The Agenda is / will be found here https://st.icann.org/alac/index.cgi?13_may_2008 as Matthias mentioned in his email Discussion items will be uploaded shortly... CLO -----Original Message----- From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Dominik Filipp Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:49 PM To: Matthias Langenegger; alac-internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC Is there a list of issues to be discussed during the teleconference available? Dominik -----Original Message----- From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Matthias Langenegger Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:06 AM To: alac-internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC Dear all, This is to remind you about the upcoming monthly ALAC teleconference taking place on Tuesday, 13 May at 1330 UTC. Please find additional information such as participation instructions on the link below. https://st.icann.org/alac/index.cgi?13_may_2008 A draft meeting agenda will be uploaded shortly. There will be Spanish and French interpretation for this call. If you would like to be on the French or the Spanish channel or if you would like to be on the English channel and need to be dialed out to, please make sure your name is on the dial-out list on the meeting page. Best Regards, -- Matthias Langenegger At-Large Coordination Officer Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) Email: matthias.langenegger@icann.org Main Tel: +41 (79) 644 65 35 Fax: +41 (22) 594 85 44 Skype ID: matthiaslangenegger _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann .org At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann.org At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org

Ah sorry, I missed the note about the Discussion items being in preparation. Please send them to us when available. Thanks Dominik -----Original Message----- From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Dominik Filipp Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:56 AM To: cheryl@hovtek.com.au; Matthias Langenegger; alac-internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC I cannot find Domain Tasting there. Where is it? Dominik -----Original Message----- From: Cheryl Langdon-Orr [mailto:cheryl@hovtek.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:41 AM To: Dominik Filipp; 'Matthias Langenegger'; alac-internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: RE: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC The Agenda is / will be found here https://st.icann.org/alac/index.cgi?13_may_2008 as Matthias mentioned in his email Discussion items will be uploaded shortly... CLO -----Original Message----- From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Dominik Filipp Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:49 PM To: Matthias Langenegger; alac-internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC Is there a list of issues to be discussed during the teleconference available? Dominik -----Original Message----- From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Matthias Langenegger Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:06 AM To: alac-internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC Dear all, This is to remind you about the upcoming monthly ALAC teleconference taking place on Tuesday, 13 May at 1330 UTC. Please find additional information such as participation instructions on the link below. https://st.icann.org/alac/index.cgi?13_may_2008 A draft meeting agenda will be uploaded shortly. There will be Spanish and French interpretation for this call. If you would like to be on the French or the Spanish channel or if you would like to be on the English channel and need to be dialed out to, please make sure your name is on the dial-out list on the meeting page. Best Regards, -- Matthias Langenegger At-Large Coordination Officer Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) Email: matthias.langenegger@icann.org Main Tel: +41 (79) 644 65 35 Fax: +41 (22) 594 85 44 Skype ID: matthiaslangenegger _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann .org At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann .org At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann .org At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org

I would recommend that the participants of the teleconference 13 May raise a demand to reconsider the current ALAC statement on domain tasting in favour of the previously supported stronger position based on the AGP elimination, as it much better addresses the concerns of the public community. Dominik -----Original Message----- From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Cheryl Langdon-Orr Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:48 AM To: alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC Please Note that the meeting page has now been updated to include several items for Discussion / Decision ... And that the agenda is still subject to changes / additions proposed by ALAC Members CLO -----Original Message----- From: Dominik Filipp [mailto:dominik.filipp@dsoft.sk] Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 7:06 PM To: cheryl@hovtek.com.au; Matthias Langenegger; alac-internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: RE: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC Ah sorry, I missed the note about the Discussion items being in preparation. Please send them to us when available. Thanks Dominik -----Original Message----- From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Dominik Filipp Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:56 AM To: cheryl@hovtek.com.au; Matthias Langenegger; alac-internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC I cannot find Domain Tasting there. Where is it? Dominik -----Original Message----- From: Cheryl Langdon-Orr [mailto:cheryl@hovtek.com.au] Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:41 AM To: Dominik Filipp; 'Matthias Langenegger'; alac-internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: RE: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC The Agenda is / will be found here https://st.icann.org/alac/index.cgi?13_may_2008 as Matthias mentioned in his email Discussion items will be uploaded shortly... CLO -----Original Message----- From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Dominik Filipp Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:49 PM To: Matthias Langenegger; alac-internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC Is there a list of issues to be discussed during the teleconference available? Dominik -----Original Message----- From: alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Matthias Langenegger Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:06 AM To: alac-internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC Dear all, This is to remind you about the upcoming monthly ALAC teleconference taking place on Tuesday, 13 May at 1330 UTC. Please find additional information such as participation instructions on the link below. https://st.icann.org/alac/index.cgi?13_may_2008 A draft meeting agenda will be uploaded shortly. There will be Spanish and French interpretation for this call. If you would like to be on the French or the Spanish channel or if you would like to be on the English channel and need to be dialed out to, please make sure your name is on the dial-out list on the meeting page. Best Regards, -- Matthias Langenegger At-Large Coordination Officer Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) Email: matthias.langenegger@icann.org Main Tel: +41 (79) 644 65 35 Fax: +41 (22) 594 85 44 Skype ID: matthiaslangenegger _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann .org At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann .org At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann .org At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann .org At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org

