At-Large: Part of the Private Sector? Part of Civil Society?
These two questions seem to be coming up regularly. The current draft proposal of the CCWG-Accountability refers to ICANN being leg by the "Private Sector (as opposed to the Public Sector - Governments), and includes us in the Civil society part of the private sector. Looking at definitions can be useful. There are many of both terms. The most common definition of the Private Sector says it is everything that is not funded or controlled by government. Many definitions even explicitly list individuals as part of it. That certainly includes us. Some definitions talk about three groups, the public sector, the private sector (referring to for-profit organizations) and the "Voluntary Sector". The latter certainly includes the formal parts of At-Large, but really leaves individuals, who are no longer part of ANY of the sectors. From my perspective, that means that if we are part of the "Private Sector", we better be explicitly listed as such. I would appreciate hearing how these terms are defined in other languages and cultures. The Wikipedia defines Civil Society as "aggregate of non-governmental organizations and institutions that manifest interests and will of citizens." Civil society includes the family and the private sphere, referred to as the "third sector" of society, distinct from government and business. The World Bank has a more detailed definition: the term civil society to refer to the wide array of non-governmental and not-for-profit organizations that have a presence in public life, expressing the interests and values of their members or others, based on ethical, cultural, political, scientific, religious or philanthropic considerations. Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) therefore refer to a wide of array of organizations: community groups, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), labor unions, indigenous groups, charitable organizations, faith-based organizations, professional associations, and foundations". In both definitions, Civil Society is listed as essentially being defines as groups of one form or another. By those definitions, At-large and our components parts are certainly civil society, but the individuals whose interests we defend are not part of civil society per se. Thoughts? Alan
Dear Alan and all, that's a very valid point you raised below -- what BTW created some headaches during and after our recent briefing calls to me. To me, the term and definition of Private Sector is too general and broad (anything besides government). And personally, I do not feel addressed and comfortable being subsumed under this term and category. For many people, I guess, it smells more like private enterprises and business sector. When we usually and repetitious talk about "multi-"stakeholder approach and setup, there should be a bit more than just the Private Sector besides governments. And imprecise and generalizing terms may easily provoke misunderstandings, as we know. Consequently, when we always and fundamentally refer to the *multi-stakeholder model* at ICANN, we should reflect and list its diversity (at least like the IGF does) -- or add / include the "Voluntary Sector" what comprises individuals as well IMO. My personal preference is still the term Civil Society according to the definitions by Wikipedia or the World Bank (you referred to) what is rather concise. On the other hand, I have (more and more) difficulties with our usual term "Users" what can be misleading again -- as I know from various discussions and remarks -- because generally, people working in / for governments and business employees are Internet users as well. For real outsiders (my neighborhood or the "man in the street") our term and definition of the "User" is not easily comprehensible. Just my 2 cents with regards, Wolf Alan Greenberg wrote Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:58:
These two questions seem to be coming up regularly. The current draft proposal of the CCWG-Accountability refers to ICANN being leg by the "Private Sector (as opposed to the Public Sector - Governments), and includes us in the Civil society part of the private sector.
Looking at definitions can be useful. There are many of both terms.
The most common definition of the Private Sector says it is everything that is not funded or controlled by government. Many definitions even explicitly list individuals as part of it. That certainly includes us.
Some definitions talk about three groups, the public sector, the private sector (referring to for-profit organizations) and the "Voluntary Sector". The latter certainly includes the formal parts of At-Large, but really leaves individuals, who are no longer part of ANY of the sectors.
From my perspective, that means that if we are part of the "Private Sector", we better be explicitly listed as such.
I would appreciate hearing how these terms are defined in other languages and cultures.
The Wikipedia defines Civil Society as "aggregate of non-governmental organizations and institutions that manifest interests and will of citizens." Civil society includes the family and the private sphere, referred to as the "third sector" of society, distinct from government and business.
The World Bank has a more detailed definition: the term civil society to refer to the wide array of non-governmental and not-for-profit organizations that have a presence in public life, expressing the interests and values of their members or others, based on ethical, cultural, political, scientific, religious or philanthropic considerations. Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) therefore refer to a wide of array of organizations: community groups, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), labor unions, indigenous groups, charitable organizations, faith-based organizations, professional associations, and foundations".
In both definitions, Civil Society is listed as essentially being defines as groups of one form or another. By those definitions, At-large and our components parts are certainly civil society, but the individuals whose interests we defend are not part of civil society per se.
Thoughts?
Alan
EuroDIG Secretariat http://www.eurodig.org/ mobile +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig EURALO - ICANN's Regional At-Large Organisation http://euralo.org Profile on LinkedIn http://ch.linkedin.com/in/wolfludwig
Absolutely agree with the point that both Wolf and Alan are making. Civil society is a good term - well used and understood. Another term is consumers - clearly distinct from industry and government Holly On 1 Sep 2015, at 5:45 am, Wolf Ludwig <wolf.ludwig@comunica-ch.net> wrote:
Dear Alan and all,
that's a very valid point you raised below -- what BTW created some headaches during and after our recent briefing calls to me.
To me, the term and definition of Private Sector is too general and broad (anything besides government). And personally, I do not feel addressed and comfortable being subsumed under this term and category. For many people, I guess, it smells more like private enterprises and business sector.
When we usually and repetitious talk about "multi-"stakeholder approach and setup, there should be a bit more than just the Private Sector besides governments. And imprecise and generalizing terms may easily provoke misunderstandings, as we know.
Consequently, when we always and fundamentally refer to the *multi-stakeholder model* at ICANN, we should reflect and list its diversity (at least like the IGF does) -- or add / include the "Voluntary Sector" what comprises individuals as well IMO.
