Dear all, I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup. Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups. Regards, Vinay On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4

Talk to you in a few hours

Mathieu

*De :* accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 *À :* CCWG-Accountability *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Good day all,

In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...>

*Proposed Agenda:*

1. Welcome, SOI

2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

5. AOB

6. Closing

*Adobe Connect: *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Brenda Brewer

MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

ICANN- Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reasons, and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that. We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel. I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective. Greg On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com> wrote:

Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd

Rudi Daniel *danielcharles consulting <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>*

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear all,

I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.

Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups.

Regards, Vinay

On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr> wrote:

...

Dear Colleagues,

Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4

Talk to you in a few hours

Mathieu

*De :* accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 *À :* CCWG-Accountability *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Good day all,

In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...>

*Proposed Agenda:*

1. Welcome, SOI

2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

5. AOB

6. Closing

*Adobe Connect: *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Brenda Brewer

MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

ICANN- Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

+1 David W. Maher Public Interest Registry Senior Vice-President - Law & Policy +1 312 375 4849 From: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of matthew shears Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 2:29 PM To: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com>; Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com> Cc: CCWG-Accountability <accountability-cross-community@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Completely agree with Greg. On 13/07/2016 19:58, Greg Shatan wrote: I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reasons, and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that. We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel. I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective. Greg On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd Rudi Daniel danielcharles consulting<http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/Dan...> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com<mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com>> wrote: Dear all, I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup. Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups. Regards, Vinay On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr<mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr>> wrote: [cid:image001.png@01D1DD18.350AAA20] Dear Colleagues, Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4 Talk to you in a few hours Mathieu De : accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>] De la part de MSSI Secretariat Envoyé : lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 À : CCWG-Accountability Objet : [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Good day all, In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw> - Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 - 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...> Proposed Agenda: 1. Welcome, SOI 2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission 3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 - next steps 4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion 5. AOB 6. Closing Adobe Connect: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ Thank you! With kind regards, Brenda Brewer MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant ICANN- Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community -- -------------- Matthew Shears Global Internet Policy and Human Rights Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT) + 44 771 2472987 ________________________________ [Avast logo]<https://www.avast.com/antivirus> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com<https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

Hi Avri,

I can't imagine we would agree with ICANN in house legal being our default. Not even sure I understand why it is being considered.

Hopefully it no longer is.

Which of the firms maps to each of the issues?

Before it was disbanded (although I'm not sure it ever was; one day we verbally learned our services were no longer needed but there was no on list discussion of the matter ) the EC of the legal sub-team assigned questions to the firms on a question by question basis taking into consideration the perceived expertise of each of the firms. I recall one session where we did so ending past midnight at the Istanbul F2F. I could perceive of questions in each of the subgroups that would map to either one of the firms or even to both (a few questions were sent to both firms). Cost control is an appropriate thing for us to consider. I can conceive of questions where ICANN corporate legal would be a resource we can use. It should not be the default, though, but rather the determination of those charged on the legal team with making the question assignments to assign to them as such. I would also strongly encourage a procedure by where the legal team could assign questions to Sidley or Adler or both and that assignment to Sidley and Adler combined not be the default either. One of the firms is less expensive than the other (those of us on the team that interviewed the firms were made aware of certain contractual matters; I don't recall what was confidential so will not disclose the specifics here) and certainly cost should be among the issues considered when choosing where to assign questions. The greater the flexibility given to the legal team to manage the flow of questions IMHO the greater the chance we'll get the needed advice at the best possible cost. Ed

avri

...

On 13-Jul-16 15:28, matthew shears wrote:

Completely agree with Greg.

...

On 13/07/2016 19:58, Greg Shatan wrote: I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reasons, and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that.

We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel.

I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.

Greg

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com <mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote:

Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd

Rudi Daniel /danielcharles consulting <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>/ * *

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com <mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear all,

I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.

Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups.

Regards, Vinay

On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr>> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4

Talk to you in a few hours

Mathieu

*De :*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>] *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 *À :* CCWG-Accountability *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Good day all,

In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...>

*Proposed Agenda:*

1. Welcome, SOI

2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

5. AOB

6. Closing

*Adobe Connect: *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Brenda Brewer

MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

--

-------------- Matthew Shears Global Internet Policy and Human Rights Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT) + 44 771 2472987

------------------------------------------------------------------------ Avast logo <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com <https://www.avast.com/antivirus>

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I really don’t think its useful to reopen this debate that we had at length at the start of the CCWG, -Jg From: <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com<mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>> Date: Wednesday 13 July 2016 at 22:15 To: Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>> Cc: CCWG-Accountability <accountability-cross-community@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Greg, ​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice. On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>> wrote: I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reason ​s​ and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that. We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel. I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective. Greg On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>> wrote: Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd Rudi Daniel danielcharles consulting<http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/Dan...> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com<mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com>> wrote: Dear all, I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup. Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups. Regards, Vinay On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr<mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr>> wrote: Dear Colleagues, Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4 Talk to you in a few hours Mathieu De : accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>] De la part de MSSI Secretariat Envoyé : lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 À : CCWG-Accountability Objet : [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Good day all, In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw> – Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...> Proposed Agenda: 1. Welcome, SOI 2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission 3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps 4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion 5. AOB 6. Closing Adobe Connect: https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ Thank you! With kind regards, Brenda Brewer MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant ICANN-Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community -- Sivasubramanian M<https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy>

Siva, The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, please ask them. I will briefly say the following: 1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally competent and competent in a specific area are two different things. 2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice is another thing entirely. 3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have answered your own question. Greg On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:

Greg,

​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com');>> wrote:

...

I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reason ​s​

...

and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that.

We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel.

I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.

Greg

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com');>> wrote:

...

Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd

Rudi Daniel *danielcharles consulting <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>*

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com');>> wrote:

...

Dear all,

I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.

Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups.

Regards, Vinay

On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr');>> wrote:

...

Dear Colleagues,

Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4

Talk to you in a few hours

Mathieu

*De :* accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');>] *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 *À :* CCWG-Accountability *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Good day all,

In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...>

*Proposed Agenda:*

1. Welcome, SOI

2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

5. AOB

6. Closing

*Adobe Connect: *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Brenda Brewer

MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

ICANN- Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

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_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

-- Sivasubramanian M <https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy>

Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:

Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.

CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option.

+ 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate.

Best,

Tanya

On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote:

...

Siva,

The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, please ask them.

I will briefly say the following:

1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally competent and competent in a specific area are two different things.

2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice is another thing entirely.

3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have answered your own question.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>> wrote:

Greg,

​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com');>> wrote:

I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reason ​s​

and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that.

We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel.

I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.

Greg

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com');>> wrote:

Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd

Rudi Daniel /danielcharles consulting <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>/ * *

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com');>> wrote:

Dear all,

I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.

Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups.

Regards, Vinay

On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr');>> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4

Talk to you in a few hours

Mathieu

*De :*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');>] *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 *À :* CCWG-Accountability *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Good day all,

In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...>

*Proposed Agenda:*

1. Welcome, SOI

2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

5. AOB

6. Closing

*Adobe Connect: *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/>

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Brenda Brewer

MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

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_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

-- Sivasubramanian M <https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy>

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

-- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital Article 19 www.article19.org PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9

It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals. Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms. This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice. Thanks, Robin

On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net> wrote:

Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James

On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:

...

Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.

CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option.

+ 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate.

Best,

Tanya

On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote:

...

Siva,

The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, please ask them.

I will briefly say the following:

1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally competent and competent in a specific area are two different things.

2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice is another thing entirely.

3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have answered your own question.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>> wrote:

Greg,

​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com');>> wrote:

I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reason ​s​

and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that.

We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel.

I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.

Greg

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com');>> wrote:

Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd

Rudi Daniel /danielcharles consulting <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>/ * *

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com');>> wrote:

Dear all,

I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.

Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups.

Regards, Vinay

On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr');>> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4

Talk to you in a few hours

Mathieu

*De :*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');>] *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 *À :* CCWG-Accountability *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Good day all,

In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...>

*Proposed Agenda:*

1. Welcome, SOI

2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

5. AOB

6. Closing

*Adobe Connect: *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/>

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Brenda Brewer

MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

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-- Sivasubramanian M <https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy>

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

-- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital

Article 19 www.article19.org

PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

+ 1 well said Robin. On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote:

Robin,

Agree 100%.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org <mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>> wrote:

It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals.

Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms.

This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice.

