Hello Could there be a section in the ALS application form the applicant to furnish a list of members, each listed with some basic particulars as their profession, the name of the organization they belong to, their position and contact information? That would give us an idea about the diversity of the member base of the proposed ALS. Thank you. Sivasubramanian M On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Marilyn,

Thank you for the update on the application submission by Net Mission. We look forward to the due diligence completion and are positive about Net Mission Hong Kong's possible participation in APRALO.

Best

Fouad

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:09 AM, Marilyn Vernon <staff@atlarge.icann.org> wrote:

...

Dear all,

This is to inform you that we received an ALS application from Netmission.ASIA. It is based in Tsim Sha Tsui, Hong Kong and would be a member of APRALO if accepted.

Please find the application form attached. The regional liaison for Asia Pacific has been informed and will provide us with due diligence for this application in due course.

-- Regards,

Heidi Ullrich, Gisella Gruber-White, Seth Greene, Marilyn Vernon ICANN At-Large Staff

_______________________________________________ APAC-Discuss mailing list APAC-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/apac-discuss

Homepage for the region: http://www.apralo.org

Hi Siva what goes into being an ALS application form for ICANN is decided by ALAC and approved / negotiated with ICANN (usually Legal advise the Board on this) and ALAC go through considerable work with ICANN Legal on ramifications, purpose and effect of any such changes to ALS application forms and the processes associated with them... FYI the last major overhaul of this system and forms started in 2007 at the LA Meeting and was completed in 2008... and was in part responding to a matter of complaint (against ALAC) that had been dealt with by the then ICANN Ombudsman... and it is from his recommendations that we also strive so carefully to review ALS applications in such a timely manner and have in the public record the status and progression of received applications. So if a Region (such as APRALO) believe changes to or additional information is desirable to assist in the role that the RALO Officers have in conducting their part in the Regional Advice on an ALS applicant (which is done after the Due Diligence phase), then the way to get this to happen is to request the RALO to have these suggestions and the rational etc., for them brought forward to the ALAC and to request a process of ALS application form (and possible processing standards etc.,) set for a formal review... Do let me know if I can assist APRALO with doing any of that... Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO) On 6 April 2011 03:07, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello

Could there be a section in the ALS application form the applicant to furnish a list of members, each listed with some basic particulars as their profession, the name of the organization they belong to, their position and contact information? That would give us an idea about the diversity of the member base of the proposed ALS.

Thank you.

Sivasubramanian M

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Marilyn,

Thank you for the update on the application submission by Net Mission. We look forward to the due diligence completion and are positive about Net Mission Hong Kong's possible participation in APRALO.

Best

Fouad

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:09 AM, Marilyn Vernon <staff@atlarge.icann.org> wrote:

...

Dear all,

This is to inform you that we received an ALS application from Netmission.ASIA. It is based in Tsim Sha Tsui, Hong Kong and would be a member of APRALO if accepted.

Please find the application form attached. The regional liaison for Asia Pacific has been informed and will provide us with due diligence for this application in due course.

-- Regards,

Heidi Ullrich, Gisella Gruber-White, Seth Greene, Marilyn Vernon ICANN At-Large Staff

_______________________________________________ APAC-Discuss mailing list APAC-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/apac-discuss

Homepage for the region: http://www.apralo.org

_______________________________________________ APAC-Discuss mailing list APAC-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/apac-discuss

Homepage for the region: http://www.apralo.org

Fouad you outline many of the concerns ALAC would be discussing and debating if such a proposal for change was ever to get that far and of course we would also no doubt need to audit changes and claims made in application of existing ALSes (just to be fair) Happy Google searching on all the Members we could list for ISOC-AU and indeed the Membership pf the Organisational Members we list I think you see the tone of my personal view on this... BUT should APRALO desire a change to these ALS application forms you now know how that would need to be approached if it were to have any chance of it happening... Also note please the Criteria for becoming an ALS does not discuss the need for "members" per se at all... see http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm but rather the criteria is that the minimum standards ARE : *Minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure:* 1. Commit to supporting individual Internet users' informed participation in ICANN by distributing to individual constituents/members information on relevant ICANN activities and issues, offering Internet-based mechanisms that enable discussions of one or more of these activities and issues among individual constituents/members, and involving individual constituents/members in relevant ICANN policy development, discussions and decisions. 2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region. 3. Be self-supporting (not rely on ICANN for funding). 4. Post on the Internet (on the ALAC's website or elsewhere) publicly-accessible, current information about the ALS's goals, structure, description of constituent group(s)/membership, working mechanisms, leadership, and contact(s). 5. Assist the RALO in performing its function FROM http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm As well as "Guidelines for Evaluating an ALS" document where the matters of 'Membership' etc., (amongst other matters) is outlined in full, EN version is found at https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/2263023/ALAC-2007-SD-2-Rev7... Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO) On 6 April 2011 10:22, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Cheryl and all,

Thank you for sharing this in much detail as it adds to my knowledge as well about how the due diligence works. I believe it is crucial to note here that if the process got involved in checking with each individual their background, that would be first an invasion on one's privacy and secondly it would become a hassle for such a process to fulfill what it is objectively designed and structured to do.

I want to take a brief moment here to explain how I look at applications for joining ALAC through APRALO:

As far as Net Mission application is concerned I believe that since Siva was part of the ICANN fellowship program and there were "adopted fellows" this time from Net Mission in the San Francisco meeting, and I was able to attend most of those fellowship meetings as well as Olivier, the two participants from Net Mission did share quite some information during my interactions. I got to meet the group during the IGF in Lithuania as well. Its important to note that these young participants have found their path in ICANN through ALAC and APRALO.

Another thing to note is that Net Mission Ambassadors are very vocal, transparent and public. Two members participated in the APRALO meeting and I believe Siva took the kind liberty of introducing them in the meeting. One of the ambassador, Michelle Qin has also blogged about her experience at http://join.ust.hk/blog/michelle-qin/40th-icann-conference-san-francisco. Interesting when we do a search with the names provided in the application such as Richard Cheng the following information pops up http://icannwiki.com/index.php/Richard_Cheng.

Each member listed in the application displays significant participation within ICANN or IGF processes such as Bianca Ho was participating in the IGF and this the workshop officially approved and delivered: http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/component/chronocontact/?chronoformname=WSPro... If any of our members would like more proof, Net Mission's annual report is a very good evidence of what all these members do:

http://www.ycig.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/NM-annual-report-2009-10-eng-... . In fact each member in that list has details on the web and if I wander to Yvonne Lee, search returns http://sites.google.com/site/yvonneseportfoliobackup/page. These members appear in very good standing, active and I would like to hear their young point of views on Internet user related issues.

Personally speaking, checking on every member of a given ALS application would cause a breach of privacy and on an my own personal individual basis I would not support such a practice neither encourage it within APRALO though consensus is a separate subject.

Maybe such would be otherwise if we initiated the inclusion of individual membership in the future because then an individual would have to go through due diligence. I still have to seek guidance from Cheryl and Olivier in this matter on how to structure such an option in my proposal to APRALO in the near future.

I look forward to Net Mission's application receiving due diligence and it would indeed be a pleasure to meet up with these young leaders again in our interactions during the Singapore meeting.

Take care all.

-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi Siva what goes into being an ALS application form for ICANN is decided by ALAC and approved / negotiated with ICANN (usually Legal advise the Board on this) and ALAC go through considerable work with ICANN Legal on ramifications, purpose and effect of any such changes to ALS application forms and the processes associated with them...

FYI the last major overhaul of this system and forms started in 2007 at the LA Meeting and was completed in 2008... and was in part responding to a matter of complaint (against ALAC) that had been dealt with by the then ICANN Ombudsman... and it is from his recommendations that we also strive so carefully to review ALS applications in such a timely manner and have in the public record the status and progression of received applications.

