Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items -- remarks about ISO 3166 terminology used
A quick scan of the working document shows rather inconsistent use of ISO 3166 related terms. Quite some of these uses stem from citing the AGB. There is not a lot to do about that, we should not change history too much. But for the current document we could do better I hope. Often one reads things like "codes listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard". What really is meant here is "codes listed in the standard ISO 3166 Part 2". What makes this important is that people are confusing the -2 suffix with the length of the code. We should be more careful in using proper terminology and if one wants to use "3166-1" as a shortcut for "ISO 3166 Part 2" it should somewhere be explained. An example of unclear use is a sentence like: "meaningful representations of a country or territory name on the ISO 3166-2 standard" What is really meant here? Country and territory names appear in ISO 3166 Part one, ISO 3166 Part 2 talks about subdivisions only. (It might be quoted from an old AGB so can't be changed, but it is still confusing), Something like "ISO 3166 3-letter codes, country subdivisions (3166 Alpha-2)" becomes quite confusing very fast. in general ISO talks about alpha-3 etc. codes and 3166 Part 1 had alpha-2 and alpha-3 codes. ISO 3166 Part 2 is about codes for subdivision codes. These codes are not related to the alpha-3 codes of Part 1 but consist of alpha-2 codes from part 1 followed by "up to 3 characters". The working document talks about alpha-3 or 2 codes, 2/3 characters, and 2/3 letter codes etc. Most times they seem to be used denoting the same but I'm not always when non-ASCII codes are involved. I know, it is hard to be consistent it the terminology but it is worth the effort. jaap
Thanks Jaap! Agreed that clear, precise and consistent terminology should be used in both the WT5 outputs and the next iteration of the AGB. Sent from my iPhone
On 5 Sep 2018, at 13:36, Jaap Akkerhuis <jaap@NLnetLabs.nl> wrote:
A quick scan of the working document shows rather inconsistent use of ISO 3166 related terms.
Quite some of these uses stem from citing the AGB. There is not a lot to do about that, we should not change history too much. But for the current document we could do better I hope.
Often one reads things like "codes listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard". What really is meant here is "codes listed in the standard ISO 3166 Part 2". What makes this important is that people are confusing the -2 suffix with the length of the code. We should be more careful in using proper terminology and if one wants to use "3166-1" as a shortcut for "ISO 3166 Part 2" it should somewhere be explained.
An example of unclear use is a sentence like:
"meaningful representations of a country or territory name on the ISO 3166-2 standard"
What is really meant here? Country and territory names appear in ISO 3166 Part one, ISO 3166 Part 2 talks about subdivisions only. (It might be quoted from an old AGB so can't be changed, but it is still confusing),
Something like "ISO 3166 3-letter codes, country subdivisions (3166 Alpha-2)" becomes quite confusing very fast. in general ISO talks about alpha-3 etc. codes and 3166 Part 1 had alpha-2 and alpha-3 codes. ISO 3166 Part 2 is about codes for subdivision codes. These codes are not related to the alpha-3 codes of Part 1 but consist of alpha-2 codes from part 1 followed by "up to 3 characters".
The working document talks about alpha-3 or 2 codes, 2/3 characters, and 2/3 letter codes etc. Most times they seem to be used denoting the same but I'm not always when non-ASCII codes are involved.
I know, it is hard to be consistent it the terminology but it is worth the effort.
