Re: [At-Large] [lac-discuss-en] GigaOM article : Louis Vuitton asks for SOPA-like seizure of hundreds of websites
Thanks for this Dev. On the bright side, these fellows are taking action in court and using applicable US law, not the summary extra-judicial seizures of Homeland Security/ICE. A third party must be convinced of the merits of the case. They invoked provisions of Lanham; 15 USC 1125(d), to wit: '(d) *Cyberpiracy prevention* (1) (A) A person shall be liable in a civil action by the owner of a mark, including a personal name which is protected as a mark under this section, if, without regard to the goods or services of the parties, that person— (i) has a bad faith intent to profit from that mark, including a personal name which is protected as a mark under this section; and (ii) registers, traffics in, or uses a domain name that— (I) in the case of a mark that is distinctive at the time of registration of the domain name, is identical or confusingly similar to that mark; (II) in the case of a famous mark that is famous at the time of registration of the domain name, is identical or confusingly similar to or dilutive of that mark; or (III) is a trademark, word, or name protected by reason of section 706<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/706> of title 18 <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18> or section 220506<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/220506> of title 36 <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36>.' They 'pray' judgment on all counts as well as '*equitable relief against defendants*'. The judge's response to that second part is to be keenly watched. While the counts could be mistakenly conflated and to ICANN's detriment, only one (1) of the four (4) alleged is really germane to ICANN interests; Count III: Claim for Relief of Cybersquatting. Here's what the writ of mandamus prays in respect of the 381 domains: "b. Entry of an order requiring the Subject Domain Names, and any other domain names being used by Defendants to engage in the business of marketing, offering to sell and/or selling goods bearing counterfeits and infringements of the Louis Vuitton Marks to be disabled and/or immediately transferred by Defendants, their Registrars and/or the Registries to Louis Vuitton’s control so they may no longer be used for illegal purposes. c. Entry of an Order that, upon Louis Vuitton’s request, the top level domain (TLD) Registries for the Subject Domain Names and their administrators place the Subject Domain Names on Registry Hold status, thus removing them from the TLD zone files maintained by the Registries which link the Subject Domain Names to the IP addresses where the associated websites are hosted. d. Entry of an Order that, upon Louis Vuitton’s request, those in privity with Defendants and those with notice of the injunction, including any Internet search engines, Webhosts, domain-name registrars and domain-name registries or their administrators that are provided with notice of the injunction, cease facilitating access to any or all domain names and websites through which Defendants engage in the sale of counterfeit and infringing goods using the Louis Vuitton Marks. e. Entry of an order that, upon Louis Vuitton’s request, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (“ICANN”) shall take all actions necessary to ensure that the Registrars and the top level domain Registries or their administrators responsible for the Subject Domain Names transfer, change the Registrar of Record, and/or disable the Subject Domain Names as directed by the Court. " Let's see what happens now. - Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee@gmail.com>wrote:
GigaOM article : Louis Vuitton asks for SOPA-like seizure of hundreds of websites
http://gigaom.com/2012/05/11/louis-vuitton-asks-for-sopa-like-seizure-of-hun...
The injunction order filed in the Florida court http://www.scribd.com/doc/93228219/Louis-Vuittion-Complaint
lists the 381 domains and the filed injunction includes "..Entry of an order that, upon Louis Vuitton’s request, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (“ICANN”) shall take all actions necessary to ensure that the Registrars and the top level domain Registries or their administrators responsiblefor the Subject Domain Names transfer, change the Registrar of Record, and/or disable the Subject Domain Names as directed by the Court."
---
Dev Anand Teelucksingh
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I know a bit about this as I have been dealing with this issue. Actually the party registering these domains not only targets the marks of Louis Vuitton, but also other brands like Nike, Oakley etc. This party regularly spams forums in an effort at getting quick search engine results. URLs would be spammed to three or four domain names at a time per spam. Now, quite topical and linked to the WHOIS disccusion: This party regularly uses fake whois. This party uses the registrar's DNS servers for his domain (some in the USA). Where I pointed these issues out to one of the USA's largest registrars recently, they tried fobbing it off as a trademark issue. When I "explained" there minimal obligations to them, they turned it into a whois issue and one the domains I mentioned later underwent I whois change, but other discrepancies remained. The thing is the registrant has an extensive domain portfolio and I suspect the registrar did not want to lose this party's business. It sure makes you think .... On 5/14/2012 5:38 AM, Carlton Samuels wrote:
Thanks for this Dev.
On the bright side, these fellows are taking action in court and using applicable US law, not the summary extra-judicial seizures of Homeland Security/ICE. A third party must be convinced of the merits of the case.
They invoked provisions of Lanham; 15 USC 1125(d), to wit:
'(d) *Cyberpiracy prevention* (1) (A) A person shall be liable in a civil action by the owner of a mark, including a personal name which is protected as a mark under this section, if, without regard to the goods or services of the parties, that person— (i) has a bad faith intent to profit from that mark, including a personal name which is protected as a mark under this section; and (ii) registers, traffics in, or uses a domain name that— (I) in the case of a mark that is distinctive at the time of registration of the domain name, is identical or confusingly similar to that mark; (II) in the case of a famous mark that is famous at the time of registration of the domain name, is identical or confusingly similar to or dilutive of that mark; or (III) is a trademark, word, or name protected by reason of section 706<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/706> of title 18 <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18> or section 220506<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/220506> of title 36 <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36>.' They 'pray' judgment on all counts as well as '*equitable relief against defendants*'. The judge's response to that second part is to be keenly watched.
While the counts could be mistakenly conflated and to ICANN's detriment, only one (1) of the four (4) alleged is really germane to ICANN interests; Count III: Claim for Relief of Cybersquatting.
