FW: [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template
All, Please see attached for the revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement. Jonathan From: Hofheimer, Joshua T. [mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com] Sent: 27 July 2016 01:03 To: Client Committee <cwg-client@icann.org> Subject: [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template Greg and all, Attached are the final CWG revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement, clean and marked against the originals. Per my prior note Greg, are you going to post, or do you want Sidley to do so. Cheers, Josh Joshua Hofheimer Sidley Austin LLP jhofheimer@sidley.com <mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com> (213) 896-6061 (LA direct) (650) 565-7561 (Palo Alto direct) (323) 708-2405 (cell) **************************************************************************************************** This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately. ****************************************************************************************************
Hi, Just to be clear, by "final revised drafts" this means "the position that we have come to with which we want to negotiate with the Trust and the other OCs", right? Because I think I can state without fear of contradiction that some of the proposals contained in here are considerably more controversial than others. Best regards, A On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 11:24:07AM +0100, Jonathan Robinson wrote:
All,
Please see attached for the revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement.
Jonathan
From: Hofheimer, Joshua T. [mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com] Sent: 27 July 2016 01:03 To: Client Committee <cwg-client@icann.org> Subject: [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template
Greg and all,
Attached are the final CWG revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement, clean and marked against the originals. Per my prior note Greg, are you going to post, or do you want Sidley to do so.
Cheers,
Josh
Joshua Hofheimer
Sidley Austin LLP
jhofheimer@sidley.com <mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com>
(213) 896-6061 (LA direct)
(650) 565-7561 (Palo Alto direct)
(323) 708-2405 (cell)
**************************************************************************************************** This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately.
****************************************************************************************************
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-- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com
Thanks Andrew, Correct. Initial drafts were produced from the IETF. We (the CWG and Sidley) reviewed these and Sidley responded with revised drafts. These are the "final" revised drafts at this point. But they have not been discussed in any detail with the other communities. Jonathan -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Sullivan [mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com] Sent: 28 July 2016 14:08 To: cwg-stewardship@icann.org Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template Hi, Just to be clear, by "final revised drafts" this means "the position that we have come to with which we want to negotiate with the Trust and the other OCs", right? Because I think I can state without fear of contradiction that some of the proposals contained in here are considerably more controversial than others. Best regards, A On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 11:24:07AM +0100, Jonathan Robinson wrote:
All,
Please see attached for the revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement.
Jonathan
From: Hofheimer, Joshua T. [mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com] Sent: 27 July 2016 01:03 To: Client Committee <cwg-client@icann.org> Subject: [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template
Greg and all,
Attached are the final CWG revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement, clean and marked against the originals. Per my prior note Greg, are you going to post, or do you want Sidley to do so.
Cheers,
Josh
Joshua Hofheimer
Sidley Austin LLP
jhofheimer@sidley.com <mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com>
(213) 896-6061 (LA direct)
(650) 565-7561 (Palo Alto direct)
(323) 708-2405 (cell)
********************************************************************** ****************************** This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately.
********************************************************************** ******************************
_______________________________________________ Cwg-client mailing list Cwg-client@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-client
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
-- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com _______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
To further clarify, Andrew was looking "down the thread" at an internal note from Sidley to the client committee. So "final" in that note only means that these documents represent the end result of the process of reviewing and revising the prior (first) drafts, and nothing more than that. The email from Jonathan to the CWG did not characterize these as "final". I would call these the "current drafts" and not attempt to divine any deeper meaning to that term. Greg On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Jonathan Robinson <jrobinson@afilias.info> wrote:
Thanks Andrew,
Correct. Initial drafts were produced from the IETF. We (the CWG and Sidley) reviewed these and Sidley responded with revised drafts. These are the "final" revised drafts at this point. But they have not been discussed in any detail with the other communities.
Jonathan
-----Original Message----- From: Andrew Sullivan [mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com] Sent: 28 July 2016 14:08 To: cwg-stewardship@icann.org Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template
Hi,
Just to be clear, by "final revised drafts" this means "the position that we have come to with which we want to negotiate with the Trust and the other OCs", right? Because I think I can state without fear of contradiction that some of the proposals contained in here are considerably more controversial than others.
