Hi, In the cartoon, you are The Coyote and ICANN is the roadrunner? cheers, avri On 18-Jul-15 14:09, Kieren McCarthy wrote:
My thought on that statement is best summed up by this graphic... :)
On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 1:22 PM Avri Doria <avri@acm.org <mailto:avri@acm.org>> wrote:
Hi,
And what I am saying is that it isn't a mistake, just a job not yet completed.
avri
On 17-Jul-15 22:15, Kieren McCarthy wrote: > What I am saying Avri is that we should not keep making the same > mistake over and over again. > > And one of those mistakes is to continue to believe that a single > person can bring a decent level of accountability to ICANN. They > cannot. Especially when they are reliant on ICANN for doing their job > and getting paid. > > > > Kieren > > > On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Avri Doria <avri@acm.org <mailto:avri@acm.org> > <mailto:avri@acm.org <mailto:avri@acm.org>>> wrote: > > Hi, > > On 17-Jul-15 20:38, Kieren McCarthy wrote: > > > some personnel issues should remain confidential, > > > > I don't understand why people keep putting this strawman out > there. No > > one is suggesting, or indeed has ever suggested, that personnel > issues > > be included in a proper accountability mechanism. > > True. > > > > > > Why would a strengthened ombudsman not be a good fit for this > role? > > > > I'll give you three good reasons: > > > > 1. The Ombudsman was created in 2004. Despite numerous efforts > to make > > the role effective, it has never happened. Why keep making the same > > mistake? > > Previous failure is not a mistake. > I believe we can succeed at doing this. > > And the Ombudsman can get access to any information. It is uncertain > how much he can do with it at this point, but at least someone who is > trusted can look and can give testimony about the validity of > redactions. > > Sure I would like to see ICANN live of to ATRT obligations, take > on CSR > seriously, have reasonable RR and stronger independent reviews and > audits &c., but we should not give up the partial successes > because they > are not right yet. WS2 will focus on strengthening the ombudsman role > and I think we can do it. > > > > > 2. The Ombudsman is completely reliant on ICANN corporate. For > access > > to people and documents, for resources, for salary, for technical > > support, for logistical support, for an office, for a room at ICANN > > meetings, for everything except his own body. And his role and > what he > > can do is determined by ICANN's legal department in the rules that > > they wrote. The Ombudsman also signs a very strong confidentiality > > agreement with ICANN that effectively ties their hands on everything > > except illegal activity. See point 1. > > Ombudsman in general are paid for by the company they work for. And > they often still have strong independence. Some even have power > to fix > things. We should fix the aspects of the ombudsman support that > need to > be fixed, we should not give up. > > See response to point 1. > > > > > 3. An Ombudsman is a single person. And one completely reliant on > > ICANN. This provides an enormous degree of control by ICANN and very > > little freedom for the accountability role the Ombusdsman is > supposed > > to fulfill. There are numerous people able to testify that ICANN > > corporate has no hesitation in applying significant pressure on > > individuals if they act in a way that it deemed a potential threat. > > All of those people are however under confidentiality agreements > with > > ICANN. > > > > Actually we have an Ombudsman's office with 2 people in it. > > It either needs to be fixed or we need to walk away from ICANN. > Some of > us have done so and are probably making a good living picking on > ICANN, > and some of us are thinking of walking away just to make a living > (volunteering is a difficult vocation). But those who do stay > need to > keep trying to fix it for as long as they do stay. And new people > come > to the effort all the time, determined to succeed where we fail. > > For anyone who says ICANN never improves, I ask them to think back > to a > decade ago and compare. Problems there still are, but it is nowhere > near as bad as it once was. Could be a lot better, but also could be a > lot worse. > > > > > The only way to bring actual accountability to ICANN is to have > people > > that are not dependent on ICANN and are not muzzled by > confidentiality > > agreements asking the questions. > > True they are necessary. But they are only one part of the > story. They > need internal allies. > And it is my impression that though not as effective as he could have > been due to conditions you describe, the ombudsman has helped in many > cases. And does as much as possible to support the people who > need help. > > > And those people are... the 2,000 people that turn up to ICANN > > meetings. The community. > > Actually aren't most of them there to wheel and deal? > Only hundreds go to meetings dedicated to doing the policy stuff. > > And they need the support of a strong ombudsman office. > and a CSR officer, and ... > > That is what this process is all about. > > avri > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > _______________________________________________ > Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list > Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> > <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org>> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list > Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community
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