Thanks, Robin

> On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net <javascript:;>> wrote: > > Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James > > On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote: >> Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree. >> >> CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree >> that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option. >> >> + 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate. >> >> Best, >> >> Tanya >> >> >> On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote: >>> Siva, >>> >>> The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the >>> materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire >>> independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, >>> please ask them. >>> >>> I will briefly say the following: >>> >>> 1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally >>> competent and competent in a specific area are two different things. >>> >>> 2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to >>> ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice >>> is another thing entirely. >>> >>> 3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have >>> answered your own question. >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com <javascript:;> >>> <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com <javascript:;>>> wrote: >>> >>> Greg, >>> >>> ​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this >>> unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have >>> first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal >>> nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on >>> most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas >>> that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan >>> <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <javascript:;> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com <javascript:;>');>> wrote: >>> >>> I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that >>> advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the >>> "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for >>> good reason >>> ​s​ >>> >>> >>> >>> and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't >>> need to rehash that. >>> >>> We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to >>> CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from >>> an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely >>> antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its >>> independent counsel. >>> >>> I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, >>> i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the >>> ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I >>> strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain >>> Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a >>> tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the >>> way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting >>> that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside >>> the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, >>> Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident >>> that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have >>> the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working >>> methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective. >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel >>> <rudi.daniel@gmail.com <javascript:;> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com <javascript:;>');>> wrote: >>> >>> Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of >>> knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests >>> in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and >>> external, from start, We should be much more efficient >>> this time around. Each sub however will have their needs >>> and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups >>> and/or specific to a subgroup. >>> So, that suggests close relationship between budget >>> control and the former legal request team [reconfigured >>> and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests >>> across ws2 sub >>> groups as i see it. >>> What determines the initial choice inhouse/external >>> resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be >>> prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with >>> the flexible and necessary option of external sources by >>> consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may >>> be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion >>> from an external, because there may arise an instance >>> where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or >>> external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek >>> alternative advise elswhere. >>> rd >>> >>> >>> >>> Rudi Daniel >>> /danielcharles consulting >>> <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>/ >>> * >>> * >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari >>> <vinay.kesari@gmail.com <javascript:;> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com <javascript:;>');>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was >>> on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a >>> chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and >>> I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability >>> to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the >>> thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my >>> commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to >>> working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup. >>> >>> Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal >>> requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and >>> endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made >>> and the specific requirements of the different WS2 >>> subgroups. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Vinay >>> >>> >>> On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill >>> <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <javascript:;> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <javascript:;>');>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> >>> Attached is a short set of slides to support our >>> discussion on agenda item #4 >>> >>> >>> >>> Talk to you in a few hours >>> >>> Mathieu >>> >>> >>> >>> *De :*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:;> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:;>');> >>> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:;> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:;>');>] >>> *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat >>> *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 >>> *À :* CCWG-Accountability >>> *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT >>> Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC >>> >>> >>> >>> Good day all, >>> >>> In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability >>> WS2 Meeting #2 >>> <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, >>> 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter >>> here >>> <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...> >>> >>> >>> *Proposed Agenda:* >>> >>> 1. Welcome, SOI >>> >>> 2. >>> Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission >>> >>> 3. >>> Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps >>> >>> 4. >>> Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion >>> >>> 5. AOB >>> >>> 6. Closing >>> >>> >>> >>> *Adobe Connect: >>> *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ >>> <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you! >>> >>> >>> >>> With kind regards, >>> >>> Brenda Brewer >>> >>> MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant >>> >>> ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names >>> and Numbers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >>> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:;> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:;>');> >>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >>> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:;> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:;>');> >>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >>> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:;> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:;>');> >>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >>> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:;> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:;>');> >>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sivasubramanian M <https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >>> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:;> >>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:;> >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >> > > -- > Niels ten Oever > Head of Digital > > Article 19 > www.article19.org <http://www.article19.org> > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > _______________________________________________ > Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list > Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:;> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

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-- -------------- Matthew Shears Global Internet Policy and Human Rights Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT) + 44 771 2472987 --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question. That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist. I am obligated to report that the Registries Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future spending. I know we’re developing cost-control mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG. Holly’s question and the response about budgeting vis-à-vis ICANN’s outside counsel was instructive. Any and all outside counsel expenses will require certification. So, let me reiterate my view…the CCWG must have access to independent legal advice. We must ensure costs are controlled and resources are used efficiently. If that means selectively turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can and do support that, but not at the expense of our ability to seek independent advice. Regards, Keith From: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Phil Corwin Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM To: Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross Cc: Accountability Cross Community Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Access to independent legal advice for WS2 issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable Use your power, Empowered Community Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/Cell Twitter: @VlawDC "Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey From:mshears@cdt.org Sent:July 14, 2016 5:26 PM To:gregshatanipc@gmail.com; robin@ipjustice.org<mailto:robin@ipjustice.org> Cc:accountability-cross-community@icann.org Subject:Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC + 1 well said Robin. On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote: Robin, Agree 100%. Greg On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org<mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>> wrote: It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals. Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms. This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice. Thanks, Robin

On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net> wrote:

Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James

On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:

...

Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.

CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option.

+ 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate.

Best,

Tanya

On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote:

...

Siva,

The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, please ask them.

I will briefly say the following:

1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally competent and competent in a specific area are two different things.

2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice is another thing entirely.

3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have answered your own question.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>> wrote:

Greg,

​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com');>> wrote:

I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reason ​s​

and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that.

We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel.

I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.

Greg

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com');>> wrote:

Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd

Rudi Daniel /danielcharles consulting <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>/ * *

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com');>> wrote:

Dear all,

I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.

Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups.

Regards, Vinay

On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr');>> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4

Talk to you in a few hours

Mathieu

*De :*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');>] *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 *À :* CCWG-Accountability *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Good day all,

In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...>

*Proposed Agenda:*

1. Welcome, SOI

2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

5. AOB

6. Closing

*Adobe Connect: *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/>

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Brenda Brewer

MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers

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-- Sivasubramanian M <https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy>

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

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-- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital

Article 19 www.article19.org<http://www.article19.org>

PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community -- -------------- Matthew Shears Global Internet Policy and Human Rights Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT) + 44 771 2472987 ________________________________ [Avast logo]<https://www.avast.com/antivirus> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com<https://www.avast.com/antivirus> ________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> Version: 2016.0.7497 / Virus Database: 4613/12558 - Release Date: 07/04/16 Internal Virus Database is out of date.

As it was discussed during the call, we are presented with two options for allocation of requests. Legal Committee is in charge of allocating the requests in these options. During the call, there was more support for option 2. My understanding is we do not want to restrict ourselves to selecting on of these 2 options and perhaps a combination of the options will be acceptable. The question is, should we come up with option 3? and if so how? The 2 options are laid out in the slides on CCWG-Accountability Legal cost control mechanisms which Mathieu shared. On 15 July 2016 at 00:33, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net> wrote:

Agreed. But this brings the question: who selects when (and how) this scarce good will be used (to balance remaining effective, independent and limit costs).

On 07/14/2016 11:53 PM, Drazek, Keith wrote:

...

Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question.

That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist.

I am obligated to report that the Registries Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future spending. I know we’re developing cost-control mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG.

Holly’s question and the response about budgeting vis-à-vis ICANN’s outside counsel was instructive. Any and all outside counsel expenses will require certification.

So, let me reiterate my view…the CCWG must have access to independent legal advice. We must ensure costs are controlled and resources are used efficiently. If that means selectively turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can and do support that, but not at the expense of our ability to seek independent advice.

Regards, Keith

*From:*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil Corwin *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM *To:* Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross *Cc:* Accountability Cross Community *Subject:* Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Access to independent legal advice for WS2 issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable

Use your power, Empowered Community

Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/Cell

Twitter: @VlawDC

"Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey

*From:*mshears@cdt.org

*Sent:*July 14, 2016 5:26 PM

*To:*gregshatanipc@gmail.com; robin@ipjustice.org <mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>

*Cc:*accountability-cross-community@icann.org

*Subject:*Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

+ 1 well said Robin.

On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote:

Robin,

Agree 100%.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org <mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>> wrote:

It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals.

Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms.

This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice.

Thanks, Robin

> On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net> wrote: > > Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James > > On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote: >> Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree. >> >> CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree >> that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option. >> >> + 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate. >> >> Best, >> >> Tanya >> >> >> On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote: >>> Siva, >>> >>> The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the >>> materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire >>> independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, >>> please ask them. >>> >>> I will briefly say the following: >>> >>> 1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally >>> competent and competent in a specific area are two different things. >>> >>> 2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to >>> ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice >>> is another thing entirely. >>> >>> 3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have >>> answered your own question. >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M < isolatedn@gmail.com >>> <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> Greg, >>> >>> ​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this >>> unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have >>> first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal >>> nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on >>> most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas >>> that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan >>> <gregshatanipc@gmail.com >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com');>> wrote: >>> >>> I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that >>> advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the >>> "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for >>> good reason >>> ​s​ >>> >>> >>> >>> and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't >>> need to rehash that. >>> >>> We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to >>> CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from >>> an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely >>> antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its >>> independent counsel. >>> >>> I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, >>> i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the >>> ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I >>> strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain >>> Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a >>> tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the >>> way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting >>> that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside >>> the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, >>> Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident >>> that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have >>> the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working >>> methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective. >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel >>> <rudi.daniel@gmail.com >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com');>> wrote: >>> >>> Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of >>> knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests >>> in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and >>> external, from start, We should be much more efficient >>> this time around. Each sub however will have their needs >>> and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups >>> and/or specific to a subgroup. >>> So, that suggests close relationship between budget >>> control and the former legal request team [reconfigured >>> and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests >>> across ws2 sub >>> groups as i see it. >>> What determines the initial choice inhouse/external >>> resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be >>> prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with >>> the flexible and necessary option of external sources by >>> consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may >>> be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion >>> from an external, because there may arise an instance >>> where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or >>> external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek >>> alternative advise elswhere. >>> rd >>> >>> >>> >>> Rudi Daniel >>> /danielcharles consulting >>> < http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/Dan... / >>> * >>> * >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari >>> <vinay.kesari@gmail.com >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com ');>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was >>> on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a >>> chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and >>> I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability >>> to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the >>> thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my >>> commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to >>> working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup. >>> >>> Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal >>> requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and >>> endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made >>> and the specific requirements of the different WS2 >>> subgroups. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Vinay >>> >>> >>> On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill >>> <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr');>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> >>> Attached is a short set of slides to support our >>> discussion on agenda item #4 >>> >>> >>> >>> Talk to you in a few hours >>> >>> Mathieu >>> >>> >>> >>> *De :*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');> >>> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');>] >>> *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat >>> *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 >>> *À :* CCWG-Accountability >>> *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT >>> Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC >>> >>> >>> >>> Good day all, >>> >>> In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability >>> WS2 Meeting #2 >>> <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, >>> 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter >>> here >>> < http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...