Best regards,
A
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 11:24:07AM +0100, Jonathan Robinson wrote:
All,
Please see attached for the revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement.
Jonathan
From: Hofheimer, Joshua T. [mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com] Sent: 27 July 2016 01:03 To: Client Committee <cwg-client@icann.org> Subject: [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template
Greg and all,
Attached are the final CWG revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement, clean and marked against the originals. Per my prior note Greg, are you going to post, or do you want Sidley to do so.
Cheers,
Josh
Joshua Hofheimer
Sidley Austin LLP
jhofheimer@sidley.com <mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com>
(213) 896-6061 (LA direct)
(650) 565-7561 (Palo Alto direct)
(323) 708-2405 (cell)
********************************************************************** ****************************** This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately.
********************************************************************** ******************************
_______________________________________________ Cwg-client mailing list Cwg-client@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-client
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
-- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com _______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
Agreed. Thank-you Greg. From: Greg Shatan [mailto:gregshatanipc@gmail.com] Sent: 28 July 2016 15:13 To: Jonathan Robinson <jrobinson@afilias.info> Cc: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>; cwg-stewardship@icann.org Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template To further clarify, Andrew was looking "down the thread" at an internal note from Sidley to the client committee. So "final" in that note only means that these documents represent the end result of the process of reviewing and revising the prior (first) drafts, and nothing more than that. The email from Jonathan to the CWG did not characterize these as "final". I would call these the "current drafts" and not attempt to divine any deeper meaning to that term. Greg On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 9:35 AM, Jonathan Robinson <jrobinson@afilias.info <mailto:jrobinson@afilias.info> > wrote: Thanks Andrew, Correct. Initial drafts were produced from the IETF. We (the CWG and Sidley) reviewed these and Sidley responded with revised drafts. These are the "final" revised drafts at this point. But they have not been discussed in any detail with the other communities. Jonathan -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Sullivan [mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com <mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> ] Sent: 28 July 2016 14:08 To: cwg-stewardship@icann.org <mailto:cwg-stewardship@icann.org> Subject: Re: [CWG-Stewardship] FW: [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template Hi, Just to be clear, by "final revised drafts" this means "the position that we have come to with which we want to negotiate with the Trust and the other OCs", right? Because I think I can state without fear of contradiction that some of the proposals contained in here are considerably more controversial than others. Best regards, A On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 11:24:07AM +0100, Jonathan Robinson wrote:
All,
Please see attached for the revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement.
Jonathan
From: Hofheimer, Joshua T. [mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com <mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com> ] Sent: 27 July 2016 01:03 To: Client Committee <cwg-client@icann.org <mailto:cwg-client@icann.org> > Subject: [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template
Greg and all,
Attached are the final CWG revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement, clean and marked against the originals. Per my prior note Greg, are you going to post, or do you want Sidley to do so.
Cheers,
Josh
Joshua Hofheimer
Sidley Austin LLP
jhofheimer@sidley.com <mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com> <mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com <mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com> >
(213) 896-6061 <tel:%28213%29%20896-6061> (LA direct)
(650) 565-7561 <tel:%28650%29%20565-7561> (Palo Alto direct)
(323) 708-2405 <tel:%28323%29%20708-2405> (cell)
**********************************************************************
****************************** This e-mail is sent by a law firm and
may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately.