My personal preference is still the term Civil Society according to the definitions by Wikipedia or the World Bank (you referred to) what is rather concise. On the other hand, I have (more and more) difficulties with our usual term "Users" what can be misleading again -- as I know from various discussions and remarks -- because generally, people working in / for governments and business employees are Internet users as well. For real outsiders (my neighborhood or the "man in the street") our term and definition of the "User" is not easily comprehensible.
Just my 2 cents with regards, Wolf
Alan Greenberg wrote Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:58:
These two questions seem to be coming up regularly. The current draft proposal of the CCWG-Accountability refers to ICANN being leg by the "Private Sector (as opposed to the Public Sector - Governments), and includes us in the Civil society part of the private sector.
Looking at definitions can be useful. There are many of both terms.
The most common definition of the Private Sector says it is everything that is not funded or controlled by government. Many definitions even explicitly list individuals as part of it. That certainly includes us.
Some definitions talk about three groups, the public sector, the private sector (referring to for-profit organizations) and the "Voluntary Sector". The latter certainly includes the formal parts of At-Large, but really leaves individuals, who are no longer part of ANY of the sectors.
From my perspective, that means that if we are part of the "Private Sector", we better be explicitly listed as such.
I would appreciate hearing how these terms are defined in other languages and cultures.
The Wikipedia defines Civil Society as "aggregate of non-governmental organizations and institutions that manifest interests and will of citizens." Civil society includes the family and the private sphere, referred to as the "third sector" of society, distinct from government and business.
The World Bank has a more detailed definition: the term civil society to refer to the wide array of non-governmental and not-for-profit organizations that have a presence in public life, expressing the interests and values of their members or others, based on ethical, cultural, political, scientific, religious or philanthropic considerations. Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) therefore refer to a wide of array of organizations: community groups, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), labor unions, indigenous groups, charitable organizations, faith-based organizations, professional associations, and foundations".
In both definitions, Civil Society is listed as essentially being defines as groups of one form or another. By those definitions, At-large and our components parts are certainly civil society, but the individuals whose interests we defend are not part of civil society per se.
Thoughts?
Alan
EuroDIG Secretariat http://www.eurodig.org/ mobile +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig
EURALO - ICANN's Regional At-Large Organisation http://euralo.org
Profile on LinkedIn http://ch.linkedin.com/in/wolfludwig _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
Hello again, just to underline what I said before, let me tell you a nice anecdote or conversation I recently had in a train. I met the father of my daughter’s best friend over many years. This fellow is highly intelligent, extremely curious but never really understood over the years what I am doing in the context of ICANN. Whenever we meet, he is asking new and more questions about ICANN’s mandate, role, composition, functioning (incl. At-Large and EURALO) and my tiny place or contribution to it – what BTW I deeply appreciate! His opening question or provocation always is: “Wolf, be honest, do you really believe that your time and commitment is worth the effort?” Over many such conversations I tried to give him a basic picture about ICANN’s role and functioning … Meanwhile it seems he has understood quite a lot. Last time he focused on At-Large / EURALO “representing the user’s interests at ICANN” again. And he said / questioned: “Being a governmental official (what he is) that means, during my working hours I am more or less represented by the GAC and its Swiss representative. Coming home or in my private life, I am just an ordinary consumer or Internet user, like billions of others, represented by you (At-Large).” He added ironically: “This offers some comfort to me because I know I am sort of double and well represented at ICANN in my professional life AND my private sphere!” :-) To him our claim “representing the user’s interests at ICANN” sounds simply pretentious (what we all know BTW)! Because strictly speaking and in his words and logic again: “If you pretend to represent Internet users at-large (or in total), there wouldn’t be much necessity for a GAC or GNSO etc. any more?” And he fairly assumes that the world incl. ICANN is far more complex ;-)
From such conversations with alert people and “outsiders” (we want to reach-out, mobilize and include) I have learned that we need to be very and more precise about our terms and specific role – by avoiding any pretentious claims.
Best, Wolf Holly Raiche wrote Tue, 1 Sep 2015 06:01
Absolutely agree with the point that both Wolf and Alan are making. Civil society is a good term - well used and understood. Another term is consumers - clearly distinct from industry and government
Holly On 1 Sep 2015, at 5:45 am, Wolf Ludwig <wolf.ludwig@comunica-ch.net> wrote:
Dear Alan and all,
that's a very valid point you raised below -- what BTW created some headaches during and after our recent briefing calls to me.
To me, the term and definition of Private Sector is too general and broad (anything besides government). And personally, I do not feel addressed and comfortable being subsumed under this term and category. For many people, I guess, it smells more like private enterprises and business sector.
When we usually and repetitious talk about "multi-"stakeholder approach and setup, there should be a bit more than just the Private Sector besides governments. And imprecise and generalizing terms may easily provoke misunderstandings, as we know.
Consequently, when we always and fundamentally refer to the *multi-stakeholder model* at ICANN, we should reflect and list its diversity (at least like the IGF does) -- or add / include the "Voluntary Sector" what comprises individuals as well IMO.
My personal preference is still the term Civil Society according to the definitions by Wikipedia or the World Bank (you referred to) what is rather concise. On the other hand, I have (more and more) difficulties with our usual term "Users" what can be misleading again -- as I know from various discussions and remarks -- because generally, people working in / for governments and business employees are Internet users as well. For real outsiders (my neighborhood or the "man in the street") our term and definition of the "User" is not easily comprehensible.