So if a Region (such as APRALO) believe changes to or additional information is desirable to assist in the role that the RALO Officers have in conducting their part in the Regional Advice on an ALS applicant (which is done after the Due Diligence phase), then the way to get this to happen is to request the RALO to have these suggestions and the rational etc., for them brought forward to the ALAC and to request a process of ALS application form (and possible processing standards etc.,) set for a formal review...

Do let me know if I can assist APRALO with doing any of that...

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)

On 6 April 2011 03:07, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hello

Could there be a section in the ALS application form the applicant to furnish a list of members, each listed with some basic particulars as their profession, the name of the organization they belong to, their position and contact information? That would give us an idea about the diversity of the member base of the proposed ALS.

Thank you.

Sivasubramanian M

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Marilyn,

Thank you for the update on the application submission by Net Mission. We look forward to the due diligence completion and are positive about Net Mission Hong Kong's possible participation in APRALO.

Best

Fouad

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:09 AM, Marilyn Vernon < staff@atlarge.icann.org> wrote:

...

Dear all,

This is to inform you that we received an ALS application from Netmission.ASIA. It is based in Tsim Sha Tsui, Hong Kong and would be a member of APRALO if accepted.

Please find the application form attached. The regional liaison for Asia Pacific has been informed and will provide us with due diligence for this application in due course.

-- Regards,

Heidi Ullrich, Gisella Gruber-White, Seth Greene, Marilyn Vernon ICANN At-Large Staff

_______________________________________________

Dear Cheryl, Fouad, On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:13 AM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Cheryl,

Indeed, your detailed explanation of the question in argument gives me complete guidance and I had also stepped towards referring to these guidelines laying out the minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure.

Surely and firmly, I wouldn't want ALAC to go that way at all especially because of APRALO.

There are more pressing issues at hand in APRALO to work with and I would definitely not be looking towards triggering any such arguments within ALAC.

Once again I thank you for sharing your experienced guidance with me and others on the list and I hope this issue now stands resolved as to a good topic for discussion but not necessary to take forward unless it comes up in the APRALO meeting and should it be discussed and find the need for further exploration, which personally I believe should not be the case.

As a concluding remark, I believe Siva being a colleague fellow of the Net Mission Ambassadors and actually also introducing some of them to APRALO in the SF APRALO meeting shows that he very well had the knowledge of Net Mission members and participants. Secondly, if we all follow the Asia Pacific IGF, the secondary application in the application Elaine Cheng was one of the organizers of the AP-IGF: http://rigf.asia/sponsors-and-supporters/ during which some of our ALAC and APRALO members were also present.

I am not opposing the Netmission application here. What I observed is that this application and most ALS applications are short of a list of members and some basic details. My observation is not to be interpreted as a suggestion to do a due diligence on each and every member, which is what appears to be Fouad's interpretation "if the process got involved in checking with each individual their

background, that would be first an invasion on one's privacy and secondly it would become a hassle for such a process to fulfill what it is objectively designed and structured to do "

That is not what I have implied. Let's think of an imaginary situation. If I were to put up an ALS application, with my company employees as members, how would APRALO / ALAC understand the absence of diversity? If the member list is furnished in the format Name + Company + City + contact information + any other organizational affiliation + some information about the member / officer's interest in ICANN AT-Large, it would become easier to look at the list and at a quick glance assess if there is a balance. This would not be an extraordinarily difficult change for the RALO and ALAC to adopt and call for. Thank you Sivasubramanian M

I would consider this argument concluded and apologize for the attention it drew from everyone's time.

-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:08 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Fouad you outline many of the concerns ALAC would be discussing and debating if such a proposal for change was ever to get that far and of course we would also no doubt need to audit changes and claims made in application of existing ALSes (just to be fair) Happy Google searching on all the Members we could list for ISOC-AU and indeed the Membership pf the Organisational Members we list I think you see the tone of my personal view on this... BUT should APRALO desire a change to these ALS application forms you now know how that would need to be approached if it were to have any chance of it happening... Also note please the Criteria for becoming an ALS does not discuss the need for "members" per se at all... see http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm but rather the criteria is that the minimum standards ARE :

Minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure:

Commit to supporting individual Internet users' informed participation in ICANN by distributing to individual constituents/members information on relevant ICANN activities and issues, offering Internet-based mechanisms that enable discussions of one or more of these activities and issues among individual constituents/members, and involving individual constituents/members in relevant ICANN policy development, discussions and decisions. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region. Be self-supporting (not rely on ICANN for funding). Post on the Internet (on the ALAC's website or elsewhere) publicly-accessible, current information about the ALS's goals, structure, description of constituent group(s)/membership, working mechanisms, leadership, and contact(s). Assist the RALO in performing its function FROM http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm

As well as "Guidelines for Evaluating an ALS" document where the matters of 'Membership' etc., (amongst other matters) is outlined in full, EN version is found at https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/2263023/ALAC-2007-SD-2-Rev7...

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)

On 6 April 2011 10:22, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Cheryl and all,

Thank you for sharing this in much detail as it adds to my knowledge as well about how the due diligence works. I believe it is crucial to note here that if the process got involved in checking with each individual their background, that would be first an invasion on one's privacy and secondly it would become a hassle for such a process to fulfill what it is objectively designed and structured to do.

I want to take a brief moment here to explain how I look at applications for joining ALAC through APRALO:

As far as Net Mission application is concerned I believe that since Siva was part of the ICANN fellowship program and there were "adopted fellows" this time from Net Mission in the San Francisco meeting, and I was able to attend most of those fellowship meetings as well as Olivier, the two participants from Net Mission did share quite some information during my interactions. I got to meet the group during the IGF in Lithuania as well. Its important to note that these young participants have found their path in ICANN through ALAC and APRALO.

Another thing to note is that Net Mission Ambassadors are very vocal, transparent and public. Two members participated in the APRALO meeting and I believe Siva took the kind liberty of introducing them in the meeting. One of the ambassador, Michelle Qin has also blogged about her experience at

http://join.ust.hk/blog/michelle-qin/40th-icann-conference-san-francisco.

...

Interesting when we do a search with the names provided in the application such as Richard Cheng the following information pops up http://icannwiki.com/index.php/Richard_Cheng.

Each member listed in the application displays significant participation within ICANN or IGF processes such as Bianca Ho was participating in the IGF and this the workshop officially approved and delivered:

http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/component/chronocontact/?chronoformname=WSPro...

...

If any of our members would like more proof, Net Mission's annual report is a very good evidence of what all these members do:

http://www.ycig.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/NM-annual-report-2009-10-eng-... .

...

In fact each member in that list has details on the web and if I wander to Yvonne Lee, search returns http://sites.google.com/site/yvonneseportfoliobackup/page. These members appear in very good standing, active and I would like to hear their young point of views on Internet user related issues.

Personally speaking, checking on every member of a given ALS application would cause a breach of privacy and on an my own personal individual basis I would not support such a practice neither encourage it within APRALO though consensus is a separate subject.

Maybe such would be otherwise if we initiated the inclusion of individual membership in the future because then an individual would have to go through due diligence. I still have to seek guidance from Cheryl and Olivier in this matter on how to structure such an option in my proposal to APRALO in the near future.

I look forward to Net Mission's application receiving due diligence and it would indeed be a pleasure to meet up with these young leaders again in our interactions during the Singapore meeting.

Take care all.

-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr < langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi Siva what goes into being an ALS application form for ICANN is decided by ALAC and approved / negotiated with ICANN (usually Legal advise the Board on this) and ALAC go through considerable work with ICANN Legal on ramifications, purpose and effect of any such changes to ALS application forms and the processes associated with them...

FYI the last major overhaul of this system and forms started in 2007 at the LA Meeting and was completed in 2008... and was in part responding to a matter of complaint (against ALAC) that had been dealt with by the then ICANN Ombudsman... and it is from his recommendations that we also strive so carefully to review ALS applications in such a timely manner and have in the public record the status and progression of received applications.

