Trip to Caucasus
Hi all. I took the chance of a non-ICANN-related trip to Caucasus to contact the internet people, and specifically the At-Large structures, in the region. I was not on any official ICANN mission, but believe that it is worth anyway to write a short report of my contacts and personal considerations. I am addressing this to different mailing lists with separate messages, to avoid cross-posting. As reference to earlier discussions, you can see that the issue of ICANN regions has been extensively debated. Follow up contacts have shown that the ccNSO is also not happy about the current subdivision. As for the ASO, because of their special internal structure, they are affected by the regions only when it comes to Board Directors election. I had a very interesting meeting in Armenia, hosted by ISOC AM, with the Armenian ALSes. The main points that came out from the discussion were (to the best of my recollection): . The fact that the development of the internet in Armenia is consistently more advanced than in some neighboring countries (for instance, there are 3 ALSes) depends on a mix of elements, including the presence in Armenia of highly skilled ITC professionals as well as the vision that has identified since the early days the potential of the internet. This experience will be very difficult to replicate in other countries, at least in the short term. . Thanks to the early vision, Armenia has developed the "multi-stakeholder" concept also in the management of the internet at the national level. The ccTLD operator, the ISPs, the At-Large structures, commercial organizations, the government, are tightly collaborating, and there is also the initiative of a permanent IGF forum in Armenia. This has allowed to have very advanced positions in international fora, where all stakeholders are contributing, and we do not have the situation that can be seen in other countries, where the government is imposing its view. . Looking at the map of the world, and the location of the ALSes, it appears clearly that there is a wide area, namely the former Soviet Union states in central Asia, where there is no ALAC presence. This is felt to be tightly correlated with the fact that the position that these countries bring in the international debate are only depending on government opinions. In order to promote ICANN's multi-stakeholder approach, ALAC should make an outreach effort to these countries with the objective of gaining members. The general opinion is that this will be a difficult objective to achieve, but nevertheless it is strategically important. . The current location of Armenia in APRALO is creating serious problems. It should be noted that the Armenian ccTLD operator is a member of CENTR (the European ccTLD operators organization), ISPs are getting their addresses from RIPE (the European Regional addressing organization), but the Armenian ALSes are forced to be associated to APRALO. Considering the point above, i.e. the Armenian multi-stakeholder model that brings together different interests to cooperate at the national level, we have the strange situation that national domain names and IP addresses depend from Europe, while At-Large structures depend from a different region. Moreover, there are at the At-Large level cooperation projects ongoing that are coordinated by the European Union, and the location of Armenia in the AP ICANN region does make little sense, if any. For instance, if EURALO develops itself as the partner of the European Union for such European projects, it would be extremely impractical to have participating ALSes being in a different region. Further considerations have been the location of Armenia in Europe in a number of different international organizations. . Armenia, being part of the former Soviet Union, has kept a network of contacts at the technical level with other operators that are part of the Community of Independent States (CIS). One example is also the Regional Commonwealth in the field of communications (RCC - http://www.en.rcc.org.ru/index.php). This network is also important in the discussions related to internet governance and for the decisions in the ITU. . One question was raised, about what can ALAC do for the users. This is a key issue, because it is hard to motivate individuals and organizations to join ALAC if the only thing that they get is the opportunity to participate in policy development. Budget should be earmarked for initiatives that are useful for the internet users, like training. To this, I would like to add some personal considerations on the development of ICT, and specifically Internet, in Armenia. I have travelled extensively, in cities and in rural areas, and have been staying only once overnight in a place without internet connection, and only once in a place that had internet connection but not WiFi. Please note that I have never stayed in fancy hotels, but rather in hostels or guesthouses, always in inexpensive places. This gave me the feeling of the ubiquity of the internet in Armenia. Besides internet, I witnessed the diffusion of mobile communications. It seems to me that everybody has a mobile phone. I have seen not only bus drivers talking on their mobiles (a plague that I see very often in my country), but also shepherds in the countryside with mobile phones. Considering that the next frontier of the internet is mobile devices, this is promising. Unfortunately, I failed to ask confirmation at the meeting with ALSes, but my impression is that Armenia took advantage of the progress in technology in the years of their independence, and moved straight to new technologies, when telcos in Europe and US (for sure this was the situation in Italy 20 years ago) were resisting change in order to protect and further exploit their investments in previous technologies. Another simple example of how the internet is affecting common behavior is the police. This is the only country where I have seen police cars displaying instead of the simple "Police" word in the local language the url of the police web site: www.police.am. It might be the case in other countries as well, but I have noticed it here for the first time. Best regards, Roberto
Dear Roberto, Thank you very much for your extremely interesting and useful information! Armenian experience really deserves special interest from ICANN! Last month we organized round table in our Ukrainian ccTLD, and invited Grigory Sagnyan from Armenia for remote participation. He told us a lot about Armenian experience, and in Ukraine there is great interest for it. When we hear about Finnish experience, for example, it seems to us absolutely unachievable. But Armenia has a lot in common with us, and the gap in Internet Governance issues are more obvious. And namely Armenian ISOC Chapter (Igor first of all) is much more easier to understand our problems with our ISOC Chapter formation, than even Jacek. And it's true not only for Ukraine, but for a lot of other post-Soviet countries. Especially regarding Internet and media literacy. We just discussed this issue with our national regulator on telecommunications, and we really need to work closer with our Armenian colleagues. Especially on cybersecurity issues. Just now we are working on inviting Grigory to visit Kiev in person. I will discuss this issue next week with our Internews office, but it would be very important, if ICANN will be also engaged in it. Grigory's role in Dubai and in RCC is difficult to overestimate, he has personal contacts with our top officials, and he really has a great potential to influence on Ukrainian position in this sphere. Roberto, it was extremely important for me to see your understanding of problems with geographical regions. We really have to do anything with it. Once again - thank you very much! Best regards, Oksana On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
I took the chance of a non-ICANN-related trip to Caucasus to contact the internet people, and specifically the At-Large structures, in the region.