Just my 2 cents with regards, Wolf
Alan Greenberg wrote Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:58:
These two questions seem to be coming up regularly. The current draft proposal of the CCWG-Accountability refers to ICANN being leg by the "Private Sector (as opposed to the Public Sector - Governments), and includes us in the Civil society part of the private sector.
Looking at definitions can be useful. There are many of both terms.
The most common definition of the Private Sector says it is everything that is not funded or controlled by government. Many definitions even explicitly list individuals as part of it. That certainly includes us.
Some definitions talk about three groups, the public sector, the private sector (referring to for-profit organizations) and the "Voluntary Sector". The latter certainly includes the formal parts of At-Large, but really leaves individuals, who are no longer part of ANY of the sectors.
From my perspective, that means that if we are part of the "Private Sector", we better be explicitly listed as such.
I would appreciate hearing how these terms are defined in other languages and cultures.
The Wikipedia defines Civil Society as "aggregate of non-governmental organizations and institutions that manifest interests and will of citizens." Civil society includes the family and the private sphere, referred to as the "third sector" of society, distinct from government and business.
The World Bank has a more detailed definition: the term civil society to refer to the wide array of non-governmental and not-for-profit organizations that have a presence in public life, expressing the interests and values of their members or others, based on ethical, cultural, political, scientific, religious or philanthropic considerations. Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) therefore refer to a wide of array of organizations: community groups, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), labor unions, indigenous groups, charitable organizations, faith-based organizations, professional associations, and foundations".
In both definitions, Civil Society is listed as essentially being defines as groups of one form or another. By those definitions, At-large and our components parts are certainly civil society, but the individuals whose interests we defend are not part of civil society per se.
Thoughts?
Alan
EuroDIG Secretariat http://www.eurodig.org/ mobile +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig
EURALO - ICANN's Regional At-Large Organisation http://euralo.org
Profile on LinkedIn http://ch.linkedin.com/in/wolfludwig _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
EuroDIG Secretariat http://www.eurodig.org/ mobile +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig EURALO - ICANN's Regional At-Large Organisation http://euralo.org Profile on LinkedIn http://ch.linkedin.com/in/wolfludwig
Dear Wolf, You are right. I´ve had this kind of conversations too. It is in fact quite hard to explain to the people who we represent, what we are doing. cu jimmy... Am 31.08.15 um 23:11 schrieb Wolf Ludwig:
Hello again,
just to underline what I said before, let me tell you a nice anecdote or conversation I recently had in a train. I met the father of my daughter’s best friend over many years. This fellow is highly intelligent, extremely curious but never really understood over the years what I am doing in the context of ICANN. Whenever we meet, he is asking new and more questions about ICANN’s mandate, role, composition, functioning (incl. At-Large and EURALO) and my tiny place or contribution to it – what BTW I deeply appreciate! His opening question or provocation always is: “Wolf, be honest, do you really believe that your time and commitment is worth the effort?”
Over many such conversations I tried to give him a basic picture about ICANN’s role and functioning … Meanwhile it seems he has understood quite a lot. Last time he focused on At-Large / EURALO “representing the user’s interests at ICANN” again. And he said / questioned: “Being a governmental official (what he is) that means, during my working hours I am more or less represented by the GAC and its Swiss representative. Coming home or in my private life, I am just an ordinary consumer or Internet user, like billions of others, represented by you (At-Large).” He added ironically: “This offers some comfort to me because I know I am sort of double and well represented at ICANN in my professional life AND my private sphere!” :-)
To him our claim “representing the user’s interests at ICANN” sounds simply pretentious (what we all know BTW)! Because strictly speaking and in his words and logic again: “If you pretend to represent Internet users at-large (or in total), there wouldn’t be much necessity for a GAC or GNSO etc. any more?” And he fairly assumes that the world incl. ICANN is far more complex ;-)
From such conversations with alert people and “outsiders” (we want to reach-out, mobilize and include) I have learned that we need to be very and more precise about our terms and specific role – by avoiding any pretentious claims.
Best, Wolf
Holly Raiche wrote Tue, 1 Sep 2015 06:01
Absolutely agree with the point that both Wolf and Alan are making. Civil society is a good term - well used and understood. Another term is consumers - clearly distinct from industry and government
Holly On 1 Sep 2015, at 5:45 am, Wolf Ludwig <wolf.ludwig@comunica-ch.net> wrote:
Dear Alan and all,
that's a very valid point you raised below -- what BTW created some headaches during and after our recent briefing calls to me.
To me, the term and definition of Private Sector is too general and broad (anything besides government). And personally, I do not feel addressed and comfortable being subsumed under this term and category. For many people, I guess, it smells more like private enterprises and business sector.
When we usually and repetitious talk about "multi-"stakeholder approach and setup, there should be a bit more than just the Private Sector besides governments. And imprecise and generalizing terms may easily provoke misunderstandings, as we know.
Consequently, when we always and fundamentally refer to the *multi-stakeholder model* at ICANN, we should reflect and list its diversity (at least like the IGF does) -- or add / include the "Voluntary Sector" what comprises individuals as well IMO.
My personal preference is still the term Civil Society according to the definitions by Wikipedia or the World Bank (you referred to) what is rather concise. On the other hand, I have (more and more) difficulties with our usual term "Users" what can be misleading again -- as I know from various discussions and remarks -- because generally, people working in / for governments and business employees are Internet users as well. For real outsiders (my neighborhood or the "man in the street") our term and definition of the "User" is not easily comprehensible.
