Adam's advice is right on the money and I would suggest we proceed as advised. FWIW, the Geo Regions debate gets even more woolly. Lots of Caribbean countries, including Jamaica, are in the ARIN space for numbers distribution; that is, the North American RIR. Yet we caucus as At-Large with LACRALO. It gets even more confusing with the Cayman Islands. They're 45 mins from KIN by jet aircraft and at one time, they were governed from Jamaica. Their political affiliation as a British Overseas Territory makes them from an At-Large perspective EURALO. Yet they are covered by ARIN for numbers administration. Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround ============================= On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 12:00 PM, < apac-discuss-request@atlarge-lists.icann.org> wrote:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: ALS Application from the Information Policy Analytical Center (Adam Peake) 2. Re: ALS Application from the Information Policy Analytical Center (Adam Peake)
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Message: 1 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 18:49:16 +0900 From: Adam Peake <ajp@glocom.ac.jp> To: S?bastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com> Cc: ICANN At-Large Staff <staff@atlarge.icann.org>, Wolf Ludwig <wolf.ludwig@comunica-ch.net>, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com>, apralo <apac-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [APAC-Discuss] ALS Application from the Information Policy Analytical Center Message-ID: <AANLkTimHBuuhkMFkfLaSq1OgvnANe++XqgbSAbbgFFck@mail.gmail.com<AANLkTimHBuuhkMFkfLaSq1OgvnANe%2B%2BXqgbSAbbgFFck@mail.gmail.com>
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Seems to me it would be best to keep any discussion about regions within the process to discuss regions, CLO and Carlton our reps in that process.
If we start making rules as we go along then it will just confuse everyone. In this case the applicant ALS is happy to be in APRALO, so let's just make sure regional advice is done on time and we can, hopefully, accept another member.
Applicant's initial confusion perhaps because Azerbaijan is part of RIPE-NCC territory? But doesn't really matter, if they are not asking to be in EARALO why should we care at this time.
Seems they may have some connection with the Global Internet Policy Initiative (GIPI), George Sadowsky ran that at one time.
Adam
On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 4:52 AM, S?bastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com> wrote:
Dear Fouad, Thanks for your proposal. It is always good to see good willing between At-Large regions to find "intelligent" way to work jointly. I will be happy to discuss that issue in a common call to see the possibilities. All the best
S?bastien Bachollet sebastien@bachollet.com +33 6 07 66 89 33
-----Message d'origine----- De?: Fouad Bajwa [mailto:fouadbajwa@gmail.com] Envoy??: vendredi 30 juillet 2010 16:33 ??: Matthias Langenegger Cc?: Hong Xue; apralo; Pavan Budhrani; ICANN At-Large Staff; Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; Wolf Ludwig; S?bastien Bachollet Objet?: Re: ALS Application from the Information Policy Analytical Center
Dear Matthias,
We will have to do our ground work and my intention is not to announce another geographic region on our own. My intention is for APRALO and EURALO to work on this case we have in our hands and find a compromise or proposal that we can then make to ALAC so we are following some liaison opportunity here between the two RALO's here and I am interested in exploring this case further as much as possible because this is a real issue that we have to resolve within our community.
Once again, I request the staff to await the community's discussion and suggestions on this issue.
Thank you and take care!
Best Regards.
2010/7/30 Matthias Langenegger <matthias.langenegger@icann.org>:
Dear Fouad,
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
ICANN's geographic regions have been subject for debate for a long time and resulted in the creation of a working group to discuss the current framework and make recommendations on how to improve it. The working group recently published its comprehensive Draft Interim Report (see http://www.icann.org/en/announcements/announcement-2-28may10- en.htm#foot3)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr and Carlton Samuels are the At-Large representatives in the Geographic Regions WG. I suggest that we take up issues with regards to the current ICANN geographic regions framework directly with Cheryl and Carlton.
The ICANN regional framework applies to all ICANN constituencies and it is not currently possible for RALOs to define their geographic boundaries. The Memoranda of Understanding between APRALO and EURALO specifically refer to "Geographic Region as defined by ICANN" (Art 1.2.2 of EURALO MoU and Art. 2.1 of APRALO MoU).
We have contacted the applicant and informed them about the issues outlined above. The applicant confirmed that he would like to proceed with the application process to join APRALO.
I hope this is helpful.