Hello Evan, Please read my comments interspersed below -----Original Message----- From: Evan Leibovitch [mailto:evan@telly.org] Sent: Friday, May 09, 2008 2:37 PM To: Dominik Filipp Cc: alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC

Hello Dominik,

The way it was put to us -- those of us who strongly advanced abolishing the AGP -- was essentially this:

"Our primary goal is getting rid of tasting, which will likely happen by widely mandating the partial measures already initiated by two registries. Total AGP elimination will be strenuously opposed by the financial interests, so there's no way that will happen. Why back a position that has no chance of succeeding? We should be seen as going along with a broadly-supported measure that directly addresses tasting and has a chance to be implemented."

The ALAC is committed to the public to express, reflect and advocate the best solutions for the public it recognizes and considers as being such. The ALAC is primarily not obligated to respect any financial interests but only the bylaws, the ICANN core values and the original mission goals the ALAC was established on. Accepting the financial logic would mean that the ALAC would definitely give in to unfair and fraudulent practices and as such would be rightly accused of suspect collaboration based on pursuing non-public interests. In case of domain tasting the situation is clear. For the public the AGP elimination is by far the best solution. The ALAC should hold it and pronounce it explicitly and loudly. This is the only honest solution towards the community the ALAC advocates and should always advocate. Keep in mind that so far there has not been any single common constituency/wider-public discussion organized addressing the AGP elimination properly whatsoever. Upon what then the ALAC should have to consider a possible compromise when none argument-base has ever been collected and considered? Upon financial and political bargaining? Is this the way the ALAC wants to follow? If so then we all should quickly forget all the pro-public mission goals and honestly admit: Yes, the ALAC is definitely part of the sham and we all are fraudsters misusing public money just helping pretend the service to the public. Even worse, the far biggest guilt would lay on ALAC's shoulders because it is the only body, neither registrars nor registries nor any other constituency, that is primarily responsible for defending wide public interests. There is no any third way to follow; either we are part of the sham or we act as a self-confident independent body with full sense of the accountability delegated. I believe the latter choice is the case. There is nothing difficult here. The ALAC will express the statement it stands for and the board will vote. It is that simple. And if this motion will eventually be refused and domain tasting will again be reinstated then it will be clear whose responsibility it is. This is extremely important to know for the record and for history that the ALAC acted accountably and warned the board about possible persisting abuse. I do not see any single reason why the ALAC should help carry that burden on its shoulders for a decision it has never stood for. Take hands away from it.

My analysis of this is twofold:

- ALAC does not yet have the maturity nor the confidence to advance a position that it perceives to be extremely unpopular with other constituencies, even if that position accurately reflects the public sentiment.

Then, indeed, it is the right time for the ALAC to get matured. Once it happens the other constituencies will start taking the ALAC seriously. As it really deserves.

- It's always easier to attack the symptom than the cause, even though leaving the cause intact will likely lead to future problems. Tasting is the symptom, AGP is the cause. While the currently proposed partial measures will indeed reduce much tasting, leaving the AGP untouched appears to be a clear invitation to bad agents to invent new forms of abuse.

Exactly right.

I have personally come to the conclusion that ALAC, in its current form, will do whatever it can to avoid confrontation with other constituencies.

This, however, is sort of childish behavior resembling a child compulsively addicted to their parents or elder siblings. No wonder such a child is not taken seriously.

Some of this sentiment is understandable, given the limitations imposed on it by the nature of its constitution. After all, even GNSO is only now coming to realize the detrimental effects of having voting members who are unaccountable to anyone. Indeed, one can easily argue that ICANN as a whole is scared of confronting the registries and registrars, given the problems to date in even enforcing existing policy.

You are absolutely right here and I am happy you have recognized this. ICANN as a whole is scared of those who claim themselves as being powerful and influential. They are not only registrars and registries but also the servile officers helping cover their activities. They are spreading out all the fear among people. But open your eyes and look at them without fear, you'll find narrow-minded people addicted to their benefits, or exploiting the ICANN mission on purpose, some not interested in nearly anything just peacefully lost in golden slumbers. But there is also a number of honest people that are trying to do something meaningful themselves being scared by the rest though. Do you still think we should scare of such people? Some of them at high positions do not follow the ICANN mission as an organization representing multi-stakeholder community and should therefore be recognized and treated accordingly. Either they will come around or they will have to go.

Other factors arise from the broad internal diversity of ALAC, within which the desire to achieve consensus will usually lead to compromise positions.

This is a legitimate question/problem and needs to be addressed. In general, making compromise positions is a normal thing, there is nothing wrong with it. Just, we should not mistake compromise for backdown.

As a result, I can accept advancing the current partial answer to tasting with the understanding that this is a transitional action. AGP elimination remains the ultimate goal -- at least within NARALO -- though I am unsure if ALAC in its current form is even capable of advancing that position as forcefully as will be necessary to succeed.

