Dear All, Please find the MP3 recording for IGO-INGO Access to Curative Rights Protection Mechanisms Working Group call on Wednesday, 05 August 2015 at 1600 UTC at: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-igo-ingo-05aug15-en.mp3<http://mailer.samanage.com/wf/click?upn=NrFWbrBstcrPWP369qgbqlXiSKeL20xnUXzI03ZqpsvAYdkMhrgWmNqMrAAh1K9BMD4ghM4EjFJkIivsEw3j1A-3D-3D_bE-2FoTL3xpeyRVrNxqAJXQ5-2Fc3sJwLoyf3pmXa1IzazbYz4-2Bd8qa-2FJrWpKIptw4WpH-2Bv8N5ihUeILy8hhfEZ0k6OieCmGDkoU70IAQv3trcfxXtX-2Fhd24YsmyQp3NfZxV31qsIoSxEQ7NTVGcmRDBW7rOASOzkff5omc3A312aJ5wC9bvbyLTK-2BKSpSUrB1hSFOTdffbpf2kTo7tdqxv1CdratYFF3A-2F9slMjLluJ5IkMDPVzAK39Hg9ck7r2JMH4AXxh3T6njypE5rd2LyXQvy0rnxV-2FnDA-2FEyiZRl594klaaHV8inaQJcdZ-2BeZKYmiIQsBV0A9mmiDCQLRmUJFtuzZnkxEo4mi-2BUkcYSuSodzi7JzAGUBVkgTDs40c8bQe3k8AFUssZ2ZTUgrJT-2BlL7EJLVScY0RjBJVNl3W7JPT4h8uwPG7C6NXuL0J9kZWXPSnnYBE0fg3NOEwBcHk4UvZ7GvlCadm9QK6K-2BjwAjHtq8-3D> On page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#aug The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/ Attendees: George Kirikos - Individual Petter Rindforth - IPC Phil Corwin - BC Val Sherman - IPC Jim Bikoff - IPC Paul Tattersfield - Individual Osvaldo Novoa - NCUC Mason Cole - RySG Lori Schulman - IPC Rudi Vansnick - NPOC Jay Chapman - Individual Apologies: Kathy Kleiman - NCUC ICANN staff: Mary Wong Berry Cobb Steve Chan Julia Charvolen Terri Agnew ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives:http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo-crp/ Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/97rhAg Thank you. Kind regards, Terri Agnew ------------------------------- Adobe Connect chat transcript for Wednesday, 05 August 2015: Terri Agnew:Dear all, welcome to the IGO-INGO Curative Rights Protection PDP WG Meeting on the 5th August 2015 George Kirikos:Hi everyone. Osvaldo Novoa:Hello all George Kirikos:Hi Osvaldo. George Kirikos:I noticed there's a typo in the document that's on screen -- it says "UCANN" on page 4 (just above the "3. Questions", in blue text) Mary Wong:Thanks, George - we'll fix in final formatting Terri Agnew:Welcome Paul Tattersfield Paul Tattersfield:Hello all Terri Agnew:Welcome Phil Corwin Philip Corwin:Hello all. I've been on call since start but had to look up Adobe link George Kirikos:Welcome, Phil. Philip Corwin:Echoing petter, thanks tyo all for being on call on short notice Terri Agnew:Welcome Rudi Vansnick Rudi Vansnick:sorry for being late George Kirikos:Welcome, Rudi. George Kirikos:Is there a possibility of having co-authors? (i.e. more than one expert) That's common in academic research. Mary Wong:@George, as this would be more solicitation of expert advice rather than a scholarly paper, I'd say let's go with one first. Rudi Vansnick:good question George although it could be a budget issue Terri Agnew:Welcome Lori Schulman Lori:Thanks. My apologies for getting on late. Lots of balls in the air today. Jay Chapman:and the domain name registrant's rights to the registration and/or use of a domain name George Kirikos:Jay's language looks fine to me. Rudi Vansnick:good point Jay Mary Wong:Can we simplify it by saying something like "conflict between an IGO's and a registrant's rights"? Philip Corwin:I added the proposed blue language in Q1 that refers to registrant's rights -- but am agnostic on final language so long as it captures concept. Rudi Vansnick:the right to use is quite important Mary Wong:@Jay, @Phil, if we change the language, would we still need Phil's language in blue at the end of that sentence in Q1? George Kirikos:I think the key part of Question #1 is that it's the IGO that's initiating the dispute. So, they're trying to claim 'immunity', even though they are the "aggressor" so to speak. Whereas "immunity" is usually a defence to a claim. Lori:When I scroll the document is it scrolling for everyone or just me? Rudi Vansnick:@Lori : only for you Lori:thanks. George Kirikos:I think we definitely need the language at the end of Q1, perhaps even more, to clarify that the IGO is the one initiating the dispute. Mary Wong:When documents are unsync'ed everyone can scroll without affecting anyone else's view Mary Wong:@George, note that the Q currently says "judicial action brought by a domain name registrant" Jay Chapman:Yes, i think the blue language Phil added is still necessary Rudi Vansnick:we can keep the text in blue Paul Tattersfield:and the domain name registrant's rights to registration or use of a domain? Philip Corwin:Q2 references a judicial appeal filed by a registrant who lost a UDRP or URS -- the only situation in which the sovereign immunity issue arises. George Kirikos:It's clear that if the UDRP didn't exist, IGOs would have to use the courts. George Kirikos:(and they wouldn't be able to assert immunity, when they