Just my 2 cents with regards, Wolf
Alan Greenberg wrote Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:58:
These two questions seem to be coming up regularly. The current draft proposal of the CCWG-Accountability refers to ICANN being leg by the "Private Sector (as opposed to the Public Sector - Governments), and includes us in the Civil society part of the private sector.
Looking at definitions can be useful. There are many of both terms.
The most common definition of the Private Sector says it is everything that is not funded or controlled by government. Many definitions even explicitly list individuals as part of it. That certainly includes us.
Some definitions talk about three groups, the public sector, the private sector (referring to for-profit organizations) and the "Voluntary Sector". The latter certainly includes the formal parts of At-Large, but really leaves individuals, who are no longer part of ANY of the sectors.
From my perspective, that means that if we are part of the "Private Sector", we better be explicitly listed as such.
I would appreciate hearing how these terms are defined in other languages and cultures.
The Wikipedia defines Civil Society as "aggregate of non-governmental organizations and institutions that manifest interests and will of citizens." Civil society includes the family and the private sphere, referred to as the "third sector" of society, distinct from government and business.
The World Bank has a more detailed definition: the term civil society to refer to the wide array of non-governmental and not-for-profit organizations that have a presence in public life, expressing the interests and values of their members or others, based on ethical, cultural, political, scientific, religious or philanthropic considerations. Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) therefore refer to a wide of array of organizations: community groups, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), labor unions, indigenous groups, charitable organizations, faith-based organizations, professional associations, and foundations".
In both definitions, Civil Society is listed as essentially being defines as groups of one form or another. By those definitions, At-large and our components parts are certainly civil society, but the individuals whose interests we defend are not part of civil society per se.
Thoughts?
Alan
EuroDIG Secretariat http://www.eurodig.org/ mobile +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig
EURALO - ICANN's Regional At-Large Organisation http://euralo.org
Profile on LinkedIn http://ch.linkedin.com/in/wolfludwig _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
EuroDIG Secretariat http://www.eurodig.org/ mobile +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig
EURALO - ICANN's Regional At-Large Organisation http://euralo.org
Profile on LinkedIn http://ch.linkedin.com/in/wolfludwig _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
Holly, if I may just point out the danger of accepting the term "consumer". As Evan and I have been pointing out over the years, "consumer" considers the Global Internet User only under the guise of his relation to business, in this case the Domain Name Businesses. Jean-Jacques. ----- Mail original ----- De: "Holly Raiche" <h.raiche@internode.on.net> À: "Wolf Ludwig" <wolf.ludwig@comunica-ch.net> Cc: "ALAC" <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org>, "Alan Greenberg" <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> Envoyé: Lundi 31 Août 2015 22:01:09 Objet: Re: [ALAC] At-Large: Part of the Private Sector? Part of Civil Society? Absolutely agree with the point that both Wolf and Alan are making. Civil society is a good term - well used and understood. Another term is consumers - clearly distinct from industry and government Holly On 1 Sep 2015, at 5:45 am, Wolf Ludwig <wolf.ludwig@comunica-ch.net> wrote:
Dear Alan and all,
that's a very valid point you raised below -- what BTW created some headaches during and after our recent briefing calls to me.
To me, the term and definition of Private Sector is too general and broad (anything besides government). And personally, I do not feel addressed and comfortable being subsumed under this term and category. For many people, I guess, it smells more like private enterprises and business sector.
When we usually and repetitious talk about "multi-"stakeholder approach and setup, there should be a bit more than just the Private Sector besides governments. And imprecise and generalizing terms may easily provoke misunderstandings, as we know.
Consequently, when we always and fundamentally refer to the *multi-stakeholder model* at ICANN, we should reflect and list its diversity (at least like the IGF does) -- or add / include the "Voluntary Sector" what comprises individuals as well IMO.
My personal preference is still the term Civil Society according to the definitions by Wikipedia or the World Bank (you referred to) what is rather concise. On the other hand, I have (more and more) difficulties with our usual term "Users" what can be misleading again -- as I know from various discussions and remarks -- because generally, people working in / for governments and business employees are Internet users as well. For real outsiders (my neighborhood or the "man in the street") our term and definition of the "User" is not easily comprehensible.
Just my 2 cents with regards, Wolf
Alan Greenberg wrote Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:58:
These two questions seem to be coming up regularly. The current draft proposal of the CCWG-Accountability refers to ICANN being leg by the "Private Sector (as opposed to the Public Sector - Governments), and includes us in the Civil society part of the private sector.
Looking at definitions can be useful. There are many of both terms.
The most common definition of the Private Sector says it is everything that is not funded or controlled by government. Many definitions even explicitly list individuals as part of it. That certainly includes us.
Some definitions talk about three groups, the public sector, the private sector (referring to for-profit organizations) and the "Voluntary Sector". The latter certainly includes the formal parts of At-Large, but really leaves individuals, who are no longer part of ANY of the sectors.
From my perspective, that means that if we are part of the "Private Sector", we better be explicitly listed as such.
I would appreciate hearing how these terms are defined in other languages and cultures.
The Wikipedia defines Civil Society as "aggregate of non-governmental organizations and institutions that manifest interests and will of citizens." Civil society includes the family and the private sphere, referred to as the "third sector" of society, distinct from government and business.
The World Bank has a more detailed definition: the term civil society to refer to the wide array of non-governmental and not-for-profit organizations that have a presence in public life, expressing the interests and values of their members or others, based on ethical, cultural, political, scientific, religious or philanthropic considerations. Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) therefore refer to a wide of array of organizations: community groups, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), labor unions, indigenous groups, charitable organizations, faith-based organizations, professional associations, and foundations".