So if a Region (such as APRALO) believe changes to or additional information is desirable to assist in the role that the RALO Officers have in conducting their part in the Regional Advice on an ALS applicant (which is done after the Due Diligence phase), then the way to get this to happen is to request the RALO to have these suggestions and the rational etc., for them brought forward to the ALAC and to request a process of ALS application form (and possible processing standards etc.,) set for a formal review...

Do let me know if I can assist APRALO with doing any of that...

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)

On 6 April 2011 03:07, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hello

Could there be a section in the ALS application form the applicant to furnish a list of members, each listed with some basic particulars as their profession, the name of the organization they belong to, their position and contact information? That would give us an idea about the diversity of the member base of the proposed ALS.

Thank you.

Sivasubramanian M

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Marilyn,

Thank you for the update on the application submission by Net Mission. We look forward to the due diligence completion and are positive about Net Mission Hong Kong's possible participation in APRALO.

Best

Fouad

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:09 AM, Marilyn Vernon <staff@atlarge.icann.org> wrote: > Dear all, > > This is to inform you that we received an ALS application from > Netmission.ASIA. It is based in Tsim Sha Tsui, Hong Kong and would > be a > member of APRALO if accepted. > > Please find the application form attached. The regional liaison for Asia > Pacific has been informed and will provide us with due diligence > for this > application in due course. > > -- > Regards, > > Heidi Ullrich, Gisella Gruber-White, Seth Greene, Marilyn Vernon > ICANN At-Large Staff

_______________________________________________

Hi Charles, Its an interesting discussion indeed but it has its ramifications are unforeseen. The discussion would also step up to question the existing membership efforts of any RALO. It also steps into an invasion of privacy unless it is explicitly mentioned that are all the members of the group willing to undergo a due-diligence and that the types and procedures will have to be publicly shared. I have a feeling of where Siva is coming for but this discussion is a major concern for me because of my interest in Outreach and In-reach activities. Where we are unable to achieve considerable participation by ALSs' across the board, we will create another process of intimidation. On diversity, there is a certain element of decision at the ALS level that interplays before it actually applies for membership of ALAC and any RALO. I don't think the Internet or World Wide Web or the services that run on the network at any point asked its users what were their qualifications before they were accessed by users. Yes, age may be a concern. The decision to select an ALS is an ALAC process and I am sure that since this message is being circulated on ALAC internal list, everyone is reading it. I still feel it will add process overhead, privacy concerns, only serve a certain limited purpose, intimidate membership prospects and decrease interest. -- Fouad On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Charles Mok <mok@hknet.com> wrote:

Siva has brought up good points and certainly he is not asking for a check on all membership.  But diversity, past track record and the purpose of formation of a prospective ALS should be part of the information for considering if they are qualified, or if they are 'made up'.  This is the reasonable level of disclosure to ask for. Thanks Siva Charles

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 1:55 PM, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Cheryl, Fouad,

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:13 AM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Cheryl,

Indeed, your detailed explanation of the question in argument gives me complete guidance and I had also stepped towards referring to these guidelines laying out the minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure.

Surely and firmly, I wouldn't want ALAC to go that way at all especially because of APRALO.

There are more pressing issues at hand in APRALO to work with and I would definitely not be looking towards triggering any such arguments within ALAC.

Once again I thank you for sharing your experienced guidance with me and others on the list and I hope this issue now stands resolved as to a good topic for discussion but not necessary to take forward unless it comes up in the APRALO meeting and should it be discussed and find the need for further exploration, which personally I believe should not be the case.

As a concluding remark, I believe Siva being a colleague fellow of the Net Mission Ambassadors and actually also introducing some of them to APRALO in the SF APRALO meeting shows that he very well had the knowledge of Net Mission members and participants. Secondly, if we all follow the Asia Pacific IGF, the secondary application in the application Elaine Cheng was one of the organizers of the AP-IGF: http://rigf.asia/sponsors-and-supporters/ during which some of our ALAC and APRALO members were also present.

I am not opposing the Netmission application here. What I observed is that this application and most ALS applications are short of a list of members and some basic details. My observation is not to be interpreted as a suggestion to do a due diligence on each and every member, which is what appears to be Fouad's interpretation

 "if the process got involved in checking with each individual their

...

background, that would be first an invasion on one's privacy and secondly it would become a hassle for such a process to fulfill what it is objectively designed and structured to do "

That is not what I have implied.

Let's think of an imaginary situation. If I were to put up an ALS application, with my company employees as members, how would APRALO / ALAC understand the absence of diversity?  If the member list is furnished in the format Name + Company + City + contact information + any other organizational affiliation + some information about the member / officer's interest in ICANN AT-Large, it would become easier to look at the list and at a quick glance assess if there is a balance.

This would not be an extraordinarily difficult change for the RALO and ALAC to adopt and call for.

Thank you Sivasubramanian M

...

I would consider this argument concluded and apologize for the attention it drew from everyone's time.

-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:08 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Fouad  you outline many of the concerns  ALAC  would be discussing and debating if such a proposal for change was ever to get that far  and of course we would also no doubt need to audit  changes and claims made in application of existing ALSes  (just to be fair)   Happy Google searching on all the Members we could list for ISOC-AU and indeed the Membership pf the Organisational Members we list   I think you see the tone of my personal view on this... BUT  should APRALO desire a change to these ALS application forms  you now know  how that would need to be approached if it were to have any chance of it happening... Also note please the Criteria  for becoming an ALS does not discuss the need for "members"  per se at all... see http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm but rather the criteria is that the minimum standards ARE :

Minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure:

Commit to supporting individual Internet users' informed participation in ICANN by distributing to individual constituents/members information on relevant ICANN activities and issues, offering Internet-based mechanisms that enable discussions of one or more of these activities and issues among individual constituents/members, and involving individual constituents/members in relevant ICANN policy development, discussions and decisions. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region. Be self-supporting (not rely on ICANN for funding). Post on the Internet (on the ALAC's website or elsewhere) publicly-accessible, current information about the ALS's goals, structure, description of constituent group(s)/membership, working mechanisms, leadership, and contact(s). Assist the RALO in performing its function  FROM http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm

As well as  "Guidelines for Evaluating an ALS" document where the matters of 'Membership'  etc.,  (amongst other matters) is outlined in full,   EN  version  is found at

https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/2263023/ALAC-2007-SD-2-Rev7...

...

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)

On 6 April 2011 10:22, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Cheryl and all,

Thank you for sharing this in much detail as it adds to my knowledge as well about how the due diligence works. I believe it is crucial to note here that if the process got involved in checking with each individual their background, that would be first an invasion on one's privacy and secondly it would become a hassle for such a process to fulfill what it is objectively designed and structured to do.

I want to take a brief moment here to explain how I look at applications for joining ALAC through APRALO:

As far as Net Mission application is concerned I believe that since Siva was part of the ICANN fellowship program and there were "adopted fellows" this time from Net Mission in the San Francisco meeting, and I was able to attend most of those fellowship meetings as well as Olivier, the two participants from Net Mission did share quite some information during my interactions. I got to meet the group during the IGF in Lithuania as well. Its important to note that these young participants have found their path in ICANN through ALAC and APRALO.

Another thing to note is that Net Mission Ambassadors are very vocal, transparent and public. Two members participated in the APRALO meeting and I believe Siva took the kind liberty of introducing them in the meeting. One of the ambassador, Michelle Qin has also blogged about her experience at

http://join.ust.hk/blog/michelle-qin/40th-icann-conference-san-francisco.

...

...

Interesting when we do a search with the names provided in the application such as Richard Cheng the following information pops up http://icannwiki.com/index.php/Richard_Cheng.

Each member listed in the application displays significant participation within ICANN or IGF processes such as Bianca Ho was participating in the IGF and this the workshop officially approved and delivered:

http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/component/chronocontact/?chronoformname=WSPro...

