Dear all, since these mails seems to concern france@large, it would be a good thing if we could read them properly. jfc At 11:31 28/04/2008, Vittorio Bertola wrote:
Dear all,
EURALO and its board is asked for opinion and advice on new ALS applications in its region. In previous cases our verifications didn't show any difficulties or inconsistencies. Unfortunately in a recent one, the application from France @Large, we face some problems to come up with an unanimous recommendation. &WVFVBæBFWFÆVBfW&f6Fons of France@Large's application by the staff and some of the board members showed the following inconsistencies: §FRGRöb÷&væ6FöâæBG2ÖVÖ&W'6 is rather unclear. In H\XØ][ÛÜKÛÛYHÙe crucial questions (2 d-e) on the \XÚ\][ÛÛHand influence of individual Internet users, are answered with "No". In question 2 f-j it is stated that the applicant/ALS has "no organizations as members" and governmental bodies or quasi-governmental bodies as members" neither. That means that the organisational character of the applicant is not evident Y\\X@ted checks. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; UTF8ISO-CONVERTED=n; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-63B2E7C
I'm not sure I understand. According to the English application that was posted to the EURALO list almost two months ago, in 2 d-e they say the exact opposite of what you report, they say that decisions are taken by their members. And in 2 e-f they say that they have no organizational members and no governmental members, which is a good thing. That's why we are asking those questions - to be sure that they are not controlled by companies or governments.
*the membership development, *the exact activities and
*the financing/funding of the applicant.
Therefore the Co-Chair and other board members cannot support [ÙP\Ùx &\È\XØ][Ûunder consideration of the given information. If there is no objection from other board and EURALO Y[X\ÈKHwith any further reasons to be considered -- we would like ÈXÛÛ[Y[ÛX\Ý[ÈSP'H[HHUTSÈØ@rd member, but this is the first time I am asked an opinion about this application. Can you explain me how and by whom this application was discussed, to come to the recommendation aboveH[Y[X\H\XØ][ÛZ[ÈÜÝed to the EURALO list, but I don't remember any comment there. Was there any request to all Board members or to the EURALO list for comments? If not, why not? In any case, I am forwarding this message to the list so that everyone is informed and we can have an open discussion.
In general, we have to be very cautious about rejecting new applications, as it might look like a form of capture by the existing RALO members. I do not have a final opinion yet, but I have known Jefsey Morfin - the France@Large leader - for years, and even if he often has very controversial opinions, he exists and he has been participating to the At Large since the year 2000, which is more than can be said of several accredited ALSes. There should be a clear reason to reject this application, not just "we're not sure" or "we don't like him". That's a guarantee for a new Ombudsman case.
Please note that we need to know your opinion within the NEXT 2 DAYS.
Nothing has happened for two months, so why all this hurry now?
Regards, -- vb. Vittorio Bertola - vb [a] bertola.eu <-------- --------> finally with a new website at http://bertola.eu/ <--------
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At 13:22 28/04/2008, Cheryl Langdon-Orr wrote:
CLO
-----Original Message----- From: Vittorio Bertola [mailto:vb@bertola.eu] Sent: Monday, April 28, 2008 7:31 PM To: Wolf Ludwig Cc: Annette Mühlberg; Wolfgang Kleinwächter; Karen Banks; Jeanette Hofmann; Desiree Miloshevic; Sébastien Bachollet; William Drake; Veronica Cretu; Rudi Vansnick; Dr. Christoph Bruch; At-Large Staff; Cheryl Langdon-Orr; Discussion for At-Large Europe Subject: Re: Regional advice on France@Large application needed
Wolf Ludwig ha scritto:
Dear all,
EURALO and its board is asked for opinion and advice on new ALS applications in its region. In previous cases our verifications didn't show any difficulties or inconsistencies. Unfortunately in a recent one, the application from France @Large, we face some problems to come up with an unanimous recommendation.
\X]Y[]Z[Y\YXØ][ÛÈÙ[ÙP\Ùx s application by
the staff and some of the board members showed the following inconsistencies: §FRGe of organisation and its membership is rather unclear. In H\XØ][ÛÜKÛÛYHÙHÜXÚX[]Y\Ý[ÛÈ 2 d-e) on the \XÚ\][ÛÛH[[Y[ÙHÙ[@vidual Internet users, are answered with "No". In question 2 f-j it is stated that the applicant/ALS has âno organizations as members" and governmental bodies or quasi-governmental bodies as members" neither. That means that the organisational character of the applicant is not evident Y\\X]YÚXÚÜ'IÛHÝsure I understand. According to the English application that was posted to the EURALO list almost two months ago, in 2 d-e they say the exact opposite of what you report, they say that decisions are taken by their members. And in 2 e-f they say that they have no organizational members and no governmental members, which is a good thing. That's why we are asking those questions - to be sure that they are not controlled by companies or governments.
