speech at IGF was inspirational.
>> https://youtu.be/wGxF6BVp-AM?si=GHQRxtOQn-LYJ7VQ <https://
>> youtu.be/wGxF6BVp-AM?si=GHQRxtOQn-LYJ7VQ>
>>
>> A friend of mine worked with him at CISCO and he was
>> already an inspiring boss.
>>
>> So the message we are sending out is one thing, but there
>> also needs to be an intelligent ear at the other end of
>> the fibre.
>>
>> Kindest regards,
>>
>> Olivier
>>
>> On 06/02/2025 18:27, Fiona Alexander via wsis20 wrote:
>>
>> Hi to all
>>
>> Interesting discussion and thread. And while the
>> actions recommended to make sure that the facts get
>> out there and various negotiators are armed with them
>> seem wise, I personally was more struck by a
>> different contribution to the same meeting. That of
>> Saudi Arabia. I've attached for ease of finding.
>>
>> The RCC, presumably lead by Russia, contribution seems
>> in my experience to be largely consistent with where
>> Russia and that region has been on this set of issues
>> for the larger part of the past 20 years. So really
>> no surprise.
>>
>> The Saudi contribution is a different story to my
>> eye. A clear written statement of their support for
>> multistakeholder approaches. I don't recall ever
>> seeing this position from them at the ITU before. In
>> fact, they were firmly against it, at least in all the
>> negotiations I participated in during my time in
>> government.
>>
>> Would be curious to hear from others their thoughts on
>> how we got to this. I believe there has been quite a
>> sustained effort by the Internet technical community
>> in this region and perhaps there are some lessons for
>> all us on how we can actually demonstrate the utility
>> of multistakeholder approaches to those that still are
>> skeptical. Also could explain their effort and work
>> to host last year's IGF.
>>
>> Fiona
>>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> *From:* Pari Esfandiari via wsis20 <wsis20@icann.org>
>> <mailto:wsis20@icann.org>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 6, 2025 5:08 AM
>> *To:* wsis20@icann.org <mailto:wsis20@icann.org>
>> <wsis20@icann.org> <mailto:wsis20@icann.org>
>> *Subject:* [wsis20] Re: RCC Pushes for State-Led
>> Internet Governance Ahead of WSIS+20 Review
>>
>> *External Email:* Use caution with links and attachments.
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> Thank you for the thoughtful and engaging discussion
>> around my recent article on CircleID regarding the
>> RCC’s push for a state-led Internet governance mode
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://circleid.com/
>> posts/rcc-pushes-for-state-led-internet-governance-
>> ahead-of-wsis20-review__;!!IaT_gp1N!
>> 2b7n92Tb_yRE7JjkNFqCKq_G5ZqVLVbNmLJ6VlRnw4kkZip0aAaP-
>> ZS48c88lDYHYcnXUmi-4Ftvk28$>l. The diverse
>> perspectives shared here highlight the significance of
>> this issue and the need for continued vigilance in
>> safeguarding the multistakeholder model.
>>
>>
>> Addressing Key Points Raised:
>>
>> 1. *Armenia’s Alignment with RCC – Shifting Alliances?*
>>
>> * @Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, your observation
>> on Armenia’s stance is indeed intriguing,
>> considering its usual alignment with Western
>> digital policies. However, recent geopolitical
>> tensions and regional dependencies may have
>> influenced this decision. Whether Armenia
>> stands to lose or gain from this move will
>> depend on how other global actors respond.
>>
>> 2. *Hidden Agendas and Misleading Framing of Internet
>> Governance*
>>
>> * @Wolfgang Kleinwächter, your detailed analysis
>> of Section 3 of the RCC proposal is crucial.
>> While the call for an equitable, neutral, and
>> geopolitically immune governance system is
>> commendable, the assertion that the
>> multistakeholder model fails to meet these
>> requirements is misleading. ICANN’s structure,
>> particularly through the GAC, already embodies
>> sovereign equality and neutrality. The example
>> of ICANN’s refusal to remove Russian domain
>> names during the Ukraine conflict underscores
>> its resilience against political pressures.
>> Moving towards state-controlled governance
>> would, paradoxically, introduce more
>> geopolitical interference rather than
>> eliminate it.
>>
>> 3. *Misuse of the “Public Core” Concept*
>>
>> * @Joseph Lorenzo Hall and @Tatiana Tropina,
>> your point on the RCC’s misrepresentation of
>> the “public core” concept is well taken. The
>> original GCSC definition was carefully crafted
>> through a multistakeholder process to protect
>> essential Internet infrastructure, whereas the
>> RCC’s broader framing risks enabling greater
>> state intervention. As you rightly pointed
>> out, conflating the “public core” with
>> “critical resources” could open the door to
>> increased governmental control over
>> fundamental Internet operations, which would
>> be detrimental to the open and decentralized
>> nature of the Internet.