Best Regards, -- Matthias Langenegger Manager, At-Large Regional Affairs Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)
Email: matthias.langenegger@icann.org Main Tel: +41 (79) 644 65 35 Fax: +41 (22) 594 85 44 Skype ID: matthiaslangenegger
On 30/07/2010 15:30, "Fouad Bajwa" <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Matthias,
I would like to step in on this issue and search for a solution since within this framework of community consensus, I believe that there are always some means available to reach a compromise between RALO's on issues where exceptions can be explored with community consent. On this issue, I would like to get in touch with EURALO.
When I look at Armenia and that is a region present on the edge of Europe or the bridge to Europe from Turkey, only Turkey is the country that is both in Asia and Europe and history maintains that the Ottoman Empire was always in conflict with Armenia because it was not possible to find path to Europe otherwise. Armenia exists as EuroAsia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia therefore I will treat this as a EurAsia issue and not an Asian issue only.
The documents shared are not rules, they are more or less principles that in principle we recognize these regions in the way links point to but we as a community have a responsibility to also facilitate ALSs where otherwise we are unable to find a possible equally acceptable solution. We as an At-Large community can work together to request a change of this principle with respect to working with ICANN to reach a compromise because this is need-to-need based.
Instead of giving a sweeping statement to revoke this party from joining APRALO, I would like to take this issue up with Wolf Ludwig, Sebastian and Olivier before we reach a final decision and the fact remains that the final decision remains with the APRALO community and the fact also remains that RALO's have an Inter-RALO link and we can jointly resolve issues with mutual consent/consensus.
I would like to request staff to await a final decision regarding this interested ALS party from both APRALO and EURALO as we make contact with eachother taking some time to resolve this issue within the community.
In consensus oriented groupings and networks, we have to work together to workout possibilities and mutual opportunities.
Best
Fouad Bajwa
On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Matthias Langenegger <matthias.langenegger@icann.org> wrote:
Thank you, Hong.
We will inform the applicant that it is unfortunately not currently possible to choose the region they would like to join. According to ICANN's geographic regions, IPAC is part of the APRALO region (see full list under: http://www.icann.org/en/meetings/montreal/geo-regions-topic.htm).
ICANN's Geographic Regions Working Group has done an extensive review on the current geographic model and has recently published its Latest Draft Interim Report (see http://www.icann.org/en/announcements/announcement-2-28may10- en.htm#foot3)
Cheryl represents At-Large in the Geographic Regions WG along with Carlton Samuels.
Best Regards, -- Matthias Langenegger Manager, At-Large Regional Affairs Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)
Email: matthias.langenegger@icann.org Main Tel: +41 (79) 644 65 35 Fax: +41 (22) 594 85 44 Skype ID: matthiaslangenegger
On 27/07/2010 10:20, "Hong Xue" <hongxueipr@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for sending us the ALS application to the list. I've a > question: if we take a look at Objective part Q.3, it seems that the > applicant is based in Europe and interested in joining EURALO. Did I > overlook anything? > > Hong > > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:28 PM, ICANN At-Large Staff > <staff@atlarge.icann.org> wrote: >> Dear all, >> >> This is to inform you that we received an ALS application from the >> Information Policy Analytical Center. It is based in Baku, Azerbaijan and >> would be a member of APRALO if accepted. >> >> Please find the application form attached. Due diligence for this >> application will be provided to you in due course. >> >> -- >> Regards, >> >> Heidi Ullrich, Matthias Langenegger, Seth Greene, Gisella Gruber- White, >> Marilyn Vernon, Kristina Nordstr?m >> ICANN At-Large Staff >> >> email: staff[at]atlarge.icann.org >> website: www.atlarge.icann.org >> > >
-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa
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Homepage for the region: http://www.apralo.org
------------------------------
Message: 2 Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2010 20:11:03 +0900 From: Adam Peake <ajp@glocom.ac.jp> To: S?bastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com> Cc: ICANN At-Large Staff <staff@atlarge.icann.org>, Wolf Ludwig <wolf.ludwig@comunica-ch.net>, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl@gih.com>, apralo <apac-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org> Subject: Re: [APAC-Discuss] ALS Application from the Information Policy Analytical Center Message-ID: <AANLkTimH0+m3Zqopam_8J7EwE4XKjgst-sFWp027SNmk@mail.gmail.com<AANLkTimH0%2Bm3Zqopam_8J7EwE4XKjgst-sFWp027SNmk@mail.gmail.com>
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On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 7:12 PM, S?bastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com> wrote:
Hello Adam, But all the contrary. They are asking to be Euralo
I thought the situation was that they asked to join EURALO (as shown in their application), but staff told them of ICANN's regions and they agreed to APRALO, quoting Matthias:
"We have contacted the applicant and informed them about the issues outlined above. The applicant confirmed that he would like to proceed with the application process to join APRALO."