In both definitions, Civil Society is listed as essentially being defines as groups of one form or another. By those definitions, At-large and our components parts are certainly civil society, but the individuals whose interests we defend are not part of civil society per se.
Thoughts?
Alan
EuroDIG Secretariat http://www.eurodig.org/ mobile +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig
EURALO - ICANN's Regional At-Large Organisation http://euralo.org
Profile on LinkedIn http://ch.linkedin.com/in/wolfludwig _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
+1. I share Wolf's concerns, his sensibilities and his proposals. -Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 2:45 PM, Wolf Ludwig <wolf.ludwig@comunica-ch.net> wrote:
Dear Alan and all,
that's a very valid point you raised below -- what BTW created some headaches during and after our recent briefing calls to me.
To me, the term and definition of Private Sector is too general and broad (anything besides government). And personally, I do not feel addressed and comfortable being subsumed under this term and category. For many people, I guess, it smells more like private enterprises and business sector.
When we usually and repetitious talk about "multi-"stakeholder approach and setup, there should be a bit more than just the Private Sector besides governments. And imprecise and generalizing terms may easily provoke misunderstandings, as we know.
Consequently, when we always and fundamentally refer to the *multi-stakeholder model* at ICANN, we should reflect and list its diversity (at least like the IGF does) -- or add / include the "Voluntary Sector" what comprises individuals as well IMO.
My personal preference is still the term Civil Society according to the definitions by Wikipedia or the World Bank (you referred to) what is rather concise. On the other hand, I have (more and more) difficulties with our usual term "Users" what can be misleading again -- as I know from various discussions and remarks -- because generally, people working in / for governments and business employees are Internet users as well. For real outsiders (my neighborhood or the "man in the street") our term and definition of the "User" is not easily comprehensible.
Just my 2 cents with regards, Wolf
Alan Greenberg wrote Mon, 31 Aug 2015 11:58:
These two questions seem to be coming up regularly. The current draft proposal of the CCWG-Accountability refers to ICANN being leg by the "Private Sector (as opposed to the Public Sector - Governments), and includes us in the Civil society part of the private sector.
Looking at definitions can be useful. There are many of both terms.
The most common definition of the Private Sector says it is everything that is not funded or controlled by government. Many definitions even explicitly list individuals as part of it. That certainly includes us.
Some definitions talk about three groups, the public sector, the private sector (referring to for-profit organizations) and the "Voluntary Sector". The latter certainly includes the formal parts of At-Large, but really leaves individuals, who are no longer part of ANY of the sectors.
From my perspective, that means that if we are part of the "Private Sector", we better be explicitly listed as such.
I would appreciate hearing how these terms are defined in other languages and cultures.
The Wikipedia defines Civil Society as "aggregate of non-governmental organizations and institutions that manifest interests and will of citizens." Civil society includes the family and the private sphere, referred to as the "third sector" of society, distinct from government and business.
The World Bank has a more detailed definition: the term civil society to refer to the wide array of non-governmental and not-for-profit organizations that have a presence in public life, expressing the interests and values of their members or others, based on ethical, cultural, political, scientific, religious or philanthropic considerations. Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) therefore refer to a wide of array of organizations: community groups, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), labor unions, indigenous groups, charitable organizations, faith-based organizations, professional associations, and foundations".
In both definitions, Civil Society is listed as essentially being defines as groups of one form or another. By those definitions, At-large and our components parts are certainly civil society, but the individuals whose interests we defend are not part of civil society per se.
Thoughts?
Alan
EuroDIG Secretariat http://www.eurodig.org/ mobile +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig
EURALO - ICANN's Regional At-Large Organisation http://euralo.org
Profile on LinkedIn http://ch.linkedin.com/in/wolfludwig _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
Dear Alan, I did a semantic analysis, using the dictionary of the Royal Spanish Academy. Public Sector: all public organizations and agencies, organizations and companies subject to them. Private Sector: That is not public or state property, but belongs to individuals. Society: natural grouping of people agreed that unit are different from each of the individuals, in order to meet, through mutual cooperation, all or any of the purposes of life. Civil society, private sector, citizens and society relationships and private activities. In the Latin world, we have two large sectors: the public sector (government) and the (non-governmental) Private Sector. In the latter enters the civil society and non-governmental sectors all we know. This is quite consistent with the definition of the World Bank. Although I agree that it should include the end user. In Argentina, the Law on Consumer Protection says in his article 1. This law aims to protect consumers or users. consumer is considered to the natural or legal person who acquires or uses, free of charge or for consideration, goods or services as an end in themselves or for their family or social group. Here and all over the world, the end user has two defenders. One for when you have problems with goods or services; and we to defend their interests within ICANN. But in my opinion, again, the end user must appear as such when the components of civil society are described. Regards Alberto De: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] En nombre de Alan Greenberg Enviado el: lunes, 31 de agosto de 2015 12:59 p. m. Para: ALAC <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: [ALAC] At-Large: Part of the Private Sector? Part of Civil Society? These two questions seem to be coming up regularly. The current draft proposal of the CCWG-Accountability refers to ICANN being leg by the "Private Sector (as opposed to the Public Sector - Governments), and includes us in the Civil society part of the private sector. Looking at definitions can be useful. There are many of both terms. The most common definition of the Private Sector says it is everything that is not funded or controlled by government. Many definitions even explicitly list individuals as part of it. That certainly includes us. Some definitions talk about three groups, the public sector, the private sector (referring to for-profit organizations) and the "Voluntary Sector". The latter certainly includes the formal parts of At-Large, but really leaves individuals, who are no longer part of ANY of the sectors.
