Then why are we still entertaining him on a working mailing list? I know about freedom of speech, etc.. But ALAC is supposed to be a working group not a zoo. On 28/02/2008, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:

...

I have never seen so many errors in an e-mail. I really doubt your capacity to comment on ICANN matters when obviously you have no clue on who is who.

Suggestion: please don't feed the trolls. Jeff Williams has a long history of visiting mailing lists and posting numerous messages and generating heat and noise (but little light). He's also been kicked off (or shunned off) mailing lists because of his antics.

Before responding, think hard as to whether responding to one of his posts would be worth either your (or the lists) time.

For example, folk may find it interesting to google for "jeff williams faq" and see what hits you get.

The first one I got was:

http://www.dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc03/msg01091.html

Thomas

_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org

http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann.org

At-Large Official Site: http://www.alac.icann.org ALAC Independent: http://www.icannalac.org

-- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Franck Martin franck.martin@gmail.com http://www.peachymango.org/ "Toute connaissance est une réponse à une question" G. Bachelard

Cheryl and all my friends, Are you trying to imply something? Where are these posting limits to which you seemingly criptically refrence in regards to some meeting which all participants were not made aware of, on the @large web site? I am sory that Thomas N. is in fact mistating facts. If he, or anyone has a problem with me, as always, I await his/her service. Otherwise clap-trap and/or significant desparagment on a personal level only shows their own shortcomings accordingly. Disagreement regarding issues should be expected and welcome so as to reasonably arrive at some measured consensus that can be utilized or offered as a potential policy and subsequent real action(s) that benifit all users. Cheryl Langdon-Orr wrote:

List moderation and posting limitations were discussed at last night’s (my time) ALAC ExCo Meeting... and based upon requests from the community we have asked Staff to brief the ALAC at its next meeting (March 11th) on our list options... If the information is supplied earlier we will review the options and discuss with ALAC Lists earlier...

CLO

From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Franck Martin

Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 11:29 AM To: Thomas Narten Cc: At-Large Worldwide Subject: Re: [At-Large] Jeff Williams

Then why are we still entertaining him on a working mailing list? I know about freedom of speech, etc.. But ALAC is supposed to be a working group not a zoo. On 28/02/2008, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:

...

I have never seen so many errors in an e-mail. I really doubt your capacity to comment on ICANN matters when obviously you have no clue on who is who.

Suggestion: please don't feed the trolls. Jeff Williams has a long history of visiting mailing lists and posting numerous messages and generating heat and noise (but little light). He's also been kicked off (or shunned off) mailing lists because of his antics.

Before responding, think hard as to whether responding to one of his posts would be worth either your (or the lists) time.

For example, folk may find it interesting to google for "jeff williams

faq" and see what hits you get.

The first one I got was:

http://www..dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc03/msg01091.html

Thomas

_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org

ttp://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann.org

At-Large Official Site: http://www.alac.icann.org ALAC Independent: http://www.icannalac.org

-- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Franck Martin franck.martin@gmail.com http://www.peachymango.org/ "Toute connaissance est une réponse à une question" G. Bachelard

---------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann.org

At-Large Official Site: http://www.alac.icann.org ALAC Independent: http://www.icannalac.org

Regards, Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 277k members/stakeholders strong!) "Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" - Abraham Lincoln "Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt "If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by P: i.e., whether B is less than PL." United States v. Carroll Towing (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947] =============================================================== Updated 1/26/04 CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of Information Network Eng. INEG. INC. ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com My Phone: 214-244-4827