jaap _______________________________________________ Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
Jaap, I agree, and therefore I for example usually always try to use these terms: * ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 Codes o these are the 2-letter codes used for ccTLDs, like "DE" for Germany o these are in Part 1 of "ISO 3166" * ISO 3166-1 Alpha-3 Codes o these are the 3-letter codes for countries like "DEU" for Germany o these are also in Part 1 of "ISO 3166" * ISO 3166-2 Country Subdivision Names (NOT the "codes"!) o These are usually states, provinces, districts, etc o these are in Part 2 of "ISO 3166" The "ISO 3166-2 Country Subdivisions" also have "codes" - but we do not protect the CODES but rather the NAMES! Example: There is a subdivision "Bayern" in Germany (Bavaria). The "code" is "DE-BY". But that's not what we protect. We protect the NAME itself: "Bayern". It's one thing how people call these in our working emails. And you are right: we should all be very precise. But we WT members usually know what is meant. When it comes to the AGB we really need to be SUPER precise - and very consistent! So my suggestion for the use in the AGB: * ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 Codes (alternatively: "alpha-2 codes listed in the ISO 3166-1 standard") o the 2-letter country codes of ISO 3166 Part 1 o these are real "codes" and not "names" * ISO 3166 -1 Alpha-3 Codes (alternatively: "alpha-3 codes listed in the ISO 3166-1 standard") o the 3-letter country codes of ISO 3166 Part 1 o these are real "codes" and not "names" * ISO 3166 -2 Country Subdivision Names (alternatively: "country subdivision names listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard") o Officially called "principal subdivisions of countries" and located in ISO 3166 Part 2 o Again: here we target the NAME - not the "code" (we target "Bayern" and not "DE-BY") - hence we do not say "Country Subdivision Codes" but "Country Subdivision Names". The 2012 AGB uses "sub-national place name, such as a county, province, or state, listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard" in section 2.2.1.4.2 (3) when it refers to "ISO 3166 -2 Country Subdivision Names". ISO calls the CODES (which is not what we want to protect) "codes for identifying principal subdivisions of countries" and in other places "country subdivision codes". I haven't found the term "sub-national place name" in official ISO documents. So while it's clear what is meant - it's not ISO language. So the targeted strings are in my mind: "Country Subdivision Names" - and usually that column is always called "Subdivision Name". We might want to consider to not use "sub-national place name" in the AGB anymore. Thoughts? Thanks, Alexander -----Original Message----- From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Jaap Akkerhuis Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2018 3:36 PM To: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items -- remarks about ISO 3166 terminology used A quick scan of the working document shows rather inconsistent use of ISO 3166 related terms. Quite some of these uses stem from citing the AGB. There is not a lot to do about that, we should not change history too much. But for the current document we could do better I hope. Often one reads things like "codes listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard". What really is meant here is "codes listed in the standard ISO 3166 Part 2". What makes this important is that people are confusing the -2 suffix with the length of the code. We should be more careful in using proper terminology and if one wants to use "3166-1" as a shortcut for "ISO 3166 Part 2" it should somewhere be explained. An example of unclear use is a sentence like: "meaningful representations of a country or territory name on the ISO 3166-2 standard" What is really meant here? Country and territory names appear in ISO 3166 Part one, ISO 3166 Part 2 talks about subdivisions only. (It might be quoted from an old AGB so can't be changed, but it is still confusing), Something like "ISO 3166 3-letter codes, country subdivisions (3166 Alpha-2)" becomes quite confusing very fast. in general ISO talks about alpha-3 etc. codes and 3166 Part 1 had alpha-2 and alpha-3 codes. ISO 3166 Part 2 is about codes for subdivision codes. These codes are not related to the alpha-3 codes of Part 1 but consist of alpha-2 codes from part 1 followed by "up to 3 characters". The working document talks about alpha-3 or 2 codes, 2/3 characters, and 2/3 letter codes etc. Most times they seem to be used denoting the same but I'm not always when non-ASCII codes are involved. I know, it is hard to be consistent it the terminology but it is worth the effort. jaap _______________________________________________ Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list <mailto:Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org> Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
I am in agreement with Jaap, Nick and Alexander on the need for the AGB to contain accurate terms to represent things found externally (such as the ISO 3166-1 and ISO 3166-2 standards) and to be consistent throughout when referring to the same. Like you, Alexander, I also usually find it useful to tack on an example as a way to reinforce understanding, so perhaps WT5 should consider including an example of each by inserting the first entry of each standard for each of (i) to (iv) in 2.2.1.4.1 and 2.2.1.4.2 (3) (and wherever else is appropriate). After all, examples were included to explain the concept of transposition. Regards, Justine ----- On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 at 00:42, Alexander Schubert <alexander@schubert.berlin> wrote:
Jaap,
I agree, and therefore I for example usually always try to use these terms:
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 Codes*
o these are the 2-letter codes used for ccTLDs, like “DE” for Germany
o these are in Part 1 of “ISO 3166”
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-3 Codes*
o these are the 3-letter codes for countries like “DEU” for Germany
o these are also in Part 1 of “ISO 3166”
· *ISO 3166-2 Country Subdivision Names *(NOT the “codes”!)
o These are usually states, provinces, districts, etc
o these are in Part 2 of “ISO 3166”
The “ISO 3166-2 Country Subdivisions” also have “codes” – but we do not protect the CODES but rather the NAMES! Example: There is a subdivision “Bayern” in Germany (Bavaria). The “code” is “DE-BY”. But that’s not what we protect. We protect the NAME itself: “Bayern”.