From my perspective, that means that if we are part of the "Private Sector", we better be explicitly listed as such.
I would appreciate hearing how these terms are defined in other languages and cultures. The Wikipedia defines Civil Society as "aggregate of non-governmental organizations and institutions that manifest interests and will of citizens." Civil society includes the family and the private sphere, referred to as the "third sector" of society, distinct from government and business. The World Bank has a more detailed definition: the term civil society to refer to the wide array of non-governmental and not-for-profit organizations that have a presence in public life, expressing the interests and values of their members or others, based on ethical, cultural, political, scientific, religious or philanthropic considerations. Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) therefore refer to a wide of array of organizations: community groups, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), labor unions, indigenous groups, charitable organizations, faith-based organizations, professional associations, and foundations". In both definitions, Civil Society is listed as essentially being defines as groups of one form or another. By those definitions, At-large and our components parts are certainly civil society, but the individuals whose interests we defend are not part of civil society per se. Thoughts? Alan --- El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Alan, to follow up on my previous email where I brought up the question of differing linguistic and cultural contexts, I'm glad to repeat that outside of the English-speaking world, "private sector" often means business, industry, commerce. I am aware that in North America and the UK, "private sector" generally describes non-government. (By the way, the US and UK practice of labeling sovereign states as "governments" has its own shortcomings, because in many countries and other languages, "government" is the executive branch elected to govern, whereas "sovereign state", or "state", designates the entire body politic, including all state services, the judicial system, etc.) So, in many contexts worldwide, accepting the formulation "ICANN to be led by the private sector" would amount to acknowledging that, among theoretically equal stakeholders, business, industry and commerce would in fact enjoy a paramount status. In turn, such an interpretation could only lead (most) sovereign states to react (strongly) by demanding an equivalent enhancement of their powers. In any case, as has been consistently the case in major crises (e.g. world financial crisis in 2008, when some fraudulent banks were "too big to let die"), the general public bears the brunt. In the Internet sphere, the equivalent of the general public is (what I have consistently called) the Global Internet User. Jean-Jacques. ----- Mail original ----- De: "Alberto Soto" <asoto@ibero-americano.org> À: "Alan Greenberg" <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>, "ALAC" <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Envoyé: Mardi 1 Septembre 2015 03:12:13 Objet: Re: [ALAC] At-Large: Part of the Private Sector? Part of Civil Society? Dear Alan, I did a semantic analysis, using the dictionary of the Royal Spanish Academy. Public Sector: all public organizations and agencies, organizations and companies subject to them. Private Sector: That is not public or state property, but belongs to individuals. Society: natural grouping of people agreed that unit are different from each of the individuals, in order to meet, through mutual cooperation, all or any of the purposes of life. Civil society, private sector, citizens and society relationships and private activities. In the Latin world, we have two large sectors: the public sector (government) and the (non-governmental) Private Sector. In the latter enters the civil society and non-governmental sectors all we know. This is quite consistent with the definition of the World Bank. Although I agree that it should include the end user. In Argentina, the Law on Consumer Protection says in his article 1. This law aims to protect consumers or users. consumer is considered to the natural or legal person who acquires or uses, free of charge or for consideration, goods or services as an end in themselves or for their family or social group. Here and all over the world, the end user has two defenders. One for when you have problems with goods or services; and we to defend their interests within ICANN. But in my opinion, again, the end user must appear as such when the components of civil society are described. Regards Alberto De: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] En nombre de Alan Greenberg Enviado el: lunes, 31 de agosto de 2015 12:59 p. m. Para: ALAC <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: [ALAC] At-Large: Part of the Private Sector? Part of Civil Society? These two questions seem to be coming up regularly. The current draft proposal of the CCWG-Accountability refers to ICANN being leg by the "Private Sector (as opposed to the Public Sector - Governments), and includes us in the Civil society part of the private sector. Looking at definitions can be useful. There are many of both terms. The most common definition of the Private Sector says it is everything that is not funded or controlled by government. Many definitions even explicitly list individuals as part of it. That certainly includes us. Some definitions talk about three groups, the public sector, the private sector (referring to for-profit organizations) and the "Voluntary Sector". The latter certainly includes the formal parts of At-Large, but really leaves individuals, who are no longer part of ANY of the sectors.
From my perspective, that means that if we are part of the "Private Sector", we better be explicitly listed as such.
I would appreciate hearing how these terms are defined in other languages and cultures. The Wikipedia defines Civil Society as "aggregate of non-governmental organizations and institutions that manifest interests and will of citizens." Civil society includes the family and the private sphere, referred to as the "third sector" of society, distinct from government and business. The World Bank has a more detailed definition: the term civil society to refer to the wide array of non-governmental and not-for-profit organizations that have a presence in public life, expressing the interests and values of their members or others, based on ethical, cultural, political, scientific, religious or philanthropic considerations. Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) therefore refer to a wide of array of organizations: community groups, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), labor unions, indigenous groups, charitable organizations, faith-based organizations, professional associations, and foundations”. In both definitions, Civil Society is listed as essentially being defines as groups of one form or another. By those definitions, At-large and our components parts are certainly civil society, but the individuals whose interests we defend are not part of civil society per se. Thoughts? Alan Avast logo El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
Excellent analysis, as usual, JJ. The only trouble is a private sector-led ICANN amounts to an article of faith of the United States government. In fact from the start, this is was the announced goal. That playbook has not changed from inception and has been in plain sight all the time. Best, -Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 2:46 AM, Subrenat, Jean-Jacques <jjs@dyalog.net> wrote:
Alan,
to follow up on my previous email where I brought up the question of differing linguistic and cultural contexts, I'm glad to repeat that outside of the English-speaking world, "private sector" often means business, industry, commerce. I am aware that in North America and the UK, "private sector" generally describes non-government. (By the way, the US and UK practice of labeling sovereign states as "governments" has its own shortcomings, because in many countries and other languages, "government" is the executive branch elected to govern, whereas "sovereign state", or "state", designates the entire body politic, including all state services, the judicial system, etc.)
