Hi All, As part of the notes of the meeting that Mary provided, I would also like to include an example table used during this session that proposes a framework for developing the finite list of identifiers to be protected. Given the principles mentioned in the notes below; that the list be reconcilable, validated, and free from errors helped to develop this example. Do note that the elements of this framework are for illustration purposes only. It does not suggest any agreed elements or formula that will eventually decide which scope of identifiers will be protected such as formal name, common name, respective national language, etc. All of these elements are still under deliberation by the reconvened group and will be deliberated further at our next session. In short, column 2 of page one and columns 2 and 3 on page two will become the output by which staff will eventually process these human-readable names and convert them to machine-readable DNS labels that allow for reservation on Specification 5. This is only a brief description of what this framework hopes to accomplish and I’ll be happy to review it in greater detail if required. I would also like to mention that Stephane from the RCRC representation provided an example of identifiers that also illustrates a possible formula that defines the scope of identifiers to be protected for the group to consider. However, it was only given in hard copy. Stephane, could you send a PDF copy of that example to this list for the reconvened group members that were not able to join us here at ICANN60? Staff will communicate the schedule of the next meeting shortly. Thank you. B Berry Cobb 720.839.5735 mail@berrycobb.com @berrycobb From: gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Mary Wong Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 07:42 To: Jeff Neuman; Heather Forrest Cc: gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org Subject: [Gnso-igo-ingo] Notes from Informal meeting about Red Cross Names at ICANN60 Hello again everyone, Please find attached the staff notes from the informal discussion that took place yesterday (30 October) at ICANN60. In response to Jeff’s questions – no decisions were taken, that being the understanding going into the meeting, and while there are further discussions that will need to take place at the next meeting (e.g. on the meaning and scope of “commonly used” (or usual) name for the Red Cross National Societies) there is no immediate action item that we recorded. For those who were present at the meeting, please let me know of any inaccuracies or if I missed anything. Thank you! Thanks and cheers Mary From: Jeff Neuman <jeff.neuman@comlaude.com> Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 12:52 To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org>, Heather Forrest <haforrestesq@gmail.com> Cc: "gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org" <gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org> Subject: RE: [Ext] RE: [Gnso-igo-ingo] REMINDER: Informal meeting about Red Cross Names at ICANN60 Ok, thanks. But were any decisions taken or any next steps that are immediate in nature? Jeffrey J. Neuman Senior Vice President |Valideus USA | Com Laude USA 1751 Pinnacle Drive, Suite 600 Mclean, VA 22102, United States E: <mailto:jeff.neuman@valideus.com> jeff.neuman@valideus.com or <mailto:jeff.neuman@comlaude.com> jeff.neuman@comlaude.com T: +1.703.635.7514 M: +1.202.549.5079 @Jintlaw From: Mary Wong [mailto:mary.wong@icann.org] Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 12:19 PM To: Jeff Neuman <jeff.neuman@comlaude.com>; Heather Forrest <haforrestesq@gmail.com> Cc: gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org Subject: Re: [Ext] RE: [Gnso-igo-ingo] REMINDER: Informal meeting about Red Cross Names at ICANN60 Hello everyone – staff took notes at the meeting and we will circulate them to this list once we’ve had a chance to clean up the formatting and typos etc. Thanks and cheers Mary From: Jeff Neuman <jeff.neuman@comlaude.com> Date: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 12:06 To: Heather Forrest <haforrestesq@gmail.com>, Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> Cc: "gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org" <gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org> Subject: [Ext] RE: [Gnso-igo-ingo] REMINDER: Informal meeting about Red Cross Names at ICANN60 I was not able to make the meeting either. Can we get an update as to what happened? Jeffrey J. Neuman Senior Vice President |Valideus USA | Com Laude USA 1751 Pinnacle Drive, Suite 600 Mclean, VA 22102, United States E: <mailto:jeff.neuman@valideus.com> jeff.neuman@valideus.com or <mailto:jeff.neuman@comlaude.com> jeff.neuman@comlaude.com T: +1.703.635.7514 M: +1.202.549.5079 @Jintlaw From: gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Heather Forrest Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 1:12 PM To: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> Cc: gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-igo-ingo] REMINDER: Informal meeting about Red Cross Names at ICANN60 Apologies in advance if I'm a few minutes late. We have a joint meeting of the ccNSO and GNSO Councils ending at 13:30, as the informal Red Cross discussion begins some distance away in the conference centre. Best wishes, Heather On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 9:51 PM, Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> wrote: Dear all, This note is just a reminder that an informal meeting at ICANN60, to continue the group’s discussions on principles and criteria for determining the finite list of Red Cross names, has been scheduled for tomorrow - Monday 30 October, 13.30-14.30 