EPDP list of Observers is incomplete
Dear all, At the moment, the list of Observers for the EPDP's mailing list is incomplete. When I have sent messages to the EPDP list, I have received replies from some individuals, seeking to influence me, whose names are not listed on the Observer page as Observers. It is possible that we do not even need to record the names of Observers. Certainly in the case of the pre-IRT, I have suggested that listing their names might be unnecessary - I'm not sure what it really adds. However this is another discussion altogether. If our existing practice in GNSO-chartered working groups is to record the names of Observers, and I believe it is, then I believe this list should be kept complete and up to date. I have asked that the EPDP Observer list be updated and ICANN staff have declined to update the list. The missing names are of ICANN staff members who work in GSE. It apparently would require the support of the GNSO Council to add their names to the page. As these staff are not supporting the EPDP, or at least are not supporting it to my knowledge, but have been reading the emails and seeking to influence EPDP members, then I believe their names should be made public along with the rest of the EPDP Observers, official staff support, members, and alternates. I do not understand why their names would not be published and I think it is inconsistent with the principles of accountability and transparency that ICANN claims to value. When I have pushed back and asked why these names cannot be added, I was told that it is to keep the wiki page short. However it already has over 200 names so it isn't short at the moment. I prefer to prioritise having a complete list, rather than a concise one, as in the case of the wiki, there are really no technical restrictions to adding the missing names to the page. We trust, or at least I trust, that when I visit something on the ICANN website, that it will be complete and accurate. If it isn't, I expect there to be a disclaimer or note explaining what it included, so I can make that decision myself as to its accuracy. The EPDP list of Observers does not state that some people observing the list will not have their names included. If that is the case, there should be a defined policy around who is/is not named, but I see no reason not to include the names of ICANN staff who are observing the mailing list and seeking to influence discussions behind the scenes. I am sending this message to the Council list because I have been advised by ICANN staff that the Observer list will only be updated if it is the expressed wish of either the GNSO Council or of the EPDP chair. I would like to ask the Council to support this request please. Thank you. Ayden Férdeline
Ayden There are a few things here that are confusing me a little and maybe you can clarify them Are you asking that ALL ICANN Staff who are on the mailing list should be listed on wiki page? Are you also accusing ICANN staffers of trying to influence you? Or are you saying there are people on the list who are not ICANN staff and that some of them tried to influence you? Sorry, but I’m just not 100% clear on what you’re saying. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org> on behalf of Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com> Reply-To: Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com> Date: Thursday 4 April 2019 at 11:37 To: GNSO Council List <council@gnso.icann.org> Subject: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete Dear all, At the moment, the list of Observers for the EPDP's mailing list is incomplete. When I have sent messages to the EPDP list, I have received replies from some individuals, seeking to influence me, whose names are not listed on the Observer page as Observers. It is possible that we do not even need to record the names of Observers. Certainly in the case of the pre-IRT, I have suggested that listing their names might be unnecessary - I'm not sure what it really adds. However this is another discussion altogether. If our existing practice in GNSO-chartered working groups is to record the names of Observers, and I believe it is, then I believe this list should be kept complete and up to date. I have asked that the EPDP Observer list be updated and ICANN staff have declined to update the list. The missing names are of ICANN staff members who work in GSE. It apparently would require the support of the GNSO Council to add their names to the page. As these staff are not supporting the EPDP, or at least are not supporting it to my knowledge, but have been reading the emails and seeking to influence EPDP members, then I believe their names should be made public along with the rest of the EPDP Observers, official staff support, members, and alternates. I do not understand why their names would not be published and I think it is inconsistent with the principles of accountability and transparency that ICANN claims to value. When I have pushed back and asked why these names cannot be added, I was told that it is to keep the wiki page short. However it already has over 200 names so it isn't short at the moment. I prefer to prioritise having a complete list, rather than a concise one, as in the case of the wiki, there are really no technical restrictions to adding the missing names to the page. We trust, or at least I trust, that when I visit something on the ICANN website, that it will be complete and accurate. If it isn't, I expect there to be a disclaimer or note explaining what it included, so I can make that decision myself as to its accuracy. The EPDP list of Observers does not state that some people observing the list will not have their names included. If that is the case, there should be a defined policy around who is/is not named, but I see no reason not to include the names of ICANN staff who are observing the mailing list and seeking to influence discussions behind the scenes. I am sending this message to the Council list because I have been advised by ICANN staff that the Observer list will only be updated if it is the expressed wish of either the GNSO Council or of the EPDP chair. I would like to ask the Council to support this request please. Thank you. Ayden Férdeline
Hi Michele, Thanks for your questions. Yes, I believe all ICANN staff members who are subscribed to the mailing list should be named on the wiki page. We can separate them between staff observers and support staff. But if we name community observers, I do not understand why we would not name staff observers, and especially so if they are reading the list in their professional capacity and then attempting to influence discussions with participants. And yes, it was an ICANN staff member (not support staff, but from GSE), who attempted to influence me and sought to use me to advance an objective of the ICANN organisation. I can only speak to my experience here. But when their message reached my inbox I was surprised, as I did not even realise their department was monitoring the EPDP discussions. Ayden ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, April 4, 2019 6:43 PM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> wrote:
Ayden
There are a few things here that are confusing me a little and maybe you can clarify them
Are you asking that ALL ICANN Staff who are on the mailing list should be listed on wiki page?