>>> >>> >>> *Proposed Agenda:* >>> >>> 1. Welcome, SOI >>> >>> 2. >>> Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission >>> >>> 3. >>> Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps >>> >>> 4. >>> Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion >>> >>> 5. AOB >>> >>> 6. Closing >>> >>> >>> >>> *Adobe Connect: >>> * https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ >>> < https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you! >>> >>> >>> >>> With kind regards, >>> >>> Brenda Brewer >>> >>> MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant >>> >>> ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names >>> and Numbers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>

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On Jul 14, 2016, at 5:53 PM, Drazek, Keith <kdrazek@verisign.com> wrote:

Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question.

That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist.

Keith - That is my view as well - no concerns with using the most-cost effective approach in the normal course of business, so long as that does not preclude access to independent counsel when requested by the CCWG. /John Disclaimers: my views alone - Accountability CCWG individual participant

Agree with Keith. CCWG must preserve the use of independent legal advisors, but use this responsibly, and with an eye on controlling costs. Ultimately, it is gTLD registrants picking up the bill, and we need to ensure that this work is mindful of their interests. Thanks— J. From: <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Keith Drazek <kdrazek@verisign.com<mailto:kdrazek@verisign.com>> Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 16:53 To: Phil Corwin <psc@vlaw-dc.com<mailto:psc@vlaw-dc.com>>, Matthew Shears <mshears@cdt.org<mailto:mshears@cdt.org>>, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>>, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org<mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>> Cc: Accountability Cross Community <accountability-cross-community@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question. That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist. I am obligated to report that the Registries Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future spending. I know we’re developing cost-control mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG. Holly’s question and the response about budgeting vis-à-vis ICANN’s outside counsel was instructive. Any and all outside counsel expenses will require certification. So, let me reiterate my view…the CCWG must have access to independent legal advice. We must ensure costs are controlled and resources are used efficiently. If that means selectively turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can and do support that, but not at the expense of our ability to seek independent advice. Regards, Keith From: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Phil Corwin Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM To: Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross Cc: Accountability Cross Community Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Access to independent legal advice for WS2 issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable Use your power, Empowered Community Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/Cell Twitter: @VlawDC "Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey From:mshears@cdt.org<mailto:mshears@cdt.org> Sent:July 14, 2016 5:26 PM To:gregshatanipc@gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>; robin@ipjustice.org<mailto:robin@ipjustice.org> Cc:accountability-cross-community@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org> Subject:Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC + 1 well said Robin. On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote: Robin, Agree 100%. Greg On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org<mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>> wrote: It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals. Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms. This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice. Thanks, Robin

On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net<mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net>> wrote:

Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James

On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:

...

Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.

CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option.

+ 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate.

Best,

Tanya

On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote:

...

Siva,

The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, please ask them.

I will briefly say the following:

1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally competent and competent in a specific area are two different things.

2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice is another thing entirely.

3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have answered your own question.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com<mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com> <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com<mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>>> wrote:

Greg,

​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>');>> wrote:

I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reason ​s​

and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that.

We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel.

I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.

Greg

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>');>> wrote:

Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd

Rudi Daniel /danielcharles consulting <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>/ * *

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com<mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com<mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com>');>> wrote:

Dear all,

I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.

Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups.

Regards, Vinay

On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr<mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr<mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr>');>> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4

Talk to you in a few hours

Mathieu

*De :*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>');> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>');>] *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 *À :* CCWG-Accountability *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Good day all,

In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...>

*Proposed Agenda:*

1. Welcome, SOI

2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

5. AOB

6. Closing

*Adobe Connect: *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/>

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Brenda Brewer

MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers

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PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community -- -------------- Matthew Shears Global Internet Policy and Human Rights Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT) + 44 771 2472987 ________________________________ [Avast logo]<https://www.avast.com/antivirus> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com<https://www.avast.com/antivirus> ________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> Version: 2016.0.7497 / Virus Database: 4613/12558 - Release Date: 07/04/16 Internal Virus Database is out of date.

Dear All Yes ,this is exactly what I declared at the last call See Chat Kavousd Sent from my iPhone

On 15 Jul 2016, at 15:39, Shreedeep Rayamajhi <rayamajhishreedeep@gmail.com> wrote:

Agree with Keith

...

On 15 Jul 2016 6:04 pm, "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com> wrote: Agree with Keith.

CCWG must preserve the use of independent legal advisors, but use this responsibly, and with an eye on controlling costs. Ultimately, it is gTLD registrants picking up the bill, and we need to ensure that this work is mindful of their interests.

Thanks—

J.

From: <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Keith Drazek <kdrazek@verisign.com> Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 16:53 To: Phil Corwin <psc@vlaw-dc.com>, Matthew Shears <mshears@cdt.org>, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com>, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org> Cc: Accountability Cross Community <accountability-cross-community@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question.

That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist.

I am obligated to report that the Registries Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future spending. I know we’re developing cost-control mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG.

Holly’s question and the response about budgeting vis-à-vis ICANN’s outside counsel was instructive. Any and all outside counsel expenses will require certification.

So, let me reiterate my view…the CCWG must have access to independent legal advice. We must ensure costs are controlled and resources are used efficiently. If that means selectively turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can and do support that, but not at the expense of our ability to seek independent advice.

Regards, Keith

From: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Phil Corwin Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM To: Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross Cc: Accountability Cross Community Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Access to independent legal advice for WS2 issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable

Use your power, Empowered Community

Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/Cell

Twitter: @VlawDC

"Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey

From:mshears@cdt.org

Sent:July 14, 2016 5:26 PM

To:gregshatanipc@gmail.com; robin@ipjustice.org

Cc:accountability-cross-community@icann.org

Subject:Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

+ 1 well said Robin.

On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote:

Robin,

Agree 100%.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org> wrote:

It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals.

Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms.

This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice.

Thanks, Robin

...

On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net> wrote:

Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James

On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:

...

Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.

CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option.

+ 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate.

Best,

Tanya

On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote:

...

Siva,

The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, please ask them.

I will briefly say the following:

1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally competent and competent in a specific area are two different things.

2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice is another thing entirely.

3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have answered your own question.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>> wrote:

Greg,

​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com');>> wrote:

I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reason ​s​

and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that.

We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel.

I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.

Greg

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com');>> wrote:

Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd

Rudi Daniel /danielcharles consulting <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>/ * *

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com');>> wrote:

Dear all,

I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.

Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups.

Regards, Vinay

On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr');>> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4

Talk to you in a few hours

Mathieu

*De :*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');>] *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 *À :* CCWG-Accountability *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Good day all,

In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...>

*Proposed Agenda:*

1. Welcome, SOI

2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

5. AOB

6. Closing

*Adobe Connect: *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/>

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Brenda Brewer

MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers

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Hi - I don't think that a default approach is appropriate. I think the CCWG should make a determination as to whether outside counsel or ICANN legal is the appropriate route to go. As Keith suggests below, the CCWG should seek "input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist." Matthew On 15/07/2016 18:46, Seun Ojedeji wrote:

+1 on ensuring access to independent legal adviser whenever required by CCWG. This would imply referring to internal legal(staff) by default and then call for independent legal advice whenever the group sense there is need for clarification (or when the issues at hand is warranted).

Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos

On 15 Jul 2016 13:19, "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>> wrote:

Agree with Keith.

CCWG must preserve the use of independent legal advisors, but use this responsibly, and with an eye on controlling costs. Ultimately, it is gTLD registrants picking up the bill, and we need to ensure that this work is mindful of their interests.

Thanks—

J.

From: <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Keith Drazek <kdrazek@verisign.com <mailto:kdrazek@verisign.com>> Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 16:53 To: Phil Corwin <psc@vlaw-dc.com <mailto:psc@vlaw-dc.com>>, Matthew Shears <mshears@cdt.org <mailto:mshears@cdt.org>>, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>>, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org <mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>> Cc: Accountability Cross Community <accountability-cross-community@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question.