>>
>> 4. *The RCC Proposal’s Conflict with WSIS Principles*
>>
>> * @Dr. Jimson Olufuye, you highlight a
>> fundamental flaw in the RCC proposal—it
>> contradicts the very foundations of WSIS, the
>> Tunis Agenda, and the Global Digital Compact
>> (GDC), all of which emphasize multistakeholder
>> engagement. While the proposal may be “dead on
>> arrival” in some forums, it still serves as a
>> strategic tool for certain governments to
>> justify expanding their control over the
>> Internet. This is why continued advocacy and
>> engagement remain necessary.
>>
>> 5. *Diplomatic Engagement and Advocacy Strategy*
>>
>> * @Nick Ashton-Hart, @Israel Rosas, and @Remmy
>> Nweke, I fully agree that diplomatic
>> engagement is critical at this juncture. Many
>> diplomats dealing with WSIS+20 and broader
>> digital governance discussions may not have a
>> deep understanding of the multistakeholder
>> model’s nuances. The RCC narrative, if left
>> unchallenged, could appeal to those who
>> prioritize state sovereignty over openness.
>> Strengthening outreach efforts, capacity-
>> building initiatives, and direct engagement
>> with policymakers will be essential to
>> countering this influence.
>>
>> 6. *Potential ITU Involvement in IP Addressing and
>> Protocol Governance*
>>
>> * @Nick Ashton-Hart, your point about the
>> potential push to shift IP protocol governance
>> to the ITU is an alarming but not surprising
>> development. Given past efforts to exert
>> greater governmental control over core
>> Internet functions, vigilance is needed to
>> ensure that governance remains within the
>> multistakeholder ecosystem, where technical
>> bodies like the IETF and RIRs maintain their
>> crucial roles.
>>
>> 7. *The Issue of Undefined Stakeholder Roles*
>>
>> * @Mark W. Datysgeld and @Alejandro Pisanty, the
>> issue of fluid stakeholder identities is a
>> valid concern. While the multistakeholder
>> model is designed to be inclusive and
>> adaptable, the lack of clear stakeholder
>> categorization has been exploited by certain
>> actors to challenge its legitimacy. As
>> Alejandro notes, the original WSIS definitions
>> were already a compromise, and while we have
>> made progress in differentiating stakeholder
>> roles, ambiguity remains. Addressing this
>> issue transparently in WSIS+20 discussions
>> could help prevent its use as a pretext for
>> government overreach.
>>
>> 8. *Potential Impact on Network Neutrality and
>> Platform Regulation*
>>
>> * @Alejandro Pisanty, your warning about threats
>> to network neutrality and regulations like
>> Section 230 is well-founded. If these
>> principles are eroded in democratic contexts,
>> it will provide authoritarian governments with
>> further justification to impose stricter
>> controls on online content and access.
>> Ensuring that digital governance remains
>> rights-based and independent of political
>> agendas must be a key focus moving forward.
>>
>>
>> The Road Ahead
>>
>> The RCC’s proposal is not just a theoretical debate—it
>> is part of a broader geopolitical effort to shift
>> Internet governance towards a more state-controlled
>> model. While it may not succeed in its current form,
>> the underlying ideas will likely persist, making it
>> crucial for the Internet governance community to
>> remain proactive.
>>
>> As many of you pointed out, we must:
>>
>> * Continue engaging with diplomats and policymakers
>> who may not be fully aware of the implications of
>> state-led governance.
>> * Strengthen capacity-building efforts to educate
>> stakeholders on the benefits of multistakeholder
>> governance.
>> * Push back against misrepresentations of concepts
>> like the “public core” to prevent them from being
>> used as pretexts for increased governmental control.
>> * Reinforce the neutrality and resilience of
>> existing governance structures, particularly
>> within ICANN and technical organizations.
>> * Monitor and counteract attempts to shift key
>> Internet governance functions to intergovernmental
>> bodies like the ITU.