I was not on any official ICANN mission, but believe that it is worth anyway to write a short report of my contacts and personal considerations.
I am addressing this to different mailing lists with separate messages, to avoid cross-posting.
As reference to earlier discussions, you can see that the issue of ICANN regions has been extensively debated. Follow up contacts have shown that the ccNSO is also not happy about the current subdivision. As for the ASO, because of their special internal structure, they are affected by the regions only when it comes to Board Directors election.
I had a very interesting meeting in Armenia, hosted by ISOC AM, with the Armenian ALSes.
The main points that came out from the discussion were (to the best of my recollection):
. The fact that the development of the internet in Armenia is consistently more advanced than in some neighboring countries (for instance, there are 3 ALSes) depends on a mix of elements, including the presence in Armenia of highly skilled ITC professionals as well as the vision that has identified since the early days the potential of the internet. This experience will be very difficult to replicate in other countries, at least in the short term.
. Thanks to the early vision, Armenia has developed the "multi-stakeholder" concept also in the management of the internet at the national level. The ccTLD operator, the ISPs, the At-Large structures, commercial organizations, the government, are tightly collaborating, and there is also the initiative of a permanent IGF forum in Armenia. This has allowed to have very advanced positions in international fora, where all stakeholders are contributing, and we do not have the situation that can be seen in other countries, where the government is imposing its view.
. Looking at the map of the world, and the location of the ALSes, it appears clearly that there is a wide area, namely the former Soviet Union states in central Asia, where there is no ALAC presence. This is felt to be tightly correlated with the fact that the position that these countries bring in the international debate are only depending on government opinions. In order to promote ICANN's multi-stakeholder approach, ALAC should make an outreach effort to these countries with the objective of gaining members. The general opinion is that this will be a difficult objective to achieve, but nevertheless it is strategically important.
. The current location of Armenia in APRALO is creating serious problems. It should be noted that the Armenian ccTLD operator is a member of CENTR (the European ccTLD operators organization), ISPs are getting their addresses from RIPE (the European Regional addressing organization), but the Armenian ALSes are forced to be associated to APRALO. Considering the point above, i.e. the Armenian multi-stakeholder model that brings together different interests to cooperate at the national level, we have the strange situation that national domain names and IP addresses depend from Europe, while At-Large structures depend from a different region. Moreover, there are at the At-Large level cooperation projects ongoing that are coordinated by the European Union, and the location of Armenia in the AP ICANN region does make little sense, if any. For instance, if EURALO develops itself as the partner of the European Union for such European projects, it would be extremely impractical to have participating ALSes being in a different region. Further considerations have been the location of Armenia in Europe in a number of different international organizations.
. Armenia, being part of the former Soviet Union, has kept a network of contacts at the technical level with other operators that are part of the Community of Independent States (CIS). One example is also the Regional Commonwealth in the field of communications (RCC - http://www.en.rcc.org.ru/index.php). This network is also important in the discussions related to internet governance and for the decisions in the ITU.
. One question was raised, about what can ALAC do for the users. This is a key issue, because it is hard to motivate individuals and organizations to join ALAC if the only thing that they get is the opportunity to participate in policy development. Budget should be earmarked for initiatives that are useful for the internet users, like training.
To this, I would like to add some personal considerations on the development of ICT, and specifically Internet, in Armenia.
I have travelled extensively, in cities and in rural areas, and have been staying only once overnight in a place without internet connection, and only once in a place that had internet connection but not WiFi. Please note that I have never stayed in fancy hotels, but rather in hostels or guesthouses, always in inexpensive places. This gave me the feeling of the ubiquity of the internet in Armenia.
Besides internet, I witnessed the diffusion of mobile communications. It seems to me that everybody has a mobile phone. I have seen not only bus drivers talking on their mobiles (a plague that I see very often in my country), but also shepherds in the countryside with mobile phones. Considering that the next frontier of the internet is mobile devices, this is promising.
Unfortunately, I failed to ask confirmation at the meeting with ALSes, but my impression is that Armenia took advantage of the progress in technology in the years of their independence, and moved straight to new technologies, when telcos in Europe and US (for sure this was the situation in Italy 20 years ago) were resisting change in order to protect and further exploit their investments in previous technologies.
Another simple example of how the internet is affecting common behavior is the police. This is the only country where I have seen police cars displaying instead of the simple "Police" word in the local language the url of the police web site: www.police.am. It might be the case in other countries as well, but I have noticed it here for the first time.
Best regards,
Roberto
_______________________________________________ EURO-Discuss mailing list EURO-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/euro-discuss
Homepage for the region: http://www.euralo.org
Oksana , just to make sure - we're talking a out engaging him in the ALAC work, not in the governmental one. If he can do both - great. As for Icann, web are working with all stakeholders in the region, so Grigori has our support. On Thursday, May 23, 2013, EMP wrote:
Dear Roberto,
Thank you very much for your extremely interesting and useful information! Armenian experience really deserves special interest from ICANN!
Last month we organized round table in our Ukrainian ccTLD, and invited Grigory Sagnyan from Armenia for remote participation. He told us a lot about Armenian experience, and in Ukraine there is great interest for it. When we hear about Finnish experience, for example, it seems to us absolutely unachievable. But Armenia has a lot in common with us, and the gap in Internet Governance issues are more obvious. And namely Armenian ISOC Chapter (Igor first of all) is much more easier to understand our problems with our ISOC Chapter formation, than even Jacek.