It’s one thing how people call these in our working emails. And you are right: we should all be very precise. But we WT members usually know what is meant. When it comes to the AGB we really need to be SUPER precise – and very consistent! So my suggestion for the use in the AGB:
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 Codes (alternatively: “alpha-2 codes listed in the ISO 3166-1 standard”)*
o the 2-letter country codes of ISO 3166 Part 1
o these are real “codes” and not “names”
· *ISO 3166 -1 Alpha-3 Codes (alternatively: “alpha-3 codes listed in the ISO 3166-1 standard”)*
o the 3-letter country codes of ISO 3166 Part 1
o these are real “codes” and not “names”
· *ISO 3166 -2 Country Subdivision Names (alternatively: “country subdivision names listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard”)*
o Officially called “principal subdivisions of countries“ and located in ISO 3166 Part 2
o Again: here we target the NAME – not the “code” (we target “Bayern” and not “DE-BY”) – hence we do not say “Country Subdivision Codes” but “Country Subdivision Names”.
The 2012 AGB uses “*sub-national place name, such as a county, province, or state, listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard*” in section 2.2.1.4.2 (3) when it refers to “ISO 3166 -2 Country Subdivision Names”. ISO calls the CODES (which is not what we want to protect) “codes for identifying principal subdivisions of countries” and in other places “country subdivision codes”. I haven’t found the term “sub-national place name” in official ISO documents. So while it’s clear what is meant – it’s not ISO language. So the targeted strings are in my mind: “Country Subdivision Names” – and usually that column is always called “Subdivision Name”. We might want to consider to not use “sub-national place name” in the AGB anymore.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Alexander
-----Original Message----- From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Jaap Akkerhuis Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2018 3:36 PM To: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items -- remarks about ISO 3166 terminology used
A quick scan of the working document shows rather inconsistent use of ISO 3166 related terms.
Quite some of these uses stem from citing the AGB. There is not a lot to do about that, we should not change history too much. But for the current document we could do better I hope.
Often one reads things like "codes listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard".
What really is meant here is "codes listed in the standard ISO 3166 Part 2". What makes this important is that people are confusing the -2 suffix with the length of the code. We should be more careful in using proper terminology and if one wants to use "3166-1" as a shortcut for "ISO 3166 Part 2" it should somewhere be explained.
An example of unclear use is a sentence like:
"meaningful representations of a country or territory name on
the ISO 3166-2 standard"
What is really meant here? Country and territory names appear in ISO
3166 Part one, ISO 3166 Part 2 talks about subdivisions only. (It might be quoted from an old AGB so can't be changed, but it is still confusing),
Something like "ISO 3166 3-letter codes, country subdivisions (3166 Alpha-2)" becomes quite confusing very fast. in general ISO talks about alpha-3 etc. codes and 3166 Part 1 had alpha-2 and alpha-3 codes. ISO 3166 Part 2 is about codes for subdivision codes. These codes are not related to the alpha-3 codes of Part 1 but consist of
alpha-2 codes from part 1 followed by "up to 3 characters".
The working document talks about alpha-3 or 2 codes, 2/3 characters, and 2/3 letter codes etc. Most times they seem to be used denoting the same but I'm not always when non-ASCII codes are involved.
I know, it is hard to be consistent it the terminology but it is worth the effort.
jaap
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Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org
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I agree with Justine and others with regards to ensuring that the AGB includes clear definitions with examples to ensure that there is greater understanding of the terms, especially for newcomers to the process. On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 7:25 PM, Justine Chew <justine.chew@gmail.com> wrote:
I am in agreement with Jaap, Nick and Alexander on the need for the AGB to contain accurate terms to represent things found externally (such as the ISO 3166-1 and ISO 3166-2 standards) and to be consistent throughout when referring to the same.
Like you, Alexander, I also usually find it useful to tack on an example as a way to reinforce understanding, so perhaps WT5 should consider including an example of each by inserting the first entry of each standard for each of (i) to (iv) in 2.2.1.4.1 and 2.2.1.4.2 (3) (and wherever else is appropriate). After all, examples were included to explain the concept of transposition.
