France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing
Dear All, You would have read in the New York Times about France proposing Internet Tax - I have blogged about this here: http://www.circleid.com/posts/20130121_france_proposes_internet_tax_an_old_w... Kind Regards, -- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Tel: +679 3544828 Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
Sala, Although I agree with you that this French proposal can reopen the "old war" of internet taxation, it should be pointed out that the proposed tax is not on commercial transactions, i.e. it is not a trade tax, but a "fee" for collecting personal information. So, besides the financial implication there are other subjects that this proposal raises. Maybe that warrants also a discussion. Cheers, R. -----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro Inviato: lunedì 21 gennaio 2013 21:23 A: At-Large Worldwide; apralo Oggetto: [At-Large] France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing Dear All, You would have read in the New York Times about France proposing Internet Tax - I have blogged about this here: http://www.circleid.com/posts/20130121_france_proposes_internet_tax_an_old_w ar_resurfacing/ Kind Regards, -- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Tel: +679 3544828 Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
The same is being done in Pakistan and frankly speaking, I don't mind. Its a free market economy but one has to realize that these companies are coming from outside our country and should conform to certain regulatory environments in the markets that they operate in. It may be a challenge to freedom of expression but corporations do not necessarily represent the freedoms of individual internet users. best Fouad On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 10:54 PM, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Sala, Although I agree with you that this French proposal can reopen the "old war" of internet taxation, it should be pointed out that the proposed tax is not on commercial transactions, i.e. it is not a trade tax, but a "fee" for collecting personal information. So, besides the financial implication there are other subjects that this proposal raises. Maybe that warrants also a discussion. Cheers, R.
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro Inviato: lunedì 21 gennaio 2013 21:23 A: At-Large Worldwide; apralo Oggetto: [At-Large] France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing
Dear All,
You would have read in the New York Times about France proposing Internet Tax - I have blogged about this here:
http://www.circleid.com/posts/20130121_france_proposes_internet_tax_an_old_w ar_resurfacing/
Kind Regards,
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Tel: +679 3544828 Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa ICT4D and Internet Governance Advisor My Blog: Internet's Governance: http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/ Follow my Tweets: http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
Nice in theory, and indeed your country's choice. But it doesn't exactly help your global competitiveness if yours is the only country on Earth that charges users for casual Gmail/Gchat/Gmaps use. Of course, global competitiveness may not be a national goal. But, frankly, from this distance the effort looks like a case of calling attention to foreigners to divert attention from much<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21102391> bigger <http://www.economist.com/blogs/banyan/2013/01/india-and-pakistan> domestic <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21053432> problems<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-21033968>, and a nuclear-armed next-door neighbour whose 24-hour news channels scream headlines such as "more Pak barbarism" (saw that myself). IOW, going after Google appears the least of your national policy issues. Heck my country does this kind of politically-motivated diversion all the time, though in Canada at this time the stake appear somewhat ... lower.
It may be a challenge to freedom of expression but corporations do not necessarily represent the freedoms of individual internet users.
Not necessarily. But maybe in this case it is. Just MHO. - Evan On 22 January 2013 13:43, Fouad Bajwa <fouadbajwa@gmail.com> wrote:
The same is being done in Pakistan and frankly speaking, I don't mind. Its a free market economy but one has to realize that these companies are coming from outside our country and should conform to certain regulatory environments in the markets that they operate in. It may be a challenge to freedom of expression but corporations do not necessarily represent the freedoms of individual internet users.
best
Fouad
On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 10:54 PM, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Sala, Although I agree with you that this French proposal can reopen the "old war" of internet taxation, it should be pointed out that the proposed tax is not on commercial transactions, i.e. it is not a trade tax, but a "fee" for collecting personal information. So, besides the financial implication there are other subjects that this proposal raises. Maybe that warrants also a discussion. Cheers, R.
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro Inviato: lunedì 21 gennaio 2013 21:23 A: At-Large Worldwide; apralo Oggetto: [At-Large] France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing
Dear All,
You would have read in the New York Times about France proposing Internet Tax - I have blogged about this here:
http://www.circleid.com/posts/20130121_france_proposes_internet_tax_an_old_w
ar_resurfacing/
Kind Regards,
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Tel: +679 3544828 Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
_______________________________________________ APAC-Discuss mailing list APAC-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/apac-discuss
Homepage for the region: http://www.apralo.org
-- Regards. -------------------------- Fouad Bajwa ICT4D and Internet Governance Advisor My Blog: Internet's Governance: http://internetsgovernance.blogspot.com/ Follow my Tweets: http://twitter.com/fouadbajwa
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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-- Evan Leibovitch Toronto Canada Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 5:54 AM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Sala, Although I agree with you that this French proposal can reopen the "old war" of internet taxation, it should be pointed out that the proposed tax is not on commercial transactions, i.e. it is not a trade tax, but a "fee" for collecting personal information.
