All, My quick and preliminary reaction here is: 1. We should decide whether we believe observer lists are needed, or not. I don’t have a strong opinion here. Noting that anyone can technically ‘observe’ PDP WG email discussions via the public email archives, perhaps maintaining a list of subscribed observers is mostly meaningless and really just an extra burden on staff to maintain. 2. However, IF we decide we want a list of subscribed observers, I agree with Ayden it should be complete, up-to-date and accurate, to include all observes whether they are staff or otherwise. Otherwise, what’s the point? Naturally recognizing that all GNSO Policy staff subscribe to all PDP mailing lists, we could identify them by group rather than name. 3. The issue of ICANN Staff attempting to influence a community member during policy development work is an entirely different discussion, and one that might warrant escalation to the staffer’s manager. Ayden and I will take that off-list and figure out the most appropriate path forward. Thanks, Keith From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org> On Behalf Of Ayden Férdeline Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2019 2:29 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com> Cc: GNSO Council List <council@gnso.icann.org> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete No. This _is_ a conversation for the Council to have. We are not discussing the comments that we made to me. We are discussing the Observer list and whether or not it should be complete. And it should be, in my view. Why should there be one standard for community transparency, and another, lower one, for staff? Regards, Ayden Sent from ProtonMail Mobile On Thu, Apr 4, 2019 at 20:22, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote: Ayden I’ll keep this brief 1 - I don’t think listing staff members who are subscribed to various lists is necessary and I can also see that creating more problems than it solves 2 - as this is a rather serious allegation I’ll leave it to Keith or Marika to address. However I don’t understand why you thought it appropriate to raise on this list without first speaking to the interim chair. As Council we shouldn’t be getting into this sort of issue unless other avenues have been exhausted Regards Michele Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Hosting & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://www.mneylon.social Sent from mobile so typos and brevity are normal On 4 Apr 2019, at 18:20, Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>> wrote: Hi Michele, Thanks for your questions. Yes, I believe all ICANN staff members who are subscribed to the mailing list should be named on the wiki page. We can separate them between staff observers and support staff. But if we name community observers, I do not understand why we would not name staff observers, and especially so if they are reading the list in their professional capacity and then attempting to influence discussions with participants. And yes, it was an ICANN staff member (not support staff, but from GSE), who attempted to influence me and sought to use me to advance an objective of the ICANN organisation. I can only speak to my experience here. But when their message reached my inbox I was surprised, as I did not even realise their department was monitoring the EPDP discussions. Ayden ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ On Thursday, April 4, 2019 6:43 PM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight <michele@blacknight.com<mailto:michele@blacknight.com>> wrote: Ayden There are a few things here that are confusing me a little and maybe you can clarify them Are you asking that ALL ICANN Staff who are on the mailing list should be listed on wiki page? Are you also accusing ICANN staffers of trying to influence you? Or are you saying there are people on the list who are not ICANN staff and that some of them tried to influence you? Sorry, but I’m just not 100% clear on what you’re saying. Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains https://www.blacknight.com/ https://blacknight.blog/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Personal blog: https://michele.blog/ Some thoughts: https://ceo.hosting/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,R93 X265,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: council <council-bounces@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council-bounces@gnso.icann.org>> on behalf of Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>> Reply-To: Ayden Férdeline <icann@ferdeline.com<mailto:icann@ferdeline.com>> Date: Thursday 4 April 2019 at 11:37 To: GNSO Council List <council@gnso.icann.org<mailto:council@gnso.icann.org>> Subject: [council] EPDP list of Observers is incomplete Dear all, At the moment, the list of Observers for the EPDP's mailing list is incomplete. When I have sent messages to the EPDP list, I have received replies from some individuals, seeking to influence me, whose names are not listed on the Observer page as Observers. It is possible that we do not even need to record the names of Observers. Certainly in the case of the pre-IRT, I have suggested that listing their names might be unnecessary - I'm not sure what it really adds. However this is another discussion altogether. If our existing practice in GNSO-chartered working groups is to record the names of Observers, and I believe it is, then I believe this list should be kept complete and up to date. I have asked that the EPDP Observer list be updated and ICANN staff have declined to update the list. The missing names are of ICANN staff members who work in GSE. It apparently would require the support of the GNSO Council to add their names to the page. As these staff are not supporting the EPDP, or at least are not supporting it to my knowledge, but have been reading the emails and seeking to influence EPDP members, then I believe their names should be made public along with the rest of the EPDP Observers, official staff support, members, and alternates. I do not understand why their names would not be published and I think it is inconsistent with the principles of accountability and transparency that ICANN claims to value. When I have pushed back and asked why these names cannot be added, I was told that it is to keep the wiki page short. However it already has over 200 names so it isn't short at the moment. I prefer to prioritise having a complete list, rather than a concise one, as in the case of the wiki, there are really no technical restrictions to adding the missing names to the page. We trust, or at least I trust, that when I visit something on the ICANN website, that it will be complete and accurate. If it isn't, I expect there to be a disclaimer or note explaining what it included, so I can make that decision myself as to its accuracy. The EPDP list of Observers does not state that some people observing the list will not have their names included. If that is the case, there should be a defined policy around who is/is not named, but I see no reason not to include the names of ICANN staff who are observing the mailing list and seeking to influence discussions behind the scenes. I am sending this message to the Council list because I have been advised by ICANN staff that the Observer list will only be updated if it is the expressed wish of either the GNSO Council or of the EPDP chair. I would like to ask the Council to support this request please. Thank you. Ayden Férdeline