Regards,
Justine -----
On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 at 00:42, Alexander Schubert <alexander@schubert.berlin> wrote:
Jaap,
I agree, and therefore I for example usually always try to use these terms:
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 Codes*
o these are the 2-letter codes used for ccTLDs, like “DE” for Germany
o these are in Part 1 of “ISO 3166”
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-3 Codes*
o these are the 3-letter codes for countries like “DEU” for Germany
o these are also in Part 1 of “ISO 3166”
· *ISO 3166-2 Country Subdivision Names *(NOT the “codes”!)
o These are usually states, provinces, districts, etc
o these are in Part 2 of “ISO 3166”
The “ISO 3166-2 Country Subdivisions” also have “codes” – but we do not protect the CODES but rather the NAMES! Example: There is a subdivision “Bayern” in Germany (Bavaria). The “code” is “DE-BY”. But that’s not what we protect. We protect the NAME itself: “Bayern”.
It’s one thing how people call these in our working emails. And you are right: we should all be very precise. But we WT members usually know what is meant. When it comes to the AGB we really need to be SUPER precise – and very consistent! So my suggestion for the use in the AGB:
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 Codes (alternatively: “alpha-2 codes listed in the ISO 3166-1 standard”)*
o the 2-letter country codes of ISO 3166 Part 1
o these are real “codes” and not “names”
· *ISO 3166 -1 Alpha-3 Codes (alternatively: “alpha-3 codes listed in the ISO 3166-1 standard”)*
o the 3-letter country codes of ISO 3166 Part 1
o these are real “codes” and not “names”
· *ISO 3166 -2 Country Subdivision Names (alternatively: “country subdivision names listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard”)*
o Officially called “principal subdivisions of countries“ and located in ISO 3166 Part 2
o Again: here we target the NAME – not the “code” (we target “Bayern” and not “DE-BY”) – hence we do not say “Country Subdivision Codes” but “Country Subdivision Names”.
The 2012 AGB uses “*sub-national place name, such as a county, province, or state, listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard*” in section 2.2.1.4.2 (3) when it refers to “ISO 3166 -2 Country Subdivision Names”. ISO calls the CODES (which is not what we want to protect) “codes for identifying principal subdivisions of countries” and in other places “country subdivision codes”. I haven’t found the term “sub-national place name” in official ISO documents. So while it’s clear what is meant – it’s not ISO language. So the targeted strings are in my mind: “Country Subdivision Names” – and usually that column is always called “Subdivision Name”. We might want to consider to not use “sub-national place name” in the AGB anymore.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Alexander
-----Original Message----- From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Jaap Akkerhuis Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2018 3:36 PM To: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items -- remarks about ISO 3166 terminology used
A quick scan of the working document shows rather inconsistent use of ISO 3166 related terms.
Quite some of these uses stem from citing the AGB. There is not a lot to do about that, we should not change history too much. But for the current document we could do better I hope.
Often one reads things like "codes listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard".
What really is meant here is "codes listed in the standard ISO 3166 Part 2". What makes this important is that people are confusing the -2 suffix with the length of the code. We should be more careful in using proper terminology and if one wants to use "3166-1" as a shortcut for "ISO 3166 Part 2" it should somewhere be explained.
An example of unclear use is a sentence like:
"meaningful representations of a country or territory name on
the ISO 3166-2 standard"
What is really meant here? Country and territory names appear in ISO
3166 Part one, ISO 3166 Part 2 talks about subdivisions only. (It might be quoted from an old AGB so can't be changed, but it is still confusing),
Something like "ISO 3166 3-letter codes, country subdivisions (3166 Alpha-2)" becomes quite confusing very fast. in general ISO talks about alpha-3 etc. codes and 3166 Part 1 had alpha-2 and alpha-3 codes. ISO 3166 Part 2 is about codes for subdivision codes. These codes are not related to the alpha-3 codes of Part 1 but consist of
alpha-2 codes from part 1 followed by "up to 3 characters".
The working document talks about alpha-3 or 2 codes, 2/3 characters, and 2/3 letter codes etc. Most times they seem to be used denoting the same but I'm not always when non-ASCII codes are involved.