********************************************************************** ******************************
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-- Andrew Sullivan ajs@anvilwalrusden.com <mailto:ajs@anvilwalrusden.com> _______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org <mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship _______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org <mailto:CWG-Stewardship@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
Hello, First apologies again for missing the meeting today as I expect what I am about to say must have been discussed at length. I just had a brief look on the community agreement and I was like wow! I cannot help but wonder whether we are still talking about IANA IPR or the actual ownership of the IANA functions. My first general impression about this is that i think this is too complicated and too unnecessarily detailed and cumbersome. There are quite a number of segments in the agreement that makes it clear that the CCG is in control while the trust is just an implementation medium; I liken the trust role to that of the sole member. One of such sections is quoted below: "Accordingly, the IETF Trust agrees, as set forth below, to seek the advice and *consent* of the CCG with respect to *all* matters concerning the IANA Intellectual Property,..." Will I have no problem with notification to the operational communities, the above implies requirement for approval of CCG for everything the IETF does relating to IANA IPR and domain. This IMO is an overkill and is not acceptable, not just because i feel it's technical wrong to control a Trust in such manner but because it's improper to put such power in the hands of volunteer community (Infact it's in the hand of 1 person from each community since the agreement suggests that the trust should not question communication from respective Co-Chairs). I thought the CCG was going to act in a review mode; while providing advice to their respective communities(or directly to the trust) whenever issues are identified but this is way beyond the scope. I believe any official communication to the Trust that are critical MUST always come from executives of the respective communities and NOT from CCG. Afterall the executives will be the signatories to the agreement. Overall i am quite uncomfortable with the community agreement and I hope that this issue would be addressed amicably. As I have always said, the protocol is the source of all these and I don't see why we are overloading this particular part of the transition unnecessarily. Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos On 28 Jul 2016 11:29 a.m., "Jonathan Robinson" <jrobinson@afilias.info> wrote:
All,
Please see attached for the revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement.
Jonathan
*From:* Hofheimer, Joshua T. [mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com] *Sent:* 27 July 2016 01:03 *To:* Client Committee <cwg-client@icann.org> *Subject:* [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template
Greg and all,
Attached are the final CWG revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement, clean and marked against the originals. Per my prior note Greg, are you going to post, or do you want Sidley to do so.
Cheers,
Josh
*Joshua Hofheimer*
*Sidley Austin LLP*
*jhofheimer@sidley.com <jhofheimer@sidley.com>*
*(213) 896-6061 (LA direct)*
*(650) 565-7561 (Palo Alto direct)*
*(323) 708-2405 (cell)*
**************************************************************************************************** This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately.
****************************************************************************************************
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Replies inline. Greg On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 4:42 PM, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello,
First apologies again for missing the meeting today as I expect what I am about to say must have been discussed at length. I just had a brief look on the community agreement and I was like wow! I cannot help but wonder whether we are still talking about IANA IPR or the actual ownership of the IANA functions.
My first general impression about this is that i think this is too complicated and too unnecessarily detailed and cumbersome.
Which parts have too much detail? Detail is helpful in avoiding misinterpretation. Much of the detail (and cumbersomeness) is around escalation procedures, which are frankly designed to protect the interests of the Trust in most instances.
There are quite a number of segments in the agreement that makes it clear that the CCG is in control while the trust is just an implementation medium;
I really don't think this is an accurate characterization of the agreements. The Trust initiates virtually all activities. The exceptions are quite limited (either around the transfer to a new IANA operator or in the particular case where one or more communities would like a trademark registered in a different jurisdiction (or potentially, a domain name registered in a different TLD). The CCG's approval role is not complex and is required to be reasonable (ie, not at the CCG's sole discretion). I liken the trust role to that of the sole member. One of such sections is quoted below:
"Accordingly, the IETF Trust agrees, as set forth below, to seek the advice and *consent* of the CCG with respect to *all* matters concerning the IANA Intellectual Property,..."
Will I have no problem with notification to the operational communities, the above implies requirement for approval of CCG for everything the IETF does relating to IANA IPR and domain.
Here I would note that these agreements are still a work in progress. If something is imperfect, that is something we'll work out. The first draft tilted strongly in the other direction -- there were no consents or approvals whatsoever, which did not reflect what was in the Principal Terms document.