I agree. What I meant to say was the idea of taxation of the internet is not new and merely pointed to the history, what is interesting is how this is evolving. It is also interesting that not too long ago the French Government also came out strong against the ISPs reminding them that they have no right to edit web content as far as online advertisements are going and with the report we can now see why. From a revenue authority viewpoint, a commercial transaction is any transaction where "benefit" is derived. In light of this development, it's interesting particularly when we see the evolution of revenue production shift more towards content.
So, besides the financial implication there are other subjects that this proposal raises. Maybe that warrants also a discussion.
There's an interesting paper by Huston on Carriage vrs Content
Cheers, R.
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro Inviato: lunedì 21 gennaio 2013 21:23 A: At-Large Worldwide; apralo Oggetto: [At-Large] France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing
Dear All,
You would have read in the New York Times about France proposing Internet Tax - I have blogged about this here:
http://www.circleid.com/posts/20130121_france_proposes_internet_tax_an_old_w ar_resurfacing/
Kind Regards,
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Tel: +679 3544828 Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Tel: +679 3544828 Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
On 22 January 2013 12:54, Roberto Gaetano <roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com>wrote:
Although I agree with you that this French proposal can reopen the "old war" of internet taxation, it should be pointed out that the proposed tax is not on commercial transactions, i.e. it is not a trade tax, but a "fee" for collecting personal information.
Given Google's particular business model, this DOES amount to a trade tax. - Evan
Robert, indeed deserves debate, but I also agree with SALA, that whatever the proposal contains, the taxation word really raises the old war. Unhappily we are seeing more and more an insatiable appetite for money!!!! -----Mensagem original----- De: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Em nome de Roberto Gaetano Enviada em: terça-feira, 22 de janeiro de 2013 15:55 Para: 'At-Large Worldwide'; 'apralo' Assunto: [At-Large] R: France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing Sala, Although I agree with you that this French proposal can reopen the "old war" of internet taxation, it should be pointed out that the proposed tax is not on commercial transactions, i.e. it is not a trade tax, but a "fee" for collecting personal information. So, besides the financial implication there are other subjects that this proposal raises. Maybe that warrants also a discussion. Cheers, R. -----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro Inviato: lunedì 21 gennaio 2013 21:23 A: At-Large Worldwide; apralo Oggetto: [At-Large] France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing Dear All, You would have read in the New York Times about France proposing Internet Tax - I have blogged about this here: http://www.circleid.com/posts/20130121_france_proposes_internet_tax_an_old_w ar_resurfacing/ Kind Regards, -- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Tel: +679 3544828 Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
I am not saying I disagree with Sala, nor that I approve the move from the French government. I am only saying that the issue has other aspects that we need to consider and it is not "just" the re-edition of the tax war. I take the chance to respond also to Evan, who wrote:
Given Google's particular business model, this DOES amount to a trade tax.
What makes it a tax is Google's "particular" business model. What does not allow us to speak generally about a tax, is exactly the word "particular" in the statement. So, I think that the question is much wider, and we cannot reduce it to slogans like taxation yes or no, it has to do with the balance of cost and benefits among different stakeholders. Something that is also on the ITU's plate. Which means that we better have our principles well debated inside and a clear position stated, in case we need to defend it in other fora. Cheers, Roberto -----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Vanda UOL Inviato: martedì 22 gennaio 2013 21:38 A: 'At-Large Worldwide'; 'apralo' Oggetto: [At-Large] RES: R: France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing Robert, indeed deserves debate, but I also agree with SALA, that whatever the proposal contains, the taxation word really raises the old war. Unhappily we are seeing more and more an insatiable appetite for money!!!! -----Mensagem original----- De: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Em nome de Roberto Gaetano Enviada em: terça-feira, 22 de janeiro de 2013 15:55 Para: 'At-Large Worldwide'; 'apralo' Assunto: [At-Large] R: France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing Sala, Although I agree with you that this French proposal can reopen the "old war" of internet taxation, it should be pointed out that the proposed tax is not on commercial transactions, i.e. it is not a trade tax, but a "fee" for collecting personal information. So, besides the financial implication there are other subjects that this proposal raises. Maybe that warrants also a discussion. Cheers, R. -----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro Inviato: lunedì 21 gennaio 2013 21:23 A: At-Large Worldwide; apralo Oggetto: [At-Large] France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing Dear All, You would have read in the New York Times about France proposing Internet Tax - I have blogged about this here: http://www.circleid.com/posts/20130121_france_proposes_internet_tax_an_old_w ar_resurfacing/ Kind Regards, -- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Tel: +679 3544828 Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
On Wed, Jan 23, 2013 at 9:29 AM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
I am not saying I disagree with Sala, nor that I approve the move from the French government. I am only saying that the issue has other aspects that we need to consider and it is not "just" the re-edition of the tax war.