Here's what the writ of mandamus prays in respect of the 381 domains:
"b. Entry of an order requiring the Subject Domain Names, and any other domain names being used by Defendants to engage in the business of marketing, offering to sell and/or selling goods bearing counterfeits and infringements of the Louis Vuitton Marks to be disabled and/or immediately transferred by Defendants, their Registrars and/or the Registries to Louis Vuitton’s control so they may no longer be used for illegal purposes.
c. Entry of an Order that, upon Louis Vuitton’s request, the top level domain (TLD) Registries for the Subject Domain Names and their administrators place the Subject Domain Names on Registry Hold status, thus removing them from the TLD zone files maintained by the Registries which link the Subject Domain Names to the IP addresses where the associated websites are hosted.
d. Entry of an Order that, upon Louis Vuitton’s request, those in privity with Defendants and those with notice of the injunction, including any Internet search engines, Webhosts, domain-name registrars and domain-name registries or their administrators that are provided with notice of the injunction, cease facilitating access to any or all domain names and websites through which Defendants engage in the sale of counterfeit and infringing goods using the Louis Vuitton Marks.
e. Entry of an order that, upon Louis Vuitton’s request, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (“ICANN”) shall take all actions necessary to ensure that the Registrars and the top level domain Registries or their administrators responsible for the Subject Domain Names transfer, change the Registrar of Record, and/or disable the Subject Domain Names as directed by the Court. "
Let's see what happens now.
- Carlton
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee@gmail.com>wrote:
GigaOM article : Louis Vuitton asks for SOPA-like seizure of hundreds of websites
http://gigaom.com/2012/05/11/louis-vuitton-asks-for-sopa-like-seizure-of-hun...
The injunction order filed in the Florida court http://www.scribd.com/doc/93228219/Louis-Vuittion-Complaint
lists the 381 domains and the filed injunction includes "..Entry of an order that, upon Louis Vuitton’s request, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (“ICANN”) shall take all actions necessary to ensure that the Registrars and the top level domain Registries or their administrators responsiblefor the Subject Domain Names transfer, change the Registrar of Record, and/or disable the Subject Domain Names as directed by the Court."
---
Dev Anand Teelucksingh
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I am currently litigating this issue against NameCheap. They have been providing proxy service for spammers. In the past, they had been sanctioned for failing to respond to subpoenas requesting information on domains that they protect for spammers. Since ICANN included no 3rd party beneficiary language in the registrar-registrant agreements, the only way to get results is to hold proxy service providers liable for the acts of the people they license the domain to.
I know a bit about this as I have been dealing with this issue.
Actually the party registering these domains not only targets the marks of Louis Vuitton, but also other brands like Nike, Oakley etc.
This party regularly spams forums in an effort at getting quick search engine results. URLs would be spammed to three or four domain names at a time per spam.
Now, quite topical and linked to the WHOIS disccusion: This party regularly uses fake whois. This party uses the registrar's DNS servers for his domain (some in the USA).
Where I pointed these issues out to one of the USA's largest registrars recently, they tried fobbing it off as a trademark issue.
When I "explained" there minimal obligations to them, they turned it into a whois issue and one the domains I mentioned later underwent I whois change, but other discrepancies remained.
The thing is the registrant has an extensive domain portfolio and I suspect the registrar did not want to lose this party's business.
It sure makes you think ....
On 5/14/2012 5:38 AM, Carlton Samuels wrote:
Thanks for this Dev.
On the bright side, these fellows are taking action in court and using applicable US law, not the summary extra-judicial seizures of Homeland Security/ICE. A third party must be convinced of the merits of the case.
They invoked provisions of Lanham; 15 USC 1125(d), to wit:
'(d) *Cyberpiracy prevention* (1) (A) A person shall be liable in a civil action by the owner of a mark, including a personal name which is protected as a mark under this section, if, without regard to the goods or services of the parties, that person (i) has a bad faith intent to profit from that mark, including a personal name which is protected as a mark under this section; and (ii) registers, traffics in, or uses a domain name that (I) in the case of a mark that is distinctive at the time of registration of the domain name, is identical or confusingly similar to that mark; (II) in the case of a famous mark that is famous at the time of registration of the domain name, is identical or confusingly similar to or dilutive of that mark; or (III) is a trademark, word, or name protected by reason of section 706<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/706> of title 18 <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18> or section 220506<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/220506> of title 36 <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36>.' They 'pray' judgment on all counts as well as '*equitable relief against defendants*'. The judge's response to that second part is to be keenly watched.
While the counts could be mistakenly conflated and to ICANN's detriment, only one (1) of the four (4) alleged is really germane to ICANN interests; Count III: Claim for Relief of Cybersquatting.
Here's what the writ of mandamus prays in respect of the 381 domains:
"b. Entry of an order requiring the Subject Domain Names, and any other domain names being used by Defendants to engage in the business of marketing, offering to sell and/or selling goods bearing counterfeits and infringements of the Louis Vuitton Marks to be disabled and/or immediately transferred by Defendants, their Registrars and/or the Registries to Louis Vuittons control so they may no longer be used for illegal purposes.
c. Entry of an Order that, upon Louis Vuittons request, the top level domain (TLD) Registries for the Subject Domain Names and their administrators place the Subject Domain Names on Registry Hold status, thus removing them from the TLD zone files maintained by the Registries which link the Subject Domain Names to the IP addresses where the associated websites are hosted.
d. Entry of an Order that, upon Louis Vuittons request, those in privity with Defendants and those with notice of the injunction, including any Internet search engines, Webhosts, domain-name registrars and domain-name registries or their administrators that are provided with notice of the injunction, cease facilitating access to any or all domain names and websites through which Defendants engage in the sale of counterfeit and infringing goods using the Louis Vuitton Marks.
e. Entry of an order that, upon Louis Vuittons request, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) shall take all actions necessary to ensure that the Registrars and the top level domain Registries or their administrators responsible for the Subject Domain Names transfer, change the Registrar of Record, and/or disable the Subject Domain Names as directed by the Court. "
Let's see what happens now.
- Carlton
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee@gmail.com>wrote:
GigaOM article : Louis Vuitton asks for SOPA-like seizure of hundreds of websites
http://gigaom.com/2012/05/11/louis-vuitton-asks-for-sopa-like-seizure-of-hun...
The injunction order filed in the Florida court http://www.scribd.com/doc/93228219/Louis-Vuittion-Complaint
lists the 381 domains and the filed injunction includes "..Entry of an order that, upon Louis Vuittons request, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) shall take all actions necessary to ensure that the Registrars and the top level domain Registries or their administrators responsiblefor the Subject Domain Names transfer, change the Registrar of Record, and/or disable the Subject Domain Names as directed by the Court."