And it's true not only for Ukraine, but for a lot of other post-Soviet countries. Especially regarding Internet and media literacy. We just discussed this issue with our national regulator on telecommunications, and we really need to work closer with our Armenian colleagues. Especially on cybersecurity issues.
Just now we are working on inviting Grigory to visit Kiev in person. I will discuss this issue next week with our Internews office, but it would be very important, if ICANN will be also engaged in it. Grigory's role in Dubai and in RCC is difficult to overestimate, he has personal contacts with our top officials, and he really has a great potential to influence on Ukrainian position in this sphere.
Roberto, it was extremely important for me to see your understanding of problems with geographical regions. We really have to do anything with it.
Once again - thank you very much!
Best regards, Oksana
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
I took the chance of a non-ICANN-related trip to Caucasus to contact the internet people, and specifically the At-Large structures, in the region.
I was not on any official ICANN mission, but believe that it is worth anyway to write a short report of my contacts and personal considerations.
I am addressing this to different mailing lists with separate messages, to avoid cross-posting.
As reference to earlier discussions, you can see that the issue of ICANN regions has been extensively debated. Follow up contacts have shown that the ccNSO is also not happy about the current subdivision. As for the ASO, because of their special internal structure, they are affected by the regions only when it comes to Board Directors election.
I had a very interesting meeting in Armenia, hosted by ISOC AM, with the Armenian ALSes.
The main points that came out from the discussion were (to the best of my recollection):
. The fact that the development of the internet in Armenia is consistently more advanced than in some neighboring countries (for instance, there are 3 ALSes) depends on a mix of elements, including the presence in Armenia of highly skilled ITC professionals as well as the vision that has identified since the early days the potential of the internet. This experience will be very difficult to replicate in other countries, at least in the short term.
. Thanks to the early vision, Armenia has developed the "multi-stakeholder" concept also in the management of the internet at the national level. The ccTLD operator, the ISPs, the At-Large structures, commercial organizations, the government, are tightly collaborating, and there is also the initiative of a permanent IGF forum in Armenia. This has allowed to have very advanced positions in international fora, where all stakeholders are contributing, and we do not have the situation that can be seen in other countries, where the government is imposing its view.
. Looking at the map of the world, and the location of the ALSes, it appears clearly that there is a wide area, namely the former Soviet Union states in central Asia, where there is no ALAC presence. This is felt to be tightly correlated with the fact that the position that these countries bring in the international debate are only depending on government opinions. In order to promote ICANN's multi-stakeholder approach, ALAC should make an outreach effort to these countries with the objective of gaining members. The general opinion is that this will be a difficult objective to achieve, but nevertheless it is strategically important.
. The current location of Armenia in APRALO is creating serious problems. It should be noted that the Armenian ccTLD operator is a member of CENTR (the European ccTLD operators organization), ISPs are getting their addresses from RIPE (the European Regional addressing organization), but the Armenian ALSes are forced to be associated to APRALO. Considering the point above, i.e. the Armenian multi-stakeholder model that brings together different interests to cooperate at the national level, we have the strange situation that national domain names and IP addresses depend from Europe, while At-Large structures depend from a different region. Moreover, there are at the At-Large level cooperation projects ongoing that are coordinated by the European Union, and the location of Armenia in the AP ICANN region does make little sense, if any. For instance, if EURALO develops itself as the partner of the European Union for such European projects, it would be extremely impractical to have participating ALSes being in a different region. Further considerations have been the location of Armenia in Europe in a number of different international organizations.
. Armenia, being part of the former Soviet Union, has kept a network of contacts at the technical level with other operators that are part of
-- Best, Veni http://veni.com https://facebook.com/venimarkovski https://twitter.com/veni *** The opinions expressed above are those of the author, not of any organizations, associated with or related to him in any given way. *** == Sent from my phone, so any spelling mistakes are caused by the touchscreen keyboard. That's a nice excuse, isn't it;-)
Veni, does it mean that ICANN can cover at least his travel expences? On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Veni Markovski <veni@veni.com> wrote:
Oksana , just to make sure - we're talking a out engaging him in the ALAC work, not in the governmental one. If he can do both - great. As for Icann, web are working with all stakeholders in the region, so Grigori has our support.
On Thursday, May 23, 2013, EMP wrote:
Dear Roberto,
Thank you very much for your extremely interesting and useful information! Armenian experience really deserves special interest from ICANN!
Last month we organized round table in our Ukrainian ccTLD, and invited Grigory Sagnyan from Armenia for remote participation. He told us a lot about Armenian experience, and in Ukraine there is great interest for it. When we hear about Finnish experience, for example, it seems to us absolutely unachievable. But Armenia has a lot in common with us, and the gap in Internet Governance issues are more obvious. And namely Armenian ISOC Chapter (Igor first of all) is much more easier to understand our problems with our ISOC Chapter formation, than even Jacek.
And it's true not only for Ukraine, but for a lot of other post-Soviet countries. Especially regarding Internet and media literacy. We just discussed this issue with our national regulator on telecommunications, and we really need to work closer with our Armenian colleagues. Especially on cybersecurity issues.
Just now we are working on inviting Grigory to visit Kiev in person. I will discuss this issue next week with our Internews office, but it would be very important, if ICANN will be also engaged in it. Grigory's role in Dubai and in RCC is difficult to overestimate, he has personal contacts with our top officials, and he really has a great potential to influence on Ukrainian position in this sphere.
Roberto, it was extremely important for me to see your understanding of problems with geographical regions. We really have to do anything with it.
Once again - thank you very much!
Best regards, Oksana
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
I took the chance of a non-ICANN-related trip to Caucasus to contact the internet people, and specifically the At-Large structures, in the region.