...

...

If any of our members would like more proof, Net Mission's annual report is a very good evidence of what all these members do:

http://www.ycig.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/NM-annual-report-2009-10-eng-... .

...

...

In fact each member in that list has details on the web and if I wander to Yvonne Lee, search returns http://sites.google.com/site/yvonneseportfoliobackup/page. These members appear in very good standing, active and I would like to hear their young point of views on Internet user related issues.

Personally speaking, checking on every member of a given ALS application would cause a breach of privacy and on an my own personal individual basis I would not support such a practice neither encourage it within APRALO though consensus is a separate subject.

Maybe such would be otherwise if we initiated the inclusion of individual membership in the future because then an individual would have to go through due diligence. I still have to seek guidance from Cheryl and Olivier in this matter on how to structure such an option in my proposal to APRALO in the near future.

I look forward to Net Mission's application receiving due diligence and it would indeed be a pleasure to meet up with these young leaders again in our interactions during the Singapore meeting.

Take care all.

-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr < langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi Siva  what goes into being an ALS application form for ICANN is  decided by ALAC and approved / negotiated with ICANN (usually Legal advise the Board on this)  and ALAC go through considerable work with ICANN Legal  on ramifications, purpose and effect of any such changes to ALS application forms and the processes associated with them...

FYI  the last major overhaul of this system and forms  started in 2007 at the LA Meeting  and was completed in 2008... and was in part responding to a matter of complaint (against ALAC) that had been dealt with by the then ICANN Ombudsman... and it is from his recommendations  that we also strive so carefully to review ALS applications in such a timely manner and have in the public record the status and progression of received applications.

So if a Region (such as APRALO)  believe  changes  to or additional information is desirable to assist in the role that the RALO Officers have in conducting their part in the Regional Advice on an ALS applicant  (which is done after the Due Diligence phase), then the way to get this to happen is to request the RALO  to have these suggestions and the rational etc.,  for them  brought  forward  to the ALAC and to request a process of ALS application form (and possible processing standards etc.,)  set for a formal review...

Do let me know if I can assist APRALO with doing any of that...

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)

On 6 April 2011 03:07, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello > > Could there be a section in the ALS application form the applicant > to > furnish a list of members, each listed with some basic particulars > as > their > profession, the name of the organization they belong to, their position > and > contact information? That would give us an idea about the > diversity of > the > member base of the proposed ALS. > > Thank you. > > > Sivasubramanian M > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > Dear Marilyn, > > > > Thank you for the update on the application submission by Net > > Mission. > > We look forward to the due diligence completion and are positive > > about > > Net Mission Hong Kong's possible participation in APRALO. > > > > Best > > > > Fouad > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:09 AM, Marilyn Vernon > > <staff@atlarge.icann.org> > > wrote: > > > Dear all, > > > > > > This is to inform you that we received an ALS application from > > > Netmission.ASIA. It is based in Tsim Sha Tsui, Hong Kong and would > > > be a > > > member of APRALO if accepted. > > > > > > Please find the application form attached. The regional > > > liaison for > Asia > > > Pacific has been informed and will provide us with due > > > diligence > > > for > this > > > application in due course. > > > > > > -- > > > Regards, > > > > > > Heidi Ullrich, Gisella Gruber-White, Seth Greene, Marilyn > > > Vernon > > > ICANN At-Large Staff > > > > _______________________________________________

_______________________________________________ APAC-Discuss mailing list APAC-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/apac-discuss

Homepage for the region: http://www.apralo.org

Hi Siva, There are two things here that count in my personal opinion that who first introduced the group to APRALO and invited them to submit their application, maybe this would be a good addition as then there would be a voice pre due diligence that could introduce the group or organization to the RALO. As far as the issue about one's association with a corporate entity is concerned, that is a personal issue because most of the people even involved within civil society are engaged in some form of a business or commercial activity to run their kitchens. If we study the various ISOC Chapters across the board, alot of people are engaged in commercial consulting, commercial activity, corporates etc but on an individual basis comprise the membership of those organizations. AS for the example part, how do we know whether all of us are not commercial affiliates with a social or civil society faces? We will never be able to determine that unless you carry a track record of activism that would get you into trouble as it has gotten me on various occasions and is found over the Internet ;o) Privacy is an important issue and it may be objectionable to disclose so much detail when such an issue might go up to the level of other RALO's and then to their ALSs. I have seen capture oriented approaches in groups that are not diligent towards the kind of people applying for membership. AS far as I know, people appear within the RALOs through possible invitations or introductions. My perception about Net Mission as you raise comes because of the stage at which you introduced the argument which is exactly at which Net Mission application has been received. Maybe you could have possibly created a separate thread and raised the issue for future discussion. I also did a basic due diligence activity on Net Mission as an example using the Internet/Web as it itself can be used for transparency and accountability. It showed us all the members of Net Mission and it also displayed what they did with both documentary evidence. I guess we can have an add-on on request basis only by a RALO leadership to the due-diligence process that once an applications dg has been completed, and should a RALO leadership request, more information may be inquired from a prospective applicant but that is totally an ALAC level intervention. Maybe a reference request clause can be added asking questions like, who introduced you to ALAC or the RALO etc and that person can be inquired as well but again, too much. Best -- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Cheryl, Fouad,

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:13 AM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Cheryl,

Indeed, your detailed explanation of the question in argument gives me complete guidance and I had also stepped towards referring to these guidelines laying out the minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure.

Surely and firmly, I wouldn't want ALAC to go that way at all especially because of APRALO.

There are more pressing issues at hand in APRALO to work with and I would definitely not be looking towards triggering any such arguments within ALAC.

Once again I thank you for sharing your experienced guidance with me and others on the list and I hope this issue now stands resolved as to a good topic for discussion but not necessary to take forward unless it comes up in the APRALO meeting and should it be discussed and find the need for further exploration, which personally I believe should not be the case.

As a concluding remark, I believe Siva being a colleague fellow of the Net Mission Ambassadors and actually also introducing some of them to APRALO in the SF APRALO meeting shows that he very well had the knowledge of Net Mission members and participants. Secondly, if we all follow the Asia Pacific IGF, the secondary application in the application Elaine Cheng was one of the organizers of the AP-IGF: http://rigf.asia/sponsors-and-supporters/ during which some of our ALAC and APRALO members were also present.

I am not opposing the Netmission application here. What I observed is that this application and most ALS applications are short of a list of members and some basic details. My observation is not to be interpreted as a suggestion to do a due diligence on each and every member, which is what appears to be Fouad's interpretation

...

 "if the process got involved in checking with each individual their background, that would be first an invasion on one's privacy and secondly it would become a hassle for such a process to fulfill what it is objectively designed and structured to do "

That is not what I have implied. Let's think of an imaginary situation. If I were to put up an ALS application, with my company employees as members, how would APRALO / ALAC understand the absence of diversity?  If the member list is furnished in the format Name + Company + City + contact information + any other organizational affiliation + some information about the member / officer's interest in ICANN AT-Large, it would become easier to look at the list and at a quick glance assess if there is a balance. This would not be an extraordinarily difficult change for the RALO and ALAC to adopt and call for. Thank you Sivasubramanian M

...

I would consider this argument concluded and apologize for the attention it drew from everyone's time.