So, in many contexts worldwide, accepting the formulation "ICANN to be led by the private sector" would amount to acknowledging that, among theoretically equal stakeholders, business, industry and commerce would in fact enjoy a paramount status. In turn, such an interpretation could only lead (most) sovereign states to react (strongly) by demanding an equivalent enhancement of their powers. In any case, as has been consistently the case in major crises (e.g. world financial crisis in 2008, when some fraudulent banks were "too big to let die"), the general public bears the brunt. In the Internet sphere, the equivalent of the general public is (what I have consistently called) the Global Internet User.
Jean-Jacques.
----- Mail original ----- De: "Alberto Soto" <asoto@ibero-americano.org> À: "Alan Greenberg" <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>, "ALAC" < alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Envoyé: Mardi 1 Septembre 2015 03:12:13 Objet: Re: [ALAC] At-Large: Part of the Private Sector? Part of Civil Society?
Dear Alan, I did a semantic analysis, using the dictionary of the Royal Spanish Academy.
Public Sector: all public organizations and agencies, organizations and companies subject to them.
Private Sector: That is not public or state property, but belongs to individuals.
Society: natural grouping of people agreed that unit are different from each of the individuals, in order to meet, through mutual cooperation, all or any of the purposes of life.
Civil society, private sector, citizens and society relationships and private activities.
In the Latin world, we have two large sectors: the public sector (government) and the (non-governmental) Private Sector. In the latter enters the civil society and non-governmental sectors all we know.
This is quite consistent with the definition of the World Bank. Although I agree that it should include the end user.
In Argentina, the Law on Consumer Protection says in his article 1. This law aims to protect consumers or users. consumer is considered to the natural or legal person who acquires or uses, free of charge or for consideration, goods or services as an end in themselves or for their family or social group.
Here and all over the world, the end user has two defenders. One for when you have problems with goods or services; and we to defend their interests within ICANN.
But in my opinion, again, the end user must appear as such when the components of civil society are described.
Regards
Alberto
De: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] En nombre de Alan Greenberg Enviado el: lunes, 31 de agosto de 2015 12:59 p. m. Para: ALAC <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Asunto: [ALAC] At-Large: Part of the Private Sector? Part of Civil Society?
These two questions seem to be coming up regularly. The current draft proposal of the CCWG-Accountability refers to ICANN being leg by the "Private Sector (as opposed to the Public Sector - Governments), and includes us in the Civil society part of the private sector.
Looking at definitions can be useful. There are many of both terms.
The most common definition of the Private Sector says it is everything that is not funded or controlled by government. Many definitions even explicitly list individuals as part of it. That certainly includes us.
Some definitions talk about three groups, the public sector, the private sector (referring to for-profit organizations) and the "Voluntary Sector". The latter certainly includes the formal parts of At-Large, but really leaves individuals, who are no longer part of ANY of the sectors.
From my perspective, that means that if we are part of the "Private Sector", we better be explicitly listed as such.
I would appreciate hearing how these terms are defined in other languages and cultures.
The Wikipedia defines Civil Society as "aggregate of non-governmental organizations and institutions that manifest interests and will of citizens." Civil society includes the family and the private sphere, referred to as the "third sector" of society, distinct from government and business.
The World Bank has a more detailed definition: the term civil society to refer to the wide array of non-governmental and not-for-profit organizations that have a presence in public life, expressing the interests and values of their members or others, based on ethical, cultural, political, scientific, religious or philanthropic considerations. Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) therefore refer to a wide of array of organizations: community groups, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), labor unions, indigenous groups, charitable organizations, faith-based organizations, professional associations, and foundations”.
In both definitions, Civil Society is listed as essentially being defines as groups of one form or another. By those definitions, At-large and our components parts are certainly civil society, but the individuals whose interests we defend are not part of civil society per se.
Thoughts?
Alan
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_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...) _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac
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Thank you Carlton, my remarks were more prescriptive than descriptive: after all, the intertwined exercises on Transition of Oversight, and Accountability, provide the opportunity to think beyond traditional patterns, in Washington and elsewhere. As I remarked to one of our colleagues on another thread,
- "Civil society" may include individuals, but usually refers to organizations, typically NGOs; - "Global Internet user" designates individuals; - could we combine in one sentence "civil society" and "the global Internet user", so as to cover all the non-business and non-state ("government") segments?
And my latest suggestion was:
A formula such as "individual Internet users AND civil society" would allay the fears of those who see one or the other component as insufficiently representative.
