Hi Kevin, I am purely talking policy on this when I define "valid". 'Valid' in the sense of the policy is a transfer that has followed the policy rules. A transfer that was used with fraudulent means is just that: 'fraudulent'... So a valid transfer may have been fraudulent, but that does not make it invalid in the eyes of the current policy. So instead of expanding the interpretation of valid, I'd suggest we develop alternative language for what you mean by invalid, such as unauthorized or fraudulent... Volker Am 06.02.2014 16:04, schrieb Kevin Erdman:
Hi Rob & Volker,
I disagree with the position that a party using illegally obtained credentials to effect a transfer is a valid transfer. In the banking world, if I get Rob's banking credentials and transfer $10K to my account in North Korea, I complied with the procedures for a "valid transfer" but the transfer is reversible and has consequences. In the domain world, most courts have no power to get a domain transferred to North Korea, but ICANN does. Thus, I think that there should be some allowance to hijack victims under ICANN policy to pursue a fraudulent transfer that was done according to procedure. The burden placed upon parties that unknowingly participated in the transfer should be minimal, but shutting the door on a hijack victim because the hijackers were really good and followed procedure seems unfair. _________________________________ Kevin R Erdman
cell 317.289.3934
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 6, 2014, at 5:45, "Volker Greimann" <vgreimann@key-systems.net> wrote:
Hi Rob,
I tend to agree here. A 'valid transfer' is a transfer where transfer policy was followed in performing the transfer. An 'invalid transfer' is a transfer where transfer policy was not followed, or not completely followed.
A transfer against the will of the registrant may still have been a valid transfer, if process was adhered to.
Do we need an additional term for such cases?
Volker
See the chain of emails from someone desperate for their registrar to file a TDRP-the registrar is refusing. Whilst I sympathise with the Registrant who has 'lost' control of the domains, the transfers were 'valid' in that they went through the normal transfer processes, were authorised by the contacts on the domain, and they were started by correctly logging into the losing registrar.
If the details are exactly as described in the PDF I'd suggest they * first file a report with the police * go see their legal representative * contact the registries concerned * formally write to ICANN (as nothing in there indicated they had actually raised this with icann)
Rob -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.