Well, I see a problem here. In my opinion, there is no any transactional action intended in mind. Once the tasting will be approved this way or another it will be kept as is for a very long time. Have a brief look at the current final statement and you'll find how tricky it is formulated. If during the next two years of (dysfunctional) ICANN oversight a public outrage appears again it will be consolidated (put out) by waking up the oversight committee that will try to curb it by (this time functional) oversight to calm the outrage. And this might be going on and on in such waves during the upcoming two years. Indeed, a weak concept.

That, Dominik, is my personal answer regarding why I have not been pushing this issue harder. ALAC has enough other things on its plate. :-)

- Evan

Oh, come on. Have a rest for a while and things will be getting better. There is not that much to do. If we fail in this the plate will soon be full of leftovers :-) Have a nice weekend Dominik

Roberto, For ALAC, it is more and most important to stay accountable to the public community. If an ALAC's own position is not worth discussing and properly argumenting with other bodies on equal basis than, yes, refusing a weak statement and presenting the one ALAC believes is a better/perfect proposal is the only honest solution. Do you call political bargaining a compromise?! Heck! We are not idiots smashed out of the brain here, Roberto! Dominik -----Original Message----- From: Roberto Gaetano [mailto:roberto@icann.org] Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 2:09 PM To: Dominik Filipp; 'Evan Leibovitch' Cc: alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: RE: [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC Dominik,

The ALAC is committed to the public to express, reflect and advocate the best solutions for the public it recognizes and considers as being

such. The ALAC is primarily not obligated to respect any financial interests

but only the bylaws, the ICANN core values and the original mission goals the ALAC was established on. Accepting the financial logic would

mean that the ALAC would definitely give in to unfair and fraudulent practices and as such would be rightly accused of suspect collaboration based on pursuing non-public interests.

What is more important for ALAC, to get some results, even if not the perfect solution, or to yell to the moon what is supposed to be the perfect solution, and obtain nothing?

[...] There is nothing difficult here. The ALAC will express the statement it stands for and the board will vote. It is that simple. And if this motion will eventually be refused and domain tasting will again be reinstated then it will be clear whose responsibility it is. This is extremely important to know for the record and for history that the ALAC acted accountably and warned the board about possible persisting abuse.

Excellent. We will get nothing, but will be able to blame it on somebody else.

I do not see any single reason why the ALAC should help carry that burden on its shoulders for a decision it has never stood for. Take hands away from it.

Yes! Stay pure and uncontaminated by all the durty things of the real world, that ask for the ability of building alliances through compromise. Get all or nothing, don't settle for half of it! Of course, the obvious conclusion will be that consumers will get nothing. But is this, after all, of any importance? Cheers, Roberto

We start as soon as we have quorum *and if* ALAC Members being dialed out to *accept the calls* in the 5-10 mins before start time As we have asked them to, (Members please note you can just mute with *6 and leave the line open to listen for the meeting to start and finish off those few minutes of important other work) *and* if all Dial in participants actually dial in 5 mins before or at least on time *sigh I live in hope* then that should not be an issue Wendy... And we will (I'm sure) adjust the Agenda order to address matters that directly concern you while you are available... CLO -----Original Message----- From: alac-internal-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:alac-internal-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] On Behalf Of Wendy Seltzer Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 7:13 AM To: Matthias Langenegger Cc: alac-internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org; alac@atlarge-lists.icann.org Subject: Re: [ALAC-Internal] [At-Large] Monthly ALAC Teleconference 13 May 1330 UTC I apologize, but I will be able to participate for only the first half hour. I hope we'll have the facilities working well so we can begin on time. I note that my liaison report is at <http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/pipermail/alac_atlarge-lists.icann.org/2008q 2/003779.html>, now linked in the page. Thanks, --Wendy Matthias Langenegger wrote:

Dear all,

This is to remind you about the upcoming monthly ALAC teleconference taking place on Tuesday, 13 May at 1330 UTC. Please find additional information such as participation instructions on the link below.

https://st.icann.org/alac/index.cgi?13_may_2008

A draft meeting agenda will be uploaded shortly. There will be Spanish and French interpretation for this call. If you would like to be on the French or the Spanish channel or if you would like to be on the English channel and need to be dialed out to, please make sure your name is on the dial-out list on the meeting page.

Best Regards, -- Matthias Langenegger At-Large Coordination Officer Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN)

Email: matthias.langenegger@icann.org Main Tel: +41 (79) 644 65 35 Fax: +41 (22) 594 85 44 Skype ID: matthiaslangenegger _______________________________________________ ALAC mailing list ALAC@atlarge-lists.icann.org

http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac_atlarge-lists.icann.org

At-Large Official Site: http://atlarge.icann.org

-- Wendy Seltzer -- wendy@seltzer.org Visiting Professor, Northeastern University School of Law Fellow, Berkman Center for Internet & Society http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/seltzer.html http://www.chillingeffects.org/ https://www.torproject.org/ _______________________________________________ ALAC-Internal mailing list ALAC-Internal@atlarge-lists.icann.org http://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/alac-internal_atlarge-lists. icann.org ALAC Wiki: http://st.icann.org/alac At-Large Website: http://atlarge.icann.org