I know, it is hard to be consistent it the terminology but it is worth the effort.
jaap
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Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 _______________________________________________ Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
_______________________________________________ Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
Thanks for your contributions! Javier On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 1:49 AM Maureen Hilyard <maureen.hilyard@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with Justine and others with regards to ensuring that the AGB includes clear definitions with examples to ensure that there is greater understanding of the terms, especially for newcomers to the process.
On Wed, Sep 5, 2018 at 7:25 PM, Justine Chew <justine.chew@gmail.com> wrote:
I am in agreement with Jaap, Nick and Alexander on the need for the AGB to contain accurate terms to represent things found externally (such as the ISO 3166-1 and ISO 3166-2 standards) and to be consistent throughout when referring to the same.
Like you, Alexander, I also usually find it useful to tack on an example as a way to reinforce understanding, so perhaps WT5 should consider including an example of each by inserting the first entry of each standard for each of (i) to (iv) in 2.2.1.4.1 and 2.2.1.4.2 (3) (and wherever else is appropriate). After all, examples were included to explain the concept of transposition.
Regards,
Justine -----
On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 at 00:42, Alexander Schubert <alexander@schubert.berlin> wrote:
Jaap,
I agree, and therefore I for example usually always try to use these terms:
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 Codes*
o these are the 2-letter codes used for ccTLDs, like “DE” for Germany
o these are in Part 1 of “ISO 3166”
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-3 Codes*
o these are the 3-letter codes for countries like “DEU” for Germany
o these are also in Part 1 of “ISO 3166”
· *ISO 3166-2 Country Subdivision Names *(NOT the “codes”!)
o These are usually states, provinces, districts, etc
o these are in Part 2 of “ISO 3166”
The “ISO 3166-2 Country Subdivisions” also have “codes” – but we do not protect the CODES but rather the NAMES! Example: There is a subdivision “Bayern” in Germany (Bavaria). The “code” is “DE-BY”. But that’s not what we protect. We protect the NAME itself: “Bayern”.
It’s one thing how people call these in our working emails. And you are right: we should all be very precise. But we WT members usually know what is meant. When it comes to the AGB we really need to be SUPER precise – and very consistent! So my suggestion for the use in the AGB:
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 Codes (alternatively: “alpha-2 codes listed in the ISO 3166-1 standard”)*
o the 2-letter country codes of ISO 3166 Part 1
o these are real “codes” and not “names”
· *ISO 3166 -1 Alpha-3 Codes (alternatively: “alpha-3 codes listed in the ISO 3166-1 standard”)*
o the 3-letter country codes of ISO 3166 Part 1
o these are real “codes” and not “names”
· *ISO 3166 -2 Country Subdivision Names (alternatively: “country subdivision names listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard”)*
o Officially called “principal subdivisions of countries“ and located in ISO 3166 Part 2
o Again: here we target the NAME – not the “code” (we target “Bayern” and not “DE-BY”) – hence we do not say “Country Subdivision Codes” but “Country Subdivision Names”.
The 2012 AGB uses “*sub-national place name, such as a county, province, or state, listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard*” in section 2.2.1.4.2 (3) when it refers to “ISO 3166 -2 Country Subdivision Names”. ISO calls the CODES (which is not what we want to protect) “codes for identifying principal subdivisions of countries” and in other places “country subdivision codes”. I haven’t found the term “sub-national place name” in official ISO documents. So while it’s clear what is meant – it’s not ISO language. So the targeted strings are in my mind: “Country Subdivision Names” – and usually that column is always called “Subdivision Name”. We might want to consider to not use “sub-national place name” in the AGB anymore.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Alexander
-----Original Message----- From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Jaap Akkerhuis Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2018 3:36 PM To: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items -- remarks about ISO 3166 terminology used
A quick scan of the working document shows rather inconsistent use of ISO 3166 related terms.
Quite some of these uses stem from citing the AGB. There is not a lot to do about that, we should not change history too much. But for the current document we could do better I hope.
Often one reads things like "codes listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard".
What really is meant here is "codes listed in the standard ISO 3166 Part 2". What makes this important is that people are confusing the -2 suffix with the length of the code. We should be more careful in using proper terminology and if one wants to use "3166-1" as a shortcut for "ISO 3166 Part 2" it should somewhere be explained.