That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist.

I am obligated to report that the Registries Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future spending. I know we’re developing cost-control mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG.

Holly’s question and the response about budgeting vis-à-vis ICANN’s outside counsel was instructive. Any and all outside counsel expenses will require certification.

So, let me reiterate my view…the CCWG must have access to independent legal advice. We must ensure costs are controlled and resources are used efficiently. If that means selectively turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can and do support that, but not at the expense of our ability to seek independent advice.

Regards, Keith

*From:*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Phil Corwin *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM *To:* Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross *Cc:* Accountability Cross Community *Subject:* Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Access to independent legal advice for WS2 issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable

Use your power, Empowered Community

Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/Cell

Twitter: @VlawDC

"Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey

*From:*mshears@cdt.org <mailto:mshears@cdt.org>

*Sent:*July 14, 2016 5:26 PM

*To:*gregshatanipc@gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>; robin@ipjustice.org <mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>

*Cc:*accountability-cross-community@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org>

*Subject:*Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

+ 1 well said Robin.

On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote:

Robin,

Agree 100%.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org <mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>> wrote:

It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals.

Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms.

This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice.

Thanks, Robin

> On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net <mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net>> wrote: > > Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James > > On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote: >> Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree. >> >> CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree >> that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option. >> >> + 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate. >> >> Best, >> >> Tanya >> >> >> On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote: >>> Siva, >>> >>> The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the >>> materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire >>> independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, >>> please ask them. >>> >>> I will briefly say the following: >>> >>> 1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally >>> competent and competent in a specific area are two different things. >>> >>> 2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to >>> ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice >>> is another thing entirely. >>> >>> 3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have >>> answered your own question. >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com> >>> <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>>> wrote: >>> >>> Greg, >>> >>> ​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this >>> unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have >>> first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal >>> nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on >>> most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas >>> that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice. >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan >>> <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>');>> wrote: >>> >>> I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that >>> advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the >>> "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for >>> good reason >>> ​s​ >>> >>> >>> >>> and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't >>> need to rehash that. >>> >>> We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to >>> CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from >>> an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely >>> antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its >>> independent counsel. >>> >>> I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, >>> i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the >>> ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I >>> strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain >>> Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a >>> tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the >>> way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting >>> that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside >>> the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, >>> Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident >>> that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have >>> the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working >>> methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective. >>> >>> Greg >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel >>> <rudi.daniel@gmail.com <mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com <mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>');>> wrote: >>> >>> Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of >>> knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests >>> in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and >>> external, from start, We should be much more efficient >>> this time around. Each sub however will have their needs >>> and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups >>> and/or specific to a subgroup. >>> So, that suggests close relationship between budget >>> control and the former legal request team [reconfigured >>> and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests >>> across ws2 sub >>> groups as i see it. >>> What determines the initial choice inhouse/external >>> resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be >>> prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with >>> the flexible and necessary option of external sources by >>> consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may >>> be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion >>> from an external, because there may arise an instance >>> where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or >>> external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek >>> alternative advise elswhere. >>> rd >>> >>> >>> >>> Rudi Daniel >>> /danielcharles consulting >>> <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>/ >>> * >>> * >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari >>> <vinay.kesari@gmail.com <mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com <mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com>');>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was >>> on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a >>> chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and >>> I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability >>> to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the >>> thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my >>> commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to >>> working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup. >>> >>> Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal >>> requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and >>> endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made >>> and the specific requirements of the different WS2 >>> subgroups. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Vinay >>> >>> >>> On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill >>> <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr>');>> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Dear Colleagues, >>> >>> >>> >>> Attached is a short set of slides to support our >>> discussion on agenda item #4 >>> >>> >>> >>> Talk to you in a few hours >>> >>> Mathieu >>> >>> >>> >>> *De :*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>');> >>> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>');>] >>> *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat >>> *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 >>> *À :* CCWG-Accountability >>> *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT >>> Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC >>> >>> >>> >>> Good day all, >>> >>> In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability >>> WS2 Meeting #2 >>> <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, >>> 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter >>> here >>> <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...> >>> >>> >>> *Proposed Agenda:* >>> >>> 1. Welcome, SOI >>> >>> 2. >>> Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission >>> >>> 3. >>> Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps >>> >>> 4. >>> Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion >>> >>> 5. AOB >>> >>> 6. Closing >>> >>> >>> >>> *Adobe Connect: >>> *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ >>> <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/> >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you! >>> >>> >>> >>> With kind regards, >>> >>> Brenda Brewer >>> >>> MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant >>> >>> ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names >>> and Numbers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >>> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org>');> >>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >>> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org>');> >>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >>> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org>');> >>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >>> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> >>> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org>');> >>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sivasubramanian M <https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >>> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> >>> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >> > > -- > Niels ten Oever > Head of Digital > > Article 19 > www.article19.org <http://www.article19.org> > > PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 > 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 > _______________________________________________ > Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list > Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

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No. Using the independent legal advisers *responsibly* does not mean that we have to have a default approach. I wonder what the next steps would be on this issue. Perhaps co-chairs can help us on this ? Are we going to have a call and discuss this and come up with a solution? On 15 July 2016 at 19:46, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> wrote:

+1 on ensuring access to independent legal adviser whenever required by CCWG. This would imply referring to internal legal(staff) by default and then call for independent legal advice whenever the group sense there is need for clarification (or when the issues at hand is warranted).

Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos

On 15 Jul 2016 13:19, "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com> wrote:

...

Agree with Keith.

CCWG must preserve the use of independent legal advisors, but use this responsibly, and with an eye on controlling costs. Ultimately, it is gTLD registrants picking up the bill, and we need to ensure that this work is mindful of their interests.

Thanks—

J.

From: <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Keith Drazek <kdrazek@verisign.com> Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 16:53 To: Phil Corwin <psc@vlaw-dc.com>, Matthew Shears <mshears@cdt.org>, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com>, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org> Cc: Accountability Cross Community < accountability-cross-community@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question.

That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist.

I am obligated to report that the Registries Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future spending. I know we’re developing cost-control mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG.

Holly’s question and the response about budgeting vis-à-vis ICANN’s outside counsel was instructive. Any and all outside counsel expenses will require certification.

So, let me reiterate my view…the CCWG must have access to independent legal advice. We must ensure costs are controlled and resources are used efficiently. If that means selectively turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can and do support that, but not at the expense of our ability to seek independent advice.

Regards, Keith

*From:* accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [ mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Corwin *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM *To:* Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross *Cc:* Accountability Cross Community *Subject:* Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Access to independent legal advice for WS2 issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable

Use your power, Empowered Community

Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/Cell

Twitter: @VlawDC

"Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey

*From:*mshears@cdt.org

*Sent:*July 14, 2016 5:26 PM

*To:*gregshatanipc@gmail.com; robin@ipjustice.org

*Cc:*accountability-cross-community@icann.org

*Subject:*Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

+ 1 well said Robin.

On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote:

Robin,

Agree 100%.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org> wrote:

It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals.

Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms.

This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice.

Thanks, Robin

...

On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net> wrote:

Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James

On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:

...

Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.

CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option.

+ 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate.

Best,

Tanya

On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote:

...

Siva,

The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, please ask them.

I will briefly say the following:

1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally competent and competent in a specific area are two different things.

2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice is another thing entirely.

3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have answered your own question.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>> wrote:

Greg,

​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com');>> wrote:

I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reason ​s​

and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that.

We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel.

I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.

Greg

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com');>> wrote:

Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd

Rudi Daniel /danielcharles consulting < http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/Dan... / * *

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com');>> wrote:

Dear all,

I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.

Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups.

Regards, Vinay

On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr ');>> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4

Talk to you in a few hours

Mathieu

*De :* accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');> [mailto: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');>] *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 *À :* CCWG-Accountability *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Good day all,

In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here < http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...

...

...

*Proposed Agenda:*

1. Welcome, SOI

2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

5. AOB

6. Closing

*Adobe Connect: *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/>

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Brenda Brewer

MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','

Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');>

...

https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

...

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https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

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-- Sivasubramanian M <

https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy>

...