---
Dev Anand Teelucksingh
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Dear Bill: Apropos to your last paragraph, you might be interested in this: The WHOIS Policy Review Team, constituted under ICANN's Affirmation of Commitments (AoC) agreement with the U.S. Department of Commerce, submitted its *Final Report and Recommendations<http://www.icann.org/en/about/aoc-review/whois/final-report-11may12-en.pdf> * to the ICANN Board and this document has been posted for public comment. Note the recommendation: The RT is in favour of " *a clear, unambiguous and enforceable chain of **contractual agreements with registries, registrars, and registrants to require the **provision and maintenance of accurate WHOIS data*.". - Carlton Samuels ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Bill Silverstein <icann-list@sorehands.com>wrote:
I am currently litigating this issue against NameCheap. They have been providing proxy service for spammers.
In the past, they had been sanctioned for failing to respond to subpoenas requesting information on domains that they protect for spammers.
Since ICANN included no 3rd party beneficiary language in the registrar-registrant agreements, the only way to get results is to hold proxy service providers liable for the acts of the people they license the domain to.
I know a bit about this as I have been dealing with this issue.
Actually the party registering these domains not only targets the marks of Louis Vuitton, but also other brands like Nike, Oakley etc.
This party regularly spams forums in an effort at getting quick search engine results. URLs would be spammed to three or four domain names at a time per spam.
Now, quite topical and linked to the WHOIS disccusion: This party regularly uses fake whois. This party uses the registrar's DNS servers for his domain (some in the USA).
Where I pointed these issues out to one of the USA's largest registrars recently, they tried fobbing it off as a trademark issue.
When I "explained" there minimal obligations to them, they turned it into a whois issue and one the domains I mentioned later underwent I whois change, but other discrepancies remained.
The thing is the registrant has an extensive domain portfolio and I suspect the registrar did not want to lose this party's business.
It sure makes you think ....
On 5/14/2012 5:38 AM, Carlton Samuels wrote:
Thanks for this Dev.
On the bright side, these fellows are taking action in court and using applicable US law, not the summary extra-judicial seizures of Homeland Security/ICE. A third party must be convinced of the merits of the case.
They invoked provisions of Lanham; 15 USC 1125(d), to wit:
'(d) *Cyberpiracy prevention* (1) (A) A person shall be liable in a civil action by the owner of a mark, including a personal name which is protected as a mark under this section, if, without regard to the goods or services of the parties, that person— (i) has a bad faith intent to profit from that mark, including a personal name which is protected as a mark under this section; and (ii) registers, traffics in, or uses a domain name that— (I) in the case of a mark that is distinctive at the time of registration of the domain name, is identical or confusingly similar to that mark; (II) in the case of a famous mark that is famous at the time of registration of the domain name, is identical or confusingly similar to or dilutive of that mark; or (III) is a trademark, word, or name protected by reason of section 706<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/706> of title 18 <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18> or section 220506<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36/220506> of title 36 <http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/36>.' They 'pray' judgment on all counts as well as '*equitable relief against defendants*'. The judge's response to that second part is to be keenly watched.
While the counts could be mistakenly conflated and to ICANN's detriment, only one (1) of the four (4) alleged is really germane to ICANN interests; Count III: Claim for Relief of Cybersquatting.
Here's what the writ of mandamus prays in respect of the 381 domains:
"b. Entry of an order requiring the Subject Domain Names, and any other domain names being used by Defendants to engage in the business of marketing, offering to sell and/or selling goods bearing counterfeits and infringements of the Louis Vuitton Marks to be disabled and/or immediately transferred by Defendants, their Registrars and/or the Registries to Louis Vuitton’s control so they may no longer be used for illegal purposes.
c. Entry of an Order that, upon Louis Vuitton’s request, the top level domain (TLD) Registries for the Subject Domain Names and their administrators place the Subject Domain Names on Registry Hold status, thus removing them from the TLD zone files maintained by the Registries which link the Subject Domain Names to the IP addresses where the associated websites are hosted.
d. Entry of an Order that, upon Louis Vuitton’s request, those in privity with Defendants and those with notice of the injunction, including any Internet search engines, Webhosts, domain-name registrars and domain-name registries or their administrators that are provided with notice of the injunction, cease facilitating access to any or all domain names and websites through which Defendants engage in the sale of counterfeit and infringing goods using the Louis Vuitton Marks.
e. Entry of an order that, upon Louis Vuitton’s request, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (“ICANN”) shall take all actions necessary to ensure that the Registrars and the top level domain Registries or their administrators responsible for the Subject Domain Names transfer, change the Registrar of Record, and/or disable the Subject Domain Names as directed by the Court. "
Let's see what happens now.
- Carlton
============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* =============================
On Fri, May 11, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Dev Anand Teelucksingh <devtee@gmail.com>wrote:
GigaOM article : Louis Vuitton asks for SOPA-like seizure of hundreds of websites
http://gigaom.com/2012/05/11/louis-vuitton-asks-for-sopa-like-seizure-of-hun...
The injunction order filed in the Florida court http://www.scribd.com/doc/93228219/Louis-Vuittion-Complaint
lists the 381 domains and the filed injunction includes "..Entry of an order that, upon Louis Vuitton’s request, the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (“ICANN”) shall take all actions necessary to ensure that the Registrars and the top level domain Registries or their administrators responsiblefor the Subject Domain Names transfer, change the Registrar of Record, and/or disable the Subject Domain Names as directed by the Court."
---
Dev Anand Teelucksingh
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On 05/14/2012 12:59 PM, Carlton Samuels wrote:
Note the recommendation:
The RT is in favour of " *a clear, unambiguous and enforceable chain of **contractual agreements with registries, registrars, and registrants to require the **provision and maintenance of accurate WHOIS data*.".