Are you also accusing ICANN staffers of trying to influence you?
Or are you saying there are people on the list who are not ICANN staff and that some of them tried to influence you?
Sorry, but I’m just not 100% clear on what you’re saying.
Regards
Michele
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting, Colocation & Domains
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845
From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org> on behalf of Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com> Reply-To: Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com> Date: Thursday 4 April 2019 at 11:37 To: GNSO Council List <council@gnso.icann.org> Subject: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete
Dear all,
At the moment, the list of Observers for the EPDP's mailing list is incomplete.
When I have sent messages to the EPDP list, I have received replies from some individuals, seeking to influence me, whose names are not listed on the Observer page as Observers.
It is possible that we do not even need to record the names of Observers. Certainly in the case of the pre-IRT, I have suggested that listing their names might be unnecessary - I'm not sure what it really adds. However this is another discussion altogether.
If our existing practice in GNSO-chartered working groups is to record the names of Observers, and I believe it is, then I believe this list should be kept complete and up to date.
I have asked that the EPDP Observer list be updated and ICANN staff have declined to update the list. The missing names are of ICANN staff members who work in GSE. It apparently would require the support of the GNSO Council to add their names to the page.
As these staff are not supporting the EPDP, or at least are not supporting it to my knowledge, but have been reading the emails and seeking to influence EPDP members, then I believe their names should be made public along with the rest of the EPDP Observers, official staff support, members, and alternates. I do not understand why their names would not be published and I think it is inconsistent with the principles of accountability and transparency that ICANN claims to value.
When I have pushed back and asked why these names cannot be added, I was told that it is to keep the wiki page short. However it already has over 200 names so it isn't short at the moment. I prefer to prioritise having a complete list, rather than a concise one, as in the case of the wiki, there are really no technical restrictions to adding the missing names to the page.
We trust, or at least I trust, that when I visit something on the ICANN website, that it will be complete and accurate. If it isn't, I expect there to be a disclaimer or note explaining what it included, so I can make that decision myself as to its accuracy. The EPDP list of Observers does not state that some people observing the list will not have their names included. If that is the case, there should be a defined policy around who is/is not named, but I see no reason not to include the names of ICANN staff who are observing the mailing list and seeking to influence discussions behind the scenes.
I am sending this message to the Council list because I have been advised by ICANN staff that the Observer list will only be updated if it is the expressed wish of either the GNSO Council or of the EPDP chair. I would like to ask the Council to support this request please.
Thank you.
Ayden Férdeline
Ayden I’ll keep this brief 1 - I don’t think listing staff members who are subscribed to various lists is necessary and I can also see that creating more problems than it solves 2 - as this is a rather serious allegation I’ll leave it to Keith or Marika to address. However I don’t understand why you thought it appropriate to raise on this list without first speaking to the interim chair. As Council we shouldn’t be getting into this sort of issue unless other avenues have been exhausted Regards Michele Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Hosting & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://www.mneylon.social Sent from mobile so typos and brevity are normal On 4 Apr 2019, at 18:20, Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>> wrote: Hi Michele, Thanks for your questions. Yes, I believe all ICANN staff members who are subscribed to the mailing list should be named on the wiki page. We can separate them between staff observers and support staff. But if we name community observers, I do not understand why we would not name staff observers, and especially so if they are reading the list in their professional capacity and then attempting to influence discussions with participants. And yes, it was an ICANN staff member (not support staff, but from GSE), who attempted to influence me and sought to use me to advance an objective of the ICANN organisation. I can only speak to my experience here. But when their message reached my inbox I was surprised, as I did not even realise their department was monitoring the EPDP discussions. Ayden ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, April 4, 2019 6:43 PM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote: Ayden There are a few things here that are confusing me a little and maybe you can clarify them Are you asking that ALL ICANN Staff who are on the mailing list should be listed on wiki page? Are you also accusing ICANN staffers of trying to influence you? Or are you saying there are people on the list who are not ICANN staff and that some of them tried to influence you? Sorry, but I’m just not 100% clear on what you’re saying. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council-bounces@gnso.icann.org>> on behalf of Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>> Reply-To: Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>> Date: Thursday 4 April 2019 at 11:37 To: GNSO Council List <council@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council@gnso.icann.org>> Subject: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete Dear all, At the moment, the list of Observers for the EPDP's mailing list is incomplete. When I have sent messages to the EPDP list, I have received replies from some individuals, seeking to influence me, whose names are not listed on the Observer page as Observers. It is possible that we do not even need to record the names of Observers. Certainly in the case of the pre-IRT, I have suggested that listing their names might be unnecessary - I'm not sure what it really adds. However this is another discussion altogether. If our existing practice in GNSO-chartered working groups is to record the names of Observers, and I believe it is, then I believe this list should be kept complete and up to date. I have asked that the EPDP Observer list be updated and ICANN staff have declined to update the list. The missing names are of ICANN staff members who work in GSE. It apparently would require the support of the GNSO Council to add their names to the