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-- Farzaneh

Agreed. CCWG should have access to independent outside counsel when needed but should exercise that option with fiscal restraint. Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/Cell Twitter: @VlawDC "Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey From:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com Sent:July 15, 2016 2:15 PM To:farzaneh.badii@gmail.com Cc:accountability-cross-community@icann.org Subject:Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Hello, By default means always considering use of ICANN legal staff first before going independent. I don't think this should require a dialout as I think we all agree that CCWG should have access to independent legal whenever required. Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos On 15 Jul 2016 19:00, "farzaneh badii" <farzaneh.badii@gmail.com<mailto:farzaneh.badii@gmail.com>> wrote: No. Using the independent legal advisers responsibly does not mean that we have to have a default approach. I wonder what the next steps would be on this issue. Perhaps co-chairs can help us on this ? Are we going to have a call and discuss this and come up with a solution? On 15 July 2016 at 19:46, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com<mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com>> wrote: +1 on ensuring access to independent legal adviser whenever required by CCWG. This would imply referring to internal legal(staff) by default and then call for independent legal advice whenever the group sense there is need for clarification (or when the issues at hand is warranted). Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos On 15 Jul 2016 13:19, "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>> wrote: Agree with Keith. CCWG must preserve the use of independent legal advisors, but use this responsibly, and with an eye on controlling costs. Ultimately, it is gTLD registrants picking up the bill, and we need to ensure that this work is mindful of their interests. Thanks— J. From: <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>> on behalf of Keith Drazek <kdrazek@verisign.com<mailto:kdrazek@verisign.com>> Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 16:53 To: Phil Corwin <psc@vlaw-dc.com<mailto:psc@vlaw-dc.com>>, Matthew Shears <mshears@cdt.org<mailto:mshears@cdt.org>>, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>>, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org<mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>> Cc: Accountability Cross Community <accountability-cross-community@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question. That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist. I am obligated to report that the Registries Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future spending. I know we’re developing cost-control mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG. Holly’s question and the response about budgeting vis-à-vis ICANN’s outside counsel was instructive. Any and all outside counsel expenses will require certification. So, let me reiterate my view…the CCWG must have access to independent legal advice. We must ensure costs are controlled and resources are used efficiently. If that means selectively turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can and do support that, but not at the expense of our ability to seek independent advice. Regards, Keith From: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Phil Corwin Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM To: Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross Cc: Accountability Cross Community Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Access to independent legal advice for WS2 issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable Use your power, Empowered Community Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/Cell Twitter: @VlawDC "Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey From:mshears@cdt.org<mailto:mshears@cdt.org> Sent:July 14, 2016 5:26 PM To:gregshatanipc@gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>; robin@ipjustice.org<mailto:robin@ipjustice.org> Cc:accountability-cross-community@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org> Subject:Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC + 1 well said Robin. On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote: Robin, Agree 100%. Greg On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org<mailto:robin@ipjustice.org>> wrote: It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals. Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms. This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice. Thanks, Robin

On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net<mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net>> wrote:

Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James

On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:

...

Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.

CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option.

+ 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate.

Best,

Tanya

On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote:

...

Siva,

The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, please ask them.

I will briefly say the following:

1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally competent and competent in a specific area are two different things.

2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice is another thing entirely.

3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have answered your own question.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com<mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com> <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com<mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>>> wrote:

Greg,

​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com<mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com>');>> wrote:

I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reason ​s​

and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that.

We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel.

I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.

Greg

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com<mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com>');>> wrote:

Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd

Rudi Daniel /danielcharles consulting <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>/ * *

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com<mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com<mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com>');>> wrote:

Dear all,

I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.

Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups.

Regards, Vinay

On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr<mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr<mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr>');>> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4

Talk to you in a few hours

Mathieu

*De :*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>');> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org<mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>');>] *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 *À :* CCWG-Accountability *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Good day all,

In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...>

*Proposed Agenda:*

1. Welcome, SOI

2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

5. AOB

6. Closing

*Adobe Connect: *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/>

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Brenda Brewer

MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org>');> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

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-- Sivasubramanian M <https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy>

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PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 636D 68E9 _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community -- -------------- Matthew Shears Global Internet Policy and Human Rights Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT) + 44 771 2472987<tel:%2B%2044%20771%202472987> ________________________________ [Avast logo]<https://www.avast.com/antivirus> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com<https://www.avast.com/antivirus> ________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> Version: 2016.0.7497 / Virus Database: 4613/12558 - Release Date: 07/04/16 Internal Virus Database is out of date. _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community _______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org<mailto:Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community -- Farzaneh ________________________________ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com<http://www.avg.com> Version: 2016.0.7497 / Virus Database: 4613/12558 - Release Date: 07/04/16 Internal Virus Database is out of date.

you said before : "This would imply referring to internal legal(staff) by default and then call for independent legal advice whenever the group sense there is need for clarification (or when the issues at hand is warranted)." No, they should not first refer to internal legal staff then call for independent advice. I don't think we should use "defualt" approach in any case. we should have all the options on the table and consider the expenses when using them. What is being said here is in the slides anyway. we have to just pick one approach or come up with another one. On 15 July 2016 at 20:14, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello,

By default means always considering use of ICANN legal staff first before going independent. I don't think this should require a dialout as I think we all agree that CCWG should have access to independent legal whenever required.

Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos

On 15 Jul 2016 19:00, "farzaneh badii" <farzaneh.badii@gmail.com> wrote:

...

No. Using the independent legal advisers *responsibly* does not mean that we have to have a default approach.

I wonder what the next steps would be on this issue. Perhaps co-chairs can help us on this ? Are we going to have a call and discuss this and come up with a solution?

On 15 July 2016 at 19:46, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> wrote:

...

+1 on ensuring access to independent legal adviser whenever required by CCWG. This would imply referring to internal legal(staff) by default and then call for independent legal advice whenever the group sense there is need for clarification (or when the issues at hand is warranted).

Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos

On 15 Jul 2016 13:19, "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com> wrote:

...

Agree with Keith.

CCWG must preserve the use of independent legal advisors, but use this responsibly, and with an eye on controlling costs. Ultimately, it is gTLD registrants picking up the bill, and we need to ensure that this work is mindful of their interests.

Thanks—

J.

From: <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Keith Drazek <kdrazek@verisign.com> Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 16:53 To: Phil Corwin <psc@vlaw-dc.com>, Matthew Shears <mshears@cdt.org>, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com>, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org

...

Cc: Accountability Cross Community < accountability-cross-community@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question.

That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist.

I am obligated to report that the Registries Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future spending. I know we’re developing cost-control mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG.

Holly’s question and the response about budgeting vis-à-vis ICANN’s outside counsel was instructive. Any and all outside counsel expenses will require certification.

So, let me reiterate my view…the CCWG must have access to independent legal advice. We must ensure costs are controlled and resources are used efficiently. If that means selectively turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can and do support that, but not at the expense of our ability to seek independent advice.

Regards, Keith

*From:* accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [ mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Corwin *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM *To:* Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross *Cc:* Accountability Cross Community *Subject:* Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Access to independent legal advice for WS2 issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable

Use your power, Empowered Community

Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/Cell

Twitter: @VlawDC

"Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey

*From:*mshears@cdt.org

*Sent:*July 14, 2016 5:26 PM

*To:*gregshatanipc@gmail.com; robin@ipjustice.org

*Cc:*accountability-cross-community@icann.org

*Subject:*Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

+ 1 well said Robin.

On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote:

Robin,

Agree 100%.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org> wrote:

It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals.

Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms.

This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice.

Thanks, Robin

...

On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net> wrote:

Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James

On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:

...

Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.

CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option.

+ 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate.

Best,

Tanya

On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote: > Siva, > > The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the > materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire > independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, > please ask them. > > I will briefly say the following: > > 1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally > competent and competent in a specific area are two different things. > > 2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to > ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice > is another thing entirely. > > 3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have > answered your own question. > > Greg > > On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com > <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>> wrote: > > Greg, > > ​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this > unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have > first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal > nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on > most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas > that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice. > > > On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan > <gregshatanipc@gmail.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com');>> wrote: > > I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that > advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the > "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for > good reason > ​s​ > > > > and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't > need to rehash that. > > We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to > CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from > an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely > antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its > independent counsel. > > I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, > i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the > ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I > strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain > Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a > tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the > way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting > that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside > the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, > Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident > that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have > the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working > methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective. > > Greg > > On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel > <rudi.daniel@gmail.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com');>> wrote: > > Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of > knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests > in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and > external, from start, We should be much more efficient > this time around. Each sub however will have their needs > and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups > and/or specific to a subgroup. > So, that suggests close relationship between budget > control and the former legal request team [reconfigured > and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests > across ws2 sub > groups as i see it. > What determines the initial choice inhouse/external > resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be > prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with > the flexible and necessary option of external sources by > consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may > be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion > from an external, because there may arise an instance > where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or > external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek > alternative advise elswhere. > rd > > > > Rudi Daniel > /danielcharles consulting > < http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/Dan... / > * > * > > > On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari > <vinay.kesari@gmail.com > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com ');>> > wrote: > > Dear all, > > I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was > on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a > chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and > I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability > to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the > thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my > commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to > working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup. > > Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal > requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and > endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made > and the specific requirements of the different WS2 > subgroups. > > Regards, > Vinay > > > On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill > <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr ');>> > wrote: > > Dear Colleagues, > > > > Attached is a short set of slides to support our > discussion on agenda item #4 > > > > Talk to you in a few hours > > Mathieu > > > > *De :* accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');> > [mailto: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');>] > *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat > *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 > *À :* CCWG-Accountability > *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT > Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC > > > > Good day all, > > In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability > WS2 Meeting #2 > <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, > 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter > here > < http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...

...