I was not on any official ICANN mission, but believe that it is worth anyway to write a short report of my contacts and personal considerations.
I am addressing this to different mailing lists with separate messages, to avoid cross-posting.
As reference to earlier discussions, you can see that the issue of ICANN regions has been extensively debated. Follow up contacts have shown that the ccNSO is also not happy about the current subdivision. As for the ASO, because of their special internal structure, they are affected by the regions only when it comes to Board Directors election.
I had a very interesting meeting in Armenia, hosted by ISOC AM, with the Armenian ALSes.
The main points that came out from the discussion were (to the best of my recollection):
. The fact that the development of the internet in Armenia is consistently more advanced than in some neighboring countries (for instance, there are 3 ALSes) depends on a mix of elements, including the presence in Armenia of highly skilled ITC professionals as well as the vision that has identified since the early days the potential of the internet. This experience will be very difficult to replicate in other countries, at least in the short term.
. Thanks to the early vision, Armenia has developed the "multi-stakeholder" concept also in the management of the internet at the national level. The ccTLD operator, the ISPs, the At-Large structures, commercial organizations, the government, are tightly collaborating, and there is also the initiative of a permanent IGF forum in Armenia. This has allowed to have very advanced positions in international fora, where all stakeholders are contributing, and we do not have the situation that can be seen in other countries, where the government is imposing its view.
. Looking at the map of the world, and the location of the ALSes, it appears clearly that there is a wide area, namely the former Soviet Union states in central Asia, where there is no ALAC presence. This is felt to be tightly correlated with the fact that the position that these countries bring in the international debate are only depending on government opinions. In order to promote ICANN's multi-stakeholder approach, ALAC should make an outreach effort to these countries with the objective of gaining members. The general opinion is that this will be a difficult objective to achieve, but nevertheless it is strategically important.
. The current location of Armenia in APRALO is creating serious problems. It should be noted that the Armenian ccTLD operator is a member of CENTR (the European ccTLD operators organization), ISPs are getting their addresses from RIPE (the European Regional addressing organization), but the Armenian ALSes are forced to be associated to APRALO. Considering the point above, i.e. the Armenian multi-stakeholder model that brings together different interests to cooperate at the national level, we have the strange situation that national domain names and IP addresses depend from Europe, while At-Large structures depend from a different region. Moreover, there are at the At-Large level cooperation projects ongoing that are coordinated by the European Union, and the location of Armenia in the AP ICANN region does make little sense, if any. For instance, if EURALO develops itself as the partner of the European Union for such European projects, it would be extremely impractical to have participating ALSes being in a different region. Further considerations have been the location of Armenia in Europe in a number of different international organizations.
. Armenia, being part of the former Soviet Union, has kept a network of contacts at the technical level with other operators that are part of
-- Best, Veni http://veni.com https://facebook.com/venimarkovski https://twitter.com/veni
*** The opinions expressed above are those of the author, not of any organizations, associated with or related to him in any given way. ***
== Sent from my phone, so any spelling mistakes are caused by the touchscreen keyboard. That's a nice excuse, isn't it;-) _______________________________________________ EURO-Discuss mailing list EURO-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/euro-discuss
Homepage for the region: http://www.euralo.org
Not really. Support doesn't mean always funding. On Thursday, May 23, 2013, EMP wrote:
Veni, does it mean that ICANN can cover at least his travel expences?
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Veni Markovski <veni@veni.com> wrote:
Oksana , just to make sure - we're talking a out engaging him in the ALAC work, not in the governmental one. If he can do both - great. As for Icann, web are working with all stakeholders in the region, so Grigori has our support.
On Thursday, May 23, 2013, EMP wrote:
Dear Roberto,
Thank you very much for your extremely interesting and useful information! Armenian experience really deserves special interest from ICANN!
Last month we organized round table in our Ukrainian ccTLD, and invited Grigory Sagnyan from Armenia for remote participation. He told us a lot about Armenian experience, and in Ukraine there is great interest for it. When we hear about Finnish experience, for example, it seems to us absolutely unachievable. But Armenia has a lot in common with us, and the gap in Internet Governance issues are more obvious. And namely Armenian ISOC Chapter (Igor first of all) is much more easier to understand our problems with our ISOC Chapter formation, than even Jacek.
And it's true not only for Ukraine, but for a lot of other post-Soviet countries. Especially regarding Internet and media literacy. We just discussed this issue with our national regulator on telecommunications, and we really need to work closer with our Armenian colleagues. Especially on cybersecurity issues.
Just now we are working on inviting Grigory to visit Kiev in person. I will discuss this issue next week with our Internews office, but it would be very important, if ICANN will be also engaged in it. Grigory's role in Dubai and in RCC is difficult to overestimate, he has personal contacts with our top officials, and he really has a great potential to influence on Ukrainian position in this sphere.
Roberto, it was extremely important for me to see your understanding of problems with geographical regions. We really have to do anything with it.
Once again - thank you very much!
Best regards, Oksana
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
I took the chance of a non-ICANN-related trip to Caucasus to contact the internet people, and specifically the At-Large structures, in the region.
I was not on any official ICANN mission, but believe that it is worth anyway to write a short report of my contacts and personal considerations.
I am addressing this to different mailing lists with separate messages, to avoid cross-posting.
As reference to earlier discussions, you can see that the issue of ICANN regions has been extensively debated. Follow up contacts have shown that the ccNSO is also not happy about the current subdivision. As for the ASO, because of their special internal structure, they are affected by the regions only when it comes to Board Directors election.
I had a very interesting meeting in Armenia, hosted by ISOC AM, with the Armenian ALSes.