-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:08 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Fouad  you outline many of the concerns  ALAC  would be discussing and debating if such a proposal for change was ever to get that far  and of course we would also no doubt need to audit  changes and claims made in application of existing ALSes  (just to be fair)   Happy Google searching on all the Members we could list for ISOC-AU and indeed the Membership pf the Organisational Members we list   I think you see the tone of my personal view on this... BUT  should APRALO desire a change to these ALS application forms  you now know  how that would need to be approached if it were to have any chance of it happening... Also note please the Criteria  for becoming an ALS does not discuss the need for "members"  per se at all... see http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm   but rather the criteria is that the minimum standards ARE :

Minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure:

Commit to supporting individual Internet users' informed participation in ICANN by distributing to individual constituents/members information on relevant ICANN activities and issues, offering Internet-based mechanisms that enable discussions of one or more of these activities and issues among individual constituents/members, and involving individual constituents/members in relevant ICANN policy development, discussions and decisions. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region. Be self-supporting (not rely on ICANN for funding). Post on the Internet (on the ALAC's website or elsewhere) publicly-accessible, current information about the ALS's goals, structure, description of constituent group(s)/membership, working mechanisms, leadership, and contact(s). Assist the RALO in performing its function  FROM http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm

As well as  "Guidelines for Evaluating an ALS" document where the matters of 'Membership'  etc.,  (amongst other matters) is outlined in full,   EN  version  is found

at https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/2263023/ALAC-2007-SD-2-Rev7...

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)

On 6 April 2011 10:22, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Cheryl and all,

Thank you for sharing this in much detail as it adds to my knowledge as well about how the due diligence works. I believe it is crucial to note here that if the process got involved in checking with each individual their background, that would be first an invasion on one's privacy and secondly it would become a hassle for such a process to fulfill what it is objectively designed and structured to do.

I want to take a brief moment here to explain how I look at applications for joining ALAC through APRALO:

As far as Net Mission application is concerned I believe that since Siva was part of the ICANN fellowship program and there were "adopted fellows" this time from Net Mission in the San Francisco meeting, and I was able to attend most of those fellowship meetings as well as Olivier, the two participants from Net Mission did share quite some information during my interactions. I got to meet the group during the IGF in Lithuania as well. Its important to note that these young participants have found their path in ICANN through ALAC and APRALO.

Another thing to note is that Net Mission Ambassadors are very vocal, transparent and public. Two members participated in the APRALO meeting and I believe Siva took the kind liberty of introducing them in the meeting. One of the ambassador, Michelle Qin has also blogged about her experience at

http://join.ust.hk/blog/michelle-qin/40th-icann-conference-san-francisco. Interesting when we do a search with the names provided in the application such as Richard Cheng the following information pops up http://icannwiki.com/index.php/Richard_Cheng.

Each member listed in the application displays significant participation within ICANN or IGF processes such as Bianca Ho was participating in the IGF and this the workshop officially approved and delivered:

http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/component/chronocontact/?chronoformname=WSPro... If any of our members would like more proof, Net Mission's annual report is a very good evidence of what all these members do:

http://www.ycig.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/NM-annual-report-2009-10-eng-.... In fact each member in that list has details on the web and if I wander to Yvonne Lee, search returns http://sites.google.com/site/yvonneseportfoliobackup/page. These members appear in very good standing, active and I would like to hear their young point of views on Internet user related issues.

Personally speaking, checking on every member of a given ALS application would cause a breach of privacy and on an my own personal individual basis I would not support such a practice neither encourage it within APRALO though consensus is a separate subject.

Maybe such would be otherwise if we initiated the inclusion of individual membership in the future because then an individual would have to go through due diligence. I still have to seek guidance from Cheryl and Olivier in this matter on how to structure such an option in my proposal to APRALO in the near future.

I look forward to Net Mission's application receiving due diligence and it would indeed be a pleasure to meet up with these young leaders again in our interactions during the Singapore meeting.

Take care all.

-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi Siva  what goes into being an ALS application form for ICANN is  decided by ALAC and approved / negotiated with ICANN (usually Legal advise the Board on this)  and ALAC go through considerable work with ICANN Legal  on ramifications, purpose and effect of any such changes to ALS application forms and the processes associated with them...

FYI  the last major overhaul of this system and forms  started in 2007 at the LA Meeting  and was completed in 2008... and was in part responding to a matter of complaint (against ALAC) that had been dealt with by the then ICANN Ombudsman... and it is from his recommendations  that we also strive so carefully to review ALS applications in such a timely manner and have in the public record the status and progression of received applications.

So if a Region (such as APRALO)  believe  changes  to or additional information is desirable to assist in the role that the RALO Officers have in conducting their part in the Regional Advice on an ALS applicant  (which is done after the Due Diligence phase), then the way to get this to happen is to request the RALO  to have these suggestions and the rational etc.,  for them  brought  forward  to the ALAC and to request a process of ALS application form (and possible processing standards etc.,)  set for a formal review...

Do let me know if I can assist APRALO with doing any of that...

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)

On 6 April 2011 03:07, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hello

Could there be a section in the ALS application form the applicant to furnish a list of members, each listed with some basic particulars as their profession, the name of the organization they belong to, their position and contact information? That would give us an idea about the diversity of the member base of the proposed ALS.

Thank you.

Sivasubramanian M

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Marilyn, > > Thank you for the update on the application submission by Net > Mission. > We look forward to the due diligence completion and are positive > about > Net Mission Hong Kong's possible participation in APRALO. > > Best > > Fouad > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:09 AM, Marilyn Vernon > <staff@atlarge.icann.org> > wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > This is to inform you that we received an ALS application from > > Netmission.ASIA. It is based in Tsim Sha Tsui, Hong Kong and > > would > > be a > > member of APRALO if accepted. > > > > Please find the application form attached. The regional liaison > > for Asia > > Pacific has been informed and will provide us with due diligence > > for this > > application in due course. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Heidi Ullrich, Gisella Gruber-White, Seth Greene, Marilyn Vernon > > ICANN At-Large Staff > > _______________________________________________

Hi Siva, Kindly feel free to develop a proposal for presentation in the upcoming APRALO meeting and we can put it up for voting or comments and should it receive consensus we will forward it to ALAC and should ALAC find it useful can call a comment or vote from all RALOs and after which we can wait and see if this works :o) -- Take care Fouad On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Fouad,

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 2:15 PM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi Siva,

There are two things here that count in my personal opinion that who first introduced the group to APRALO and invited them to submit their application, maybe this would be a good addition as then there would be a voice pre due diligence that could introduce the group or organization to the RALO.

This can be easily be implemented by introducing a column such as "How do you know about At-Large?" or by introducing a more specific column where the applicant indicates the name of the person/persons who invited the founding members to form an ALS. The person(s) who encouraged the formation of the ALS definitely knows more about the initial members than others, so this would be a good idea.

...

As far as the issue about one's association with a corporate entity is concerned, that is a personal issue because most of the people even involved within civil society are engaged in some form of a business or commercial activity to run their kitchens. If we study the various ISOC Chapters across the board, alot of people are engaged in commercial consulting, commercial activity, corporates etc but on an individual basis comprise the membership of those organizations.

But would ISOC approve an ISOC Microsoft Chapter or an ISOC Google Chapter? Would be approve of a GoDaddy At Large Structure? ( said here as imaginative examples )

...

AS for the example part, how do we know whether all of us are not commercial affiliates with a social or civil society faces? We will never be able to determine that unless you carry a track record of activism that would get you into trouble as it has gotten me on various occasions and is found over the Internet ;o)

Though this is off track, good work some times attracts a bit of trouble, but the trouble does not last forever.

...

Privacy is an important issue and it may be objectionable to disclose so much detail when such an issue might go up to the level of other RALO's and then to their ALSs.

I have seen capture oriented approaches in groups that are not diligent towards the kind of people applying for membership. AS far as I know, people appear within the RALOs through possible invitations or introductions.

My perception about Net Mission as you raise comes because of the stage at which you introduced the argument which is exactly at which Net Mission application has been received. Maybe you could have possibly created a separate thread and raised the issue for future discussion.

Yes, I could have. ( And I did not know that it was you who encouraged the formation of this ALS, so this comment is not to be construed as one that is intended to go against your initiatives.)

...

I also did a basic due diligence activity on Net Mission as an example using the Internet/Web as it itself can be used for transparency and accountability. It showed us all the members of Net Mission and it also displayed what they did with both documentary evidence.