page. As these staff are not supporting the EPDP, or at least are not supporting it to my knowledge, but have been reading the emails and seeking to influence EPDP members, then I believe their names should be made public along with the rest of the EPDP Observers, official staff support, members, and alternates. I do not understand why their names would not be published and I think it is inconsistent with the principles of accountability and transparency that ICANN claims to value. When I have pushed back and asked why these names cannot be added, I was told that it is to keep the wiki page short. However it already has over 200 names so it isn't short at the moment. I prefer to prioritise having a complete list, rather than a concise one, as in the case of the wiki, there are really no technical restrictions to adding the missing names to the page. We trust, or at least I trust, that when I visit something on the ICANN website, that it will be complete and accurate. If it isn't, I expect there to be a disclaimer or note explaining what it included, so I can make that decision myself as to its accuracy. The EPDP list of Observers does not state that some people observing the list will not have their names included. If that is the case, there should be a defined policy around who is/is not named, but I see no reason not to include the names of ICANN staff who are observing the mailing list and seeking to influence discussions behind the scenes. I am sending this message to the Council list because I have been advised by ICANN staff that the Observer list will only be updated if it is the expressed wish of either the GNSO Council or of the EPDP chair. I would like to ask the Council to support this request please. Thank you. Ayden Férdeline
No. This _is_ a conversation for the Council to have. We are not discussing the comments that we made to me. We are discussing the Observer list and whether or not it should be complete. And it should be, in my view. Why should there be one standard for community transparency, and another, lower one, for staff? Regards, Ayden Sent from ProtonMail Mobile On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 20:22, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> wrote:
Ayden
I’ll keep this brief
1 - I don’t think listing staff members who are subscribed to various lists is necessary and I can also see that creating more problems than it solves
2 - as this is a rather serious allegation I’ll leave it to Keith or Marika to address.
However I don’t understand why you thought it appropriate to raise on this list without first speaking to the interim chair. As Council we shouldn’t be getting into this sort of issue unless other avenues have been exhausted
Regards
Michele
Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Hosting & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://www.mneylon.social Sent from mobile so typos and brevity are normal
On 4 Apr 2019, at 18:20, Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com> wrote:
Hi Michele,
Thanks for your questions.
Yes, I believe all ICANN staff members who are subscribed to the mailing list should be named on the wiki page. We can separate them between staff observers and support staff. But if we name community observers, I do not understand why we would not name staff observers, and especially so if they are reading the list in their professional capacity and then attempting to influence discussions with participants.
And yes, it was an ICANN staff member (not support staff, but from GSE), who attempted to influence me and sought to use me to advance an objective of the ICANN organisation. I can only speak to my experience here. But when their message reached my inbox I was surprised, as I did not even realise their department was monitoring the EPDP discussions.
Ayden
‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, April 4, 2019 6:43 PM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> wrote:
Ayden
There are a few things here that are confusing me a little and maybe you can clarify them
Are you asking that ALL ICANN Staff who are on the mailing list should be listed on wiki page?
Are you also accusing ICANN staffers of trying to influence you?
Or are you saying there are people on the list who are not ICANN staff and that some of them tried to influence you?
Sorry, but I’m just not 100% clear on what you’re saying.
Regards
Michele
--
Mr Michele Neylon
Blacknight Solutions
Hosting, Colocation & Domains
Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072
Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
Personal blog: https://michele.blog/
Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/
-------------------------------
Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty
Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845
From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org> on behalf of Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com> Reply-To: Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com> Date: Thursday 4 April 2019 at 11:37 To: GNSO Council List <council@gnso.icann.org> Subject: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete
Dear all,
At the moment, the list of Observers for the EPDP's mailing list is incomplete.
When I have sent messages to the EPDP list, I have received replies from some individuals, seeking to influence me, whose names are not listed on the Observer page as Observers.
It is possible that we do not even need to record the names of Observers. Certainly in the case of the pre-IRT, I have suggested that listing their names might be unnecessary - I'm not sure what it really adds. However this is another discussion altogether.
If our existing practice in GNSO-chartered working groups is to record the names of Observers, and I believe it is, then I believe this list should be kept complete and up to date.
I have asked that the EPDP Observer list be updated and ICANN staff have declined to update the list. The missing names are of ICANN staff members who work in GSE. It apparently would require the support of the GNSO Council to add their names to the page.
As these staff are not supporting the EPDP, or at least are not supporting it to my knowledge, but have been reading the emails and seeking to influence EPDP members, then I believe their names should be made public along with the rest of the EPDP Observers, official staff support, members, and alternates. I do not understand why their names would not be published and I think it is inconsistent with the principles of accountability and transparency that ICANN claims to value.
When I have pushed back and asked why these names cannot be added, I was told that it is to keep the wiki page short. However it already has over 200 names so it isn't short at the moment. I prefer to prioritise having a complete list, rather than a concise one, as in the case of the wiki, there are really no technical restrictions to adding the missing names to the page.