The main points that came out from the discussion were (to the best of my recollection):
. The fact that the development of the internet in Armenia is consistently more advanced than in some neighboring countries (for instance, there are 3 ALSes) depends on a mix of elements, including the presence in Armenia of highly skilled ITC professionals as well as the vision that has identified since the early days the potential of the internet. This
EURO-Discuss mailing list EURO-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org <javascript:;> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/euro-discuss
Homepage for the region: http://www.euralo.org
_______________________________________________ EURO-Discuss mailing list EURO-Discuss@atlarge-lists.icann.org <javascript:;> https://atlarge-lists.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/euro-discuss
Homepage for the region: http://www.euralo.org
-- Best, Veni http://veni.com https://facebook.com/venimarkovski https://twitter.com/veni *** The opinions expressed above are those of the author, not of any organizations, associated with or related to him in any given way. *** == Sent from my phone, so any spelling mistakes are caused by the touchscreen keyboard. That's a nice excuse, isn't it;-)
Dear Oksana, I have also copied my report to the Outreach SC, with the recommendation that we consider outreach in the former URSS Republics a priority. I believe that your initiative in Kiev, and Grigori's participation, can be very important also in helping going in this direction. Cheers, R.
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: euro-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:euro-discuss- bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di EMP Inviato: venerdì 24 maggio 2013 00:02 A: Discussion for At-Large Europe Oggetto: Re: [EURO-Discuss] Trip to Caucasus
Dear Roberto,
Thank you very much for your extremely interesting and useful information! Armenian experience really deserves special interest from ICANN!
Last month we organized round table in our Ukrainian ccTLD, and invited Grigory Sagnyan from Armenia for remote participation. He told us a lot about Armenian experience, and in Ukraine there is great interest for it. When we hear about Finnish experience, for example, it seems to us absolutely unachievable. But Armenia has a lot in common with us, and the gap in Internet Governance issues are more obvious. And namely Armenian ISOC Chapter (Igor first of all) is much more easier to understand our problems with our ISOC Chapter formation, than even Jacek.
And it's true not only for Ukraine, but for a lot of other post-Soviet countries. Especially regarding Internet and media literacy. We just discussed this issue with our national regulator on telecommunications, and we really need to work closer with our Armenian colleagues. Especially on cybersecurity issues.
Just now we are working on inviting Grigory to visit Kiev in person. I will discuss this issue next week with our Internews office, but it would be very important, if ICANN will be also engaged in it. Grigory's role in Dubai and in RCC is difficult to overestimate, he has personal contacts with our top officials, and he really has a great potential to influence on Ukrainian position in this sphere.
Roberto, it was extremely important for me to see your understanding of problems with geographical regions. We really have to do anything with it.
Once again - thank you very much!
Best regards, Oksana
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
I took the chance of a non-ICANN-related trip to Caucasus to contact the internet people, and specifically the At-Large structures, in the region.
I was not on any official ICANN mission, but believe that it is worth anyway to write a short report of my contacts and personal considerations.
I am addressing this to different mailing lists with separate messages, to avoid cross-posting.
As reference to earlier discussions, you can see that the issue of ICANN regions has been extensively debated. Follow up contacts have shown that the ccNSO is also not happy about the current subdivision. As for the ASO, because of their special internal structure, they are affected by the regions only when it comes to Board Directors election.
I had a very interesting meeting in Armenia, hosted by ISOC AM, with the Armenian ALSes.
The main points that came out from the discussion were (to the best of my recollection):
. The fact that the development of the internet in Armenia is consistently more advanced than in some neighboring countries (for instance, there are 3 ALSes) depends on a mix of elements, including the presence in Armenia of highly skilled ITC professionals as well as the vision that has identified since the early days the potential of the internet. This experience will be very difficult to replicate in other countries, at least in the short term.
. Thanks to the early vision, Armenia has developed the "multi-stakeholder" concept also in the management of the internet at the national level. The ccTLD operator, the ISPs, the At-Large structures, commercial organizations, the government, are tightly collaborating, and there is also the initiative of a permanent IGF forum in Armenia. This has allowed to have very advanced positions in international fora, where all stakeholders are contributing, and we do not have the situation that can be seen in other countries, where the government is imposing its view.
. Looking at the map of the world, and the location of the ALSes, it appears clearly that there is a wide area, namely the former Soviet Union states in central Asia, where there is no ALAC presence. This is felt to be tightly correlated with the fact that the position that these countries bring in the international debate are only depending on government opinions. In order to promote ICANN's multi-stakeholder approach, ALAC should make an outreach effort to these countries with the objective of gaining members. The general opinion is that this will be a difficult objective to achieve, but nevertheless it is strategically important.
. The current location of Armenia in APRALO is creating serious problems. It should be noted that the Armenian ccTLD operator is a member of CENTR (the European ccTLD operators organization), ISPs are getting their addresses from RIPE (the European Regional addressing organization), but the Armenian ALSes are forced to be associated to APRALO. Considering the point above, i.e. the Armenian multi-stakeholder model that brings together different interests to cooperate at the national level, we have the strange situation that national domain names and IP addresses depend from Europe, while At-Large structures depend from a different region. Moreover, there are at the At-Large level cooperation projects ongoing that are coordinated by the European Union, and the location of Armenia in the AP ICANN region does make little sense, if any. For instance, if EURALO develops itself as the partner of the European Union for such European projects, it would be extremely impractical to have participating ALSes being in a different region. Further considerations have been the location of Armenia in Europe in a number of different international organizations.
. Armenia, being part of the former Soviet Union, has kept a network of contacts at the technical level with other operators that are part of the Community of Independent States (CIS). One example is also the Regional Commonwealth in the field of communications (RCC - http://www.en.rcc.org.ru/index.php). This network is also important in the discussions related to internet governance and for the decisions in the ITU.