I guess we can have an add-on on request basis only by a RALO leadership to the due-diligence process that once an applications dg has been completed, and should a RALO leadership request, more information may be inquired from a prospective applicant but that is totally an ALAC level intervention. Maybe a reference request clause can be added asking questions like, who introduced you to ALAC or the RALO etc and that person can be inquired as well but again, too much.

As stated earlier, it is a good idea to include a column in the application form.

...

Best

-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 10:55 AM, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Cheryl, Fouad,

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 7:13 AM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Cheryl,

Indeed, your detailed explanation of the question in argument gives me complete guidance and I had also stepped towards referring to these guidelines laying out the minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure.

Surely and firmly, I wouldn't want ALAC to go that way at all especially because of APRALO.

There are more pressing issues at hand in APRALO to work with and I would definitely not be looking towards triggering any such arguments within ALAC.

Once again I thank you for sharing your experienced guidance with me and others on the list and I hope this issue now stands resolved as to a good topic for discussion but not necessary to take forward unless it comes up in the APRALO meeting and should it be discussed and find the need for further exploration, which personally I believe should not be the case.

As a concluding remark, I believe Siva being a colleague fellow of the Net Mission Ambassadors and actually also introducing some of them to APRALO in the SF APRALO meeting shows that he very well had the knowledge of Net Mission members and participants. Secondly, if we all follow the Asia Pacific IGF, the secondary application in the application Elaine Cheng was one of the organizers of the AP-IGF: http://rigf.asia/sponsors-and-supporters/ during which some of our ALAC and APRALO members were also present.

I am not opposing the Netmission application here. What I observed is that this application and most ALS applications are short of a list of members and some basic details. My observation is not to be interpreted as a suggestion to do a due diligence on each and every member, which is what appears to be Fouad's interpretation

...

 "if the process got involved in checking with each individual their background, that would be first an invasion on one's privacy and secondly it would become a hassle for such a process to fulfill what it is objectively designed and structured to do "

That is not what I have implied. Let's think of an imaginary situation. If I were to put up an ALS application, with my company employees as members, how would APRALO / ALAC understand the absence of diversity?  If the member list is furnished in the format Name + Company + City + contact information + any other organizational affiliation + some information about the member / officer's interest in ICANN AT-Large, it would become easier to look at the list and at a quick glance assess if there is a balance. This would not be an extraordinarily difficult change for the RALO and ALAC to adopt and call for. Thank you Sivasubramanian M

...

I would consider this argument concluded and apologize for the attention it drew from everyone's time.

-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 6:08 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Fouad  you outline many of the concerns  ALAC  would be discussing and debating if such a proposal for change was ever to get that far  and of course we would also no doubt need to audit  changes and claims made in application of existing ALSes  (just to be fair)   Happy Google searching on all the Members we could list for ISOC-AU and indeed the Membership pf the Organisational Members we list   I think you see the tone of my personal view on this... BUT  should APRALO desire a change to these ALS application forms  you now know  how that would need to be approached if it were to have any chance of it happening... Also note please the Criteria  for becoming an ALS does not discuss the need for "members"  per se at all... see http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm but rather the criteria is that the minimum standards ARE :

Minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure:

Commit to supporting individual Internet users' informed participation in ICANN by distributing to individual constituents/members information on relevant ICANN activities and issues, offering Internet-based mechanisms that enable discussions of one or more of these activities and issues among individual constituents/members, and involving individual constituents/members in relevant ICANN policy development, discussions and decisions. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region. Be self-supporting (not rely on ICANN for funding). Post on the Internet (on the ALAC's website or elsewhere) publicly-accessible, current information about the ALS's goals, structure, description of constituent group(s)/membership, working mechanisms, leadership, and contact(s). Assist the RALO in performing its function  FROM http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm

As well as  "Guidelines for Evaluating an ALS" document where the matters of 'Membership'  etc.,  (amongst other matters) is outlined in full, EN  version  is found

at https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/2263023/ALAC-2007-SD-2-Rev7...

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)

On 6 April 2011 10:22, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Cheryl and all,

Thank you for sharing this in much detail as it adds to my knowledge as well about how the due diligence works. I believe it is crucial to note here that if the process got involved in checking with each individual their background, that would be first an invasion on one's privacy and secondly it would become a hassle for such a process to fulfill what it is objectively designed and structured to do.

I want to take a brief moment here to explain how I look at applications for joining ALAC through APRALO:

As far as Net Mission application is concerned I believe that since Siva was part of the ICANN fellowship program and there were "adopted fellows" this time from Net Mission in the San Francisco meeting, and I was able to attend most of those fellowship meetings as well as Olivier, the two participants from Net Mission did share quite some information during my interactions. I got to meet the group during the IGF in Lithuania as well. Its important to note that these young participants have found their path in ICANN through ALAC and APRALO.

Another thing to note is that Net Mission Ambassadors are very vocal, transparent and public. Two members participated in the APRALO meeting and I believe Siva took the kind liberty of introducing them in the meeting. One of the ambassador, Michelle Qin has also blogged about her experience at

http://join.ust.hk/blog/michelle-qin/40th-icann-conference-san-francisco. Interesting when we do a search with the names provided in the application such as Richard Cheng the following information pops up http://icannwiki.com/index.php/Richard_Cheng.

Each member listed in the application displays significant participation within ICANN or IGF processes such as Bianca Ho was participating in the IGF and this the workshop officially approved and delivered:

http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/component/chronocontact/?chronoformname=WSPro... If any of our members would like more proof, Net Mission's annual report is a very good evidence of what all these members do:

http://www.ycig.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/NM-annual-report-2009-10-eng-.... In fact each member in that list has details on the web and if I wander to Yvonne Lee, search returns http://sites.google.com/site/yvonneseportfoliobackup/page. These members appear in very good standing, active and I would like to hear their young point of views on Internet user related issues.

Personally speaking, checking on every member of a given ALS application would cause a breach of privacy and on an my own personal individual basis I would not support such a practice neither encourage it within APRALO though consensus is a separate subject.

Maybe such would be otherwise if we initiated the inclusion of individual membership in the future because then an individual would have to go through due diligence. I still have to seek guidance from Cheryl and Olivier in this matter on how to structure such an option in my proposal to APRALO in the near future.

I look forward to Net Mission's application receiving due diligence and it would indeed be a pleasure to meet up with these young leaders again in our interactions during the Singapore meeting.

Take care all.

-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi Siva  what goes into being an ALS application form for ICANN is >  decided > by ALAC and approved / negotiated with ICANN (usually Legal advise > the > Board > on this)  and ALAC go through considerable work with ICANN Legal >  on > ramifications, purpose and effect of any such changes to ALS > application > forms and the processes associated with them... > > FYI  the last major overhaul of this system and forms  started in > 2007 > at > the LA Meeting  and was completed in 2008... and was in part > responding > to a > matter of complaint (against ALAC) that had been dealt with by the > then > ICANN Ombudsman... and it is from his recommendations  that we > also > strive > so carefully to review ALS applications in such a timely manner > and > have > in > the public record the status and progression of received > applications. > > So if a Region (such as APRALO)  believe  changes  to or > additional > information is desirable to assist in the role that the RALO > Officers > have > in conducting their part in the Regional Advice on an ALS > applicant >  (which is done after the Due Diligence phase), then the way to > get > this > to > happen is to request the RALO  to have these suggestions and > the rational etc.,  for them  brought  forward  to the ALAC and to > request a > process of ALS application form (and possible processing standards > etc.,) >  set for a formal review... > > Do let me know if I can assist APRALO with doing any of that... > > Cheryl Langdon-Orr > (CLO) > > > > On 6 April 2011 03:07, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Hello >> >> Could there be a section in the ALS application form the >> applicant >> to >> furnish a list of members, each listed with some basic >> particulars >> as >> their >> profession, the name of the organization they belong to, their >> position >> and >> contact information? That would give us an idea about the >> diversity >> of >> the >> member base of the proposed ALS. >> >> Thank you. >> >> >> Sivasubramanian M >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Fouad Bajwa >> <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >> > Dear Marilyn, >> > >> > Thank you for the update on the application submission by Net >> > Mission. >> > We look forward to the due diligence completion and are >> > positive >> > about >> > Net Mission Hong Kong's possible participation in APRALO. >> > >> > Best >> > >> > Fouad >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:09 AM, Marilyn Vernon >> > <staff@atlarge.icann.org> >> > wrote: >> > > Dear all, >> > > >> > > This is to inform you that we received an ALS application >> > > from >> > > Netmission.ASIA. It is based in Tsim Sha Tsui, Hong Kong and >> > > would >> > > be a >> > > member of APRALO if accepted. >> > > >> > > Please find the application form attached. The regional >> > > liaison >> > > for >> Asia >> > > Pacific has been informed and will provide us with due >> > > diligence >> > > for >> this >> > > application in due course. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > Regards, >> > > >> > > Heidi Ullrich, Gisella Gruber-White, Seth Greene, Marilyn >> > > Vernon >> > > ICANN At-Large Staff >> > >> > _______________________________________________

