Dear all, Our sincerest apologies for the delay. This email was sent on the day of the PPSAI WG call, but we discovered today that there had been issues with Terri's email address, and so this did not get through. These issues have now been resolved, and we are terribly sorry for the inconvenience. Kind regards Nathalie Dear All, Please find the MP3 recording for the Privacy and Proxy Services Accreditation Issues PDP Working group call held on Tuesday 18 February 2014 at 15:00 UTC at: http://audio.icann.org/gnso/gnso-ppsa-20140218-en.mp3 On page: http://gnso.icann.org/en/group-activities/calendar#feb The recordings and transcriptions of the calls are posted on the GNSO Master Calendar page: http://gnso.icann.org/calendar/ Attendees: Luc Seufer - RrSG Volker Greimann - RrSG Maria Farrell - NCUC Graeme Bunton - RrSG Tim Ruiz - RrSG Sarah Wyld - no SOI as of yet David Heasley - IPC James Bladel - RrSG Steve Metalitz - IPC Osvaldo Novoa - ISPCP Valeriya Sherman - IPC Kathy Kleiman - RySGgr Justin Macey - BC Darcy Southwell - RrSG Carlton Samuels - ALAC Alex Deacon - IPC Ben Anderson - RrSG Todd Williams - IPC Don Moody - IPC Theo Geurts - RrSG Susan Prosser - RrSG Don Blumenthal - RySG Libby Baney - BC Michael Shoukry - BC Phil Marano - IPC Jim Bikoff - IPC Tatiana Khramstova - RrSG Griffin Barnett - IPC Apologies: Amr Elsadr - NCUC Tobias Sattler - RrSG Holly Raiche - ALAC Paul McGrady - IPC Gema Campillos - GAC Roy Balleste - NCUC ICANN staff: Marika Konings Mary Wong Margie Milam Amy Bivins Mike Zupke Joe Catapano Terri Agnew Nathalie Peregrine ** Please let me know if your name has been left off the list ** Mailing list archives: http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg/ Wiki page: https://community.icann.org/x/9iCfAg Thank you. Kind regards, Terri Agnew ------------------------------- Adobe Connect chat transcript for Tuesday 18 February 2014: Nathalie Peregrine:Dear all, welcome to the PPSAI WG call on February 18th 2014 at 1500 UTC Graeme Bunton:g'morning all Theo Geurts:gáfternoon ;) Maria Farrell 2:hi all Val Sherman:Griffin Barnett is also on call Mary Wong:We will announce more people joining the call in Adobe chat. Nathalie Peregrine:Libby Barnett has joined the call Nathalie Peregrine:Libby Baney, apologies Nathalie Peregrine:Don Moody and Carlton Samuels are also inn the AC room Carlton Samuels:Hi everybody Nathalie Peregrine:Susan Prosser is on the audio bridge Don Moody:Greetings Nathalie Peregrine:Tim Ruiz has joined the Ac room Nathalie Peregrine:Justin macy has joined the AC room Nathalie Peregrine:Osvaldo Novoa has joined the call Osvaldo Novoa:Hi everyone Terri Agnew:carlton samuels has joined the AC room steve metalitz:Template looks good to me, thanks staff. Don Blumenthal:Agreed Carlton Samuels:Not sure what happened but enabling audio seem to lose me audio, go figure. Can only restore by restarting Nathalie Peregrine:@ Carlton, we can dial out to you if you prefer Nathalie Peregrine:Michael Shoukry has joined the AC room Nathalie Peregrine:Phil Marano has joined the AC room Carlton Samuels:@Nathalie: No worry. If I need to say something I will make a specific request on chat Volker Greimann:how big was the sample and how were domain names selected for the study? Maria Farrell 2:there's quite an echo on steve's line Bladel:@maria: I don't hear it...maybe just on your line? Maria Farrell 2:oh, maybe so. I'm on the adobe connect. Maria Farrell 2:it's gone now in any case Tim Ruiz:Which of questions does Staff propose that this study helps to inform us? Maria Farrell 2:I'd support hearing about the misuse of whois, as long as we keep on track, time wise. Carlton Samuels:@Kathy: +1 to the CM Study. That would be much more useful to this part of the conversation Tim Ruiz:Did the full report give actual percentages instead of just "significant?" And does it compare that with the percentages of the universe of all domains as a whole? steve metalitz:Mary, the Whois Registrant ID study is the one that has teherelevant information. Tim Ruiz:The CMU study gets to why users may choose to use P/P services. Kathy Kleiman:Mary: I think the Misue of Whois Data study findings will be very useful to our work... Libby Baney:regarding the cited surveys and studies, could Staff send around links to each so WG members may read if desired? Carlton Samuels:@James: I agree that conserving the terms and condition of the RAA aso far as required. P/P Services are exit loops for alternate processing that must rejoin the main process to be useful. Hence the need for accreditation, the key requirement being a trust relationship Don Blumenthal:Links are on the wiki page Bladel:But that could change with market condidtions. Or if a large player (e.g. DomainsByProxy) changed its service model. Luc Seufer:How does one distinguish between a proxy and a privacy registration? Luc Seufer:(if you are netither the registrant nor the p/p provider) Carlton Samuels:@Luc: Apparently the steps in the "reveal " process Volker Greimann:privacy: hides some details but not others: Volker Greimann:proxy: hides all details Don Blumenthal:We can hear you Volker Volker Greimann:bloddy heck Tim Ruiz:Did we ask for a review of this study? Could we hold off on any more of these types of reviews until the WG decides what it needs to review and inform its work? Carlton Samuels:@Volker: To me its like po-tato and po-taa-to. Its the resulyts that matter. So for me, all that is a black box. I'm prepared to accept all so long as 1. The provider is accredited. 