> > > *Proposed Agenda:* > > 1. Welcome, SOI > > 2. > Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission > > 3. > Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps > > 4. > Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion > > 5. AOB > > 6. Closing > > > > *Adobe Connect: > *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ > <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/> > > > > Thank you! > > > > With kind regards, > > Brenda Brewer > > MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant > > ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names > and Numbers > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list > Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community > > > > _______________________________________________ > Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list > Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community > > > > _______________________________________________ > Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list > Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community > > > > _______________________________________________ > Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list > Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community > > > > > -- > Sivasubramanian M < https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy> > > > > _______________________________________________ > Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list > Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

_______________________________________________ Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community

-- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital

Article 19 www.article19.org

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_______________________________________________

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--------------

Matthew Shears

Global Internet Policy and Human Rights

Center for Democracy & Technology (CDT)

+ 44 771 2472987

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-- Farzaneh

-- Farzaneh

​The need and choice will vary by situation. Abstractly-defined "defaults" are worthless and counterproductive. If we need some information or background on ICANN-specific matters, we have received that from, and would continue to get that from, ICANN legal. When it comes to advice, it's most likely a different matter. Advice is given in the context of an attorney-client relationship where the attorney considers the position, interests and goals of their client and acts in​ accordance with those and their duty to that client. Advice and interpretation will vary depending on who your client is and what their concerns and desired outcomes are. In these cases, I think (without making it a default) we are much more likely to turn to our independent outside counsel. Indeed, I'm hard-pressed to think of situations in which we wouldn't. Drafting documents is a third situation, and the "back-and-forth" method used on the legal documents to date is probably the only sensible way to deal with that (no matter who drafts first). That said, I'm all in favor of fiscal restraint. There are a number of ways we can make our use of counsel cost-effective without turning to the counsel to the corporation we are trying to hold accountable. I'm quite certain that our counsel at Sidley and Adler have a number of ideas about how we can contain costs, especially after having worked with us for so long. We should invite them to provide written and oral suggestions on that subject, as soon as possible. Finally, if anyone has forgotten why we strongly felt the need for independent counsel at the beginning of this journey, please go back and read the materials from that time. If you disagreed then, and disagreed now, just say so, but let's not rehash. If someone who thought we needed independent counsel then thinks the circumstances have so drastically changed that we no longer need independent counsel, that might be an interesting point for discussion. The rest of this is just going around in circles.... Greg On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com> wrote:

There would seem to be an issue with "default" is there any substantive difference if we consider independent legal council "default" with the availability of icann inhouse legal services to compliment . That would also suggest the need for fiscal restraint rd

Rudi Daniel *danielcharles consulting <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>*

On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hello,

By default means always considering use of ICANN legal staff first before going independent. I don't think this should require a dialout as I think we all agree that CCWG should have access to independent legal whenever required.

Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos

On 15 Jul 2016 19:00, "farzaneh badii" <farzaneh.badii@gmail.com> wrote:

...

No. Using the independent legal advisers *responsibly* does not mean that we have to have a default approach.

I wonder what the next steps would be on this issue. Perhaps co-chairs can help us on this ? Are we going to have a call and discuss this and come up with a solution?

On 15 July 2016 at 19:46, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> wrote:

...

+1 on ensuring access to independent legal adviser whenever required by CCWG. This would imply referring to internal legal(staff) by default and then call for independent legal advice whenever the group sense there is need for clarification (or when the issues at hand is warranted).

Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos

On 15 Jul 2016 13:19, "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com> wrote:

...

Agree with Keith.

CCWG must preserve the use of independent legal advisors, but use this responsibly, and with an eye on controlling costs. Ultimately, it is gTLD registrants picking up the bill, and we need to ensure that this work is mindful of their interests.

Thanks—

J.

From: <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Keith Drazek <kdrazek@verisign.com> Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 16:53 To: Phil Corwin <psc@vlaw-dc.com>, Matthew Shears <mshears@cdt.org>, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com>, Robin Gross < robin@ipjustice.org> Cc: Accountability Cross Community < accountability-cross-community@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question.

That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist.

I am obligated to report that the Registries Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future spending. I know we’re developing cost-control mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG.

Holly’s question and the response about budgeting vis-à-vis ICANN’s outside counsel was instructive. Any and all outside counsel expenses will require certification.

So, let me reiterate my view…the CCWG must have access to independent legal advice. We must ensure costs are controlled and resources are used efficiently. If that means selectively turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can and do support that, but not at the expense of our ability to seek independent advice.

Regards, Keith

*From:* accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [ mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org>] *On Behalf Of *Phil Corwin *Sent:* Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM *To:* Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross *Cc:* Accountability Cross Community *Subject:* Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Access to independent legal advice for WS2 issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable

Use your power, Empowered Community

Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/Cell

Twitter: @VlawDC

"Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey

*From:*mshears@cdt.org

*Sent:*July 14, 2016 5:26 PM

*To:*gregshatanipc@gmail.com; robin@ipjustice.org

*Cc:*accountability-cross-community@icann.org

*Subject:*Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

+ 1 well said Robin.

On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote:

Robin,

Agree 100%.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org> wrote:

It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals.

Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms.

This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice.

Thanks, Robin

...

On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever < lists@nielstenoever.net> wrote:

Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James

On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote: > Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree. > > CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree > that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option. > > + 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate. > > Best, > > Tanya > > > On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote: >> Siva, >> >> The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the >> materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire >> independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, >> please ask them. >> >> I will briefly say the following: >> >> 1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally >> competent and competent in a specific area are two different things. >> >> 2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to >> ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice >> is another thing entirely. >> >> 3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have >> answered your own question. >> >> Greg >> >> On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M < isolatedn@gmail.com >> <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>> wrote: >> >> Greg, >> >> ​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this >> unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have >> first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal >> nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on >> most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas >> that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice. >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan >> <gregshatanipc@gmail.com >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com');>> wrote: >> >> I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that >> advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the >> "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for >> good reason >> ​s​ >> >> >> >> and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't >> need to rehash that. >> >> We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to >> CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from >> an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely >> antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its >> independent counsel. >> >> I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, >> i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the >> ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I >> strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain >> Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a >> tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the >> way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting >> that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside >> the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, >> Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident >> that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have >> the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working >> methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective. >> >> Greg >> >> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel >> <rudi.daniel@gmail.com >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com');>> wrote: >> >> Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of >> knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests >> in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and >> external, from start, We should be much more efficient >> this time around. Each sub however will have their needs >> and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups >> and/or specific to a subgroup. >> So, that suggests close relationship between budget >> control and the former legal request team [reconfigured >> and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests >> across ws2 sub >> groups as i see it. >> What determines the initial choice inhouse/external >> resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be >> prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with >> the flexible and necessary option of external sources by >> consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may >> be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion >> from an external, because there may arise an instance >> where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or >> external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek >> alternative advise elswhere. >> rd >> >> >> >> Rudi Daniel >> /danielcharles consulting >> < http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/Dan... / >> * >> * >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari >> <vinay.kesari@gmail.com >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com ');>> >> wrote: >> >> Dear all, >> >> I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was >> on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a >> chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and >> I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability >> to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the >> thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my >> commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to >> working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup. >> >> Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal >> requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and >> endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made >> and the specific requirements of the different WS2 >> subgroups. >> >> Regards, >> Vinay >> >> >> On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill >> <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' mathieu.weill@afnic.fr');>> >> wrote: >> >> Dear Colleagues, >> >> >> >> Attached is a short set of slides to support our >> discussion on agenda item #4 >> >> >> >> Talk to you in a few hours >> >> Mathieu >> >> >> >> *De :* accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');> >> [mailto: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');>] >> *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat >> *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 >> *À :* CCWG-Accountability >> *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT >> Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC >> >> >> >> Good day all, >> >> In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability >> WS2 Meeting #2 >> <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, >> 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter >> here >> < http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...

>> >> >> *Proposed Agenda:* >> >> 1. Welcome, SOI >> >> 2. >> Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission >> >> 3. >> Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps >> >> 4. >> Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion >> >> 5. AOB >> >> 6. Closing >> >> >> >> *Adobe Connect: >> *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ >> <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/

>> >> >> >> Thank you! >> >> >> >> With kind regards, >> >> Brenda Brewer >> >> MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant >> >> ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names >> and Numbers >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml',' Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org');> >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Sivasubramanian M < https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list >> Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org >> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community > > > > _______________________________________________ > Accountability-Cross-Community mailing list > Accountability-Cross-Community@icann.org > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/accountability-cross-community >