An example of unclear use is a sentence like:
"meaningful representations of a country or territory name on
the ISO 3166-2 standard"
What is really meant here? Country and territory names appear in ISO
3166 Part one, ISO 3166 Part 2 talks about subdivisions only. (It might be quoted from an old AGB so can't be changed, but it is still confusing),
Something like "ISO 3166 3-letter codes, country subdivisions (3166 Alpha-2)" becomes quite confusing very fast. in general ISO talks about alpha-3 etc. codes and 3166 Part 1 had alpha-2 and alpha-3 codes. ISO 3166 Part 2 is about codes for subdivision codes. These codes are not related to the alpha-3 codes of Part 1 but consist of
alpha-2 codes from part 1 followed by "up to 3 characters".
The working document talks about alpha-3 or 2 codes, 2/3 characters, and 2/3 letter codes etc. Most times they seem to be used denoting the same but I'm not always when non-ASCII codes are involved.
I know, it is hard to be consistent it the terminology but it is worth the effort.
jaap
_______________________________________________
Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list
Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 _______________________________________________ Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 mailing list Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5
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I agree. Following the same idea suggested I would expect to see a Glossary of terms with clear examples that relate to all specific / technical terms used in the AGB. It is feasible that some applicants will not have the adequate knowledge, without professional aid to deal every requirement. I am also presuming that some introductory procedural visual diagram will be included, as part of the guiding process for applicants. [image: photo] *Alfredo Calderon* eLearning Consultant calderon.alfredo@gmail.com http://aprendizajedistancia.blogspot.com | Skype: Alfredo_1212 <#> | wiseintro.co/alfredocalderon <http://facebook.com/calderon.alfredo> <http://pr.linkedin.com/in/acalderon52> <http://twitter.com/acalderon52> <http://plus.google.com/u/0/103289446075444313762/posts> <http://www.pinterest.com/acalderon/> <http://www.slideshare.net/acalderon> <http://klout.com/#/acalderon52> <http://wiseintro.co/alfredocalderon> <https://youtu.be/Rxqeb-YwlD4> Día Internet en PR IMPORTANT: The contents of this email and any attachments are confidential. They are intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you have received this email by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to anyone or make copies thereof. Get your own email signature <https://www.wisestamp.com/signature-in-email?utm_source=promotion&utm_medium...> On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 at 01:26, Justine Chew <justine.chew@gmail.com> wrote:
I am in agreement with Jaap, Nick and Alexander on the need for the AGB to contain accurate terms to represent things found externally (such as the ISO 3166-1 and ISO 3166-2 standards) and to be consistent throughout when referring to the same.
Like you, Alexander, I also usually find it useful to tack on an example as a way to reinforce understanding, so perhaps WT5 should consider including an example of each by inserting the first entry of each standard for each of (i) to (iv) in 2.2.1.4.1 and 2.2.1.4.2 (3) (and wherever else is appropriate). After all, examples were included to explain the concept of transposition.
Regards,
Justine -----
On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 at 00:42, Alexander Schubert <alexander@schubert.berlin> wrote:
Jaap,
I agree, and therefore I for example usually always try to use these terms:
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 Codes*
o these are the 2-letter codes used for ccTLDs, like “DE” for Germany
o these are in Part 1 of “ISO 3166”
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-3 Codes*
o these are the 3-letter codes for countries like “DEU” for Germany
o these are also in Part 1 of “ISO 3166”
· *ISO 3166-2 Country Subdivision Names *(NOT the “codes”!)
o These are usually states, provinces, districts, etc
o these are in Part 2 of “ISO 3166”
The “ISO 3166-2 Country Subdivisions” also have “codes” – but we do not protect the CODES but rather the NAMES! Example: There is a subdivision “Bayern” in Germany (Bavaria). The “code” is “DE-BY”. But that’s not what we protect. We protect the NAME itself: “Bayern”.