Because of the connotation that "private sector" has acquired, mainly in the USA, I think Internet users around the world need to project their requirements, and perhaps "individual Internet users and civil society", though clumsy, would at least avoid the unfortunate ambiguities brought about by "private/public sectors". Could this put a bit of wind in the sails? Jean-Jacques. ----- Mail original ----- De: "Carlton Samuels" <carlton.samuels@gmail.com> À: "Jean-Jacques Subrenat" <jjs@dyalog.net> Cc: "Alberto Soto" <asoto@ibero-americano.org>, "ALAC" <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org>, "Alan Greenberg" <alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> Envoyé: Mercredi 2 Septembre 2015 21:21:08 Objet: Re: [ALAC] At-Large: Part of the Private Sector? Part of Civil Society? Excellent analysis, as usual, JJ. The only trouble is a private sector-led ICANN amounts to an article of faith of the United States government. In fact from the start, this is was the announced goal. That playbook has not changed from inception and has been in plain sight all the time. Best, -Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround ============================= On Tue, Sep 1, 2015 at 2:46 AM, Subrenat, Jean-Jacques < jjs@dyalog.net > wrote: Alan, to follow up on my previous email where I brought up the question of differing linguistic and cultural contexts, I'm glad to repeat that outside of the English-speaking world, "private sector" often means business, industry, commerce. I am aware that in North America and the UK, "private sector" generally describes non-government. (By the way, the US and UK practice of labeling sovereign states as "governments" has its own shortcomings, because in many countries and other languages, "government" is the executive branch elected to govern, whereas "sovereign state", or "state", designates the entire body politic, including all state services, the judicial system, etc.) So, in many contexts worldwide, accepting the formulation "ICANN to be led by the private sector" would amount to acknowledging that, among theoretically equal stakeholders, business, industry and commerce would in fact enjoy a paramount status. In turn, such an interpretation could only lead (most) sovereign states to react (strongly) by demanding an equivalent enhancement of their powers. In any case, as has been consistently the case in major crises (e.g. world financial crisis in 2008, when some fraudulent banks were "too big to let die"), the general public bears the brunt. In the Internet sphere, the equivalent of the general public is (what I have consistently called) the Global Internet User. Jean-Jacques. ----- Mail original ----- De: "Alberto Soto" < asoto@ibero-americano.org > À: "Alan Greenberg" < alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca >, "ALAC" < alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org > Envoyé: Mardi 1 Septembre 2015 03:12:13 Objet: Re: [ALAC] At-Large: Part of the Private Sector? Part of Civil Society? Dear Alan, I did a semantic analysis, using the dictionary of the Royal Spanish Academy. Public Sector: all public organizations and agencies, organizations and companies subject to them. Private Sector: That is not public or state property, but belongs to individuals. Society: natural grouping of people agreed that unit are different from each of the individuals, in order to meet, through mutual cooperation, all or any of the purposes of life. Civil society, private sector, citizens and society relationships and private activities. In the Latin world, we have two large sectors: the public sector (government) and the (non-governmental) Private Sector. In the latter enters the civil society and non-governmental sectors all we know. This is quite consistent with the definition of the World Bank. Although I agree that it should include the end user. In Argentina, the Law on Consumer Protection says in his article 1. This law aims to protect consumers or users. consumer is considered to the natural or legal person who acquires or uses, free of charge or for consideration, goods or services as an end in themselves or for their family or social group. Here and all over the world, the end user has two defenders. One for when you have problems with goods or services; and we to defend their interests within ICANN. But in my opinion, again, the end user must appear as such when the components of civil society are described. Regards Alberto De: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org ] En nombre de Alan Greenberg Enviado el: lunes, 31 de agosto de 2015 12:59 p. m. Para: ALAC < alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org > Asunto: [ALAC] At-Large: Part of the Private Sector? Part of Civil Society? These two questions seem to be coming up regularly. The current draft proposal of the CCWG-Accountability refers to ICANN being leg by the "Private Sector (as opposed to the Public Sector - Governments), and includes us in the Civil society part of the private sector. Looking at definitions can be useful. There are many of both terms. The most common definition of the Private Sector says it is everything that is not funded or controlled by government. Many definitions even explicitly list individuals as part of it. That certainly includes us. Some definitions talk about three groups, the public sector, the private sector (referring to for-profit organizations) and the "Voluntary Sector". The latter certainly includes the formal parts of At-Large, but really leaves individuals, who are no longer part of ANY of the sectors.
From my perspective, that means that if we are part of the "Private Sector", we better be explicitly listed as such.
I would appreciate hearing how these terms are defined in other languages and cultures. The Wikipedia defines Civil Society as "aggregate of non-governmental organizations and institutions that manifest interests and will of citizens.." Civil society includes the family and the private sphere, referred to as the "third sector" of society, distinct from government and business. The World Bank has a more detailed definition: the term civil society to refer to the wide array of non-governmental and not-for-profit organizations that have a presence in public life, expressing the interests and values of their members or others, based on ethical, cultural, political, scientific, religious or philanthropic considerations. Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) therefore refer to a wide of array of organizations: community groups, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), labor unions, indigenous groups, charitable organizations, faith-based organizations, professional associations, and foundations”. In both definitions, Civil Society is listed as essentially being defines as groups of one form or another. By those definitions, At-large and our components parts are certainly civil society, but the individuals whose interests we defend are not part of civil society per se. Thoughts? Alan Avast logo El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca de virus. www.avast.com _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...) _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac At-Large Online: http://www.atlarge.icann.org ALAC Working Wiki: https://community.icann.org/display/atlarge/At-Large+Advisory+Committee+(ALA...)
On Thu, Sep 3, 2015 at 2:35 AM, Subrenat, Jean-Jacques <jjs@dyalog.net> wrote:
I think Internet users around the world need to project their requirements, and perhaps "individual Internet users and civil society", though clumsy, would at least avoid the unfortunate ambiguities brought about by "private/public sectors".
Could this put a bit of wind in the sails?
Yessir. Might not be elegant but it is without ambiguity and guile. -Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
participants (7)
-
Alan Greenberg -
Alberto Soto -
Carlton Samuels -
Holly Raiche -
Jimmy Schulz -
Subrenat, Jean-Jacques -
Wolf Ludwig