This IMO is an overkill and is not acceptable, not just because i feel it's technical wrong to control a Trust in such manner but because it's improper to put such power in the hands of volunteer community (Infact it's in the hand of 1 person from each community since the agreement suggests that the trust should not question communication from respective Co-Chairs)
That particular feature (regarding communications from the co-Chairs) was in the first draft; (we did change this to require the Chair(s) to represent that they were speaking on behalf of their community). In any event, I think it is exceptionally unlikely that the one or more Chairs will go rogue; they would be criticized (and probably removed) by their community. At the same time, there need to be relatively streamlined communications, so the right balance needs to be achieved. I don't see the objection to "volunteer communities" being involved -- that is the basis of the multistakeholder process. Even many who are here in their professional capacity are to a greater or lesser extent volunteers. In an important sense, the IETF are all volunteers, and I doubt you object to their oversight of the IETF Trust.
I thought the CCG was going to act in a review mode; while providing advice to their respective communities(or directly to the trust) whenever issues are identified but this is way beyond the scope. I believe any official communication to the Trust that are critical MUST always come from executives of the respective communities and NOT from CCG. Afterall the executives will be the signatories to the agreement.
This is not what was envisioned and it's entirely consistent with the way other representative groups in this space work. "Executives" (and I'm not sure who that would even be in some communities or parts thereof) are free to be part of the CCG.
Overall i am quite uncomfortable with the community agreement and I hope that this issue would be addressed amicably.
I don't think addressing issues "amicably" is in any way at odds with having a robust agreement. I do hope that the differences in how the agreement works will be addressed amicably, and I have every confidence they will be. As I have always said, the protocol is the source of all these and I don't
see why we are overloading this particular part of the transition unnecessarily.
Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos
On 28 Jul 2016 11:29 a.m., "Jonathan Robinson" <jrobinson@afilias.info> wrote:
All,
Please see attached for the revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement.
Jonathan
*From:* Hofheimer, Joshua T. [mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com] *Sent:* 27 July 2016 01:03 *To:* Client Committee <cwg-client@icann.org> *Subject:* [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template
Greg and all,
Attached are the final CWG revised drafts of the IPR License and the Community Agreement, clean and marked against the originals. Per my prior note Greg, are you going to post, or do you want Sidley to do so.
Cheers,
Josh
*Joshua Hofheimer*
*Sidley Austin LLP*
*jhofheimer@sidley.com <jhofheimer@sidley.com>*
*(213) 896-6061 <%28213%29%20896-6061> (LA direct)*
*(650) 565-7561 <%28650%29%20565-7561> (Palo Alto direct)*
*(323) 708-2405 <%28323%29%20708-2405> (cell)*
**************************************************************************************************** This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately.
****************************************************************************************************
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
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Hello, Do find inline: Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos On 28 Jul 2016 11:36 p.m., "Greg Shatan" <gregshatanipc@gmail.com> wrote:
Replies inline.
Greg
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 4:42 PM, Seun Ojedeji <seun.ojedeji@gmail.com>
wrote:
There are quite a number of segments in the agreement that makes it
clear that the CCG is in control while the trust is just an implementation medium;
I really don't think this is an accurate characterization of the agreements. The Trust initiates virtually all activities......<snip>.... The CCG's approval role is not complex and is required to be reasonable (ie, not at the CCG's sole discretion).
SO: Well you still made my point about CCG. Okay let's just say the CCG in this case is synonymous with the stewardship role of NTIA to ICANN. Infact that may not even be entire accurate because NTIA only concerns itself with critical related changes to RZ and NOT everything IANA department does as is proposed for the CCG.
Here I would note that these agreements are still a work in progress. If
something is imperfect, that is something we'll work out. The first draft tilted strongly in the other direction -- there were no consents or approvals whatsoever, which did not reflect what was in the Principal Terms document.
SO: What part of the CWG principle/proposal or part of the OCs principle terms document requires approval of the community for *every* IANA related action of the Trust?
This IMO is an overkill and is not acceptable, not just because i feel it's technical wrong to control a Trust in such manner but because it's improper to put such power in the hands of volunteer community (Infact it's in the hand of 1 person from each community since the agreement suggests that the trust should not question communication from respective Co-Chairs)
That particular feature (regarding communications from the co-Chairs) was in the first draft; (we did change this to require the Chair(s) to represent that they were speaking on behalf of their community). In any event, I think it is exceptionally unlikely that the one or more Chairs will go rogue; they would be criticized (and probably removed) by their community. At the same time, there need to be relatively streamlined communications, so the right balance needs to be achieved.