Cheryl and all my friends, I am truly sorry anyone is fatigued. They should get whatever necessary rest they need to rejuvenate properly and sufficiently. I believe that is what most wise people do accordingly. If one wishes or feels a need to address list fatigue, as you indicate/state in your remarks below, than changing ones list options see:http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann.org is one of *several means* by which to address same. Another is to deploy a filter for their Email client which has already been stated by myself and Evan earlier, although in doing so they are by their own choice, practicing censorship, which is not healthy and as such significantly disadvantageous at a minimum. The ALAC list is a public forum or is supposed to be, as such YOU nor any of the forum participants OWN the ALAC mailing list forums accordingly, ergo as a ALAC member and participant myself, I wish to have my and our groups views heard, as spokesman, it IS my responsibility to ensure such is done to the best of my ability. I, as do ALL of our members desire to hear ANYONE else's views unfettered or unrestricted as well. However none of your remarks below have anything what so ever to do with public discourse, openness and transparency in any positive and legitimate manner and restriction of discourse as such is a violation of the MOU as well and more importantly, a violation of the US 1st amendment, our (Americans) most sacred and broadly protected rights. I would NEVER censor in any fashion anything YOU have to say Cheryl, and I and our members, of which quite a few reside in your home country, hope you will extend the same courtesy to myself and our members accordingly. Cheryl Langdon-Orr wrote:

No we are avoiding list fatigue and responding to specific requests to look at the recent plethora of posts and cross posts from other lists to our public list...

CLO

-----Original Message----- From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey A. Williams Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 4:13 PM To: 'At-Large Worldwide' Subject: Re: [At-Large] Jeff Williams

Cheryl and all my friends,

Are you trying to imply something? Where are these posting limits to which you seemingly criptically refrence in regards to some meeting which all participants were not made aware of, on the @large web site?

I am sory that Thomas N. is in fact mistating facts. If he, or anyone has a problem with me, as always, I await his/her service. Otherwise clap-trap and/or significant desparagment on a personal level only shows their own shortcomings accordingly.

Disagreement regarding issues should be expected and welcome so as to reasonably arrive at some measured consensus that can be utilized or offered as a potential policy and subsequent real action(s) that benifit all users.

Cheryl Langdon-Orr wrote:

...

List moderation and posting limitations were discussed at last night’s (my time) ALAC ExCo Meeting... and based upon requests from the community we have asked Staff to brief the ALAC at its next meeting (March 11th) on our list options... If the information is supplied earlier we will review the options and discuss with ALAC Lists earlier...

CLO

From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Franck Martin

Sent: Thursday, 28 February 2008 11:29 AM To: Thomas Narten Cc: At-Large Worldwide Subject: Re: [At-Large] Jeff Williams

Then why are we still entertaining him on a working mailing list? I know about freedom of speech, etc.. But ALAC is supposed to be a working group not a zoo. On 28/02/2008, Thomas Narten <narten@us.ibm.com> wrote:

...

I have never seen so many errors in an e-mail. I really doubt your capacity to comment on ICANN matters when obviously you have no clue on who is who.

Suggestion: please don't feed the trolls. Jeff Williams has a long history of visiting mailing lists and posting numerous messages and generating heat and noise (but little light). He's also been kicked off (or shunned off) mailing lists because of his antics.

Before responding, think hard as to whether responding to one of his posts would be worth either your (or the lists) time.

For example, folk may find it interesting to google for "jeff williams

faq" and see what hits you get.

The first one I got was:

http://www..dnso.org/clubpublic/ga/Arc03/msg01091.html

Thomas

_______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org

ttp://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann.org

...

At-Large Official Site: http://www.alac.icann.org ALAC Independent: http://www.icannalac.org

-- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Franck Martin franck.martin@gmail.com http://www.peachymango.org/ "Toute connaissance est une réponse à une question" G. Bachelard

---------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org

http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann.org

...