Abu Dhabi time - in Capital Suite 19. If anyone was planning to call in rather than attend in person, please be so kind as to let staff know right away – as we mentioned, no AV facilities are being provided for these informal meetings but we will see what we can do to try to rig up something. Thanks and cheers Mary From: <ntfy-gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Terri Agnew <terri.agnew@icann.org> Date: Friday, October 27, 2017 at 10:45 To: "ntfy-gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org" <ntfy-gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org> Cc: "gnso-secs@icann.org" <gnso-secs@icann.org> Subject: [Ntfy-gnso-igo-ingo] Meeting Invite: Informal meeting about Red Cross Names Hello again everyone, Having consulted with Thomas, and in view of the fact that people are already beginning to travel to Abu Dhabi as well as calendars that are filling up rapidly, we wish to confirm that the informal meeting to continue the discussion about principles and criteria for inclusion on a definitive list of protected Red Cross names will take place on Monday 30 October, from 13.30-14.30 Abu Dhabi time, for 60 minutes in room: Capital Suite 19. We will follow up with a calendar invitation shortly, as well as with further details as to the location at the meeting venue where this meeting will take place and the availability of a telephone connection. We hope those who indicated they are free at this time will still be able to attend, and that at least some of those who have not been able to fill in the survey will as well. Thanks and cheers Mary From: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> Date: Monday, October 23, 2017 at 11:10 To: "gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org" <gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org> Subject: Please FILL IN: Doodle poll for informal meeting in Abu Dhabi Dear all, In order to assist us with finding an appropriate time and day for the proposed informal meeting in Abu Dhabi, to continue discussion on the criteria and principles for the Red Cross names list, please be so kind as to fill out the Doodle poll on your availability (and to indicate if you are not going to be there in person so we can try to find a room with at least telephone functionality): https://icannorg.doodle.com/poll/w4xrnmw79a49u8mm[icannorg.doodle.com] <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__icannorg.doodle.com_pol...> Thank you! Cheers Mary From: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> Date: Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 17:35 To: "gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org" <gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org> Subject: Doodle poll for informal meeting in Abu Dhabi Dear all, Please be so kind as to fill in this Doodle poll if you will be in Abu Dhabi and would like to attend an informal meeting to continue the discussions: https://icannorg.doodle.com/poll/w4xrnmw79a49u8mm[icannorg.doodle.com] <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__icannorg.doodle.com_pol...> Please note the following: * At this stage, we are not able to secure a room that will have remote participation facilities. It is possible (though not guaranteed) that we can get a room with a telephone, in which case we may be able to offer dial-ins (audio only; there will not be any Adobe Connect functionality, recordings or transcripts). * As such, if you will not be in Abu Dhabi but wish to participate via telephone, feel free to go ahead and indicate your availability – but please put in a comment at the bottom of the poll so that we know you can only participate telephonically. * If we are able to find a slot that works for most members, staff will take notes at the meeting and report back to the full Working Group. As Thomas noted on our last call, this will be an informal meeting and therefore no decisions will be taken. Thanks and cheers Mary From: Mary Wong <mary.wong@icann.org> Date: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 18:44 To: "gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org" <gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org> Subject: Action Items & Notes from the call today for the reconvened PDP Working Group on Red Cross names Dear all, Here are the Action Items and Notes from the call that was held earlier today; as Julie has noted (below), the MP3 recording is already available. We will post it and the transcript (when available) to the Working Group wiki space noted in Julie’s message. ACTION ITEMS: * Staff to circulate Doodle poll for informal meeting in Abu Dhabi – as this proposed meeting will be informal, with no remote participation facilities available, no decisions will be made and the proceedings will be reported back to the full WG for further discussion. * Working Group to continue to discuss possible principles for determining what names go on the definitive list to be implemented – based on the initial suggestions from the Red Cross representatives and the notes of the discussion from today (see below). NOTES: * The original PDP recommendation related to the following Red Cross identifiers (termed “Scope 2 Identifiers” in the Working Group’s Final Report): 189 recognized National Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies; International Committee of the Red Cross; International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies; ICRC, CICR, CICV, MKKK, IFRC, FICR (National Society names protected in English, as well as in their respective national languages; ICRC & IFRC identifiers protected in the 6 United Nations languages). * The scope of this reconvened Working Group does not extend to considering acronyms - we have been