We trust, or at least I trust, that when I visit something on the ICANN website, that it will be complete and accurate. If it isn't, I expect there to be a disclaimer or note explaining what it included, so I can make that decision myself as to its accuracy. The EPDP list of Observers does not state that some people observing the list will not have their names included. If that is the case, there should be a defined policy around who is/is not named, but I see no reason not to include the names of ICANN staff who are observing the mailing list and seeking to influence discussions behind the scenes.
I am sending this message to the Council list because I have been advised by ICANN staff that the Observer list will only be updated if it is the expressed wish of either the GNSO Council or of the EPDP chair. I would like to ask the Council to support this request please.
Thank you.
Ayden Férdeline
All, My quick and preliminary reaction here is: 1. We should decide whether we believe observer lists are needed, or not. I don’t have a strong opinion here. Noting that anyone can technically ‘observe’ PDP WG email discussions via the public email archives, perhaps maintaining a list of subscribed observers is mostly meaningless and really just an extra burden on staff to maintain. 2. However, IF we decide we want a list of subscribed observers, I agree with Ayden it should be complete, up-to-date and accurate, to include all observes whether they are staff or otherwise. Otherwise, what’s the point? Naturally recognizing that all GNSO Policy staff subscribe to all PDP mailing lists, we could identify them by group rather than name. 3. The issue of ICANN Staff attempting to influence a community member during policy development work is an entirely different discussion, and one that might warrant escalation to the staffer’s manager. Ayden and I will take that off-list and figure out the most appropriate path forward. Thanks, Keith From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org> On Behalf Of Ayden Férdeline Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2019 2:29 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> Cc: GNSO Council List <council@gnso.icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete No. This _is_ a conversation for the Council to have. We are not discussing the comments that we made to me. We are discussing the Observer list and whether or not it should be complete. And it should be, in my view. Why should there be one standard for community transparency, and another, lower one, for staff? Regards, Ayden Sent from ProtonMail Mobile On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 20:22, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote: Ayden I’ll keep this brief 1 - I don’t think listing staff members who are subscribed to various lists is necessary and I can also see that creating more problems than it solves 2 - as this is a rather serious allegation I’ll leave it to Keith or Marika to address. However I don’t understand why you thought it appropriate to raise on this list without first speaking to the interim chair. As Council we shouldn’t be getting into this sort of issue unless other avenues have been exhausted Regards Michele Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Hosting & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://www.mneylon.social Sent from mobile so typos and brevity are normal On 4 Apr 2019, at 18:20, Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>> wrote: Hi Michele, Thanks for your questions. Yes, I believe all ICANN staff members who are subscribed to the mailing list should be named on the wiki page. We can separate them between staff observers and support staff. But if we name community observers, I do not understand why we would not name staff observers, and especially so if they are reading the list in their professional capacity and then attempting to influence discussions with participants. And yes, it was an ICANN staff member (not support staff, but from GSE), who attempted to influence me and sought to use me to advance an objective of the ICANN organisation. I can only speak to my experience here. But when their message reached my inbox I was surprised, as I did not even realise their department was monitoring the EPDP discussions. Ayden ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, April 4, 2019 6:43 PM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote: Ayden There are a few things here that are confusing me a little and maybe you can clarify them Are you asking that ALL ICANN Staff who are on the mailing list should be listed on wiki page? Are you also accusing ICANN staffers of trying to influence you? Or are you saying there are people on the list who are not ICANN staff and that some of them tried to influence you? Sorry, but I’m just not 100% clear on what you’re saying. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council-bounces@gnso.icann.org>> on behalf of Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>> Reply-To: Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>> Date: Thursday 4 April 2019 at 11:37 To: GNSO Council List <council@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council@gnso.icann.org>> Subject: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete Dear all, At the moment, the list of Observers for the EPDP's mailing list is incomplete. When I have sent messages to the EPDP list, I have received replies from some individuals, seeking to influence me, whose names are not listed on the Observer page as Observers. It is possible that we do not even need to record the names of Observers. Certainly in the case of the pre-IRT, I have suggested that listing their names might be unnecessary - I'm not sure what it really adds. However this is another discussion altogether. If our existing practice in GNSO-chartered working groups is to record the names of Observers, and I believe it is, then I believe this list should be kept complete and up to date. I have asked that the EPDP Observer list be updated and ICANN staff have declined to update the list. The missing names are of ICANN staff members who work in GSE. It apparently would require the support of the GNSO Council to add their names to the page. As these staff are not supporting the EPDP, or at least are not supporting it to my knowledge, but have been reading the emails and seeking to influence EPDP members, then I believe their names should be made public along with the rest of the EPDP Observers, official staff support, members, and alternates. I do not understand why their names would not be published and I think it is inconsistent with the principles of accountability and transparency that ICANN claims to value. When I have pushed back and asked why these names cannot be added, I