themselves brought an action to the court) George Kirikos:So, to the extent that the UDRP doesn't create any "new law", implicitly the IGOs should still be subject to court action, even if they decided to initiate via the UDRP. Lori:I was thinking of Judd Kessler of Porter Wright Morris and Arthur Rudi Vansnick:one simple question : what about an expert from outside the USA ? Lori:I can ask him. Lori:Rudi's point is well taken too. Mary Wong:@Rudi, Dr Khoury is from Israeal and Prof Geist from Canada Rudi Vansnick:Dr Khoury is the only one if i'm correct ? Lori:http://www.porterwright.com/judd_kessler/ Lori:Judd is an international arbitration judge Lori:Harvard educated, used to work for USAID Mary Wong:@Lori, when you contact Mr Kessler, please cc me and Steve so we can follow up if he's interested Lori:OK. Mary Wong:Thanks! George Kirikos:The experts need to also be familiar with rulings in many jurisdictions around the world, not just the USA. Lori:Judd is an international arbitrator -- I will ask these questions George Kirikos:(e.g. I had posted a Supreme Court of Canada decision) At least for G20 countries, or other advanced economies (i.e. where most IGOs and domain name registrants would be located) Lori:What have you been sending candidates since our doc is still under discussion or have you just been interviewing Mary Wong:@Lori, Steve has spoken to (or will speak to) all of them, explaining orally the scope of what we are looking for. Lori:Ok, I will call Judd, explain and then tell him to expect communication from Steve? Mary Wong:@Lori, thank you, that sounds great George Kirikos:I found a book published in 2000 by Cambridge University Press at http://catdir.loc.gov/catdir/samples/cam032/99011072.pdf George Kirikos:which seems to cover the topic. The author might be able to update us, since the precedents might have changed in 15 years. (he appears to cover more than one country). Mary Wong:@George, would you like to propose that staff contact Prof Reinisch? Lori:I just contacted Judd privately to see if there is any interest. When I hear from him then maybe I will set up a call with Steve George Kirikos:Sure, or other researchers. Lori:Mary, if he expresses any interest, then I will cc you and Steve Rudi Vansnick:i just agreed Mary Wong:Thanks Lori! George Kirikos:Of course, WIPO itself is an IGO. Their statement seems to just be a 'position statement', and not useful in the sense that it provides no underlying facts or supporting evidence. Lori:Brian and Jonathan from OECD were concerned that we were not focusing on their concerns enough Lori:that the group had been too dismissive on the whole George Kirikos:We've had dozens of volunteers spending hundreds of hours on 'their concerns', yet they've not shown up at these calls. Lori:I had pointed that out Mary Wong:Brian is an observer to this WG George Kirikos:Disagreeing with their analysis, and asking for facts (rather than position statements) shows we're bending over backwards to try to address their concerns. Mary Wong:@Lori, all those documents are part of this WG's record. We had Sub TEams that reviewed them all. Mary Wong:The review included the WIPO-2 Process report and associated documents, WIPO SCT proceedings, the earlier ICANN President's Joint Working Group, and the 2007 GNSO Issue Report. George Kirikos:Indeed, we've reached a conclusion that Article 6ter marks should be sufficient for standing under the existing UDRP. George Kirikos:And that further education would allow IGOs to move forward under the existing policy. So, their "wish list" is partially being addressed. George Kirikos:What's funny is that we've shown cases where IGOs do go to court. George Kirikos:(world bank, etc.) George Kirikos:When they speak in 'absolutes', instead of recognizing that reality is not 'absolute', it's like arguing religion. George Kirikos:e.g. they could have told us how they enforce non-domain trademark disputes. George Kirikos:Presumably they don't compel offenders into binding international arbitration....instead, they've been silent. George Kirikos:If they "tolerate" non-domain trademark infringement....it begs the question why they don't "tolerate" domain name related TM infringement? Rudi Vansnick:woops 30 days .. waw being a european i do not have these ;-) Rudi Vansnick:actually i'm happy with 3 -4 days of vacation ;-) George Kirikos:What's a vacation? :-) Paul Tattersfield:If the meeting can not take place soon it must call in to question the Dublin Deadline Philip Corwin:Exception noted Rudi ;-) Lori:I need to sign off. Lunch with the esteemed Mr. Metalitz. Lori:Ciao Rudi Vansnick:thanks a lot for the good work delivered George Kirikos:Bye everyone. Have a great day! Paul Tattersfield:thanks all Jay Chapman:goodbye all! Rudi Vansnick:bye