If they are actually insisting on being European then we have an issue. If not, then let's leave individual matters alone and continue through the regional review.
Thanks,
Adam
and we tell them (it is an action item of the last week call of ALAC) that they can't, they need to be APRALO. It is why opening the discussion as suggested by Fouad is a good idea, not the change the regions but to see how we can accommodate part of their wishes. Azerbaijan is also member of Council of Europe.
To start to push some ideas. IPAC become if APRALO and ALAC are OK member of APRALO. Regarding votes, elections... they need to do that with APRALO. And if they want, they can participate in any discussion within Euralo. It could be a first step to accommodate them without changing any rules. All the best
S?bastien Bachollet sebastien@bachollet.com +33 6 07 66 89 33
-----Message d'origine----- De?: apeake@gmail.com [mailto:apeake@gmail.com] De la part de Adam Peake Envoy??: samedi 31 juillet 2010 11:49 ??: S?bastien Bachollet Cc?: Fouad Bajwa; Matthias Langenegger; ICANN At-Large Staff; Wolf Ludwig; Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; apralo Objet?: Re: [APAC-Discuss] ALS Application from the Information Policy Analytical Center
Seems to me it would be best to keep any discussion about regions within the process to discuss regions, CLO and Carlton our reps in that process.
If we start making rules as we go along then it will just confuse everyone. ?In this case the applicant ALS is happy to be in APRALO, so let's just make sure regional advice is done on time and we can, hopefully, accept another member.
Applicant's initial confusion perhaps because Azerbaijan is part of RIPE-NCC territory? But doesn't really matter, if they are not asking to be in EARALO why should we care at this time.
Seems they may have some connection with the Global Internet Policy Initiative (GIPI), George Sadowsky ran that at one time.
Adam
On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 4:52 AM, S?bastien Bachollet <sebastien@bachollet.com> wrote:
Dear Fouad, Thanks for your proposal. It is always good to see good willing between At-Large regions to find "intelligent" way to work jointly. I will be happy to discuss that issue in a common call to see the possibilities. All the best
S?bastien Bachollet sebastien@bachollet.com +33 6 07 66 89 33
-----Message d'origine----- De?: Fouad Bajwa [mailto:fouadbajwa@gmail.com] Envoy??: vendredi 30 juillet 2010 16:33 ??: Matthias Langenegger Cc?: Hong Xue; apralo; Pavan Budhrani; ICANN At-Large Staff; Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond; Wolf Ludwig; S?bastien Bachollet Objet?: Re: ALS Application from the Information Policy Analytical Center
Dear Matthias,
We will have to do our ground work and my intention is not to announce another geographic region on our own. My intention is for APRALO and EURALO to work on this case we have in our hands and find a compromise or proposal that we can then make to ALAC so we are following some liaison opportunity here between the two RALO's here and I am interested in exploring this case further as much as possible because this is a real issue that we have to resolve within our community.
Once again, I request the staff to await the community's discussion and suggestions on this issue.
Thank you and take care!
Best Regards.
2010/7/30 Matthias Langenegger <matthias.langenegger@icann.org>:
Dear Fouad,
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
ICANN's geographic regions have been subject for debate for a long time and resulted in the creation of a working group to discuss the current framework and make recommendations on how to improve it. The working group recently published its comprehensive Draft Interim Report (see http://www.icann.org/en/announcements/announcement-2-28may10- en.htm#foot3)
Cheryl Langdon-Orr and Carlton Samuels are the At-Large representatives in the Geographic Regions WG. I suggest that we take up issues with regards to the current ICANN geographic regions framework directly with Cheryl and Carlton.