*the membership development, §FRW7B7FfFPs and
*the financing/funding of the applicant.
Therefore the Co-Chair and other board members cannot support [ÙP\Ùx &\È\XØ][Û[\ÛÛÚY\][ÛÀf the given information. If there is no objection from other board and EURALO Y[X\ÈKHÚ][H\\X\Àons to be considered -- we would like ÈXÛÛ[Y[Û@approval to ALAC.
I am a EURALO Board member, but this is the first time I am asked an opinion about this application. Can you explain me how and by whom this application was discussed, to come to the recommendation aboveH remember the application being posted to the EURALO list, but I don't remember any comment there. Was there any request to all Board members or to the EURALO list for comments? If not, why not? In any case, I am forwarding this message to the list so that everyone is informed and we can have an open discussion.
In general, we have to be very cautious about rejecting new applications, as it might look like a form of capture by the existing RALO members. I do not have a final opinion yet, but I have known Jefsey Morfin - the France@Large leader - for years, and even if he often has very controversial opinions, he exists and he has been participating to the At Large since the year 2000, which is more than can be said of several accredited ALSes. There should be a clear reason to reject this application, not just "we're not sure" or "we don't like him". That's a guarantee for a new Ombudsman case.
Please note that we need to know your opinion within the NEXT 2 DAYS.
Nothing has happened for two months, so why all this hurry now?
Regards, -- vb. Vittorio Bertola - vb [a] bertola.eu <-------- --------> finally with a new website at http://bertola.eu/ <--------
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At 13:50 28/04/2008, Wolf Ludwig wrote:
Vittorio Bertola wrote Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:31:
I'm not sure I understand. According to the English application that was posted to the EURALO list almost two months ago, in 2 d-e they say the ^XÝÜÜÚ]HÙwhat you report, they say that decisions are taken by their members. And in 2 e-f they say that they have no organizational members and no governmental members, which is a good thing. That's why ÙH\H\ÚÚ[ÈÜÙH]Y\Ý[Àns - to be sure that they are not controlled by companies or governments.
To my knowledge there are two versions of the application DD form: 1- the one dated March 10, 08 and sent the very day by Matthias and 2- the one dated March 27, 08 and sent on 4.04.08 by Matthias and I am referring to the indications in the later one.
(...) Can you explain me how and by whom this application was discussed, to come to the recommendation above?
The application was verified and discussed by several board and ALAC members (Jeanette, Annette, Veronica and myself) besides the staff repeatedly
I remember the application being posted to the EURALO list, but I don't [Y[X\[HÛÀmment there. Was there any request to all Board members or to the EURALO list for commentsYÝÚHÝÈ@s we found several inconsistencies in the application (compared with other applicants), we agreed with the staff to try to get more and detailed information before discussing it "in public". There have been additional contacts by the staff with Jefsey Morfin which unfortunately couldn't bring the clarifications we asked for.
(...) but I have known Jefsey Morfin - the France@Large leader - for YX\Ë[][YHÙ[\È\HÛÛÝ\ÚX[Ü@nions, he exists and >he has been participating to the At Large since the year 2000, which is >more than can be said of several accredited ALSes. There should be a clear reason to reject this application, not just "we're not sure"
I stated several reasons in my previous mail which are shared by all those 7 people (mentioned above) who checked the DD form, Website etc. repeatedly.
or "we don't like him".
Nobody ever said that "we don't like him". I know Jefsey Morfin just from the list so far, others know him much longer as you do. And our opinion on France@Large's application has nothing to do with personal prejudices.
Nothing has happened for two months, so why all this hurry now?
If you haven't realised anything for two months this does not necessarily mean that "nothing has happened" I find your conclusions rather offensive BTW and it perfectly fits to Juergen Habermap remarks about the "context of interest and perception"!
Regards, Wolf
comunica-ch phone +41 79 204 83 87 Skype: Wolf-Ludwig www.comunica-ch.net
http://blog.allmend.ch - Digitale Allmend
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