That is a far cry from a third-party-beneficiary rule. The sentence you quote essentially says "The RT is in favour of the status quo". What Bill S. was asking for was a third party beneficiary provision that gives designated third party individuals or classes (who might not even be registrants, registrars, or registries - or anybody else associated with ICANN) the power to enforce the contractual terms even if one of the actual parties to the contract doesn't come forward to enforce it itself. In general I think that ICANN has done a lousy job in that it has very expressly rejected third party beneficiary rights in anything it does ever since it was formed. We saw that happen most forcefully in the RegisterFly situation where ICANN failed to enforce contract terms while registrants were being harmed left and right. (I do, however, believe that the whois is a privacy disaster, that the report contains a revisionist history to support its conclusions, that there are plenty of means to go after evil doers even if those means might be less convenient than a rope and a nearby tree, and that there is a lot of post hoc ergo hoc logic going in that those who are accused are stripped of protections merely because they have been accused.) --karl--
Karl, I find myself agreeing with much of what you say for a change :) On 5/14/2012 10:29 PM, Karl Auerbach wrote:
On 05/14/2012 12:59 PM, Carlton Samuels wrote:
Note the recommendation:
The RT is in favour of " *a clear, unambiguous and enforceable chain of **contractual agreements with registries, registrars, and registrants to require the **provision and maintenance of accurate WHOIS data*.".
That is a far cry from a third-party-beneficiary rule.
The sentence you quote essentially says "The RT is in favour of the status quo".
What Bill S. was asking for was a third party beneficiary provision that gives designated third party individuals or classes (who might not even be registrants, registrars, or registries - or anybody else associated with ICANN) the power to enforce the contractual terms even if one of the actual parties to the contract doesn't come forward to enforce it itself.
That may be easily possible if the general public outside the spheres mentioned above are deliberately harmed by the registrant using such domain abuse. Invariably the perpetrator will also use fake registration details in these cases. Third parties are implied to a certain extent in the RAA and domain registration agreements. What I would really love to know is how any binding contract can exist if the registrant provides fake whois details to start off with. How can the Registrar be held blameless by the registrant (and all those nice provisions) when the registrant is acting in bad faith? To make matter worse, what happens if a Registrar is notified of domains sponsored by them with invalid whois details and the registrant is deliberately trying to harm third parties, yet the Registrar allows these domains to continue resolving; these domains might also be using the Registrar's DNS services as well.
In general I think that ICANN has done a lousy job in that it has very expressly rejected third party beneficiary rights in anything it does ever since it was formed. We saw that happen most forcefully in the RegisterFly situation where ICANN failed to enforce contract terms while registrants were being harmed left and right.
I agree. Not only does it harm registrant, but also the other third parties.
(I do, however, believe that the whois is a privacy disaster, that the report contains a revisionist history to support its conclusions, that there are plenty of means to go after evil doers even if those means might be less convenient than a rope and a nearby tree, and that there is a lot of post hoc ergo hoc logic going in that those who are accused are stripped of protections merely because they have been accused.)
Yet we will not improve/move from this situation either way until such a time as more accountability is built into the system that is actually enforced. We desperately need privacy, but given the current state of the registration data contained and policy enforcement, applying privacy would only hide a massive can of worms, aggravating the issue and harm done still further.
--karl--
Derek
The sentence you quote essentially says "The RT is in favour of the status quo".
No, it's in favor of doing what ICANN has sort of said they'd do but never actually done. I think a 3rd party rule would be nice, but I'd rather have useful data without it than the current half-useless data with it.
(I do, however, believe that the whois is a privacy disaster
The anonymity for criminals with vanity domains argument is so 20th century. R's, John
I thought a criminal was someone convicted of a crime by a court. On May 14, 2012, at 2:18 PM, John R. Levine wrote:
The sentence you quote essentially says "The RT is in favour of the status quo".
No, it's in favor of doing what ICANN has sort of said they'd do but never actually done. I think a 3rd party rule would be nice, but I'd rather have useful data without it than the current half-useless data with it.
(I do, however, believe that the whois is a privacy disaster
The anonymity for criminals with vanity domains argument is so 20th century.
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I thought a criminal was someone convicted of a crime by a court.
No, a criminal is someone who has committed a crime. A convicted criminal is someone who's been convicted by a court. Or are you saying that if I beat you to death with a rock, then ran away leaving insufficient clues for law enforcement to catch me, I wouldn't be a criminal? R's, John
The anonymity for criminals with vanity domains argument is so 20th century.
If you did it in self-defense (for instance), you wouldn't be a criminal. That's why we have courts. Accusation is insufficient. On May 14, 2012, at 3:13 PM, John R. Levine wrote:
I thought a criminal was someone convicted of a crime by a court.
No, a criminal is someone who has committed a crime. A convicted criminal is someone who's been convicted by a court.
Or are you saying that if I beat you to death with a rock, then ran away leaving insufficient clues for law enforcement to catch me, I wouldn't be a criminal?
R's, John
The anonymity for criminals with vanity domains argument is so 20th century.
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If you did it in self-defense (for instance), you wouldn't be a criminal. That's why we have courts. Accusation is insufficient.
I have to say I'm not at all understanding what point you're trying to make. R's, John
I know On May 14, 2012, at 5:23 PM, John R. Levine wrote:
I have to say I'm not at all understanding what point you're trying to make.
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On 05/14/2012 03:13 PM, John R. Levine wrote:
I thought a criminal was someone convicted of a crime by a court.
No, a criminal is someone who has committed a crime. A convicted criminal is someone who's been convicted by a court.
Or are you saying that if I beat you to death with a rock, then ran away leaving insufficient clues for law enforcement to catch me, I wouldn't be a criminal?