was told that it is to keep the wiki page short. However it already has over 200 names so it isn't short at the moment. I prefer to prioritise having a complete list, rather than a concise one, as in the case of the wiki, there are really no technical restrictions to adding the missing names to the page. We trust, or at least I trust, that when I visit something on the ICANN website, that it will be complete and accurate. If it isn't, I expect there to be a disclaimer or note explaining what it included, so I can make that decision myself as to its accuracy. The EPDP list of Observers does not state that some people observing the list will not have their names included. If that is the case, there should be a defined policy around who is/is not named, but I see no reason not to include the names of ICANN staff who are observing the mailing list and seeking to influence discussions behind the scenes. I am sending this message to the Council list because I have been advised by ICANN staff that the Observer list will only be updated if it is the expressed wish of either the GNSO Council or of the EPDP chair. I would like to ask the Council to support this request please. Thank you. Ayden Férdeline
Hi All, I won’t opine on whether the observer list should be published or not, but I wish to offer a bit of information about this issue. Our current process for documenting WG rosters exists on a decentralized solution of the Wiki, which is considered the authoritative list. The mailman lists created for WGs of course is managed via the mailman interface and while it’s not considered authoritative it has no easy way to reconcile it back to the roster on the Wiki. Also, a “third list” is maintained for Members/Participants so that attendance can be taken against the roster via an Excel sheet. Suffice it to say, it is a challenge to maintain accuracy given the quantity of changes in the life of a given WG across the three different tools and with 8 or so “live” groups. The good news is that this will change with a centralized WG Enrollment tool on a CRM. In the future, community members will be able to manage their WG status (participant vs. observer) and their SOIs via the WGE portal. While the go-live date for this application is several months away, staff is starting to migrate in-flight WGs into the backend of the CRM for which it will become the authoritative source for managing WG rosters and attendance tracking. At some interval, staff will export roster and attendance data for publication on the wiki until an automated publication solution is developed. But this should/will go a long way to help maintain higher levels of accuracy. When the next generation roster is posted on the wiki, it will be categorized by Members/Participant, Observers, and ICANN staff. Should the Council decide not to publish the Observer list, we can easily filter them out from the roster reports. In the next few months, we’ll be scheduling time for a demonstration of the new enrollment management tool. EPDP-Phase 2 is already setup in the CRM and ready to go once the final membership roster has been determined. We’re working on importing the 200 Observers as well which will include a reconciliation between that list and what is loaded on the Mailman interface. Once a meeting schedule is determined, staff will start to create events for which attendance can be tracked and published back to the Wiki. I hope you find this useful. Thank you. B GNSO Policy Consultant @berrycobbb From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org> On Behalf Of Drazek, Keith via council Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 14:49 To: icann@ferdeline.com; michele@blacknight.com Cc: council@gnso.icann.org Subject: Re: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete All, My quick and preliminary reaction here is: 1. We should decide whether we believe observer lists are needed, or not. I don’t have a strong opinion here. Noting that anyone can technically ‘observe’ PDP WG email discussions via the public email archives, perhaps maintaining a list of subscribed observers is mostly meaningless and really just an extra burden on staff to maintain. 2. However, IF we decide we want a list of subscribed observers, I agree with Ayden it should be complete, up-to-date and accurate, to include all observes whether they are staff or otherwise. Otherwise, what’s the point? Naturally recognizing that all GNSO Policy staff subscribe to all PDP mailing lists, we could identify them by group rather than name. 3. The issue of ICANN Staff attempting to influence a community member during policy development work is an entirely different discussion, and one that might warrant escalation to the staffer’s manager. Ayden and I will take that off-list and figure out the most appropriate path forward. Thanks, Keith From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org <mailto:council-bounces@gnso.icann.org> > On Behalf Of Ayden Férdeline Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2019 2:29 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com <mailto:michele@blacknight.com> > Cc: GNSO Council List <council@gnso.icann.org <mailto:council@gnso.icann.org> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete No. This _is_ a conversation for the Council to have. We are not discussing the comments that we made to me. We are discussing the Observer list and whether or not it should be complete. And it should be, in my view. Why should there be one standard for community transparency, and another, lower one, for staff? Regards, Ayden Sent from ProtonMail Mobile On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 20:22, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com <mailto:michele@blacknight.com> > wrote: Ayden I’ll keep this brief 1 - I don’t think listing staff members who are subscribed to various lists is necessary and I can also see that creating more problems than it solves 2 - as this is a rather serious allegation I’ll leave it to Keith or Marika to address. However I don’t understand why you thought it appropriate to raise on this list without first speaking to the interim chair. As Council we shouldn’t be getting into this sort of issue unless other avenues have been exhausted Regards Michele Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Hosting & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://www.mneylon.social Sent from mobile so typos and brevity are normal On 4 Apr 2019, at 18:20, Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com <mailto:icann@ferdeline.com> > wrote: Hi Michele, Thanks for your questions. Yes, I believe all ICANN staff members who are subscribed to the mailing list should be named on the wiki page. We can separate them between staff observers and support staff. But