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Amen! Paul Rosenzweig <mailto:paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com> paul.rosenzweig@redbranchconsulting.com O: +1 (202) 547-0660 M: +1 (202) 329-9650 VOIP: +1 (202) 738-1739 <http://www.redbranchconsulting.com/> www.redbranchconsulting.com My PGP Key: <http://redbranchconsulting.com/who-we-are/public-pgp-key/> http://redbranchconsulting.com/who-we-are/public-pgp-key/ From: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Greg Shatan Sent: Friday, July 15, 2016 3:17 PM To: Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com> Cc: Accountability Cross Community <accountability-cross-community@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC ​The need and choice will vary by situation. Abstractly-defined "defaults" are worthless and counterproductive. If we need some information or background on ICANN-specific matters, we have received that from, and would continue to get that from, ICANN legal. When it comes to advice, it's most likely a different matter. Advice is given in the context of an attorney-client relationship where the attorney considers the position, interests and goals of their client and acts in​ accordance with those and their duty to that client. Advice and interpretation will vary depending on who your client is and what their concerns and desired outcomes are. In these cases, I think (without making it a default) we are much more likely to turn to our independent outside counsel. Indeed, I'm hard-pressed to think of situations in which we wouldn't. Drafting documents is a third situation, and the "back-and-forth" method used on the legal documents to date is probably the only sensible way to deal with that (no matter who drafts first). That said, I'm all in favor of fiscal restraint. There are a number of ways we can make our use of counsel cost-effective without turning to the counsel to the corporation we are trying to hold accountable. I'm quite certain that our counsel at Sidley and Adler have a number of ideas about how we can contain costs, especially after having worked with us for so long. We should invite them to provide written and oral suggestions on that subject, as soon as possible. Finally, if anyone has forgotten why we strongly felt the need for independent counsel at the beginning of this journey, please go back and read the materials from that time. If you disagreed then, and disagreed now, just say so, but let's not rehash. If someone who thought we needed independent counsel then thinks the circumstances have so drastically changed that we no longer need independent counsel, that might be an interesting point for discussion. The rest of this is just going around in circles.... Greg On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com <mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com> > wrote: There would seem to be an issue with "default" is there any substantive difference if we consider independent legal council "default" with the availability of icann inhouse legal services to compliment . That would also suggest the need for fiscal restraint rd Rudi Daniel danielcharles consulting <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/Dan...> On Fri, Jul 15, 2016 at 2:14 PM, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com <mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> > wrote: Hello, By default means always considering use of ICANN legal staff first before going independent. I don't think this should require a dialout as I think we all agree that CCWG should have access to independent legal whenever required. Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos On 15 Jul 2016 19:00, "farzaneh badii" <farzaneh.badii@gmail.com <mailto:farzaneh.badii@gmail.com> > wrote: No. Using the independent legal advisers responsibly does not mean that we have to have a default approach. I wonder what the next steps would be on this issue. Perhaps co-chairs can help us on this ? Are we going to have a call and discuss this and come up with a solution? On 15 July 2016 at 19:46, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com <mailto:seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> > wrote: +1 on ensuring access to independent legal adviser whenever required by CCWG. This would imply referring to internal legal(staff) by default and then call for independent legal advice whenever the group sense there is need for clarification (or when the issues at hand is warranted). Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos On 15 Jul 2016 13:19, "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com <mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com> > wrote: Agree with Keith. CCWG must preserve the use of independent legal advisors, but use this responsibly, and with an eye on controlling costs. Ultimately, it is gTLD registrants picking up the bill, and we need to ensure that this work is mindful of their interests. Thanks— J. From: <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Keith Drazek <kdrazek@verisign.com <mailto:kdrazek@verisign.com> > Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 16:53 To: Phil Corwin <psc@vlaw-dc.com <mailto:psc@vlaw-dc.com> >, Matthew Shears <mshears@cdt.org <mailto:mshears@cdt.org> >, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com> >, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org <mailto:robin@ipjustice.org> > Cc: Accountability Cross Community <accountability-cross-community@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org> > Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question. That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist. I am obligated to report that the Registries Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future spending. I know we’re developing cost-control mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG. Holly’s question and the response about budgeting vis-à-vis ICANN’s outside counsel was instructive. Any and all outside counsel expenses will require certification. So, let me reiterate my view…the CCWG must have access to independent legal advice. We must ensure costs are controlled and resources are used efficiently. If that means selectively turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can and do support that, but not at the expense of our ability to seek independent advice. Regards, Keith From: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Phil Corwin Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM To: Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross Cc: Accountability Cross Community Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Access to independent legal advice for WS2 issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable Use your power, Empowered Community Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597 <tel:202-559-8597> /Direct 202-559-8750 <tel:202-559-8750> /Fax 202-255-6172 <tel:202-255-6172> /Cell Twitter: @VlawDC "Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey From:mshears@cdt.org <mailto:mshears@cdt.org> Sent:July 14, 2016 5:26 PM To:gregshatanipc@gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com> ; robin@ipjustice.org <mailto:robin@ipjustice.org> Cc:accountability-cross-community@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community@icann.org> Subject:Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC + 1 well said Robin. On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote: Robin, Agree 100%. Greg On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org <mailto:robin@ipjustice.org> > wrote: It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals. Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms. This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice. Thanks, Robin

On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net <mailto:lists@nielstenoever.net> > wrote:

Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James

On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:

...

Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.

CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option.

+ 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate.

Best,

Tanya

On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote:

...

Siva,

The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that, please ask them.

I will briefly say the following:

1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally competent and competent in a specific area are two different things.

2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice is another thing entirely.

3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have answered your own question.

Greg

On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com> <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com <mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com> >> wrote:

Greg,

​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com <mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com> ');>> wrote:

I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the "default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for good reason ​s​

and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't need to rehash that.

We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its independent counsel.

I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo, i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London, Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.

Greg

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel <rudi.daniel@gmail.com <mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com <mailto:rudi.daniel@gmail.com> ');>> wrote:

Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and external, from start, We should be much more efficient this time around. Each sub however will have their needs and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups and/or specific to a subgroup. So, that suggests close relationship between budget control and the former legal request team [reconfigured and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests across ws2 sub groups as i see it. What determines the initial choice inhouse/external resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with the flexible and necessary option of external sources by consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion from an external, because there may arise an instance where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek alternative advise elswhere. rd

Rudi Daniel /danielcharles consulting <http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>/ * *

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari <vinay.kesari@gmail.com <mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com <mailto:vinay.kesari@gmail.com> ');>> wrote:

Dear all,

I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.

Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made and the specific requirements of the different WS2 subgroups.

Regards, Vinay

On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill <mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr <mailto:mathieu.weill@afnic.fr> ');>> wrote:

Dear Colleagues,

Attached is a short set of slides to support our discussion on agenda item #4

Talk to you in a few hours

Mathieu

*De :*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> ');> [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org <mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> ');>] *De la part de* MSSI Secretariat *Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46 *À :* CCWG-Accountability *Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

Good day all,

In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability WS2 Meeting #2 <https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday, 12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter here <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability... <http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...> &iso=20160712T20&p1=1440&ah=2>

*Proposed Agenda:*

1. Welcome, SOI

2. Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

3. Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

4. Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

5. AOB

6. Closing

*Adobe Connect: *https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/ <https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/>

Thank you!

With kind regards,

Brenda Brewer

MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers

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Can I ask that we re think this. This is a CCWG. We will return to usual days, right. maybe sometime in the near future. When CCWG needs independent counsel is one thing. BUT we should not be assuming that ICANN retained or internal counsel is either biased, or evil, or not trustworthy. Really. having hired [and okay, fired] a lot of legal teams in my career days in corporation, I suggest you focus on when you as CCWG need outside counsel not always assume that you need outside counsel. But remember, I supported the CCWG having independent counsel, and I defended the extra cost. And I do, but let's be judicious. M Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2016 19:14:28 +0100 From: seun.ojedeji@gmail.com To: farzaneh.badii@gmail.com CC: accountability-cross-community@icann.org Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Hello, By default means always considering use of ICANN legal staff first before going independent. I don't think this should require a dialout as I think we all agree that CCWG should have access to independent legal whenever required. Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos On 15 Jul 2016 19:00, "farzaneh badii" <farzaneh.badii@gmail.com> wrote: No. Using the independent legal advisers responsibly does not mean that we have to have a default approach. I wonder what the next steps would be on this issue. Perhaps co-chairs can help us on this ? Are we going to have a call and discuss this and come up with a solution? On 15 July 2016 at 19:46, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> wrote: +1 on ensuring access to independent legal adviser whenever required by CCWG. This would imply referring to internal legal(staff) by default and then call for independent legal advice whenever the group sense there is need for clarification (or when the issues at hand is warranted). Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos On 15 Jul 2016 13:19, "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com> wrote: Agree with Keith. CCWG must preserve the use of independent legal advisors, but use this responsibly, and with an eye on controlling costs. Ultimately, it is gTLD registrants picking up the bill, and we need to ensure that this work is mindful of their interests. Thanks— J. From: <accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Keith Drazek <kdrazek@verisign.com> Date: Thursday, July 14, 2016 at 16:53 To: Phil Corwin <psc@vlaw-dc.com>, Matthew Shears <mshears@cdt.org>, Greg Shatan <gregshatanipc@gmail.com>, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org> Cc: Accountability Cross Community <accountability-cross-community@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Agreed. Access to independent legal advice was never in question. That said, in the interest of controlling costs, I have no problem seeking input from ICANN’s internal lawyers on issues that are deemed non-contentious or where potential conflicts do not exist. I am obligated to report that the Registries Stakeholder Group is very, very concerned about the cost of legal fees from WS1 and wants to ensure the CCWG is efficient with its future spending. I know we’re developing cost-control mechanisms for WS2, and I’ve advised my SG accordingly, but this will continue to receive attention from the RySG. Holly’s question and the response about budgeting vis-à-vis ICANN’s outside counsel was instructive. Any and all outside counsel expenses will require certification. So, let me reiterate my view…the CCWG must have access to independent legal advice. We must ensure costs are controlled and resources are used efficiently. If that means selectively turning to ICANN’s lawyers on occasion, I can and do support that, but not at the expense of our ability to seek independent advice. Regards, Keith From: accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org [mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Phil Corwin Sent: Thursday, July 14, 2016 5:34 PM To: Matthew Shears; Greg Shatan; Robin Gross Cc: Accountability Cross Community Subject: Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC Access to independent legal advice for WS2 issues is fundamental and should be non-negotiable Use your power, Empowered Community Philip S. Corwin, Founding Principal Virtualaw LLC 1155 F Street NW Suite 1050 Washington, DC 20004 202-559-8597/Direct 202-559-8750/Fax 202-255-6172/Cell Twitter: @VlawDC "Luck is the residue of design" --- Branch Rickey From:mshears@cdt.org Sent:July 14, 2016 5:26 PM To:gregshatanipc@gmail.com; robin@ipjustice.org Cc:accountability-cross-community@icann.org Subject:Re: [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC + 1 well said Robin. On 14/07/2016 03:20, Greg Shatan wrote: Robin, Agree 100%. Greg On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Robin Gross <robin@ipjustice.org> wrote: It is simply a non-starter to suggest that CCWG would lose its right to independent counsel at this stage. I am struggling to understand *where* the suggestion to start this debate all over again even came from. We have very important issues on our agenda for WorkStream 2 that require independence of legal advice: transparency of board deliberations, reforming the DIDP, the CEP, etc., which all involve trying to reform the policies that were created by the in-house legal dept. It is silly to suggest that we must seek the legal advice from those who created the policies we are trying to reform as that would be counter-productive to our goals. Additionally it was revealed in yesterday’s calls, that ICANN’s legal dept fees will be added to the CCWG’s independent fees, so CCWG will be billed for the in-house efforts to resist our reforms (and we won’t be given access to the legal advice that we would be paying for). I think it is extremely important the legal fees NOT be conflated together. We need to understand what the separate costs are, and we cannot be held responsible for spending on Jones Day that is outside of our control. Fees that ICANN corporate undertakes must be separated from fees that CCWG undertakes or the proposed budget process makes absolutely no sense, unless it was intended to tie CCWG’s hands and give ICANN corporate a blank check to spend resisting our reforms. This is an important issue that we cannot roll over on, or everything else we try to do from here on out will be of questionable value. This settled debate should not be re-opened, despite the huge win for ICANN corporate if were to succeed in over-turning this group’s previous decision on this critical matter of independence of legal advice. Thanks, Robin