Yes, there are other aspects that need to be considered.
I take the chance to respond also to Evan, who wrote:
Given Google's particular business model, this DOES amount to a trade tax.
What makes it a tax is Google's "particular" business model. What does not allow us to speak generally about a tax, is exactly the word "particular" in the statement.
Transfer pricing was mentioned in the French Proposal and I assume that on products/services that VAT would be apply.
On a similar note, there is an interesting article published on July 2012 called Carriage vs Content by Geoff Huston, see: http://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2012-07/carriagevcontent.html
So, I think that the question is much wider, and we cannot reduce it to slogans like taxation yes or no, it has to do with the balance of cost and benefits among different stakeholders. Something that is also on the ITU's plate. Which means that we better have our principles well debated inside and a clear position stated, in case we need to defend it in other fora.
Cheers, Roberto
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Vanda UOL Inviato: martedì 22 gennaio 2013 21:38 A: 'At-Large Worldwide'; 'apralo' Oggetto: [At-Large] RES: R: France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing
Robert, indeed deserves debate, but I also agree with SALA, that whatever the proposal contains, the taxation word really raises the old war. Unhappily we are seeing more and more an insatiable appetite for money!!!!
-----Mensagem original----- De: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Em nome de Roberto Gaetano Enviada em: terça-feira, 22 de janeiro de 2013 15:55 Para: 'At-Large Worldwide'; 'apralo' Assunto: [At-Large] R: France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing
Sala, Although I agree with you that this French proposal can reopen the "old war" of internet taxation, it should be pointed out that the proposed tax is not on commercial transactions, i.e. it is not a trade tax, but a "fee" for collecting personal information. So, besides the financial implication there are other subjects that this proposal raises. Maybe that warrants also a discussion. Cheers, R.
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:at-large-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro Inviato: lunedì 21 gennaio 2013 21:23 A: At-Large Worldwide; apralo Oggetto: [At-Large] France Proposes Internet Tax - Old War Resurfacing
Dear All,
You would have read in the New York Times about France proposing Internet Tax - I have blogged about this here:
http://www.circleid.com/posts/20130121_france_proposes_internet_tax_an_old_w ar_resurfacing/
Kind Regards,
-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji
Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Tel: +679 3544828 Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851 _______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org
_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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_______________________________________________ At-Large mailing list At-Large@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/at-large
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-- Salanieta Tamanikaiwaimaro aka Sala P.O. Box 17862 Suva Fiji Twitter: @SalanietaT Skype:Salanieta.Tamanikaiwaimaro Tel: +679 3544828 Fiji Cell: +679 998 2851
On a similar note, there is an interesting article published on July 2012 called Carriage vs Content by Geoff Huston, see: <http://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2012-07/carriagevcontent.html> http://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2012-07/carriagevcontent.html Thanks, Sala, I have read the article and liked it very much. If I remember correctly we even discussed in the ALAC list about the ETNO proposal. R.
Yup. -Carlton ============================== Carlton A Samuels Mobile: 876-818-1799 *Strategy, Planning, Governance, Assessment & Turnaround* ============================= On Tue, Jan 22, 2013 at 6:32 PM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
On a similar note, there is an interesting article published on July 2012 called Carriage vs Content by Geoff Huston, see: <http://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2012-07/carriagevcontent.html> http://www.potaroo.net/ispcol/2012-07/carriagevcontent.html
Thanks, Sala, I have read the article and liked it very much.
If I remember correctly we even discussed in the ALAC list about the ETNO proposal.
R.
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participants (6)
-
Carlton Samuels -
Evan Leibovitch -
Fouad Bajwa -
Roberto Gaetano -
Salanieta T. Tamanikaiwaimaro -
Vanda UOL