2. The provider accepts strict liability. All the details can be determined by the business moidel the provider adopts. Nathalie Peregrine:David Heasley is on the audio bridge Tim Ruiz:I think Privacy Services are harder to identify and usage is likely higher than any study has noted. Volker Greimann:agreed Carlton Samuels:I'm actually running a seminar so I'm back and forth...going forth now Kathy Kleiman:@Tim, do you think there is an issue/question of trying to figure out and find Privacy Service providers? Maria Farrell 2:Apart from the difference in the 'Reveal' side, is there any difference in how the two services are marketed? i.e. are proxy services sold as means to protect privacy, but we (ICANN) classify them as proxy services? Kathy Kleiman:@Tim, cont: are they (privacy service providers) likely to be more informal? Volker Greimann:ok, sounds good Tim Ruiz:@Kathy, they often use the actual beneficial user's name as the registrant but use other info for address, email, phone, etc. And even that info may be somewhat different for each name registered. Maria Farrell 2:that would be great, thanks Mary Volker Greimann:also: what is a "significant percentage"? 1%? 5%? 10? More? Volker Greimann:apologies, old hand Kathy Kleiman:@Tim, tx! Mary Wong:@Tim, staff was requested to present a short summary of the relevant Whois studies; based on comments on the charter questions it seemed that this particular study - despite its ultimate findiings - was of interest to the WG. Apologies that the prevalance question was not directly answered - as mentioned we will pull out the various studies and try to give a more prcecise report on the list. Don Blumenthal:Hmm. I'm not on mute Don Blumenthal:That's what was saying. steve metalitz 2:Of the 320 domain registrants coded as Privacy/Proxy service providers, only 10 were determined to beprivacy service providers. In other words, about 3 percent of domain registrants using a privacy or proxyservice used a privacy service steve metalitz 2:Source: http://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/whois/registrant-identification-summary-06fe... That was the draft report (on which cmments were filed) but the firgues might have changed in final? Tim Ruiz:@Steve, what was the methodology used? It can be very difficult to identify Privacy Service domains. Kathy Kleiman:Can we wait until there is more feedback?? Kathy Kleiman:I don't see a diversity of sources at this time. Mary Wong:@Steve, the final report states 20 privacy service providers out of 320. Mary Wong:The main figure, though, is that 6% of registrants using either Privacy pr Proxy services used a privacy service. Mary Wong:The dataset was based on a random sampling of 1600 domains across the top 5 gTLDs (with some adjustment for the .info and .biz domains) Graeme Bunton:only 1600! Mary Wong:Yes - that may be something for the WG to bear in mind. Mary Wong:@Graeme I'm happy to explain why we ended up at 1600 (has to do with earlier studies) Marika Konings:Also note that in certain cases comments may need to be redirected to other templates if deemed not specific to the question at hand Tim Ruiz:Perhaps we proceed with the concept that it is one accreditation for P/P providers. When we address something that should clearly warrant distinguishing a difference between them, we do. What I don't want to do is to just ignore the fact that Privacy type services exist. Nathalie Peregrine:Roy Balleste sends his apology for today's call Justin Macy:Sure I can talk about it. Justin Macy:Please give me a moment to cal in the audio bridg Don Blumenthal:Justin, jump in when you are on and someone has finished speaking. Kathy Kleiman:It seems to be me that privacy and proxy services are different. If anything, privacy services provide MORE information and therefore should probably have fewer obligations Maria Farrell 2:it may be taking justin some time to get on. I just did and was on hold for 3 mins Nathalie Peregrine:Justin ois not on the bridge yet steve metalitz 2:+1 @ Tim Tim Ruiz:In other words, this question will answer itself as we go. Marika Konings:Please send any proposed additions to the mailing list and specify to which charter question or sub-queston these