. One question was raised, about what can ALAC do for the users. This is a key issue, because it is hard to motivate individuals and organizations to join ALAC if the only thing that they get is the opportunity to participate in policy development. Budget should be earmarked for initiatives that are useful for the internet users, like training.
To this, I would like to add some personal considerations on the development of ICT, and specifically Internet, in Armenia.
I have travelled extensively, in cities and in rural areas, and have been staying only once overnight in a place without internet connection, and only once in a place that had internet connection but not WiFi. Please note that I have never stayed in fancy hotels, but rather in hostels or guesthouses, always in inexpensive places. This gave me the feeling of the ubiquity of the internet in Armenia.
Besides internet, I witnessed the diffusion of mobile communications. It seems to me that everybody has a mobile phone. I have seen not only bus drivers talking on their mobiles (a plague that I see very often in my country), but also shepherds in the countryside with mobile phones. Considering that the next frontier of the internet is mobile devices, this is promising.
Unfortunately, I failed to ask confirmation at the meeting with ALSes, but my impression is that Armenia took advantage of the progress in technology in the years of their independence, and moved straight to new technologies, when telcos in Europe and US (for sure this was the situation in Italy 20 years ago) were resisting change in order to protect and further exploit their investments in previous technologies.
Another simple example of how the internet is affecting common behavior is the police. This is the only country where I have seen police cars displaying instead of the simple "Police" word in the local language the url of the police web site: www.police.am. It might be the case in other countries as well, but I have noticed it here for the first time.
Best regards,
Roberto
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Dear Roberto, Special thanks for sending report to the Outreach SC - I hope it will help a lot in drawing attention to our issue. Dear Veronica, I highly appreciate your contribution regarding "'mobile governance' concept" and especially regarding "Mobile ID initiative". You know, that majority of information on Ukraine's participation in "Open Government Partnership" I receive from you)) In Ukraine we also have 100+ mobile penetration rate, but our Internet penetration rate is up to 40 %(. And now we are trying to analyze how to repeat the successful story of "mobilization" of our country for "Internetization" of it. And there is one more aspect regarding this issue - during Russian IGF in Moscow Wolfgang said, that divide in Dubai was rather between "new "new economy" and "old "new economy". It is very true for Ukraine, and it is extremely important for us to understand the role of mobile operators in this disposal. In this aspect it is extremely important to have all calculations and data on this issue. Again in Moscow during RIGF Leonid Todorov repeatedly asked about economical consequences of new ITRs. His questions were not answered (the same for mine in Ukraine). This is very important direction for future work, and it would be very important to involve in it At-Large/ICANN and OGP. Even this very short discussion shows, that there ARE many Russian-speaking experts on IG (unfortunately, I used to hear that there is nearly no such experts at all). Roberto's report and especially the discussion of it is extremely important tool to collect all interested in this issue. I am a member of Capacity Building WG, and we try to do our best to help separate ALSes (even from different RALOs))) to build horizontal ties between themselves - based on their spheres of expertize, languages, cultures (first of all political) and so on. To the same purpose we launched our project InfoZipper Network - as a platform for Russian-speaking experts on IG. We really need as much support and contributions (from At-Large especially), as possible. Dear Veni, I know, that we can always rely on your support) Best regards, Oksana On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 8:48 PM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Dear Oksana, I have also copied my report to the Outreach SC, with the recommendation that we consider outreach in the former URSS Republics a priority. I believe that your initiative in Kiev, and Grigori's participation, can be very important also in helping going in this direction. Cheers, R.
-----Messaggio originale----- Da: euro-discuss-bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org [mailto:euro-discuss- bounces@atlarge-lists.icann.org] Per conto di EMP Inviato: venerdì 24 maggio 2013 00:02 A: Discussion for At-Large Europe Oggetto: Re: [EURO-Discuss] Trip to Caucasus
Dear Roberto,
Thank you very much for your extremely interesting and useful information! Armenian experience really deserves special interest from ICANN!
Last month we organized round table in our Ukrainian ccTLD, and invited Grigory Sagnyan from Armenia for remote participation. He told us a lot about Armenian experience, and in Ukraine there is great interest for it. When we hear about Finnish experience, for example, it seems to us absolutely unachievable. But Armenia has a lot in common with us, and the gap in Internet Governance issues are more obvious. And namely Armenian ISOC Chapter (Igor first of all) is much more easier to understand our problems with our ISOC Chapter formation, than even Jacek.
And it's true not only for Ukraine, but for a lot of other post-Soviet countries. Especially regarding Internet and media literacy. We just discussed this issue with our national regulator on telecommunications, and we really need to work closer with our Armenian colleagues. Especially on cybersecurity issues.
Just now we are working on inviting Grigory to visit Kiev in person. I will discuss this issue next week with our Internews office, but it would be very important, if ICANN will be also engaged in it. Grigory's role in Dubai and in RCC is difficult to overestimate, he has personal contacts with our top officials, and he really has a great potential to influence on Ukrainian position in this sphere.
Roberto, it was extremely important for me to see your understanding of problems with geographical regions. We really have to do anything with it.
Once again - thank you very much!
Best regards, Oksana
On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
I took the chance of a non-ICANN-related trip to Caucasus to contact the internet people, and specifically the At-Large structures, in the region.
I was not on any official ICANN mission, but believe that it is worth anyway to write a short report of my contacts and personal considerations.
I am addressing this to different mailing lists with separate messages, to avoid cross-posting.
As reference to earlier discussions, you can see that the issue of ICANN regions has been extensively debated. Follow up contacts have shown that the ccNSO is also not happy about the current subdivision. As for the ASO, because of their special internal structure, they are affected by the regions only when it comes to Board Directors election.
I had a very interesting meeting in Armenia, hosted by ISOC AM, with the Armenian ALSes.