tasked to consider the specific Red Cross names at issue. * The contents of the current list of Red Cross identifiers placed under interim reservation by the Board are likely to change once this Working Group’s proposals are accepted. Discussion of Possible Principles for Defining the Final List of Names: * For the International Movement - Full Match of the following, in the six official UN languages: o International Committee of the Red Cross o International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies o POSSIBLE ADDITION (also in UN6): International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement? International Movement of the Red Cross and Red Crescent? * For the National Societies - o What is a "usual name" (as proposed by the Red Cross in Stephane’s most recent email)? This needs to be clarified and understood - is there a formal list? The Council's direction was for a specific and finite set of names, with specified limited variants. o One possibility is to limit the list to "official (full) names" - in their respective national language(s); however, the concept of "usual names" can be refined, e.g. "commonly used". o No objection to including "usual names" as long as the meaning is clearly understood, and there can be a finite list (Note: By "usual" name this is normally the Society name without the word "Society" without the addition of the article "The"). o It may be clearer to use the phrase "official and commonly known names" instead; however, is there a way to ensure that this is specific enough i.e. a definitive list? Can we use something like the TMCH requirement of demonstrating "use"? Alternatively, for "commonly known", can we use the criteria in the additional draft principles suggested by the Red Cross? o Discussion to continue on this topic, and the additional suggested draft principles submitted by the Red Cross representatives. Thanks and cheers Mary From: <gnso-igo-ingo-bounces@icann.org> on behalf of Julie Bisland <julie.bisland@icann.org> Date: Wednesday, October 18, 2017 at 13:30 To: "gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org" <gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org> Cc: "gnso-secs@icann.org" <gnso-secs@icann.org> Subject: [Gnso-igo-ingo] Recordings, Attendance & AC Chat for IGO-INGO Protections in all gTLDS PDP WG on Red Cross Names on 18 October 2017 at 13:00 UTC Dear all, Please find the attendance attached, and the mp3, Adobe Connect recording and AC Chat below for the reconvened IGO-INGO Protections in all gTLDs PDP Working Group on Red Cross Names held on Wednesday, 18 October 2017 at 13:00 UTC. Mp3: https://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-igo-ingo-18oct17-en.mp3[audio.icann.org] <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__audio.icann.org_gnso_gn...> AC recording: <https://participate.icann.org/p2ds5sxzy14/?OWASP_CSRFTOKEN=ba32205baa7d5c6f9...> https://participate.icann.org/p2ds5sxzy14/ The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__gnso.icann.org_en_group-...> Mailing list archive: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-igo-ingo/ Agenda Wiki page: <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_A...> https://community.icann.org/x/ApJEB[community.icann.org] ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Thank you. Kind regards, Julie ——————————————— Adobe Connect chat transcript for 18 October 2017 Julie Bisland:Welcome to the Reconvened IGO INGO PDP Working Group on Red Cross names call on Wednesday, 18 October 2017 at 13:00 UTC Julie Bisland:Agenda wiki page: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_A... <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__community.icann.org_x_A...> &d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=QiF-05YzARosRvTYd84AB_UYInlydmFcjNmBM5XgySw&m=DHnvzmLiZnkKNwp9w_Pojudmg_tzTXk56wvVbesofKc&s=PkKRq7rvpVswCqS1Z8OzSBXvyU_wN_TKPT81ONssOGo&e= Thomas Rickert:HI alll, one moment , please! Osvaldo Novoa:hello all, I am in Brazil in a hotel with a very slow WiFi, so my access is somewhat limited Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):sorry - coming in late Mary Wong:No worries, Thomas - we're a team! Mary Wong:Here is the link from Berry's email: https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_sites_def... <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.icann.org_sites_def...> &d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=QiF-05YzARosRvTYd84AB_UYInlydmFcjNmBM5XgySw&m=DHnvzmLiZnkKNwp9w_Pojudmg_tzTXk56wvVbesofKc&s=0TUw0gqyJ7gxZDYPxmYhhigD-IcaRavoGRsd6maPCjs&e= Mary Wong:And note that these Red Cross names are reserved on an interim basis until the issue is resolved, which is what our reconvened WG has been tasked to try to do. Jeff Neuman:Just to confirm - the list at that link - is that the list of currently protected names, or the list they want protected Mary Wong:Current Julie Bisland:Stephane, you should be able to speak into phone, as it is unmuted Julie Bisland:maybe move on while the operator troubleshoots his line Mary Wong:@Jeff, it is possible that the final list will look somewhat different from what is at the current link. Hankins:Sorry for this please go ahead... Berry Cobb:@Jeff, the link is what is currently protected. The attached word doc was a list at a first attempt to reconcile the names. Berry Cobb:@Jeff, those acronyms and out of scope for this reconvened group. Berry Cobb:"are" not and Berry Cobb:Apologies to the WG. I have contractors directly behind me with too much noise to contribute via audio. Mary Wong:@Jeff, the list is currently what is (temporarily) reserved - that is why they are in the document marked up by Stephane and his team. Jeff Neuman:But acronymns are on both