relate so we can include it in the right palce. Val Sherman:+1 @Tim Bladel:Sorry, need to drop the call. Thanks everyone. Marika Konings:also, please include a link to your source so we can add that as well Justin Macy:Could we resend out the link for the Survey, for those who have not yet responded? steve metalitz 2:Perhaps add a question at the end of all future templates -- should the same standard apply to proxy srvices and privacy services? Marika Konings:https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/86N33WX Justin Macy:Thanks! Tim Ruiz:+1 Steve Maria Farrell 2:+1 steve, thanks Marika Konings:@Steve - noted. I'll add this to the next iteration. Kathy Kleiman:Good question, Steve -- with a "and why" added to the question Val Sherman:+1 @Steve and Kathy Maria Farrell 2:great call. thanks everyone. Tim Ruiz:Thx Don Graeme Bunton:thanks don Volker Greimann:prtfrct don Michael Shoukry:thanks everyone Phil Marano:Thanks everyone! Kathy Kleiman:Bye All! Luc Seufer:thank you Don Alex Deacon:bye! Theo Geurts:gáfternoon ;) Maria Farrell 2:hi all Val Sherman:Griffin Barnett is also on call Mary Wong:We will announce more people joining the call in Adobe chat. Nathalie Peregrine:Libby Barnett has joined the call Nathalie Peregrine:Libby Baney, apologies Nathalie Peregrine:Don Moody and Carlton Samuels are also inn the AC room Carlton Samuels:Hi everybody Nathalie Peregrine:Susan Prosser is on the audio bridge Don Moody:Greetings Nathalie Peregrine:Tim Ruiz has joined the Ac room Nathalie Peregrine:Justin macy has joined the AC room Nathalie Peregrine:Osvaldo Novoa has joined the call Osvaldo Novoa:Hi everyone Terri Agnew:carlton samuels has joined the AC room steve metalitz:Template looks good to me, thanks staff. Don Blumenthal:Agreed Carlton Samuels:Not sure what happened but enabling audio seem to lose me audio, go figure. Can only restore by restarting Nathalie Peregrine:@ Carlton, we can dial out to you if you prefer Nathalie Peregrine:Michael Shoukry has joined the AC room Nathalie Peregrine:Phil Marano has joined the AC room Carlton Samuels:@Nathalie: No worry. If I need to say something I will make a specific request on chat Volker Greimann:how big was the sample and how were domain names selected for the study? Maria Farrell 2:there's quite an echo on steve's line Bladel:@maria: I don't hear it...maybe just on your line? Maria Farrell 2:oh, maybe so. I'm on the adobe connect. Maria Farrell 2:it's gone now in any case Tim Ruiz:Which of questions does Staff propose that this study helps to inform us? Maria Farrell 2:I'd support hearing about the misuse of whois, as long as we keep on track, time wise. Carlton Samuels:@Kathy: +1 to the CM Study. That would be much more useful to this part of the conversation Tim Ruiz:Did the full report give actual percentages instead of just "significant?" And does it compare that with the percentages of the universe of all domains as a whole? steve metalitz:Mary, the Whois Registrant ID study is the one that has teherelevant information. Tim Ruiz:The CMU study gets to why users may choose to use P/P services. Kathy Kleiman:Mary: I think the Misue of Whois Data study findings will be very useful to our work... Libby Baney:regarding the cited surveys and studies, could Staff send around links to each so WG members may read if desired? Carlton Samuels:@James: I agree that conserving the terms and condition of the RAA aso far as required. P/P Services are exit loops for alternate processing that must rejoin the main process to be useful. Hence the need for accreditation, the key requirement being a trust relationship Don Blumenthal:Links are on the wiki page Bladel:But that could change with market condidtions. Or if a large player (e.g. DomainsByProxy) changed its service model. Luc Seufer:How does one distinguish between a proxy and a privacy registration? Luc Seufer:(if you are netither the registrant nor the p/p provider) Carlton Samuels:@Luc: Apparently the steps in the "reveal " process Volker Greimann:privacy: hides some details but not others: Volker Greimann:proxy: hides all details Don Blumenthal:We can hear you Volker Volker Greimann:bloddy heck Tim Ruiz:Did we ask for a review of this study? Could we hold off on any more of these types of reviews until the WG decides what it needs to review and inform its work? Carlton Samuels:@Volker: To me its like po-tato and po-taa-to. Its the resulyts that matter. So for me, all that is a black box. I'm prepared to accept all so long as 1. The provider is accredited. 