The ICANN regional framework applies to all ICANN constituencies and it is not currently possible for RALOs to define their geographic boundaries. The Memoranda of Understanding between APRALO and EURALO specifically refer to "Geographic Region as defined by ICANN" (Art 1.2.2 of EURALO MoU and Art. 2.1 of APRALO MoU).
We have contacted the applicant and informed them about the issues outlined above. The applicant confirmed that he would like to proceed with the application process to join APRALO.
I hope this is helpful.
Best Regards, -- Matthias Langenegger Manager, At-Large Regional Affairs Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)
Email: matthias.langenegger@icann.org Main Tel: +41 (79) 644 65 35 Fax: +41 (22) 594 85 44 Skype ID: matthiaslangenegger
On 30/07/2010 15:30, "Fouad Bajwa" <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Matthias, > > I would like to step in on this issue and search for a solution since > within this framework of community consensus, I believe that there are > always some means available to reach a compromise between RALO's on > issues where exceptions can be explored with community consent. On > this issue, I would like to get in touch with EURALO. > > When I look at Armenia and that is a region present on the edge of > Europe or the bridge to Europe from Turkey, only Turkey is the country > that is both in Asia and Europe and history maintains that the Ottoman > Empire was always in conflict with Armenia because it was not possible > to find path to Europe otherwise. Armenia exists as EuroAsia > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenia therefore I will treat this as a > EurAsia issue and not an Asian issue only. > > The documents shared are not rules, they are more or less principles > that in principle we recognize these regions in the way links point to > but we as a community have a responsibility to also facilitate ALSs > where otherwise we are unable to find a possible equally acceptable > solution. We as an At-Large community can work together to request a > change of this principle with respect to working with ICANN to reach a > compromise because this is need-to-need based. > > Instead of giving a sweeping statement to revoke this party from > joining APRALO, I would like to take this issue up with Wolf Ludwig, > Sebastian and Olivier before we reach a final decision and the fact > remains that the final decision remains with the APRALO community and > the fact also remains that RALO's have an Inter-RALO link and we can > jointly resolve issues with mutual consent/consensus. > > I would like to request staff to await a final decision regarding this > interested ALS party from both APRALO and EURALO as we make contact > with eachother taking some time to resolve this issue within the > community. > > In consensus oriented groupings and networks, we have to work together > to workout possibilities and mutual opportunities. > > Best > > Fouad Bajwa > > > On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:09 AM, Matthias Langenegger > <matthias.langenegger@icann.org> wrote: >> Thank you, Hong. >> >> We will inform the applicant that it is unfortunately not currently possible >> to choose the region they would like to join. According to ICANN's >> geographic regions, IPAC is part of the APRALO region (see full list under: >> http://www.icann.org/en/meetings/montreal/geo-regions- topic.htm). >> >> ICANN's Geographic Regions Working Group has done an extensive review on the >> current geographic model and has recently published its Latest Draft Interim >> Report (see >> http://www.icann.org/en/announcements/announcement-2-28may10- en.htm#foot3) >> >> Cheryl represents At-Large in the Geographic Regions WG along with Carlton >> Samuels. >> >> Best Regards, >> -- >> Matthias Langenegger >> Manager, At-Large Regional Affairs >> Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) >> >> Email: matthias.langenegger@icann.org >> Main Tel: +41 (79) 644 65 35 >> Fax: +41 (22) 594 85 44 >> Skype ID: matthiaslangenegger >> >> >> >> On 27/07/2010 10:20, "Hong Xue" <hongxueipr@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Thanks for sending us the ALS application to the list. I've a >>> question: if we take a look at Objective part Q.3, it seems that the >>> applicant is based in Europe and interested in joining EURALO. Did I >>> overlook anything? >>> >>> Hong >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:28 PM, ICANN At-Large Staff >>> <staff@atlarge.icann.org> wrote: >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> This is to inform you that we received an ALS application from the >>>> Information Policy Analytical Center. It is based in Baku, Azerbaijan and >>>> would be a member of APRALO if accepted. >>>> >>>> Please find the application form attached. Due diligence for this >>>> application will be provided to you in due course. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Heidi Ullrich, Matthias Langenegger, Seth Greene, Gisella Gruber- White, >>>> Marilyn Vernon, Kristina Nordstr?m >>>> ICANN At-Large Staff >>>> >>>> email: staff[at]atlarge.icann.org >>>> website: www.atlarge.icann.org >>>> >>> >>> >> >>
-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa
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