That's leaping to a conclusion... Perhaps you had justification or you are incompetent or there was a war going on - in which case there would have been no crime committed. Until there has been an accusation supported by sufficient concrete evidence to form "probably cause" as measured by an independent and disinterested third party the accused should enjoy full liberty of action. And until there has been a prompt and fair trial with due process the accused is merely an accused and should have full rights and protections. Otherwise we are just laying the first bricks of iGuantanamo Bay. What I am hearing here is that some people want a mere and naked accusation to cause the accused to suffer instantaneous loss of rights and privileges. Yes, there have been systems of governance built that way. But I tend to find those kinds of accuse-execute-and-let-god-sort-out-the-innocent systems to be somewhat mediaeval. I prefer systems in which those who chose to accuse and prosecute should have to work to gather evidence and prove their cases *before* the accused is condemned and handed over to the secular branch. --karl--
On 5/14/2012 11:25 PM, Antony Van Couvering wrote:
I thought a criminal was someone convicted of a crime by a court.
criminal (noun): a person who commits a crime crime (noun): activities that involve breaking the law I actually find it pathetic that we are debating this. But here goes... We all (should) know we cannot simply walk into a stranger's house and steal his property. Nor can we go into his bank and pretend to be him, stealing his money. The virtual nature of the net does not change that. What it does change is it's international reach allowing criminals to evade prosecution. Yet the crimes are still as real. If it takes a conviction to label the actions parties criminal or label those committing fraud criminals, we would have hardly any criminals on the net. I find it sad that the laws of most countries have clauses like losses under XXX, losses over XXX. Effectively that means most criminals will never be prosecuted due to the international nature of the internet. This is an insult to the victims of "under XXX" who will never see justice, yet they also have rights. If you explain the happy-go-lucky unaccountable nature of the Internet, they cannot belive it. The current system is failing these victims. We can quote those lovely terms like the "The Budapest Convention on Cyber Crime" etc, yet the reality is it is not stopping cyber crime since even these agreements do not cover all the countries. Even where they do, the one country may attach a different priority to it since they are not affected. Even most of the lottery/pet/fake-shop/auction scammers know how to stay under the radar by regularly changing identities and defrauding in small amounts, using all those anonymizing mechanisms the internet provides free of charge to "protect your privacy". This hypocrisy is even apparent at some domain registrars and resellers, selling trust and stability away $10 a shot then turning a blind eye to the wrong doing. How many real victims to fraud do we have vs the hypothetical political refugee trying to use the net for his plight? Why should those daily real unwilling victims be sacrificial lambs for the hypothetical politically prosecuted? What gives the one more right than the other? I would love to see how many refugees use the domains on the net as a platform vs actual daily victims to fraud. I am sure those hypothetical refugees would not be registering in their own domains anyway even if the wanted to. They would be sure to find a trusted sponsor abroad. So let's keep this real please. Cyber crime is no less real than crime. Those victims also have rights. I have met many victims to cyber crime (three again today alone). But I have yet to meet "that" political refugee wishing to register a domain in his own name using a proxy service to voice his opinions. Derek
Cybercrime is real crime. Lots of crime is real. Society has come up with methods to deal with real crime. Throughout the developed world, those methods are remarkably similar. They include an investigation, an indictment, an arrest (sometimes), a procedure to determine if the accusation is warranted and proven, and if so then some kind of penalty. I'm totally in favor of prosecuting crime. There are established ways of doing that. Tearing down hundreds of years of jurisprudence because the crime is committed via the Internet instead of (for instance) the telephone, seems to me unwarranted. I appreciate that you see the victims, that you are in the trenches seeing the damage they wreak. But I don't think that calls for the wholesale dismantling of well established procedures. That's just my view, but I've been following this debate for many years and nothing has made me think that this crisis is so severe that we should think casually about rejecting basic protections for the accused. I believe that this is dangerous. Antony On May 14, 2012, at 4:49 PM, Derek Smythe wrote:
On 5/14/2012 11:25 PM, Antony Van Couvering wrote:
I thought a criminal was someone convicted of a crime by a court.
criminal (noun): a person who commits a crime crime (noun): activities that involve breaking the law
I actually find it pathetic that we are debating this. But here goes...
We all (should) know we cannot simply walk into a stranger's house and steal his property. Nor can we go into his bank and pretend to be him, stealing his money.
The virtual nature of the net does not change that. What it does change is it's international reach allowing criminals to evade prosecution. Yet the crimes are still as real.
If it takes a conviction to label the actions parties criminal or label those committing fraud criminals, we would have hardly any criminals on the net.
I find it sad that the laws of most countries have clauses like losses under XXX, losses over XXX. Effectively that means most criminals will never be prosecuted due to the international nature of the internet. This is an insult to the victims of "under XXX" who will never see justice, yet they also have rights. If you explain the happy-go-lucky unaccountable nature of the Internet, they cannot belive it. The current system is failing these victims. We can quote those lovely terms like the "The Budapest Convention on Cyber Crime" etc, yet the reality is it is not stopping cyber crime since even these agreements do not cover all the countries. Even where they do, the one country may attach a different priority to it since they are not affected.
Even most of the lottery/pet/fake-shop/auction scammers know how to stay under the radar by regularly changing identities and defrauding in small amounts, using all those anonymizing mechanisms the internet provides free of charge to "protect your privacy". This hypocrisy is even apparent at some domain registrars and resellers, selling trust and stability away $10 a shot then turning a blind eye to the wrong doing.
How many real victims to fraud do we have vs the hypothetical political refugee trying to use the net for his plight? Why should those daily real unwilling victims be sacrificial lambs for the hypothetical politically prosecuted? What gives the one more right than the other? I would love to see how many refugees use the domains on the net as a platform vs actual daily victims to fraud. I am sure those hypothetical refugees would not be registering in their own domains anyway even if the wanted to. They would be sure to find a trusted sponsor abroad.
So let's keep this real please. Cyber crime is no less real than crime. Those victims also have rights. I have met many victims to cyber crime (three again today alone). But I have yet to meet "that" political refugee wishing to register a domain in his own name using a proxy service to voice his opinions.
