Alberto: Oh yes. I readily acknowledge it might take some effort in thinking to connect Argentine definitions of a 'user' in law which, in evidence, you so enthusiastically embraced to the discriminatory - and ,IMHO - shabby intent of the attack on Lance Hinds' work and welfare. In our corner of the world and purely on exercising the rule of reason, this would be clear evidence of intellectual dishonesty. It was a teachable moment. I shall take the time to catalog the evidence of similar transgressions on reason and judgment in due course. Watch this this space. -Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 10:48 PM, <asoto@ibero-americano.org> wrote:

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Subject: Re: At-Large: Part of the private sector? Part of Civil Society? From: asoto@ibero-americano.org

Dear Carlton, regret your mistake, this is the box of apples and pears have brought. Apologies to the rest of the list. Best regards

Alberto Soto

-----Original Message----- From: lac-discuss-es-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto: lac-discuss-es-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On behalf of carlton.samuels@gmail.com Posted on: Wednesday, September 2, 2015 4:19 pm To: lac-discuss-es@atlarge-lists.icann.org CC: lac-discuss-en@atlarge-lists.icann.org; ALAC < alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [lac-discuss-en] At-Large: Part of the private sector? Part of Civil Society?

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Subject: Re: At-Large: Part of the private sector? Part of Civil Society? From: carlton.samuels@gmail.com

Alberto: Here it is, presumably, citing Argentina law:

'* In Argentina, the Law on Consumer Protection, says in Article 1. This law aims to protect consumers or users. consumer considers the natural or legal person who acquires or uses, for free or for consideration, goods or services as an end in themselves or their family or social group. *

* Here and throughout the world, the end user has two defenders. One for when you have problems with products or services; and to defend their interests within ICANN. '*

It would have been helpful if this bit of scholarship was exerted belonging to the charges against Lance Hinds in the last elections [in] LACRALO action.

I guess you see the ALS Iberoamericana as a defender of consumer and user rights ICANN, yes?

So now, under Argentine law, consumers and users are defined and co- recognized as both "natural and legal persons". Think about the amount of pain I could have saved ourselves a little demonstration of leadership? You I could have saved all of us to hear from the dullard world which often disguise opinion as reported in LACRALO.

That view of the dullard originated in Argentina makes me doubly sure what happened in this election was a conspiracy failed and appearance ignorance.

Ritz-Carlton Samuels

============================== Carlton A Samuels Cell: 876-818-1799 * Strategy, Planning, Government, evaluation and delivery * =============================

On Mon, August 31, 2015 at 8:12 pm, Alberto Soto < asoto@ibero-americano.org> wrote:

...

Dear Alan, I did a semantic analysis, using the dictionary of the Royal Spanish Academy.

Public Sector: all public organizations and agencies, organizations and companies subject to them.

Private Sector: That is not public or state property, but belongs to individuals.

Society: natural grouping of people agreed that unit are different from each of the individuals, in order to meet, through mutual cooperation, all or any of the purposes of life.

Civil society, private sector, citizens and society relationships and private activities.

In the Latin world, we have two large sectors: the public sector (government) and the (non-governmental) Private Sector. In the latter enters the civil society and non-governmental sectors all we know.

This is quite consistent with the definition of the World Bank. Although I agree that it should include the end user.

In Argentina, the Law on Consumer Protection says in his article 1. This law aims to protect consumers or users. consumer is considered to the natural or legal person who acquires or uses, free of charge or for consideration, goods or services as an end in themselves or for their family or social group.

Here and all over the world, the end user has two defenders. One for when you have problems with goods or services; and we to defend their interests within ICANN.

But in my opinion, again, the end user must appear as such when the components of civil society are described.

Regards

Alberto

*De:* alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] *En nombre de *Alan Greenberg *Enviado el:* lunes, 31 de agosto de 2015 12:59 p. m. *Para:* ALAC <alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org> *Asunto:* [ALAC] At-Large: Part of the Private Sector? Part of Civil Society?

These two questions seem to be coming up regularly. The current draft proposal of the CCWG-Accountability refers to ICANN being leg by the "Private Sector (as opposed to the Public Sector - Governments), and includes us in the Civil society part of the private sector.

Looking at definitions can be useful. There are many of both terms.

The most common definition of the Private Sector says it is everything that is not funded or controlled by government. Many definitions even explicitly list individuals as part of it. That certainly includes us.

Some definitions talk about three groups, the public sector, the private sector (referring to for-profit organizations) and the "Voluntary Sector". The latter certainly includes the formal parts of At-Large, but really leaves individuals, who are no longer part of ANY of the sectors.

From my perspective, that means that if we are part of the "Private Sector", we better be explicitly listed as such.

I would appreciate hearing how these terms are defined in other languages and cultures.

The Wikipedia defines Civil Society as "aggregate of non-governmental organizations and institutions that manifest interests and will of citizens." Civil society includes the family and the private sphere, referred to as the "third sector" of society, distinct from government and business.

The World Bank has a more detailed definition: the term civil society to refer to the wide array of *non-governmental and not-for-profit organizations that have a presence in public life, expressing the interests and values of their members or others, based on ethical, cultural, political, scientific, religious or philanthropic considerations. Civil Society Organizations (CSOs) therefore refer to a wide of array of organizations: community groups, non-governmental organizations (NGOs), labor unions, indigenous groups, charitable organizations, faith-based organizations, professional associations, and foundations†.*

In both definitions, Civil Society is listed as essentially being defines as groups of one form or another. By those definitions, At-large and our components parts are certainly civil society, but the individuals whose interests we defend are not part of civil society per se.

Thoughts?

Alan

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