if we name community observers, I do not understand why we would not name staff observers, and especially so if they are reading the list in their professional capacity and then attempting to influence discussions with participants. And yes, it was an ICANN staff member (not support staff, but from GSE), who attempted to influence me and sought to use me to advance an objective of the ICANN organisation. I can only speak to my experience here. But when their message reached my inbox I was surprised, as I did not even realise their department was monitoring the EPDP discussions. Ayden ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, April 4, 2019 6:43 PM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com <mailto:michele@blacknight.com> > wrote: Ayden There are a few things here that are confusing me a little and maybe you can clarify them Are you asking that ALL ICANN Staff who are on the mailing list should be listed on wiki page? Are you also accusing ICANN staffers of trying to influence you? Or are you saying there are people on the list who are not ICANN staff and that some of them tried to influence you? Sorry, but I’m just not 100% clear on what you’re saying. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: council < <mailto:council-bounces@gnso.icann.org> council-bounces@gnso.icann.org> on behalf of Ayden Férdeline < <mailto:icann@ferdeline.com> icann@ferdeline.com> Reply-To: Ayden Férdeline < <mailto:icann@ferdeline.com> icann@ferdeline.com> Date: Thursday 4 April 2019 at 11:37 To: GNSO Council List < <mailto:council@gnso.icann.org> council@gnso.icann.org> Subject: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete Dear all, At the moment, the list of Observers for the EPDP's mailing list is incomplete. When I have sent messages to the EPDP list, I have received replies from some individuals, seeking to influence me, whose names are not listed on the Observer page as Observers. It is possible that we do not even need to record the names of Observers. Certainly in the case of the pre-IRT, I have suggested that listing their names might be unnecessary - I'm not sure what it really adds. However this is another discussion altogether. If our existing practice in GNSO-chartered working groups is to record the names of Observers, and I believe it is, then I believe this list should be kept complete and up to date. I have asked that the EPDP Observer list be updated and ICANN staff have declined to update the list. The missing names are of ICANN staff members who work in GSE. It apparently would require the support of the GNSO Council to add their names to the page. As these staff are not supporting the EPDP, or at least are not supporting it to my knowledge, but have been reading the emails and seeking to influence EPDP members, then I believe their names should be made public along with the rest of the EPDP Observers, official staff support, members, and alternates. I do not understand why their names would not be published and I think it is inconsistent with the principles of accountability and transparency that ICANN claims to value. When I have pushed back and asked why these names cannot be added, I was told that it is to keep the wiki page short. However it already has over 200 names so it isn't short at the moment. I prefer to prioritise having a complete list, rather than a concise one, as in the case of the wiki, there are really no technical restrictions to adding the missing names to the page. We trust, or at least I trust, that when I visit something on the ICANN website, that it will be complete and accurate. If it isn't, I expect there to be a disclaimer or note explaining what it included, so I can make that decision myself as to its accuracy. The EPDP list of Observers does not state that some people observing the list will not have their names included. If that is the case, there should be a defined policy around who is/is not named, but I see no reason not to include the names of ICANN staff who are observing the mailing list and seeking to influence discussions behind the scenes. I am sending this message to the Council list because I have been advised by ICANN staff that the Observer list will only be updated if it is the expressed wish of either the GNSO Council or of the EPDP chair. I would like to ask the Council to support this request please. Thank you. Ayden Férdeline
Thank you, Berry, for explaining the situation and our improvements over time to address better the way we can manage WG rosters. Regards. David Sent from my iPhone David A. Olive Senior Vice President Policy Development Support Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) On Apr 4, 2019, at 2:48 PM, "mail@berrycobb.com<mailto:mail@berrycobb.com>" <mail@berrycobb.com<mailto:mail@berrycobb.com>> wrote: Hi All, I won’t opine on whether the observer list should be published or not, but I wish to offer a bit of information about this issue. Our current process for documenting WG rosters exists on a decentralized solution of the Wiki, which is considered the authoritative list. The mailman lists created for WGs of course is managed via the mailman interface and while it’s not considered authoritative it has no easy way to reconcile it back to the roster on the Wiki. Also, a “third list” is maintained for Members/Participants so that attendance can be taken against the roster via an Excel sheet. Suffice it to say, it is a challenge to maintain accuracy given the quantity of changes in the life of a given WG across the three different tools and with 8 or so “live” groups. The good news is that this will change with a centralized WG Enrollment tool on a CRM. In the future, community members will be able to manage their WG status (participant vs. observer) and their SOIs via the WGE portal. While the go-live date for this application is several months away, staff is starting to migrate in-flight WGs into the backend of the CRM for which it will become the authoritative source for managing WG rosters and attendance tracking. At some interval, staff will export roster and attendance data for publication on the wiki until an automated publication solution is developed. But this should/will go a long way to help maintain higher levels of accuracy. When the next generation roster is posted on the wiki, it will be categorized by Members/Participant, Observers, and ICANN staff. Should the Council decide not to publish the Observer list, we can easily filter them out from the roster reports. In the next few months, we’ll be scheduling time for a demonstration of the new enrollment management tool. EPDP-Phase 2 is already setup in the CRM and ready to go once the final membership roster has been determined. We’re working on importing the 200 Observers as well which will include a reconciliation