Carlos, I was not at the GAC-ATRT session in Beijing, but I have now reviewed the transcript. I want to focus first on the issue of GAC input into the GNSO PDP process, and then on Policy vs Implementation. Since we are going to ask for external review of the PDP process with a particular focus on engaging all stakeholders, I think what we want to focus on here (at the chartering stage) is not what is not working (there are plenty of examples, and some of them with opposing needs, for example the GAC finds it hard to address the "very rapid" GNSO policy process and others find that the GNSO policy process takes far to long), but on the desired end point. In my mind, the issue is to find a way that the GNSO can deliver policy that takes into account the needs of the entire community of stakeholders. And that, in my mind, implies accepting input and advice, carefully considering it, and explaining the outcomes when the end-result does not match with the input. There is no question that input that comes in late in the game may still be considered, but optimally, input should be received before decisions are taken and certainly before they are put into operation. If that was easy to do, we would not still be having this discussion. We are now in the situation with new gTLDs that is equivalent to a product being designed, manufactured, shipped, and then recalled. Clearly problems uncovered during the design process will be easier to fix, and that needs to be our target, perhaps not completely achievable. We completely agree that constituents, including governments need to be able to embrace ICANN decisions. That of course does not mean that we can make everyone happy on each decision, but ICANN needs to decide not to satisfy stakeholders with careful and thoughtful deliberation, and with an understanding of the impact of those decisions. On policy vs implementation, my views have shifted over the last few weeks. I think that the entire current policy vs implementation debate is a red herring and a diversion. If multi-stakeholderism has any meaning, there cannot be a sharp line drawn where the multi-stakeholder model (MSM) suddenly ceases to be important. Certainly, at some level "implementation" is really just that, the details and mechanics of moving something from a piece of paper to reality. But that is not how we are using the term today. To the extent that what we currently call implementation (that is, everything after the formal policy development process) is making decision which have substantive impact on what the final product does or how stakeholders are impacted, we need to maintain the MSM. If we take the new gTLD program as an example, for reasons of exhaustion or based on careful thought, many of the PDP recommendations were very general. Moreover, the PDP came out with "principles" which implies that there will be substantive decisions made moving to a real-life implementation. If the PDP Task Force had chosen to specify things in more details, we would have taken that as "policy". Since they didn't, it is implementation. But that does not alter the need for community involvement in the ensuing decisions. Moreover, if we look at the process which took us from the PDP Recommendations accepted by the Board, to the final launch of the program, we find that this WAS a consultative process. The entire community (including the GAC) worked on the many versions of the new gTLD Applicant Guidebook over a 4 year time-frame. So yes, at some point things become implementation when the mechanics are put in place. But what we are currently calling implementation is at a far higher level. Now, there *IS* a difference based on how we do it today. "Policy" is developed by the GNSO essentially as an independent exercise with minimal involvement from non-policy staff (although Fadi has correctly declared that these folks can no longer ignore the process). Once it moves to today's "implementation", if the policy has not been specified in excruciating detail, this too needs to involve the community, perhaps in more of a consultative mode. To decide that there is a stage of "implementation" that is still making substantive decision about how stakeholders will be impacted, but is not being done in a consultative or community-based process, is to disavow the MSM, and that is not something that I think we want to do. Alan At 6/21/2013 11:00 AM, Carlos Raúl Gutierrez wrote:
Dear Alan,
please rewind the recordings of the ATRT2 - GAC meeting in Beijing and pay close attention the comments of the Australian, Italian and UK representatives. Every Governmental complain on this issues is on that record and I don't want to repeat them! Because of the reasons mentioned there, GAC has been, for all practical purposes, EXCLUDED from the Policy Development Process. So the results of respective ATRT1 recommendation (#6) are dismal! Even the late efforts to try to make a semantic separation between "Policy vs. Implementation" have not been fully analyzed in ATRT2 yet.
The way I look at process is rather simple:
1. GAC may or may not give input to the process, because of its many many constraints (too few meetings, too technical approaches of the PDPD, lack of a fully independent secretariat, etc. etc. etc....). We may have to analyze the PDP closely with or without GAC, because 2. GAC advices the board when they have to decide on PDP proposals (and not necessarily earlier) 3. If constituents (Governments included) do not like, and do not embrace Boards decisions, we are in deep trouble [4. if on top, public comments periods on particular technical issues, go about blank without any public comments, it looks even worse]
If your proposal for external expert (which I fully support and gave #1 priority) does not consider those "dynamics" and the "broader picture", including a differentiated approach to each SO/AC role along the public comment windows, then I´m afraid it will remain another navel-gazing exercise and pretty ineffective for the purposes of ATRT2.
