Hi Kristine, I am clearly wearing my registrar hat here, but as the gaining registrar, we usually have no way of determining whether a transfer has been fraudulent or not. What we can see is if we upheld policy in effecting the transfer. The is what makes it valid or not. To see if it was fraudulent or not usually requires information we have no access to. I recently locked down a domain name due to a transfer complaint that appears to have many of the signs of a fraudulent transfer. We are the secondary gaining registrar on this alleged hijacking, meaning that the complainant is not the registrant that authorized the transfer. While I agree that there is a strong likelyhood of the transfer being part of a chain hijacking, we would not be able to prove it in court if the current registrant were to complain that we illegally deprived him of his domain name. Hence I feel very uncomfortable in releasing the domain name as nothing in ICANN policy would cover or indemnify us from such damages. Consequently, we have locked the domain as we would in a UDRP and advised the parties to settle this in court. Best, Volker Am 06.02.2014 16:12, schrieb Dorrain, Kristine:
Yes, I want to be clear, I am not saying we backtrack and include this in the TDRP. But this type of issue is exactly the one Registrants are seeking a remedy for within ICANN. And we have to tell them, "sorry ICANN has no provisions for this." If a Registrar refuses to say "hey we were defrauded at the point of receiving the FOA", then a registrant has no recourse. The courts are not a good solution because of the same jurisdictional hurdles the other policies address.
I believe we were going to tell ICANN "hey, we note that this is a problem. You might want to create something new to address this because we determined it doesn't fit in the TDRP." My point in sending it was to provide concrete evidence of the problem we're recommending ICANN address.
Kristine
-----Original Message----- From: owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org [mailto:owner-gnso-irtpd@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kevin Erdman Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 9:04 AM To: Volker Greimann Cc: rob.golding@astutium.com; gnso-irtpd@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-irtpd] Example email string
Hi Rob & Volker,
I disagree with the position that a party using illegally obtained credentials to effect a transfer is a valid transfer. In the banking world, if I get Rob's banking credentials and transfer $10K to my account in North Korea, I complied with the procedures for a "valid transfer" but the transfer is reversible and has consequences. In the domain world, most courts have no power to get a domain transferred to North Korea, but ICANN does. Thus, I think that there should be some allowance to hijack victims under ICANN policy to pursue a fraudulent transfer that was done according to procedure. The burden placed upon parties that unknowingly participated in the transfer should be minimal, but shutting the door on a hijack victim because the hijackers were really good and followed procedure seems unfair. _________________________________ Kevin R Erdman
cell 317.289.3934
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 6, 2014, at 5:45, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi Rob,
I tend to agree here. A 'valid transfer' is a transfer where transfer policy was followed in performing the transfer. An 'invalid transfer' is a transfer where transfer policy was not followed, or not completely followed.
A transfer against the will of the registrant may still have been a valid transfer, if process was adhered to.
Do we need an additional term for such cases?
Volker
See the chain of emails from someone desperate for their registrar to file a TDRP-the registrar is refusing. Whilst I sympathise with the Registrant who has 'lost' control of the domains, the transfers were 'valid' in that they went through the normal transfer processes, were authorised by the contacts on the domain, and they were started by correctly logging into the losing registrar.
If the details are exactly as described in the PDF I'd suggest they * first file a report with the police * go see their legal representative * contact the registries concerned * formally write to ICANN (as nothing in there indicated they had actually raised this with icann)
Rob -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.