between that list and what is loaded on the Mailman interface. Once a meeting schedule is determined, staff will start to create events for which attendance can be tracked and published back to the Wiki. I hope you find this useful. Thank you. B GNSO Policy Consultant @berrycobbb From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council-bounces@gnso.icann.org>> On Behalf Of Drazek, Keith via council Sent: Thursday, April 4, 2019 14:49 To: icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>; michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com> Cc: council@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council@gnso.icann.org> Subject: Re: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete All, My quick and preliminary reaction here is: 1. We should decide whether we believe observer lists are needed, or not. I don’t have a strong opinion here. Noting that anyone can technically ‘observe’ PDP WG email discussions via the public email archives, perhaps maintaining a list of subscribed observers is mostly meaningless and really just an extra burden on staff to maintain. 2. However, IF we decide we want a list of subscribed observers, I agree with Ayden it should be complete, up-to-date and accurate, to include all observes whether they are staff or otherwise. Otherwise, what’s the point? Naturally recognizing that all GNSO Policy staff subscribe to all PDP mailing lists, we could identify them by group rather than name. 3. The issue of ICANN Staff attempting to influence a community member during policy development work is an entirely different discussion, and one that might warrant escalation to the staffer’s manager. Ayden and I will take that off-list and figure out the most appropriate path forward. Thanks, Keith From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council-bounces@gnso.icann.org>> On Behalf Of Ayden Férdeline Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2019 2:29 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> Cc: GNSO Council List <council@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council@gnso.icann.org>> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete No. This _is_ a conversation for the Council to have. We are not discussing the comments that we made to me. We are discussing the Observer list and whether or not it should be complete. And it should be, in my view. Why should there be one standard for community transparency, and another, lower one, for staff? Regards, Ayden Sent from ProtonMail Mobile On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 20:22, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote: Ayden I’ll keep this brief 1 - I don’t think listing staff members who are subscribed to various lists is necessary and I can also see that creating more problems than it solves 2 - as this is a rather serious allegation I’ll leave it to Keith or Marika to address. However I don’t understand why you thought it appropriate to raise on this list without first speaking to the interim chair. As Council we shouldn’t be getting into this sort of issue unless other avenues have been exhausted Regards Michele Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Hosting & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ [blacknight.host]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.blacknight.host_&d=D...> http://www.mneylon.social [mneylon.social]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mneylon.social&d=DwM...> Sent from mobile so typos and brevity are normal On 4 Apr 2019, at 18:20, Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>> wrote: Hi Michele, Thanks for your questions. Yes, I believe all ICANN staff members who are subscribed to the mailing list should be named on the wiki page. We can separate them between staff observers and support staff. But if we name community observers, I do not understand why we would not name staff observers, and especially so if they are reading the list in their professional capacity and then attempting to influence discussions with participants. And yes, it was an ICANN staff member (not support staff, but from GSE), who attempted to influence me and sought to use me to advance an objective of the ICANN organisation. I can only speak to my experience here. But when their message reached my inbox I was surprised, as I did not even realise their department was monitoring the EPDP discussions. Ayden ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, April 4, 2019 6:43 PM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote: Ayden There are a few things here that are confusing me a little and maybe you can clarify them Are you asking that ALL ICANN Staff who are on the mailing list should be listed on wiki page? Are you also accusing ICANN staffers of trying to influence you? Or are you saying there are people on the list who are not ICANN staff and that some of them tried to influence you? Sorry, but I’m just not 100% clear on what you’re saying. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ [blacknight.com]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.blacknight.com_&d=D...> https://blacknight.blog/ [blacknight.blog]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__blacknight.blog_&d=DwMF...> Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ [michele.blog]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__michele.blog_&d=DwMFaQ&...> Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ [ceo.hosting]<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ceo.hosting_&d=DwMFaQ&c...> ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council-bounces@gnso.icann.org>> on behalf of Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>> Reply-To: Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>> Date: Thursday 4 April 2019 at 11:37 To: GNSO Council List <council@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council@gnso.icann.org>> Subject: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete Dear all, At the moment, the list of Observers for the EPDP's mailing list is incomplete. When I have sent messages to the EPDP list, I have received replies from some individuals, seeking to influence me, whose names are not listed on the Observer page as Observers. It is possible that we do not even need to record the names of Observers. Certainly in the case of the pre-IRT, I have suggested that listing their names might be unnecessary - I'm not sure what it really adds. However this is another discussion altogether. If our existing practice in GNSO-chartered working groups is to record the names of Observers, and I believe it is, then I believe this list should be kept complete and up to date. I have asked that the EPDP Observer list be updated and ICANN staff have declined to update the list. The missing