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Is DSK a criminal? In the USA you would say yes, in Europe we would say no this rely on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence This is why in Europe you say presumed innocent rather than criminal until the trial is finished otherwise this may lead to libel. see the header on http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affaire_Dominique_Strauss-Kahn
Nobody is saying we should be vigilantes. What I am saying is we have to give law enforcement the tools to be able to do their work. At the same time we should take cognizance of the international nature of the net. A while back we drew the analogies between real world proxy registrations and the sad excuse for it we see on the net, which is nothing else than crime facilitation for whosoever wishes so. Trying to make criminal abuse issues the responsibility of law enforcement while we create the perfect system for criminals is what has been happening; Fake whois, no whois collected, anonymous proxies with no logs, methods of anonymous funds transfers etc, the list goes on and on. Then we bless it with "privacy". Yet all these various service providers in the internet industry each use the "LE" crutch, making it a virtually impossible task for these officials to effectively protect us. However talking about a criminals and criminality is what is happening and topical. Do we allow the mechanism to be abused, or do we build in check and balances? On 5/15/2012 2:10 AM, Antony Van Couvering wrote:
Cybercrime is real crime. Lots of crime is real. Society has come up with methods to deal with real crime. Throughout the developed world, those methods are remarkably similar. They include an investigation, an indictment, an arrest (sometimes), a procedure to determine if the accusation is warranted and proven, and if so then some kind of penalty.
I'm totally in favor of prosecuting crime. There are established ways of doing that. Tearing down hundreds of years of jurisprudence because the crime is committed via the Internet instead of (for instance) the telephone, seems to me unwarranted. I appreciate that you see the victims, that you are in the trenches seeing the damage they wreak. But I don't think that calls for the wholesale dismantling of well established procedures.
That's just my view, but I've been following this debate for many years and nothing has made me think that this crisis is so severe that we should think casually about rejecting basic protections for the accused. I believe that this is dangerous.
Antony
On May 14, 2012, at 4:49 PM, Derek Smythe wrote:
On 5/14/2012 11:25 PM, Antony Van Couvering wrote:
I thought a criminal was someone convicted of a crime by a court.
criminal (noun): a person who commits a crime crime (noun): activities that involve breaking the law
I actually find it pathetic that we are debating this. But here goes...
We all (should) know we cannot simply walk into a stranger's house and steal his property. Nor can we go into his bank and pretend to be him, stealing his money.
The virtual nature of the net does not change that. What it does change is it's international reach allowing criminals to evade prosecution. Yet the crimes are still as real.
If it takes a conviction to label the actions parties criminal or label those committing fraud criminals, we would have hardly any criminals on the net.
I find it sad that the laws of most countries have clauses like losses under XXX, losses over XXX. Effectively that means most criminals will never be prosecuted due to the international nature of the internet. This is an insult to the victims of "under XXX" who will never see justice, yet they also have rights. If you explain the happy-go-lucky unaccountable nature of the Internet, they cannot belive it. The current system is failing these victims. We can quote those lovely terms like the "The Budapest Convention on Cyber Crime" etc, yet the reality is it is not stopping cyber crime since even these agreements do not cover all the countries. Even where they do, the one country may attach a different priority to it since they are not affected.
Even most of the lottery/pet/fake-shop/auction scammers know how to stay under the radar by regularly changing identities and defrauding in small amounts, using all those anonymizing mechanisms the internet provides free of charge to "protect your privacy". This hypocrisy is even apparent at some domain registrars and resellers, selling trust and stability away $10 a shot then turning a blind eye to the wrong doing.
How many real victims to fraud do we have vs the hypothetical political refugee trying to use the net for his plight? Why should those daily real unwilling victims be sacrificial lambs for the hypothetical politically prosecuted? What gives the one more right than the other? I would love to see how many refugees use the domains on the net as a platform vs actual daily victims to fraud. I am sure those hypothetical refugees would not be registering in their own domains anyway even if the wanted to. They would be sure to find a trusted sponsor abroad.
So let's keep this real please. Cyber crime is no less real than crime. Those victims also have rights. I have met many victims to cyber crime (three again today alone). But I have yet to meet "that" political refugee wishing to register a domain in his own name using a proxy service to voice his opinions.
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On 05/14/2012 05:44 PM, Derek Smythe wrote:
Nobody is saying we should be vigilantes. What I am saying is we have to give law enforcement the tools to be able to do their work. At the same time we should take cognizance of the international nature of the net.
Those tool, at least here in the US, are called a subpoena, or a search warrant, an indictment, etc. There are rules about how those are executed and issued. Police have always found them inconvenient. But then again, all rights are inconvenient to those who wish to intrude upon them. Here in the US even those accused of being "terrorists" get the benefit of a FISA court. It strikes me as odd that those accused of internet bad acts are deserving of fewer protections than that accused terrorist with the ticking bomb. Having seen official bad acts, including police murder of a naked man, I am not one to concede the height of wisdom and unbiased justice to those who carry the banner of "law enforcement". Breaching Whois privacy may seem a small step, a small price. But as Avri points out, it is not hard to see where protection of identity on the internet *is* important and of great social value. --karl--
On 5/15/2012 3:49 AM, Karl Auerbach wrote:
Having seen official bad acts, including police murder of a naked man, I am not one to concede the height of wisdom and unbiased justice to those who carry the banner of "law enforcement".
By the same token we could refer to lawyers that got greedy and pilfered trust funds. we could talk about magistrates that turned out to be pedophiles .... At least the bulk of these are traceable and can be held accountable. Bad deeds comes down to individuals. Generalizing helps nobody but statistics would help. If we do not allow the police to investigate crime, what do we tell the greater unwashed that are constantly victims to cyber fraud? Internet or not. Or do we simply accept we are now so neurotic that police which are an integral part of law and order in civilized society, should disappear. Then, with a big part of the enforcement system gone, we are doomed to descend into anarchy? And once they have somehow gotten past that not so small hurdle, what do we tell those victims once privacy as it stands now is uncovered and it's just more of the same old junk whois data? A lawyer in Somalia and Hong Kong maybe who is guaranteed to obstruct any investigation? I have no problem with privacy. I'm saying the current farce that is held up for privacy protection should not be simply another layer for criminals to use, whoever they may be. This simply further facilitates crime and unaccountability. Also note there is a big leap between saying so-and-so is a criminal, vs referring to an incident where a criminal perpetrated a crime. If someone sells something on the net, using a "courier" website with a domain deliberately meant to deceive, that is fraud By the time this pattern has repeated 10 or 20 times, there is no doubt we have a crime with a criminal or criminals committing fraud. Likewise, if I register a domain to commit fraud using identity theft, it is also a crime. If I am in the position to identify the perpetrator, that information goes to the relevant law authorities to trace and name the criminal. D
On 05/14/2012 07:28 PM, Derek Smythe wrote:
Also note there is a big leap between saying so-and-so is a criminal, vs referring to an incident where a criminal perpetrated a crime. If someone sells something on the net, using a "courier" website with a domain deliberately meant to deceive, that is fraud By the time this pattern has repeated 10 or 20 times, there is no doubt we have a crime with a criminal or criminals committing fraud. Likewise, if I register a domain to commit fraud using identity theft, it is also a crime.