Another issues I would like to comment on are the following * I strongly prefer to use the full term "GNSO-PDP", as it has been this denomination the one that GAC has been working with ICANN over the last few meetings at least * I also would like to suggest a clearer title, something like "on the accountability and transparency of the PDP" so everybody knows what to expect from the report. * As far as GAC, and based on Michaels comments, we may have to discuss if this is one of the chapters of the study, or a whole new separate issue for discussion (or both)
In any case please send me the actual draft we are discussing as of today with track changes, so I can see the whole forest again and spend some more time on it this weekend.
Best regards
Carlos Raúl Gutierrez -- <mailto:carlosraulg@gmail.com>carlosraulg@gmail.com Skype carlos.raulg +506 7070 7176
El 21/06/2013, a las 07:59, Alan Greenberg <<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca> escribió:
I certainly will no go on record as saying the GAC is ineffective, but I think that we can come up with wording that will raise the issue of GAC involvement in the PDP process which needs to include be the process for getting information into the PDP, and how the PDP treats such input.
Alan
At 21/06/2013 09:09 AM, Carlos Raul wrote:
if everything you said is true, the absolute absence of GAC advice is enough to ring all the bells Allan!!!! If GAC is innefective, do we need another GAC model? GA without a "C"?
Carlos Raúl Gutiérrez Skype carlos.raulg _________ Apartado 1571-1000 COSTA RICA
On Fri, Jun 21, 2013 at 6:26 AM, Alan Greenberg <<mailto:alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca>alan.greenberg@mcgill.ca > wrote: Lise, As I said in the meeting, if we cite the GAC explicitly, we will also need to add whether that any GAC advice/views were received in a timely manner. I did not call out the GAC explicitly when I drafted this, because I was aware of the answer. On the PDP process that we will be evaluating, I do not believe that we have received any GAC advice or even, had the benefit of general views during the process. There may be some subtle examples of views being known, but I can't be sure. I cannot recal any intervention of the GAC AFTER the PDP was completed and passed to the Board where the GAC objected. Perhaps Avri has a memory of such an occurrence. Note that the new gTLD PDP was before the period we are reviewing, since it was a completely different process, the IGO/INGO PDP is not yet completed, and there has been no completed PDP on Whois during that period either. Alan At 21/06/2013 05:26 AM, Lise Fuhr wrote:
Hi all,
I think that Avri´s version changes the focus too much away from the purpose of Jørgen's text, a purpose that it is my understanding that there were support to at the conference call.
If we only look at GAC's status as defined in ICANN's bylaws the scope is much narrower and we will not review if there are any needs to change the bylaws or other processes but only if ICANN is complying to the existing bylaws in this matter.
So I find we should keep Jørgen's wording.
Best, Lise
-----Oprindelig meddelelse----- Fra: <mailto:atrt2-bounces@icann.org>atrt2-bounces@icann.org [ mailto:atrt2-bounces@icann.org] På vegne af Avri Doria Sendt: 20. juni 2013 20:21 Cc: ATRT2 Emne: Re: [atrt2] PDP Effectiveness Study
Hi,
I would be more comfortable with a more ICANN centric question, like:
- Whether the views of the GAC have been handled appropriately given their status as defined in the ICANN bylaws.
avri
On 20 Jun 2013, at 12:41, Jørgen C Abild Andersen wrote:
Dear colleagues
Proposal for a new bullit between 86 and 87 (a 86A):
- whether in particular the views and advice provided by GAC has been duly taken into account given the specific tasks of national governments with respect to public policy.
Best wishes Jørgen _______________________________________________ atrt2 mailing list <mailto:atrt2@icann.org>atrt2@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/atrt2
_______________________________________________ atrt2 mailing list <mailto:atrt2@icann.org>atrt2@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/atrt2
_______________________________________________ atrt2 mailing list <mailto:atrt2@icann.org>atrt2@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/atrt2
atrt2 mailing list <mailto:atrt2@icann.org>atrt2@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/atrt2
atrt2 mailing list <mailto:atrt2@icann.org>atrt2@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/atrt2