>>
>> I appreciate all your insights and contributions to
>> this discussion. Let’s continue this dialogue and work
>> collectively to uphold the principles of an open,
>> secure, and inclusive Internet.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> *Pari Esfandiari*
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2025 at 2:28 AM Alejandro Pisanty
>> <apisanty@gmail.com <mailto:apisanty@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Mark,
>>
>> good point re the definition of stakeholders. You
>> may know that I was in the WGIG (as a few others
>> in this list.) WGIG was the Working Group on
>> Internet Governance created by the first phase of
>> WSIS in 2003, charged with producing a report with
>> a definition of Internet Governance and some
>> proposals to move forward, for the second phase in
>> 2005. The definition of stakeholder groupings was
>> a major issue then and we settled into government,
>> business ("private sector" has different meanings
>> in the US and elsewhere), civil society and the
>> technical community. Unfortunately we couldn't get
>> the final documents to list the technical
>> community as a separate stakeholder, not the least
>> because at the same time it was recognized that
>> the people in the technical community may have
>> their jobs indistinctly in government (say,
>> research laboratories, computing, IT and
>> telecommunications departments in government,
>> standards organizations, even universities if they
>> are public), industry both large and small, and
>> organizations classified as civil society (their
>> techies among others.) Later on the IGF in
>> practice has always listed the technical community
>> separately. The differentiated presence of the
>> technical community is indispensable and it cuts
>> two ways - sometimes it has to say "no,, that
>> thing you are imagining is not technically
>> possible, or it is unreasonable, or it breaks the
>> Internet" and sometimes it says to other parties
>> "we can actually do better than you are thinking
>> and maybe already are" - and sometimes, very often
>> rather, we have to tell people, especiallly in
>> governments, "no, it doesn' work that way" and
>> enter long explanations.
>>
>> Now picking on the second part of your statement:
>> with fuzzy borders, we can say that one thing is
>> the definition of the stakeholder groupings, as
>> above, and another, complementary one, is the
>> assignment of specific individuals to stakeholder
>> groups at a given point in time. Also especially
>> in developing countries we do continue to find
>> that a small number of people fulfill many roles
>> at the same time and thus can be simultaneously
>> ascribed to more than one stakeholder group.
>> Someone working in business (or even owining one)
>> may come to Internet governance with that
>> knowledge but acting through an organization like
>> an NGO oriented to education or development or
>> community networks, and or sit on an advisory
>> committee to a telecoms or competition regulator.
>> We have made progress in the last 20 years towards
>> clearer roles and against conflicts of interest
>> but this fluidity remains and also is very valuable.
>>
>> We should convey this clearly to the skeptics and
>> also know that it is a facetious argument invoked
>> with ill intent while fully knowing the above.
>>
>> Yours,
>>
>> Alejandro Pisanty
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 5, 2025 at 7:53 PM Mark W. Datysgeld
>> via wsis20 <wsis20@icann.org
>> <mailto:wsis20@icann.org>> wrote:
>>
>> One idea presented by the document that cannot
>> just be waved away is that "stakeholder roles
>> remain undefined". They do. I understand
>> Pari's relevant answer to that point, but it
>> does not address the fact that stakeholder
>> identity is incredibly liquid. Take any set of
>> IGF applications and you are likely to quickly
>> find the same speaker submitted as 3 different
>> stakeholders in different applications.
>>
>> This is a subject that cannot be put aside in
>> the upcoming discussion and the High-Level
>> Event itself, because it is a weakness of our
>> multistakeholder models that can and will be
>> used against us by governments in their bid
>> for increased control.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> On 5 Feb 2025 07:03, Pari Esfandiari via
>> wsis20 wrote:
>>
>> This review of the RCC’s submission in the
>> lead-up to the WSIS+20 examines its call
>> for a state-led approach to Internet
>> governance and its implications for the
>> multistakeholder model. It explores how
>> the RCC frames its arguments around
>> digital sovereignty, interoperability, and
>> regulatory frameworks while assessing the
>> potential impact on global Internet
>> governance structures, innovation, and
>> access. Additionally, the article
>> considers the broader geopolitical context
>> of the submission and its alignment—or
>> divergence—with international efforts to
>> maintain an open, inclusive, and secure
>> digital environment.
>>
>> https://circleid.com/posts/rcc-pushes-for-
>> state-led-internet-governance-ahead-of-
>> wsis20-review <https://urldefense.com/v3/
>> __https://circleid.com/posts/rcc-pushes-
>> for-state-led-internet-governance-ahead-
>> of-wsis20-review__;!!IaT_gp1N!
>> 2b7n92Tb_yRE7JjkNFqCKq_G5ZqVLVbNmLJ6VlRnw4kkZip0aAaP-ZS48c88lDYHYcnXUmi-4Ftvk28$>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Pari
>>
>> --
>>
>> Pari Esfandiari
>>
>> President
>>
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>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
>> Facultad de Química UNAM
>> Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>> +525541444475
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>> 2b7n92Tb_yRE7JjkNFqCKq_G5ZqVLVbNmLJ6VlRnw4kkZip0aAaP-ZS48c88lDYHYcnXUmi-7emGT4Q$>
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>> www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty__;!!IaT_gp1N!
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>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
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>> 2b7n92Tb_yRE7JjkNFqCKq_G5ZqVLVbNmLJ6VlRnw4kkZip0aAaP-
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