Let's dig a bit deeper - there may be perfectly valid, lawful reasons why names and websites have odd stuff on 'em, or that the situation may not rise to either civil or criminal "fraud". Let's look at the old classical definition of fraud - An intentional misrepresentation of a material fact upon which another relies to his detriment. Is what you are seeing "intentional"? How do you know? I've managed to screw up many of my own websites with a single slip of the sed script. Intent is a very sticky and hard question, particularly when one tries to impute actual subjective intent. Is it a misrepresentation? That's a tough one. Is "firestone-tires-go-boom" a misrepresentation that the material on a website is from the firestone tire company? Or is it just a commentary or even a joke or parody? Is it a fact? If so is it a material fact? Or is it ancillary? And who decides? Did someone rely upon that misrepresentation? How do we know? Hypothetical guesses that "somebody could have" don't necessarily meet that criterion. Did that reliance lead to detriment? Even when one gets through all of that there are procedural questions such as whether you, as an observer, have standing to complain. The point of this exercise is that accusations are easy; actually following through and demonstrating that someone is guilty is hard. It is painfully hard, sometimes (perhaps even often) it is either impossible or infeasibly hard. And that's the way it ought to be. In most legal systems around the world there is some sort of procedure (most in criminal procedures, but also in civil) that can happen fairly quickly after an accusation in which the accuser has to provide something concrete showing that whatever happened looks, walks and quacks like an unlawful duck. Those who wish to penetrate whois should, indeed ought, to be required to place concrete evidence on the table that supports every element of the accusation (including the identity of the accuser.) Moreover, accusation is cheap, so there ought to be some sort of pain for accusations made with reckless disregard of the truth or with negligence. (BTW, The UK laws of defamation provide an example of a hurdle which is excessively high.) Don't forget the opening like of Kafka's book "The Trial" - "Someone must have been telling lies about Josef K., he knew he had done nothing wrong but, one morning, he was arrested." --karl--
Karl, Owners of properties information are a matter of public record in this county. In most states the identities of the owners of corporations are public record. Fictitiously named businesses are a matter of public record. Even if the owners' address of all the above are not listed, in most cases, the identity of the person who is authorized to receive service of process are available. You also ignore that in a majority of the smaller crimes, that law enforcement will not do anything about it unless handed a nice tidy package with a bow on it.
On 05/14/2012 05:44 PM, Derek Smythe wrote:
Nobody is saying we should be vigilantes. What I am saying is we have to give law enforcement the tools to be able to do their work. At the same time we should take cognizance of the international nature of the net.
Those tool, at least here in the US, are called a subpoena, or a search warrant, an indictment, etc.
There are rules about how those are executed and issued.
Police have always found them inconvenient.
But then again, all rights are inconvenient to those who wish to intrude upon them.
Here in the US even those accused of being "terrorists" get the benefit of a FISA court.
It strikes me as odd that those accused of internet bad acts are deserving of fewer protections than that accused terrorist with the ticking bomb.
Having seen official bad acts, including police murder of a naked man, I am not one to concede the height of wisdom and unbiased justice to those who carry the banner of "law enforcement".
Breaching Whois privacy may seem a small step, a small price. But as Avri points out, it is not hard to see where protection of identity on the internet *is* important and of great social value.
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On 05/14/2012 07:41 PM, Bill Silverstein wrote: ,
Owners of properties information are a matter of public record in this county. In most states the identities of the owners of corporations are public record. Fictitiously named businesses are a matter of public record. Even if the owners' address of all the above are not listed, in most cases, the identity of the person who is authorized to receive service of process are available.
To which I respond, so what? Yes, real property is subject to public record but it is frequently masked through layers of corporations. There is a beach near here that is so enshrouded by layers of corporations that even the California Coastal Commission can't figure out who owns it. The laws of real property in many US states tend to be rooted in ancient English laws that are largely discredited today - like the ones about "entailing" estates only to the eldest male descendent. Traditions started by William the Conqueror's Domesday Book aren't necessarily wise things to continue without alternation into the modern era. As for corporations - yes they need to publish a service of process point. But that's just for service of process to begin a legal procedure - Here in California it is very frequently the almost unrevealing "C T Corporation System", I'm sure you've run into them and they will and do efficiently forward your missive to whomever. Absent cooperation, penetrating "the corporate veil" to any deeper degree takes a positive accusation supported by evidence. By-the-way, there are more counter-examples than examples of situations in which people who engage in acts are *not* required to make a public disclosure of any sort. For example, I can buy and use a telephone or publish a newpaper or establish a church or walk down the street or give food to a hungry person. I can even buy screwdrivers and hammers and flashlights (oh my) - which could be used for burglary - without presenting any bit of identification.
You also ignore that in a majority of the smaller crimes, that law enforcement will not do anything about it unless handed a nice tidy package with a bow on it.
Ah, the old "if I the voters in my city aren't willing to vote for enough taxes to pay the police to do what I want them to do then I have the right to put on a badge and be a do-it-yourself cop" argument. That kind of person is often called a "vigilante". If one can't convince real law enforcement to take up a matter, then that might be a message that things might not be as bad one thinks. --karl--
What is the RT? CW On 14 May 2012, at 23:18, John R. Levine wrote:
The sentence you quote essentially says "The RT is in favour of the status quo".
No, it's in favor of doing what ICANN has sort of said they'd do but never actually done. I think a 3rd party rule would be nice, but I'd rather have useful data without it than the current half-useless data with it.
(I do, however, believe that the whois is a privacy disaster
The anonymity for criminals with vanity domains argument is so 20th century.
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What is the RT?