SO: Well there was no "approval of everything" requirement attached to the first draft. So that is probably why I was not concerned with the communications of the Co-Chairs then.
I don't see the objection to "volunteer communities" being involved -- that is the basis of the multistakeholder process. Even many who are here in their professional capacity are to a greater or lesser extent volunteers.
SO: You misinterpreted me here, I never said they shouldn't but I said volunteer role in this should be advisory and not managerial in nature.
In an important sense, the IETF are all volunteers, and I doubt you object to their oversight of the IETF Trust.
SO: I really don't have significant understanding of the extent of *formal* oversight that the IETF volunteers/community has over the Trust. I understand that the Trust serves for the benefit of the IETF as a whole so is quite independent of IETF individual community members but the community informally follows and may provide their views/suggestions as may be requested or otherwise. Only the trustees of the IETF Trust are the ones that have legal control over the Trust activities. The CCG in its current form seem to be effectively replacing the trustees, which is contrary to the terms of the IETF Trust[1]
I thought the CCG was going to act in a review mode; while providing advice to their respective communities(or directly to the trust) whenever issues are identified but this is way beyond the scope. I believe any official communication to the Trust that are critical MUST always come from executives of the respective communities and NOT from CCG. Afterall the executives will be the signatories to the agreement.
This is not what was envisioned and it's entirely consistent with the way other representative groups in this space work.
SO: May I have a reference to where "what was envisioned" is documented and agreed to by the CWG(and ofcourse by the other 2 OCs)?
"Executives" (and I'm not sure who that would even be in some communities or parts thereof) are free to be part of the CCG.
SO: I am basically referring to whoever are the signatories of the agreement. However if the CCG members would sign legal documents that makes them legally accountable for their actions and if the signatories of the community agreement are fine with that, then I will have no further issue.
Overall i am quite uncomfortable with the community agreement and I hope that this issue would be addressed amicably.
I don't think addressing issues "amicably" is in any way at odds with having a robust agreement.
SO: Well a robust agreement has different interpretation for various people. I have stated what the supposed robustness of the current write-up seem to me.
I do hope that the differences in how the agreement works will be addressed amicably, and I have every confidence they will be.
SO: I am as well, although I am somewhat concerned about how we are utilising legal working hours for all these. I am also concerned that the items we agreed to not include in the principles document seem to have made it back to the agreement. Maybe after the transition, we can further look at this kind of robustness being proposed but for now and in the interest of transition, I will say a lightweight process is desirable and such process should maintain the ability for each OC to transfer their stuff from IETF Trust whenever required. Regards 1. https://trustee.ietf.org/trust-agreement.html
As I have always said, the protocol is the source of all these and I don't see why we are overloading this particular part of the transition unnecessarily.
Regards Sent from my LG G4 Kindly excuse brevity and typos
On 28 Jul 2016 11:29 a.m., "Jonathan Robinson" <jrobinson@afilias.info> wrote:
All,
Please see attached for the revised drafts of the IPR License and the
Community Agreement.
Jonathan
From: Hofheimer, Joshua T. [mailto:jhofheimer@sidley.com] Sent: 27 July 2016 01:03 To: Client Committee <cwg-client@icann.org> Subject: [client com] IANA IPR License & Community Agreement Template
Greg and all,
Attached are the final CWG revised drafts of the IPR License and the
Community Agreement, clean and marked against the originals. Per my prior note Greg, are you going to post, or do you want Sidley to do so.
Cheers,
Josh
Joshua Hofheimer
Sidley Austin LLP
jhofheimer@sidley.com
(213) 896-6061 (LA direct)
(650) 565-7561 (Palo Alto direct)
(323) 708-2405 (cell)
This e-mail is sent by a law firm and may contain information that is privileged or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete the e-mail and any attachments and notify us immediately.
_______________________________________________ CWG-Stewardship mailing list CWG-Stewardship@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/cwg-stewardship
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participants (4)
-
Andrew Sullivan -
Greg Shatan -
Jonathan Robinson -
Seun Ojedeji