The main points that came out from the discussion were (to the best of my recollection):
. The fact that the development of the internet in Armenia is consistently more advanced than in some neighboring countries (for instance, there are 3 ALSes) depends on a mix of elements, including the presence in Armenia of highly skilled ITC professionals as well as the vision that has identified since the early days the potential of the internet. This experience will be very difficult to replicate in other countries, at least in the short term.
. Thanks to the early vision, Armenia has developed the "multi-stakeholder" concept also in the management of the internet at the national level. The ccTLD operator, the ISPs, the At-Large structures, commercial organizations, the government, are tightly collaborating, and there is also the initiative of a permanent IGF forum in Armenia. This has allowed to have very advanced positions in international fora, where all stakeholders are contributing, and we do not have the situation that can be seen in other countries, where the government is imposing its view.
. Looking at the map of the world, and the location of the ALSes, it appears clearly that there is a wide area, namely the former Soviet Union states in central Asia, where there is no ALAC presence. This is felt to be tightly correlated with the fact that the position that these countries bring in the international debate are only depending on government opinions. In order to promote ICANN's multi-stakeholder approach, ALAC should make an outreach effort to these countries with the objective of gaining members. The general opinion is that this will be a difficult objective to achieve, but nevertheless it is strategically important.
. The current location of Armenia in APRALO is creating serious problems. It should be noted that the Armenian ccTLD operator is a member of CENTR (the European ccTLD operators organization), ISPs are getting their addresses from RIPE (the European Regional addressing organization), but the Armenian ALSes are forced to be associated to APRALO. Considering the point above, i.e. the Armenian multi-stakeholder model that brings together different interests to cooperate at the national level, we have the strange situation that national domain names and IP addresses depend from Europe, while At-Large structures depend from a different region. Moreover, there are at the At-Large level cooperation projects ongoing that are coordinated by the European Union, and the location of Armenia in the AP ICANN region does make little sense, if any. For instance, if EURALO develops itself as the partner of the European Union for such European projects, it would be extremely impractical to have participating ALSes being in a different region. Further considerations have been the location of Armenia in Europe in a number of different international organizations.
. Armenia, being part of the former Soviet Union, has kept a network of contacts at the technical level with other operators that are part of the Community of Independent States (CIS). One example is also the Regional Commonwealth in the field of communications (RCC - http://www.en.rcc.org.ru/index.php). This network is also important in the discussions related to internet governance and for the decisions in the ITU.
. One question was raised, about what can ALAC do for the users. This is a key issue, because it is hard to motivate individuals and organizations to join ALAC if the only thing that they get is the opportunity to participate in policy development. Budget should be earmarked for initiatives that are useful for the internet users, like training.
To this, I would like to add some personal considerations on the development of ICT, and specifically Internet, in Armenia.
I have travelled extensively, in cities and in rural areas, and have been staying only once overnight in a place without internet connection, and only once in a place that had internet connection but not WiFi. Please note that I have never stayed in fancy hotels, but rather in hostels or guesthouses, always in inexpensive places. This gave me the feeling of the ubiquity of the internet in Armenia.
Besides internet, I witnessed the diffusion of mobile communications. It seems to me that everybody has a mobile phone. I have seen not only bus drivers talking on their mobiles (a plague that I see very often in my country), but also shepherds in the countryside with mobile phones. Considering that the next frontier of the internet is mobile devices, this is promising.
Unfortunately, I failed to ask confirmation at the meeting with ALSes, but my impression is that Armenia took advantage of the progress in technology in the years of their independence, and moved straight to new technologies, when telcos in Europe and US (for sure this was the situation in Italy 20 years ago) were resisting change in order to protect and further exploit their investments in previous technologies.
Another simple example of how the internet is affecting common behavior is the police. This is the only country where I have seen police cars displaying instead of the simple "Police" word in the local language the url of the police web site: www.police.am. It might be the case in other countries as well, but I have noticed it here for the first time.
Best regards,
Roberto
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Dear Roberto, greetings and thanks a lot for sharing these extremely valuable reflections! I wanted to catch up and build on a bit on few points/observations that you've made based on Armenian experience: *Mobile communications* are indeed taking over and this is a promising tool. In Moldova we have 100+ mobile penetration rate, and this is emerging in several developing countries. During the MAG meeting this week in Geneva we tacked a bit on the 'mobile governance' concept - smth that has been brought up as a proposal for the IGF in Bali. So, it is worth looking at ways to support countries in our region undestand how they can use the mobile for several other purposes than simple communication. Moldova, joined recently the Mobile ID initiative, and we are one of the 7 or 8 countries in the world who have that. Providing/sharing on diverse use of mobile, including on ways to engaging citizens in decision-making processes, mobile apps for 'voting' on local decision-making, etc. is very timely. It is also due to the recently launched international platform (18 months ago), Open Government Partnership, OGP, with 57 Governments opting-in. Armenia, Azerbajan, Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine have also opted in. And with this, Governments commited, among others, to harness the potential of the ICTs to bring citizens closer to the government and governance processes and vice versa. I am on the Open Government Partnership Steering Committee and can get back with more details if needed. It might be relevant for ALAC to start getting 'out' of its 'space' and start partnering with these existent initiatives that promote ICTs/new technolgies and share about them to ALSs, users, communities of practitioners, etc ... *And I want to conclude on this note*: • The results of the analyses suggest that the more time individuals spend on the Internet, the lower their degree of trust in government and lower level of citizen compliance. Tobin Im, Wonhyuk Cho, Greg Porumbescu and Jungho Park, 2010 • However, same results also suggest that such negative effects of the Internet can be moderated through citizens’ increased use of e-government. For an effective e-government, and not ony, Governments need to embrace the multistakeholder principles, have enhanced cooperation with key stakeholders: citizens/users, business sector, civil society, media, etc. No matter what technologies are bring brougth in, how many gTLDs are out there, or what is the speed of the internet in the country, if there is no an integrated approach to development, where the human dimension is at the core of everything, then we may be missing a lot ... and here is where ALAC, ALSs, users can starting reflecting on ... With reflections on Roberto's reflections, from Geneva:), Veronica On Thu, May 23, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Roberto Gaetano < roberto_gaetano@hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi all.