On Jul 13, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Niels ten Oever <lists@nielstenoever.net> wrote:

Also +1 to Greg and +1 to James

On 07/13/2016 10:50 PM, Dr. Tatiana Tropina wrote:

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Thanks, Greg. +1. Fully agree.

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CCWG shall retain the ability to ask for independent advice. Also agree

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that continuing with Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin is the best option.

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+ 1 also to James previous email about not reopening the debate.

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Best,

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Tanya

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On 13/07/16 22:42, Greg Shatan wrote:

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Siva,

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The reasons are all in the record. Please go back and read all of the

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materials and discussions relating to our desire and choice to hire

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independent counsel. If you have any specific questions after that,

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please ask them.

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I will briefly say the following:

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1. This has nothing to do with competence, although being generally

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competent and competent in a specific area are two different things.

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2. Where we needed first-hand knowledge or history, we've turned to

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ICANN legal as one source for such things. That won't change. Advice

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is another thing entirely.

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3. Ask yourself "Who is ICANN legal's client?" and you will have

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answered your own question.

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Greg

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On Wednesday, July 13, 2016, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com

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<mailto:isolatedn@gmail.com>> wrote:

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Greg,

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​How valid are your assumptions? What are the reasons for this

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unwillingness to make use of ICANN Legal, who are competent, have

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first hand knowledge and a complete understanding of the legal

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nuances on matters concerning ICANN, may I ask?​ Saves money on

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most matters requiring legal advice, and should there be areas

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that require specialized advice, we could seek external advice.

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On Thu, Jul 14, 2016 at 12:28 AM, Greg Shatan

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<gregshatanipc@gmail.com

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<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','gregshatanipc@gmail.com');>> wrote:

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I object, and I think many others objected, to the idea that

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advice from inhouse (i.e., ICANN legal) should be the

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"default." We retained independent counsel to the CCWG for

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good reason

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​s​

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and those reasons are still applicable today. I hope we don't

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need to rehash that.

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We need the continued ability and discretion to go directly to

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CCWG's counsel. Requesting inhouse to solicit an opinion from

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an external counsel is not only "cumbersome," it's absolutely

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antithetical to the relationship between CCWG and its

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independent counsel.

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I strongly believe that the "default" must be the status quo,

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i.e., that the CCWG (through reasonable processes) has the

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ability and discretion to turn to its own counsel. Further, I

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strongly believe that CCWG's independent counsel must remain

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Sidley Austin and Adler & Colvin. They have been up a

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tremendous learning curve and worked with us every step of the

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way. It would be folly to cast that aside. It's worth noting

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that Sidley is a full-service law firm with offices outside

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the US in Beijing, Brussels, Geneva, Hong Kong, London,

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Munich, Shanghai, Singapore, Sydney and Tokyo. I'm confident

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that Sidley (and Adler) will (a) tell us when they don't have

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the expertise to help us, and (b) work with us on working

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methods to make our use of the firms more cost-effective.

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Greg

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On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 9:22 PM, Rudolph Daniel

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<rudi.daniel@gmail.com

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<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','rudi.daniel@gmail.com');>> wrote:

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Based on comments on the call today, IMO; A good body of

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knowledge was accquired on the subject of legal requests

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in wg1. WG2 legal resources would be both inhouse and

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external, from start, We should be much more efficient

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this time around. Each sub however will have their needs

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and there may be requests applicable across the subgroups

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and/or specific to a subgroup.

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So, that suggests close relationship between budget

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control and the former legal request team [reconfigured

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and/or augmented] who would have to coordinate requests

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across ws2 sub

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groups as i see it.

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What determines the initial choice inhouse/external

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resources may be a matter of consensus, but it may be

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prudent to consider the process as [default] inhouse with

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the flexible and necessary option of external sources by

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consensus [as the fog clears so to speak]. I think it may

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be cumbersome to request inhouse to solicit an opinion

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from an external, because there may arise an instance

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where; on the strength of an opinion, [inhouse or

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external] ; a wg2 may wish to reframe and seek

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alternative advise elswhere.

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rd

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Rudi Daniel

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/danielcharles consulting

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<http://www.facebook.com/pages/Kingstown-Saint-Vincent-and-the-Grenadines/DanielCharles/153611257984774>/

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*

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*

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On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 7:21 PM, Vinay Kesari

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<vinay.kesari@gmail.com

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<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vinay.kesari@gmail.com');>>

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wrote:

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Dear all,

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I was unfortunately unable to join the call as I was

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on a flight at the time, my apologies. I've just had a

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chance to catch up on the Adobe Connect recording, and

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I'm happy to reconfirm my willingness and availability

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to serve as a rapporteur. Also, I agree with the

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thrust of Kavouss' comment at 0:24:30, and affirm my

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commitment to serve impartially. I look forward to

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working with Greg on the jurisdiction subgroup.

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Separately, on the issue of allocation of legal

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requests, I agree that we need further discussion, and

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endorse creating an Option 3 based on the points made

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and the specific requirements of the different WS2

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subgroups.

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Regards,

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Vinay

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On 12 July 2016 at 20:55, Mathieu Weill

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<mathieu.weill@afnic.fr

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<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','mathieu.weill@afnic.fr');>>

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wrote:

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Dear Colleagues,

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Attached is a short set of slides to support our

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discussion on agenda item #4

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Talk to you in a few hours

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Mathieu

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*De :*accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org

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<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');>

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[mailto:accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org

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<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','accountability-cross-community-bounces@icann.org');>]

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*De la part de* MSSI Secretariat

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*Envoyé :* lundi 11 juillet 2016 19:46

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*À :* CCWG-Accountability

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*Objet :* [CCWG-ACCT] Proposed Agenda CCWG ACCT

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Meeting - 12 July 2016 @ 20:00 UTC

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Good day all,

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In preparation for your call, CCWG Accountability

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WS2 Meeting #2

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<https://community.icann.org/x/FyOOAw>– Tuesday,

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12 July @ 20:00 – 22:00 UTC. Time zone converter

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here

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<http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=CCWG+Accountability...>

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*Proposed Agenda:*

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1. Welcome, SOI

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2.

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Articles of Incorporation : finalize submission

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3.

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Appointment of rapporteurs for WS2 – next steps

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4.

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Legal Cost Control Mechanism : initial discussion

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5. AOB

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6. Closing

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*Adobe Connect:

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*https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/

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<https://icann.adobeconnect.com/accountability/>

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Thank you!

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With kind regards,

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Brenda Brewer

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MSSI Projects & Operations Assistant

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ICANN-**Internet Corporation for Assigned Names

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and Numbers

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_______________________________________________

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--

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Sivasubramanian M <https://www.facebook.com/sivasubramanian.muthusamy>

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