I just want to state that I. as an individual and speaking for no-one else, agree 100% with Fouad. As I expressed in SanFrancisco, I also disagree with Sivas's idea of having ALS's Balance Sheets and/or Income Statements on public lists. D Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: alac-internal-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [alac-internal-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] on behalf of Cheryl Langdon-Orr [langdonorr@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 9:08 PM To: Fouad Bajwa Cc: ALAC Internal List; ICANN AtLarge Staff; apac-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org; Sivasubramanian M Subject: Re: [ALAC-Internal] [APAC-Discuss] ALS Application: Netmission.ASIA Fouad you outline many of the concerns ALAC would be discussing and debating if such a proposal for change was ever to get that far and of course we would also no doubt need to audit changes and claims made in application of existing ALSes (just to be fair) Happy Google searching on all the Members we could list for ISOC-AU and indeed the Membership pf the Organisational Members we list I think you see the tone of my personal view on this... BUT should APRALO desire a change to these ALS application forms you now know how that would need to be approached if it were to have any chance of it happening... Also note please the Criteria for becoming an ALS does not discuss the need for "members" per se at all... see http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm but rather the criteria is that the minimum standards ARE : *Minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure:* 1. Commit to supporting individual Internet users' informed participation in ICANN by distributing to individual constituents/members information on relevant ICANN activities and issues, offering Internet-based mechanisms that enable discussions of one or more of these activities and issues among individual constituents/members, and involving individual constituents/members in relevant ICANN policy development, discussions and decisions. 2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region. 3. Be self-supporting (not rely on ICANN for funding). 4. Post on the Internet (on the ALAC's website or elsewhere) publicly-accessible, current information about the ALS's goals, structure, description of constituent group(s)/membership, working mechanisms, leadership, and contact(s). 5. Assist the RALO in performing its function FROM http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm As well as "Guidelines for Evaluating an ALS" document where the matters of 'Membership' etc., (amongst other matters) is outlined in full, EN version is found at https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/2263023/ALAC-2007-SD-2-Rev7... Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO) On 6 April 2011 10:22, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Cheryl and all,

Thank you for sharing this in much detail as it adds to my knowledge as well about how the due diligence works. I believe it is crucial to note here that if the process got involved in checking with each individual their background, that would be first an invasion on one's privacy and secondly it would become a hassle for such a process to fulfill what it is objectively designed and structured to do.

I want to take a brief moment here to explain how I look at applications for joining ALAC through APRALO:

As far as Net Mission application is concerned I believe that since Siva was part of the ICANN fellowship program and there were "adopted fellows" this time from Net Mission in the San Francisco meeting, and I was able to attend most of those fellowship meetings as well as Olivier, the two participants from Net Mission did share quite some information during my interactions. I got to meet the group during the IGF in Lithuania as well. Its important to note that these young participants have found their path in ICANN through ALAC and APRALO.

Another thing to note is that Net Mission Ambassadors are very vocal, transparent and public. Two members participated in the APRALO meeting and I believe Siva took the kind liberty of introducing them in the meeting. One of the ambassador, Michelle Qin has also blogged about her experience at http://join.ust.hk/blog/michelle-qin/40th-icann-conference-san-francisco. Interesting when we do a search with the names provided in the application such as Richard Cheng the following information pops up http://icannwiki.com/index.php/Richard_Cheng.

Each member listed in the application displays significant participation within ICANN or IGF processes such as Bianca Ho was participating in the IGF and this the workshop officially approved and delivered: http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/component/chronocontact/?chronoformname=WSPro... If any of our members would like more proof, Net Mission's annual report is a very good evidence of what all these members do:

http://www.ycig.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/NM-annual-report-2009-10-eng-... . In fact each member in that list has details on the web and if I wander to Yvonne Lee, search returns http://sites.google.com/site/yvonneseportfoliobackup/page. These members appear in very good standing, active and I would like to hear their young point of views on Internet user related issues.

Personally speaking, checking on every member of a given ALS application would cause a breach of privacy and on an my own personal individual basis I would not support such a practice neither encourage it within APRALO though consensus is a separate subject.

Maybe such would be otherwise if we initiated the inclusion of individual membership in the future because then an individual would have to go through due diligence. I still have to seek guidance from Cheryl and Olivier in this matter on how to structure such an option in my proposal to APRALO in the near future.

I look forward to Net Mission's application receiving due diligence and it would indeed be a pleasure to meet up with these young leaders again in our interactions during the Singapore meeting.

Take care all.

-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr <langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi Siva what goes into being an ALS application form for ICANN is decided by ALAC and approved / negotiated with ICANN (usually Legal advise the Board on this) and ALAC go through considerable work with ICANN Legal on ramifications, purpose and effect of any such changes to ALS application forms and the processes associated with them...

FYI the last major overhaul of this system and forms started in 2007 at the LA Meeting and was completed in 2008... and was in part responding to a matter of complaint (against ALAC) that had been dealt with by the then ICANN Ombudsman... and it is from his recommendations that we also strive so carefully to review ALS applications in such a timely manner and have in the public record the status and progression of received applications.

So if a Region (such as APRALO) believe changes to or additional information is desirable to assist in the role that the RALO Officers have in conducting their part in the Regional Advice on an ALS applicant (which is done after the Due Diligence phase), then the way to get this to happen is to request the RALO to have these suggestions and the rational etc., for them brought forward to the ALAC and to request a process of ALS application form (and possible processing standards etc.,) set for a formal review...

Do let me know if I can assist APRALO with doing any of that...

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)

On 6 April 2011 03:07, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hello

Could there be a section in the ALS application form the applicant to furnish a list of members, each listed with some basic particulars as their profession, the name of the organization they belong to, their position and contact information? That would give us an idea about the diversity of the member base of the proposed ALS.

Thank you.

Sivasubramanian M

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Marilyn,

Thank you for the update on the application submission by Net Mission. We look forward to the due diligence completion and are positive about Net Mission Hong Kong's possible participation in APRALO.

Best

Fouad

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:09 AM, Marilyn Vernon < staff@atlarge.icann.org> wrote:

...

Dear all,

This is to inform you that we received an ALS application from Netmission.ASIA. It is based in Tsim Sha Tsui, Hong Kong and would be a member of APRALO if accepted.

Please find the application form attached. The regional liaison for Asia Pacific has been informed and will provide us with due diligence for this application in due course.

-- Regards,

Heidi Ullrich, Gisella Gruber-White, Seth Greene, Marilyn Vernon ICANN At-Large Staff

_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________ ALAC-Internal mailing list ALAC-Internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-internal ALAC Wiki: http://st.icann.org/alac At-Large Website: http://atlarge.icann.org

Dear Darlene, On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com>wrote:

Darlene,

On Mon, Apr 11, 2011 at 1:57 AM, Thompson, Darlene <DThompson1@gov.nu.ca>wrote:

...