I took the chance of a non-ICANN-related trip to Caucasus to contact the internet people, and specifically the At-Large structures, in the region.
I was not on any official ICANN mission, but believe that it is worth anyway to write a short report of my contacts and personal considerations.
I am addressing this to different mailing lists with separate messages, to avoid cross-posting.
As reference to earlier discussions, you can see that the issue of ICANN regions has been extensively debated. Follow up contacts have shown that the ccNSO is also not happy about the current subdivision. As for the ASO, because of their special internal structure, they are affected by the regions only when it comes to Board Directors election.
I had a very interesting meeting in Armenia, hosted by ISOC AM, with the Armenian ALSes.
The main points that came out from the discussion were (to the best of my recollection):
. The fact that the development of the internet in Armenia is consistently more advanced than in some neighboring countries (for instance, there are 3 ALSes) depends on a mix of elements, including the presence in Armenia of highly skilled ITC professionals as well as the vision that has identified since the early days the potential of the internet. This experience will be very difficult to replicate in other countries, at least in the short term.
. Thanks to the early vision, Armenia has developed the "multi-stakeholder" concept also in the management of the internet at the national level. The ccTLD operator, the ISPs, the At-Large structures, commercial organizations, the government, are tightly collaborating, and there is also the initiative of a permanent IGF forum in Armenia. This has allowed to have very advanced positions in international fora, where all stakeholders are contributing, and we do not have the situation that can be seen in other countries, where the government is imposing its view.
. Looking at the map of the world, and the location of the ALSes, it appears clearly that there is a wide area, namely the former Soviet Union states in central Asia, where there is no ALAC presence. This is felt to be tightly correlated with the fact that the position that these countries bring in the international debate are only depending on government opinions. In order to promote ICANN's multi-stakeholder approach, ALAC should make an outreach effort to these countries with the objective of gaining members. The general opinion is that this will be a difficult objective to achieve, but nevertheless it is strategically important.
. The current location of Armenia in APRALO is creating serious problems. It should be noted that the Armenian ccTLD operator is a member of CENTR (the European ccTLD operators organization), ISPs are getting their addresses from RIPE (the European Regional addressing organization), but the Armenian ALSes are forced to be associated to APRALO. Considering the point above, i.e. the Armenian multi-stakeholder model that brings together different interests to cooperate at the national level, we have the strange situation that national domain names and IP addresses depend from Europe, while At-Large structures depend from a different region. Moreover, there are at the At-Large level cooperation projects ongoing that are coordinated by the European Union, and the location of Armenia in the AP ICANN region does make little sense, if any. For instance, if EURALO develops itself as the partner of the European Union for such European projects, it would be extremely impractical to have participating ALSes being in a different region. Further considerations have been the location of Armenia in Europe in a number of different international organizations.
. Armenia, being part of the former Soviet Union, has kept a network of contacts at the technical level with other operators that are part of the Community of Independent States (CIS). One example is also the Regional Commonwealth in the field of communications (RCC - http://www.en.rcc.org.ru/index.php). This network is also important in the discussions related to internet governance and for the decisions in the ITU.
. One question was raised, about what can ALAC do for the users. This is a key issue, because it is hard to motivate individuals and organizations to join ALAC if the only thing that they get is the opportunity to participate in policy development. Budget should be earmarked for initiatives that are useful for the internet users, like training.
To this, I would like to add some personal considerations on the development of ICT, and specifically Internet, in Armenia.
I have travelled extensively, in cities and in rural areas, and have been staying only once overnight in a place without internet connection, and only once in a place that had internet connection but not WiFi. Please note that I have never stayed in fancy hotels, but rather in hostels or guesthouses, always in inexpensive places. This gave me the feeling of the ubiquity of the internet in Armenia.
Besides internet, I witnessed the diffusion of mobile communications. It seems to me that everybody has a mobile phone. I have seen not only bus drivers talking on their mobiles (a plague that I see very often in my country), but also shepherds in the countryside with mobile phones. Considering that the next frontier of the internet is mobile devices, this is promising.
Unfortunately, I failed to ask confirmation at the meeting with ALSes, but my impression is that Armenia took advantage of the progress in technology in the years of their independence, and moved straight to new technologies, when telcos in Europe and US (for sure this was the situation in Italy 20 years ago) were resisting change in order to protect and further exploit their investments in previous technologies.
Another simple example of how the internet is affecting common behavior is the police. This is the only country where I have seen police cars displaying instead of the simple "Police" word in the local language the url of the police web site: www.police.am. It might be the case in other countries as well, but I have noticed it here for the first time.
Best regards,
Roberto
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Homepage for the region: http://www.euralo.org
-- *Veronica Cretu * *President, "CMB" Training Center, **Republic of Moldova - www.cmb.md * *Member of the Multistakeholder Advisory Group* *To the Internet Governance Forum (IGF)* *http://www.intgovforum.org/cms/* *Member of the Nominating Committee of ICANN* *(Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbering)* *www.icann.org* *Email: veronicacretu@gmail.com and/or veronica@cretu.md Skype: veronicacretu Phone: 373 067435000*
participants (4)
-
EMP -
Roberto Gaetano -
Veni Markovski -
Veronica Cretu