names are of ICANN staff members who work in GSE. It apparently would require the support of the GNSO Council to add their names to the page. As these staff are not supporting the EPDP, or at least are not supporting it to my knowledge, but have been reading the emails and seeking to influence EPDP members, then I believe their names should be made public along with the rest of the EPDP Observers, official staff support, members, and alternates. I do not understand why their names would not be published and I think it is inconsistent with the principles of accountability and transparency that ICANN claims to value. When I have pushed back and asked why these names cannot be added, I was told that it is to keep the wiki page short. However it already has over 200 names so it isn't short at the moment. I prefer to prioritise having a complete list, rather than a concise one, as in the case of the wiki, there are really no technical restrictions to adding the missing names to the page. We trust, or at least I trust, that when I visit something on the ICANN website, that it will be complete and accurate. If it isn't, I expect there to be a disclaimer or note explaining what it included, so I can make that decision myself as to its accuracy. The EPDP list of Observers does not state that some people observing the list will not have their names included. If that is the case, there should be a defined policy around who is/is not named, but I see no reason not to include the names of ICANN staff who are observing the mailing list and seeking to influence discussions behind the scenes. I am sending this message to the Council list because I have been advised by ICANN staff that the Observer list will only be updated if it is the expressed wish of either the GNSO Council or of the EPDP chair. I would like to ask the Council to support this request please. Thank you. Ayden Férdeline _______________________________________________ council mailing list council@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council@gnso.icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/council
Em 4 de abr de 2019, à(s) 15:48:000, Drazek, Keith via council <council@gnso.icann.org> escreveu:
All,
My quick and preliminary reaction here is:
We should decide whether we believe observer lists are needed, or not. I don’t have a strong opinion here. Noting that anyone can technically ‘observe’ PDP WG email discussions via the public email archives, perhaps maintaining a list of subscribed observers is mostly meaningless and really just an extra burden on staff to maintain.
Agreed.
However, IF we decide we want a list of subscribed observers, I agree with Ayden it should be complete, up-to-date and accurate, to include all observes whether they are staff or otherwise. Otherwise, what’s the point? Naturally recognizing that all GNSO Policy staff subscribe to all PDP mailing lists, we could identify them by group rather than name.
One possibility is not keep a list of who receives the mailing list, which is meaningless for publicly-archived lists, but for those that want to declare themselves observers. It would be unrelated to whether that person gets list mail or not, but a self declaration that he or she is observing. Totally opt-in, revokable at any time. Rubens
I do agree with Rubens. He’s making a good suggestion. Erika Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 4, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@nic.br> wrote:
Em 4 de abr de 2019, à(s) 15:48:000, Drazek, Keith via council <council@gnso.icann.org> escreveu:
All,
My quick and preliminary reaction here is:
We should decide whether we believe observer lists are needed, or not. I don’t have a strong opinion here. Noting that anyone can technically ‘observe’ PDP WG email discussions via the public email archives, perhaps maintaining a list of subscribed observers is mostly meaningless and really just an extra burden on staff to maintain.
Agreed.
However, IF we decide we want a list of subscribed observers, I agree with Ayden it should be complete, up-to-date and accurate, to include all observes whether they are staff or otherwise. Otherwise, what’s the point? Naturally recognizing that all GNSO Policy staff subscribe to all PDP mailing lists, we could identify them by group rather than name.
One possibility is not keep a list of who receives the mailing list, which is meaningless for publicly-archived lists, but for those that want to declare themselves observers. It would be unrelated to whether that person gets list mail or not, but a self declaration that he or she is observing. Totally opt-in, revokable at any time.
Rubens
_______________________________________________ council mailing list council@gnso.icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/council
I also agree with Rubens - totally fair point. But if a list is kept, it must be kept accurate and up to date. Darcy On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 11:18 PM Erika Mann <erika@erikamann.com> wrote:
I do agree with Rubens. He’s making a good suggestion. Erika
Sent from my iPhone
On Apr 4, 2019, at 10:59 PM, Rubens Kuhl <rubensk@nic.br> wrote:
Em 4 de abr de 2019, à(s) 15:48:000, Drazek, Keith via council < council@gnso.icann.org> escreveu:
All,
My quick and preliminary reaction here is:
1. We should decide whether we believe observer lists are needed, or not. I don’t have a strong opinion here. Noting that anyone can technically ‘observe’ PDP WG email discussions via the public email archives, perhaps maintaining a list of subscribed observers is mostly meaningless and really just an extra burden on staff to maintain.
Agreed.
1. 2. However, IF we decide we want a list of subscribed observers, I agree with Ayden it should be complete, up-to-date and accurate, to include all observes whether they are staff or otherwise. Otherwise, what’s the point? Naturally recognizing that all GNSO Policy staff subscribe to all PDP mailing lists, we could identify them by group rather than name.
One possibility is not keep a list of who receives the mailing list, which is meaningless for publicly-archived lists, but for those that want to declare themselves observers. It would be unrelated to whether that person gets list mail or not, but a self declaration that he or she is observing. Totally opt-in, revokable at any time.
Rubens
_______________________________________________ council mailing list council@gnso.icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/council
_______________________________________________ council mailing list council@gnso.icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/council
participants (8)
-
Ayden Férdeline -
Darcy Southwell -
David Olive -
Drazek, Keith -
Erika Mann -
mail＠berrycobb.com -
Michele Neylon - Blacknight -
Rubens Kuhl