I just want to state that I. as an individual and speaking for no-one else, agree 100% with Fouad. As I expressed in SanFrancisco, I also disagree with Sivas's idea of having ALS's Balance Sheets and/or Income Statements on public lists.

Where and when did I tell you anything about the Balance Sheet or Income Statement of an ALS?

And by the way, it is a very good through, so I will say it now, though not in the exact same words. There must be some transparency about how an ALS is funded. Sivasubramanian M

...

D

Darlene A. Thompson CAP Administrator N-CAP/Department of Education P.O. Box 1000, Station 910 Iqaluit, NU X0A 0H0 Phone: (867) 975-5631 Fax: (867) 975-5610 dthompson@gov.nu.ca ________________________________________ From: alac-internal-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [ alac-internal-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] on behalf of Cheryl Langdon-Orr [langdonorr@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2011 9:08 PM To: Fouad Bajwa Cc: ALAC Internal List; ICANN AtLarge Staff; apac-discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org; Sivasubramanian M Subject: Re: [ALAC-Internal] [APAC-Discuss] ALS Application: Netmission.ASIA

Fouad you outline many of the concerns ALAC would be discussing and debating if such a proposal for change was ever to get that far and of course we would also no doubt need to audit changes and claims made in application of existing ALSes (just to be fair) Happy Google searching on all the Members we could list for ISOC-AU and indeed the Membership pf the Organisational Members we list I think you see the tone of my personal view on this... BUT should APRALO desire a change to these ALS application forms you now know how that would need to be approached if it were to have any chance of it happening...

Also note please the Criteria for becoming an ALS does not discuss the need for "members" per se at all... see http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm but rather the criteria is that the minimum standards ARE :

*Minimum criteria for an At-Large Structure:*

1. Commit to supporting individual Internet users' informed participation in ICANN by distributing to individual constituents/members information on relevant ICANN activities and issues, offering Internet-based mechanisms that enable discussions of one or more of these activities and issues among individual constituents/members, and involving individual constituents/members in relevant ICANN policy development, discussions and decisions. 2. Be organised so that participation by individual Internet users who are citizens or residents of countries within the Geographic Region in which the ALS is based will predominate in the ALS' operation. The ALS may permit additional participation by others that is compatible with the interests of the individual Internet users within the region. 3. Be self-supporting (not rely on ICANN for funding). 4. Post on the Internet (on the ALAC's website or elsewhere) publicly-accessible, current information about the ALS's goals, structure, description of constituent group(s)/membership, working mechanisms, leadership, and contact(s). 5. Assist the RALO in performing its function FROM http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/structures-app.htm

As well as "Guidelines for Evaluating an ALS" document where the matters of 'Membership' etc., (amongst other matters) is outlined in full, EN version is found at

https://community.icann.org/download/attachments/2263023/ALAC-2007-SD-2-Rev7...

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)

On 6 April 2011 10:22, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Cheryl and all,

Thank you for sharing this in much detail as it adds to my knowledge as well about how the due diligence works. I believe it is crucial to note here that if the process got involved in checking with each individual their background, that would be first an invasion on one's privacy and secondly it would become a hassle for such a process to fulfill what it is objectively designed and structured to do.

I want to take a brief moment here to explain how I look at applications for joining ALAC through APRALO:

As far as Net Mission application is concerned I believe that since Siva was part of the ICANN fellowship program and there were "adopted fellows" this time from Net Mission in the San Francisco meeting, and I was able to attend most of those fellowship meetings as well as Olivier, the two participants from Net Mission did share quite some information during my interactions. I got to meet the group during the IGF in Lithuania as well. Its important to note that these young participants have found their path in ICANN through ALAC and APRALO.

Another thing to note is that Net Mission Ambassadors are very vocal, transparent and public. Two members participated in the APRALO meeting and I believe Siva took the kind liberty of introducing them in the meeting. One of the ambassador, Michelle Qin has also blogged about her experience at

http://join.ust.hk/blog/michelle-qin/40th-icann-conference-san-francisco.

...

Interesting when we do a search with the names provided in the application such as Richard Cheng the following information pops up http://icannwiki.com/index.php/Richard_Cheng.

Each member listed in the application displays significant participation within ICANN or IGF processes such as Bianca Ho was participating in the IGF and this the workshop officially approved and delivered:

http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/component/chronocontact/?chronoformname=WSPro...

...

If any of our members would like more proof, Net Mission's annual report is a very good evidence of what all these members do:

http://www.ycig.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/NM-annual-report-2009-10-eng-...

...

. In fact each member in that list has details on the web and if I wander to Yvonne Lee, search returns http://sites.google.com/site/yvonneseportfoliobackup/page. These members appear in very good standing, active and I would like to hear their young point of views on Internet user related issues.

Personally speaking, checking on every member of a given ALS application would cause a breach of privacy and on an my own personal individual basis I would not support such a practice neither encourage it within APRALO though consensus is a separate subject.

Maybe such would be otherwise if we initiated the inclusion of individual membership in the future because then an individual would have to go through due diligence. I still have to seek guidance from Cheryl and Olivier in this matter on how to structure such an option in my proposal to APRALO in the near future.

I look forward to Net Mission's application receiving due diligence and it would indeed be a pleasure to meet up with these young leaders again in our interactions during the Singapore meeting.

Take care all.

-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa

On Wed, Apr 6, 2011 at 4:24 AM, Cheryl Langdon-Orr < langdonorr@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hi Siva what goes into being an ALS application form for ICANN is decided by ALAC and approved / negotiated with ICANN (usually Legal advise the Board on this) and ALAC go through considerable work with ICANN Legal on ramifications, purpose and effect of any such changes to ALS application forms and the processes associated with them...

FYI the last major overhaul of this system and forms started in 2007 at the LA Meeting and was completed in 2008... and was in part responding to a matter of complaint (against ALAC) that had been dealt with by the then ICANN Ombudsman... and it is from his recommendations that we also strive so carefully to review ALS applications in such a timely manner and have in the public record the status and progression of received applications.

So if a Region (such as APRALO) believe changes to or additional information is desirable to assist in the role that the RALO Officers have in conducting their part in the Regional Advice on an ALS applicant (which is done after the Due Diligence phase), then the way to get this to happen is to request the RALO to have these suggestions and the rational etc., for them brought forward to the ALAC and to request a process of ALS application form (and possible processing standards etc.,) set for a formal review...

Do let me know if I can assist APRALO with doing any of that...

Cheryl Langdon-Orr (CLO)

On 6 April 2011 03:07, Sivasubramanian M <isolatedn@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Hello

Could there be a section in the ALS application form the applicant to furnish a list of members, each listed with some basic particulars as their profession, the name of the organization they belong to, their position and contact information? That would give us an idea about the diversity of the member base of the proposed ALS.

Thank you.

Sivasubramanian M

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:

...

Dear Marilyn,

Thank you for the update on the application submission by Net Mission. We look forward to the due diligence completion and are positive about Net Mission Hong Kong's possible participation in APRALO.

Best

Fouad

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 5:09 AM, Marilyn Vernon < staff@atlarge.icann.org> wrote: > Dear all, > > This is to inform you that we received an ALS application from > Netmission.ASIA. It is based in Tsim Sha Tsui, Hong Kong and would be a > member of APRALO if accepted. > > Please find the application form attached. The regional liaison for Asia > Pacific has been informed and will provide us with due diligence for this > application in due course. > > -- > Regards, > > Heidi Ullrich, Gisella Gruber-White, Seth Greene, Marilyn Vernon > ICANN At-Large Staff

_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________ ALAC-Internal mailing list ALAC-Internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-internal

ALAC Wiki: http://st.icann.org/alac At-Large Website: http://atlarge.icann.org