I read all that and agree but for many this brief thread between us was probably TL;DR. Executive Summary: "Security" is one of those words like "freedom" or "justice" which we throw many ideas under. At best it's a complicated topic with many sub-topics. At worst it's a cacophony of aspirations which are very difficult to turn into coordinated efforts. Improving security often entails difficult trade-offs between freedom, control, privacy, overhead, and accountability. Everyone wants the results, few want to pay the cost. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*