lists Jeff Neuman:both the list from Berry as well as the one from Stephane Mary Wong:At the moment, yes - b/c they were reserved per Board direction on an interim basis. Mary Wong:We only have that one list at the moment - we don't yet have a list FROM this group since we haven't agreed on the formula and criteria. Jeff Neuman:Under the GNSO policy that we passed, what is the list of names that would be protected. That is what I would like to see Jeff Neuman:not the ones that are currently protected by the Board Jeff Neuman:or the ones proposed Mary Wong:@Jeff - we don't have a full list of those, with their DNS labels and language variants - since those were NOT adopted by the Board (hence our work here in this group), and so have NOT moved into implementation. Jeff Neuman:Thanks Mary, I have my hand raised Jeff Neuman:to discuss Mary Wong:You're welcome! So, basically all we have as an implementable list (which is what is on screen here) is the list of a few RC identifiers that were approved under the original PDP (Page 1), and the rest of the list is the TEMPORARY reserved list (which is why acronyms are included, but which is NOT expected to be the final list coming out of our work). Hopefully that helps. Julie Bisland:reminder: please mute Mary Wong:Stephane also had a number of comments and specific questions in his email that we have not extracted for this document, but we have them ready for discussion if needed. Berry Cobb:I'd just like to point out that the use of "hypens" is a part of that algrorithm when we convert the formal names. So that is automatic in that regard. Mary Wong:I believe Stephane is referring to this part of his email: "Names already included by the Board in the list of reserved names such as “magen david adom”, “red star of david”, but also “international red cross and red crescent movement” in the 6 UN languages (that is the Statutory name endorsed by the States), etc. " Mary Wong:Done, Thomas Jeff Neuman:So, adding the word "movement" to all of them? Jeff Neuman:So long as we are just talking in terms of full names and not abbreviations, I guess no issues Hankins:Mary - I am referring to the name "International Movement of the Red Cross and Red Crescent", that is the statutory name of the Movement / endorsed by States Jeff Neuman:internationalredandcrossredcrescentmovement (Is that more than 63 characters?) Berry Cobb:63 Char issues will be an output of the algorithm. This discussion is about which formal designations will be reservered. Berry Cobb:Should they be >63, they will not be added to any future reserved list Jeff Neuman:internationalmovementoftheredcrossandredcrescent.TLD Jeff Neuman:I hear you Berry....I just like to visualize Jeff Neuman:Lets just make sure we are really precise in the principle Berry Cobb:Time check - 15 minutes. Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):We need to protect usual names - although this is a criterion it would take form of a finite number of names pursuant to the list produced by the ICRC Mason Cole:Thomas, should it be defined as the official "full" name for avoidance of doubt? Osvaldo Novoa:Sorry, I have to leave now. I will read the transcript. Best regards. Thomas Rickert:bye Osvaldo Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Jeff: I will leave that to Stephane -but we should avoid a chicken and egg problem as in the end the criterion will be complemented with a finite list the way I understand this effort Jeff Neuman:Right....so if the official name is "American National Red Cross", but the "usual name" is "American Red Cross", I think that is fine. Jeff Neuman:Can we change "usual" to "commonly known" Mary Wong:I've tried to capture all this in the chat, Jeff Mary Wong:Notes, I mean, sorry Jeff Neuman:I think there is yes Mary Wong:We will need a specific list to implement - possibly with a clear formula to update, but it can't be open ended. Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):I feel staff would need to rely on the info offered by the ICRC, which I presume will be reasonably limited Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):the burden on the ICRC should be proportionate and reasonable Jeff Neuman:Jorge - I am not saying this is a huge burden. If it is a "usual" name, then how hard would it be to point to examples Jeff Neuman:In other words...for American Red Cross, you just have to say "look at Redcross.org" Jeff Neuman:That's not a burden Jeff Neuman:For British Red Cross, look at "https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redcross.org.uk_ <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.redcross.org.uk_&d=D...> &d=DwIFaQ&c=FmY1u3PJp6wrcrwll3mSVzgfkbPSS6sJms7xcl4I5cM&r=QiF-05YzARosRvTYd84AB_UYInlydmFcjNmBM5XgySw&m=DHnvzmLiZnkKNwp9w_Pojudmg_tzTXk56wvVbesofKc&s=Cb5hm62h1TcOFv89K6d-VqEqVWLDkWf6Q-sRO_k-wrw&e=" Mary Wong:From the staff side, we request that ICANN not be placed in the position of making decisions as to what goes and what does not go on the list. Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):@Thomas: if you invite us for a good coffee, I'll be there ;-) Mary Wong:We will send a Doodle poll if that is beetter Jeff Neuman:Mary - using the examples I provided, I think we can both affirmatively state that ICANN wil not be in tough position Jeff Neuman:But if the Board wants us to revise out policies, staff should be willing to take on additional responsibilities Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):we have to balance trust and burden of proof... Jorge Cancio (GAC Switzerland):thanks all and bye! avri doria:bye _______________________________________________ Gnso-igo-ingo mailing list Gnso-igo-ingo@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-igo-ingo