2. The provider accepts strict liability. All the details can be determined by the business moidel the provider adopts. Nathalie Peregrine:David Heasley is on the audio bridge Tim Ruiz:I think Privacy Services are harder to identify and usage is likely higher than any study has noted. Volker Greimann:agreed Carlton Samuels:I'm actually running a seminar so I'm back and forth...going forth now Kathy Kleiman:@Tim, do you think there is an issue/question of trying to figure out and find Privacy Service providers? Maria Farrell 2:Apart from the difference in the 'Reveal' side, is there any difference in how the two services are marketed? i.e. are proxy services sold as means to protect privacy, but we (ICANN) classify them as proxy services? Kathy Kleiman:@Tim, cont: are they (privacy service providers) likely to be more informal? Volker Greimann:ok, sounds good Tim Ruiz:@Kathy, they often use the actual beneficial user's name as the registrant but use other info for address, email, phone, etc. And even that info may be somewhat different for each name registered. Maria Farrell 2:that would be great, thanks Mary Volker Greimann:also: what is a "significant percentage"? 1%? 5%? 10? More? Volker Greimann:apologies, old hand Kathy Kleiman:@Tim, tx! Mary Wong:@Tim, staff was requested to present a short summary of the relevant Whois studies; based on comments on the charter questions it seemed that this particular study - despite its ultimate findiings - was of interest to the WG. Apologies that the prevalance question was not directly answered - as mentioned we will pull out the various studies and try to give a more prcecise report on the list. Don Blumenthal:Hmm. I'm not on mute Don Blumenthal:That's what was saying. steve metalitz 2:Of the 320 domain registrants coded as Privacy/Proxy service providers, only 10 were determined to beprivacy service providers. In other words, about 3 percent of domain registrants using a privacy or proxyservice used a privacy service steve metalitz 2:Source: http://gnso.icann.org/en/issues/whois/registrant-identification-summary-06fe... That was the draft report (on which cmments were filed) but the firgues might have changed in final? Tim Ruiz:@Steve, what was the methodology used? It can be very difficult to identify Privacy Service domains. Kathy Kleiman:Can we wait until there is more feedback?? Kathy Kleiman:I don't see a diversity of sources at this time. Mary Wong:@Steve, the final report states 20 privacy service providers out of 320. Mary Wong:The main figure, though, is that 6% of registrants using either Privacy pr Proxy services used a privacy service. Mary Wong:The dataset was based on a random sampling of 1600 domains across the top 5 gTLDs (with some adjustment for the .info and .biz domains) Graeme Bunton:only 1600! Mary Wong:Yes - that may be something for the WG to bear in mind. Mary Wong:@Graeme I'm happy to explain why we ended up at 1600 (has to do with earlier studies) Marika Konings:Also note that in certain cases comments may need to be redirected to other templates if deemed not specific to the question at hand Tim Ruiz:Perhaps we proceed with the concept that it is one accreditation for P/P providers. When we address something that should clearly warrant distinguishing a difference between them, we do. What I don't want to do is to just ignore the fact that Privacy type services exist. Nathalie Peregrine:Roy Balleste sends his apology for today's call Justin Macy:Sure I can talk about it. Justin Macy:Please give me a moment to cal in the audio bridg Don Blumenthal:Justin, jump in when you are on and someone has finished speaking. Kathy Kleiman:It seems to be me that privacy and proxy services are different. If anything, privacy services provide MORE information and therefore should probably have fewer obligations Maria Farrell 2:it may be taking justin some time to get on. I just did and was on hold for 3 mins Nathalie Peregrine:Justin ois not on the bridge yet steve metalitz 2:+1 @ Tim Tim Ruiz:In other words, this question will answer itself as we go. Marika Konings:Please send any proposed additions to the mailing list and specify to which charter question or sub-queston these relate so we can include it in the right palce. Val Sherman:+1 @Tim Bladel:Sorry, need to drop the call. Thanks everyone. Marika Konings:also, please include a link to your source so we can add that as well Justin Macy:Could we resend out the link for the Survey, for those who have not yet responded? steve metalitz 2:Perhaps add a question at the end of all future templates -- should the same standard apply to proxy srvices and privacy services? Marika Konings:https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/86N33WX Justin Macy:Thanks! Tim Ruiz:+1 Steve Maria Farrell 2:+1 steve, thanks Marika Konings:@Steve - noted. I'll add this to the next iteration. Kathy Kleiman:Good question, Steve -- with a "and why" added to the question Val Sherman:+1 @Steve and Kathy Maria Farrell 2:great call. thanks everyone. Tim Ruiz:Thx Don Graeme Bunton:thanks don Volker Greimann:prtfrct don Michael Shoukry:thanks everyone Phil Marano:Thanks everyone! Kathy Kleiman:Bye All! Luc Seufer:thank you Don Alex Deacon:bye!