CW
RT = Review Team Rudi Vansnick Op 14-mei-2012, om 23:30 heeft Christopher Wilkinson het volgende geschreven:
What is the RT?
CW
On 14 May 2012, at 23:18, John R. Levine wrote:
The sentence you quote essentially says "The RT is in favour of the status quo".
No, it's in favor of doing what ICANN has sort of said they'd do but never actually done. I think a 3rd party rule would be nice, but I'd rather have useful data without it than the current half-useless data with it.
(I do, however, believe that the whois is a privacy disaster
The anonymity for criminals with vanity domains argument is so 20th century.
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On 14 May 2012 17:18, John R. Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
(I do, however, believe that the whois is a privacy disaster
The anonymity for criminals with vanity domains argument is so 20th century.
In my own opinion, the argument about providing privacy to domain owners *must* be decoupled from the matter of WHOIS accuracy and stability. The unwillingness to decouple these issues has been an impediment to sane policy, and I see this report as a step in the right direction. There are discussions over tactics that could be done to enhance privacy protections for those who are not using it to defraud, but those discussions are IMO unrelated to the more common-sense matter of registrants providing deliberately obfuscated contact information. (Ultimately, I would wish to dig even deeper than this, and challenge the widely-held-within-ICANN assumption that everyone on earth ought to own at least one domain. This unspoken assumption drives everything from WHOIS policy, to attitudes on domaining and the new gTLD program, to ICANN's warped definition of "consumer". IMO this assumption needs to be exposed, confronted, and beaten down with a stick.) - Evan
The problem with decoupling is that it is dangerous for many non criminals (except for those guilty for free speech crimes under repressive regimes) to give true information unti there is privacy. The issues MUST remian coupled. avri Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
On 14 May 2012 17:18, John R. Levine <johnl@iecc.com> wrote:
(I do, however, believe that the whois is a privacy disaster
The anonymity for criminals with vanity domains argument is so 20th century.
In my own opinion, the argument about providing privacy to domain owners *must* be decoupled from the matter of WHOIS accuracy and stability. The unwillingness to decouple these issues has been an impediment to sane policy, and I see this report as a step in the right direction.
There are discussions over tactics that could be done to enhance privacy protections for those who are not using it to defraud, but those discussions are IMO unrelated to the more common-sense matter of registrants providing deliberately obfuscated contact information.
(Ultimately, I would wish to dig even deeper than this, and challenge the widely-held-within-ICANN assumption that everyone on earth ought to own at least one domain. This unspoken assumption drives everything from WHOIS policy, to attitudes on domaining and the new gTLD program, to ICANN's warped definition of "consumer". IMO this assumption needs to be exposed, confronted, and beaten down with a stick.)
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Karl: So you're not so happy that in the RT's construct, standing to contest is not granted to other than those groups or classes now enumerated. I should think the RT's major concern is vested in the term 'enforceable'. Maybe what we need to do is contest a broader/fuller meaning of the term 'enforceable' and petition for unnamned classes to be added and given standing, no? Best, - Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Karl Auerbach <karl@cavebear.com> wrote:
On 05/14/2012 12:59 PM, Carlton Samuels wrote:
Note the recommendation:
The RT is in favour of " *a clear, unambiguous and enforceable chain of **contractual agreements with registries, registrars, and registrants to require the **provision and maintenance of accurate WHOIS data*.".
That is a far cry from a third-party-beneficiary rule.
The sentence you quote essentially says "The RT is in favour of the status quo".
What Bill S. was asking for was a third party beneficiary provision that gives designated third party individuals or classes (who might not even be registrants, registrars, or registries - or anybody else associated with ICANN) the power to enforce the contractual terms even if one of the actual parties to the contract doesn't come forward to enforce it itself.
In general I think that ICANN has done a lousy job in that it has very expressly rejected third party beneficiary rights in anything it does ever since it was formed. We saw that happen most forcefully in the RegisterFly situation where ICANN failed to enforce contract terms while registrants were being harmed left and right.
(I do, however, believe that the whois is a privacy disaster, that the report contains a revisionist history to support its conclusions, that there are plenty of means to go after evil doers even if those means might be less convenient than a rope and a nearby tree, and that there is a lot of post hoc ergo hoc logic going in that those who are accused are stripped of protections merely because they have been accused.)
--karl--
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On 05/14/2012 05:38 PM, Carlton Samuels wrote:
Karl: So you're not so happy that in the RT's construct, standing to contest is not granted to other than those groups or classes now enumerated.
I should think the RT's major concern is vested in the term 'enforceable'. Maybe what we need to do is contest a broader/fuller meaning of the term 'enforceable' and petition for unnamned classes to be added and given standing, no?
Yes. The reason that I find third party beneficiary terms in ICANN's contracts to be something to be much needed is that the actual parties to ICANN's contracts often do not act to enforce those terms thus leaving third parties dangling and without recourse. It really is not hard to put a provision into all ICANN contracts that says, in essence, "This contract is intended to benefit all members of the community of internet users and as such it is fully intended that any individual person who is a member of that community has the third party beneficial right to enforce any or all provisions of this contract." (I'm sure that a bit more felicitous language could be brewed up.) Third party beneficiary rights are real contract rights that can be enforced in a court of law by people who aren't parties to the contract itself. The third party beneficiary beneficiary doctrine probably varies from place to place; and it may (and often does) require that it be expressly granted by the contract to some defined group (in our case that group might be everybody - which could be too broad.) But it does seem to me that we who use the domain name system ought to be able to have knobs and levers that we can twist and pull to require that those who have contracts under ICANN actually abide by the terms of those contracts even if ICANN or the other parties sleep on their contract rights. ICANN, however, has a strong dislike of third party beneficiary rights - that comes from their overprotective law firm, Jones Day - but it is something that they could do if the spirit moved 'em - but it needs to be done *while* the contracts are written as it can't automatically be added later. --karl--
participants (12)
-
Antony Van Couvering -
Antony Van Couvering -
Avri Doria -
Bill Silverstein -
Carlton Samuels -
Christopher Wilkinson -
Derek Smythe -
Evan Leibovitch -
Franck Martin -
John R. Levine -
Karl Auerbach -
Rudi Vansnick