Dear Wolf, you're absolutely right. And matters of Geographic Regions are still being worked out at ICANN. I agree it is taking a lot more time than it should - but the process examining geographic regions is very complex since it also associates ccNSO, the ASO (Regional Internet Registries etc.) as well as the meetings team. Changing Geo Regions has far reaching implications. The proposals which we made in http://www.atlarge.icann.org/correspondence/correspondence-19dec11-en.htm appears to be the path which the Geo Regions Review WG is favouring. But these proposals have not been finalised nor ratified by the Board. So until then, we are under the *obligation* to follow the current ICANN Geographic Regions. Kind regards, Olivier On 23/05/2013 13:26, Wolf Ludwig wrote:
When you read the EURALO statement on the ICANN regions (not "ALAC regional model"!) carefully, Oksana, I sent to you (and the list) yesterday, you will realize that EURALO has a clear position on this by suggesting some elements of "self-determination" for special or border cases like Armenia and the like. Our advice was not considered at the time (early 2011) and ALAC cannot change the ICANN geo regions, just as they wish.
And AGAIN: ALAC's representation rules, specified in their Bylaws, had to reflect and respect the ICANN regions (besides other basic requirements) but were made to avoid abuses (I mentioned below) and make sense. I don't see and share your "causality" on this and consider these as different issues. And to my knowledge, these are not our key problems.
Best, Wolf
EMP wrote Wed, 22 May 2013 22:43:
Wolf, Roberto,
It is not about confusion. It is about problem solving.
I don't know how to contribute to improving of ALAC regional model (I know about working group, but not about any practical results).
ALAC's representation is the consequences of this problem. If I can not influence on the problem itself, but there is a chance to influence on consequences - why not to try?
O.
On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 9:59 PM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Wolf, I agree that they are separate issues. R.
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: euro-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:euro-discuss- bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di Wolf Ludwig Inviato: mercoledì 22 maggio 2013 23:58 A: Discussion for At-Large Europe Cc: 'At-Large Staff' Oggetto: Re: [EURO-Discuss] R: R: Draft Board Report (2012-13) for Lisbon GA Thanks Roberto for providing such a report! But as noted before (my reply to Oksana) the ICANN regional model with obvious inconsistencies (see Armenia etc.) and ALAC's representation rules are two different issues and shouldn't be confused.
Best, Wolf
Roberto Gaetano wrote Wed, 22 May 2013 08:55:
In the next couple of days I will circulate a short report of the meeting I had at ISOC Armenia, during which the issue of ICANN regions has been debated. I agree with Oksana, there are cases in which we have to change the rules, because there are good reasons for doing so. Re: the representative for multiple ALSes, I am just saying that I do not see such compelling reason. But if there is one (like the case for Armenia in EU rather than AP), I will change my mind. Cheers, R.
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: euro-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:euro-discuss- bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di EMP Inviato: mercoledì 22 maggio 2013 08:35 A: Discussion for At-Large Europe Cc: At-Large Staff Oggetto: Re: [EURO-Discuss] R: Draft Board Report (2012-13) for Lisbon GA
Dear all,
We will have today in our governmental agency round table on Cyrillic domain for Ukraine, so I was going to intervene into this discussion later, but Roberto's remark forced me to change my mind)
First of all, I have to say, that we are discussing now not "Board" report, but only "Chair" report - I saw it for the first time few minutes before teleconference call. This is extremely serious problem for me, and i will return to this issue later.
But regarding Roberto's comment, I would like to clear the problem just now. I agree with Wolf and Olivier that it will be very difficult to change the bylaws on this point. But besides the difficulty and complexity, what would be the *real* need for such change? Honestly, I believe that our aim should be to include more and more people, and electing the same representative as a leader for multiple ALSes, whether in the same or different region, is going in the opposite direction. We should favour more individuals to get leadership responsibilities in ALAC, not have the same set of people speaking in name of more ALSes. So, I am personally against this proposal, not for the complexity of the change, but because it will move us in the wrong direction.
<OP> Roberto, you are now in Armenia, and you yourself raised the issue regarding Armenia allocation to ICANN region. Armenia IS in Europe, and HAS TO BE in EURALO. I am absolutely sure, that all Armenian representatives are or will be extremely successful and highly appreciated in APRALO. But it is EURALO's gap that WE can not use their potential in full capacity. Yes, Siranush and Narine are nearly the most regular participants of our teleconference calls (unlike majority of other members of EURALO), but it is not enough.
So, when I am talking about changes in the rules, I mean such exceptional cases. I am really ready to raise this issue within ALAC, at least to ask, if this problem with Armenia is unique, or there are some other similar cases. If there are, I will insist on broad discussion of this issue.
I am fully understand, how Wolf is frustrated with my obstinacy with this issue, but I would like to remember, that two years ago, when I tried to raise visa issues for the first time, I was indisputably said (again by Wolf), that ICANN is absolutely wrong place to discuss this issue. Now visa issues are on ICANN agenda. (Of course, I understand, that it's not my achievement, but rather Canada merit)))). But maybe, this time I will also receive some otherworldly help?)))
I am not sure that I will be on-line until the late evening, but I will follow this discussion.
Best regards, Oksana
On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 8:55 PM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote: > Just on 1 point, my comment below: > >>> In response to Oksana's suggestion that ALS *representatives* >>> should be able to be an ALS *representative* in another region, >>> this is forbidden in the ALAC bylaws for a reason to make sure >>> there might not be a possibility of manipulation/capture. It is >>> 99.9% sure that this cannot change because any change to this >>> rule would need approval from the ALAC and approval from the >>> Board and I don't see this happening ever. >>> Of course, there is no rule against being a simple member of >>> several ALSes. I am a member of 3 ALSes in 3 different regions; >>> some are members of more than 3, in different or in the same >>> region, it doesn't matter. >> (WL) I explained this point in length and details already by >> making clear > that >> we can be *simple members* of different ALSes inside and outside a >> region BUT we can NOT be *representatives* of more than one ALS >> (inside or outside a region), as you confirmed Olivier. And I >> repeatedly noted that > we >> (at RALO level) cannot change this rule. IF anybody is still >> unhappy with > this >> binding ALAC rule, the person can try to convince ALAC about a >> respective change of their Bylaws! This was my very last comment >> on this point. > I agree with Wolf and Olivier that it will be very difficult to > change the bylaws on this point. > But besides the difficulty and complexity, what would be the *real* > need for > such change? > Honestly, I believe that our aim should be to include more and more people, > and electing the same representative as a leader for multiple > ALSes, whether > in the same or different region, is going in the opposite direction. > We should favour more individuals to get leadership > responsibilities in ALAC, not have the same set of people speaking in name of more ALSes. > So, I am personally against this proposal, not for the complexity > of the change, but because it will move us in the wrong direction. > Cheers, > R. > > > _______________________________________________ > EURO-Discuss mailing list > EURO-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org > https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/euro-discuss > > Homepage for the region: http://www.euralo.org _______________________________________________ EURO-Discuss mailing list EURO-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/euro-discuss
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