It’s one thing how people call these in our working emails. And you are right: we should all be very precise. But we WT members usually know what is meant. When it comes to the AGB we really need to be SUPER precise – and very consistent! So my suggestion for the use in the AGB:
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 Codes (alternatively: “alpha-2 codes listed in the ISO 3166-1 standard”)*
o the 2-letter country codes of ISO 3166 Part 1
o these are real “codes” and not “names”
· *ISO 3166 -1 Alpha-3 Codes (alternatively: “alpha-3 codes listed in the ISO 3166-1 standard”)*
o the 3-letter country codes of ISO 3166 Part 1
o these are real “codes” and not “names”
· *ISO 3166 -2 Country Subdivision Names (alternatively: “country subdivision names listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard”)*
o Officially called “principal subdivisions of countries“ and located in ISO 3166 Part 2
o Again: here we target the NAME – not the “code” (we target “Bayern” and not “DE-BY”) – hence we do not say “Country Subdivision Codes” but “Country Subdivision Names”.
The 2012 AGB uses “*sub-national place name, such as a county, province, or state, listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard*” in section 2.2.1.4.2 (3) when it refers to “ISO 3166 -2 Country Subdivision Names”. ISO calls the CODES (which is not what we want to protect) “codes for identifying principal subdivisions of countries” and in other places “country subdivision codes”. I haven’t found the term “sub-national place name” in official ISO documents. So while it’s clear what is meant – it’s not ISO language. So the targeted strings are in my mind: “Country Subdivision Names” – and usually that column is always called “Subdivision Name”. We might want to consider to not use “sub-national place name” in the AGB anymore.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Alexander
-----Original Message----- From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Jaap Akkerhuis Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2018 3:36 PM To: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items -- remarks about ISO 3166 terminology used
A quick scan of the working document shows rather inconsistent use of ISO 3166 related terms.
Quite some of these uses stem from citing the AGB. There is not a lot to do about that, we should not change history too much. But for the current document we could do better I hope.
Often one reads things like "codes listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard".
What really is meant here is "codes listed in the standard ISO 3166 Part 2". What makes this important is that people are confusing the -2 suffix with the length of the code. We should be more careful in using proper terminology and if one wants to use "3166-1" as a shortcut for "ISO 3166 Part 2" it should somewhere be explained.
An example of unclear use is a sentence like:
"meaningful representations of a country or territory name on
the ISO 3166-2 standard"
What is really meant here? Country and territory names appear in ISO
3166 Part one, ISO 3166 Part 2 talks about subdivisions only. (It might be quoted from an old AGB so can't be changed, but it is still confusing),
Something like "ISO 3166 3-letter codes, country subdivisions (3166 Alpha-2)" becomes quite confusing very fast. in general ISO talks about alpha-3 etc. codes and 3166 Part 1 had alpha-2 and alpha-3 codes. ISO 3166 Part 2 is about codes for subdivision codes. These codes are not related to the alpha-3 codes of Part 1 but consist of
alpha-2 codes from part 1 followed by "up to 3 characters".
The working document talks about alpha-3 or 2 codes, 2/3 characters, and 2/3 letter codes etc. Most times they seem to be used denoting the same but I'm not always when non-ASCII codes are involved.
I know, it is hard to be consistent it the terminology but it is worth the effort.
jaap
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Thanks, Alfredo, for your comment. Javier On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 7:28 AM Alfredo Calderon <calderon.alfredo@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree. Following the same idea suggested I would expect to see a Glossary of terms with clear examples that relate to all specific / technical terms used in the AGB. It is feasible that some applicants will not have the adequate knowledge, without professional aid to deal every requirement. I am also presuming that some introductory procedural visual diagram will be included, as part of the guiding process for applicants.
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On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 at 01:26, Justine Chew <justine.chew@gmail.com> wrote:
I am in agreement with Jaap, Nick and Alexander on the need for the AGB to contain accurate terms to represent things found externally (such as the ISO 3166-1 and ISO 3166-2 standards) and to be consistent throughout when referring to the same.
Like you, Alexander, I also usually find it useful to tack on an example as a way to reinforce understanding, so perhaps WT5 should consider including an example of each by inserting the first entry of each standard for each of (i) to (iv) in 2.2.1.4.1 and 2.2.1.4.2 (3) (and wherever else is appropriate). After all, examples were included to explain the concept of transposition.