At-Large Official Site: http://www.alac.icann.org ALAC Independent: http://www.icannalac.org

Thank you for your courtesy, consideration and cooperation in advance, Regards, Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 277k members/stakeholders strong!) "Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" - Abraham Lincoln "Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt "If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by P: i.e., whether B is less than PL." United States v. Carroll Towing (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947] =============================================================== Updated 1/26/04 CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of Information Network Eng. INEG. INC. ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com My Phone: 214-244-4827

I don't agree that individual users should set up their filters to ignore fakes. If you are a newbie and come on this list and see all these postings which are rants and mis-information, well, you run away and don't come back. Many cultures do not like controversial tones, so if the ALAC wants to be progressing, some people should go by common agreement. I think ALAC has spent too much energy, and has not been able to deliver because of these disturbances. So if there is a process to review membership to this list, let me know, I have a name to put up for removal. ;) On 28/02/2008, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:

Two things to consider:

1) Freedom of speech does not bring with it an obligation to listen.

2) Email filters are easy to set up, and don't require any centrally-imposed action.

I don't know Outlook, but I'll gladly offer help to anyone trying to use filters in Thunderbird.

- Evan

-- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Franck Martin franck.martin@gmail.com http://www.peachymango.org/ "Toute connaissance est une réponse à une question" G. Bachelard

Roberto and all my friends, I totally agree with your assesment that determining what the purpose of the ALAC lists are is important. However I would think that as the ALAC is supposed to be for USER access and participation in ICANN which has been and still remains largly non-existant, and user issues as part of the ICANN mission and areas of responsibility that pertain to users. As a user myself, that covers allot of ground and many, many issues as well as some new issues that may, and will surely come along. Ergo, the participants should determine what is and what is not an ALAC issue that ICANN should be aware of, or is directly/indirectly related to ICANN mission. And frankly Frank, I personally block GMAIL entirely, but not this list forums Email address. GMAIL has proven to be less than reliable, violates individuals/users privacy, and is populated with scammers and spammers as well as a target for same as multipul reports from a significant variaty of sources have reported frequently. I also am very interested in anything Roberto has to say however irrelevant, disagreeable, intently hurtful, disgruntled, enlighteneing, useful, informative, or otherwise his remarks, comments, ect., may be. Same is true for your Frank, only a different Email provider will be necessary for me to recieve such from you directly or Google changes it's policies and practices, unless you post same to this list forum. I can only suppose that Google will change it's policies and practices when and if it recognizes that its estimated loss in revinue from our members is in the neiborhood of $380M/yr. at last estimate done by our accountants. I personally look forward to that day when they do. But I am not holding my breath waiting! Roberto Gaetano wrote:

Franck Martin wrote:

From now on you are in my troll category.

Better late than never!

On a more serious tone, I am in favour of adopting industry standards of good practices, rather than to reinvent the wheel. We have accumulated wide experience in mailing list management with inappropriate cross-posting, excessive postings, irrelevant (or off-topic) subjects, and so on. The conclusion is always the same: either the list is meant to be the soap box in Hyde Park, and will best suited by a certain set of rules (or lack thereof), or is meant to be a working environment, and will consequently adopt a different set of working procedures.

So the first step is for the ALAC to decide what is the purpose of this mailing list, and then simply adopt the set of rules that will allow the purpose to be achieved.

Cheers, Roberto

------------------------------------------------------------------------ Name: winmail.dat winmail.dat Type: application/ms-tnef Encoding: base64

Regards, Spokesman for INEGroup LLA. - (Over 277k members/stakeholders strong!) "Obedience of the law is the greatest freedom" - Abraham Lincoln "Credit should go with the performance of duty and not with what is very often the accident of glory" - Theodore Roosevelt "If the probability be called P; the injury, L; and the burden, B; liability depends upon whether B is less than L multiplied by P: i.e., whether B is less than PL." United States v. Carroll Towing (159 F.2d 169 [2d Cir. 1947] =============================================================== Updated 1/26/04 CSO/DIR. Internet Network Eng. SR. Eng. Network data security IDNS. div. of Information Network Eng. INEG. INC. ABA member in good standing member ID 01257402 E-Mail jwkckid1@ix.netcom.com My Phone: 214-244-4827