Regards,
Justine -----
On Thu, 6 Sep 2018 at 00:42, Alexander Schubert <alexander@schubert.berlin> wrote:
Jaap,
I agree, and therefore I for example usually always try to use these terms:
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 Codes*
o these are the 2-letter codes used for ccTLDs, like “DE” for Germany
o these are in Part 1 of “ISO 3166”
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-3 Codes*
o these are the 3-letter codes for countries like “DEU” for Germany
o these are also in Part 1 of “ISO 3166”
· *ISO 3166-2 Country Subdivision Names *(NOT the “codes”!)
o These are usually states, provinces, districts, etc
o these are in Part 2 of “ISO 3166”
The “ISO 3166-2 Country Subdivisions” also have “codes” – but we do not protect the CODES but rather the NAMES! Example: There is a subdivision “Bayern” in Germany (Bavaria). The “code” is “DE-BY”. But that’s not what we protect. We protect the NAME itself: “Bayern”.
It’s one thing how people call these in our working emails. And you are right: we should all be very precise. But we WT members usually know what is meant. When it comes to the AGB we really need to be SUPER precise – and very consistent! So my suggestion for the use in the AGB:
· *ISO 3166-1 Alpha-2 Codes (alternatively: “alpha-2 codes listed in the ISO 3166-1 standard”)*
o the 2-letter country codes of ISO 3166 Part 1
o these are real “codes” and not “names”
· *ISO 3166 -1 Alpha-3 Codes (alternatively: “alpha-3 codes listed in the ISO 3166-1 standard”)*
o the 3-letter country codes of ISO 3166 Part 1
o these are real “codes” and not “names”
· *ISO 3166 -2 Country Subdivision Names (alternatively: “country subdivision names listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard”)*
o Officially called “principal subdivisions of countries“ and located in ISO 3166 Part 2
o Again: here we target the NAME – not the “code” (we target “Bayern” and not “DE-BY”) – hence we do not say “Country Subdivision Codes” but “Country Subdivision Names”.
The 2012 AGB uses “*sub-national place name, such as a county, province, or state, listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard*” in section 2.2.1.4.2 (3) when it refers to “ISO 3166 -2 Country Subdivision Names”. ISO calls the CODES (which is not what we want to protect) “codes for identifying principal subdivisions of countries” and in other places “country subdivision codes”. I haven’t found the term “sub-national place name” in official ISO documents. So while it’s clear what is meant – it’s not ISO language. So the targeted strings are in my mind: “Country Subdivision Names” – and usually that column is always called “Subdivision Name”. We might want to consider to not use “sub-national place name” in the AGB anymore.
Thoughts?
Thanks,
Alexander
-----Original Message----- From: Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5 [mailto:gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Jaap Akkerhuis Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2018 3:36 PM To: gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-newgtld-wg-wt5] Notes and Action Items -- remarks about ISO 3166 terminology used
A quick scan of the working document shows rather inconsistent use of ISO 3166 related terms.
Quite some of these uses stem from citing the AGB. There is not a lot to do about that, we should not change history too much. But for the current document we could do better I hope.
Often one reads things like "codes listed in the ISO 3166-2 standard".
What really is meant here is "codes listed in the standard ISO 3166 Part 2". What makes this important is that people are confusing the -2 suffix with the length of the code. We should be more careful in using proper terminology and if one wants to use "3166-1" as a shortcut for "ISO 3166 Part 2" it should somewhere be explained.
An example of unclear use is a sentence like:
"meaningful representations of a country or territory name on
the ISO 3166-2 standard"
What is really meant here? Country and territory names appear in ISO
3166 Part one, ISO 3166 Part 2 talks about subdivisions only. (It might be quoted from an old AGB so can't be changed, but it is still confusing),
Something like "ISO 3166 3-letter codes, country subdivisions (3166 Alpha-2)" becomes quite confusing very fast. in general ISO talks about alpha-3 etc. codes and 3166 Part 1 had alpha-2 and alpha-3 codes. ISO 3166 Part 2 is about codes for subdivision codes. These codes are not related to the alpha-3 codes of Part 1 but consist of
alpha-2 codes from part 1 followed by "up to 3 characters".
The working document talks about alpha-3 or 2 codes, 2/3 characters, and 2/3 letter codes etc. Most times they seem to be used denoting the same but I'm not always when non-ASCII codes are involved.
I know, it is hard to be consistent it the terminology but it is worth the effort.
jaap
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participants (7)
-
Alexander Schubert -
Alfredo Calderon -
Jaap Akkerhuis -
Javier Rua -
Justine Chew -
Maureen Hilyard -
Nick Wenban-Smith