Hi Paul, thank you for your kind words. We are not that far apart, I also think the address in the whois should be accurate and functonal or result in a suspension of the domain if not. The only question is what happens beyond that. As a private domain owner: - Am I required to read a message directed to my whois address? No! - Am I allowed to auto-forward it to spam/trash? Yes! - Am I allowed to set up a gmail account for my whois that I never log into after I verify the address? Yes! We are no saying a p/p service should not look at its email. It should, in my view, forward all reasonable communications to the domain owner. But I do not see how this can be checked and enforced without compromising the identity of the registrant. Sure, ICANN could send the provider a request to show them he forwarded the mail, but that would mean revealing the registrant to ICANN. Less than ideal, IMHO. So realistically, for the sender there is no way of knowing if the underlying registrant has received the mail and ignored it, or if he has not received it. I realize this is less than satisfactory for the complainant to send a mail into a black hole, but what are the alternatives? Volker Am 05.12.2014 17:55, schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:
I would like to thank Volker, Luc and Michele for engaging in a robust dialogue on this issue. While I don't think they changed my mind that there should be an affirmative accreditation requirement for PP to ensure that the email address they publish in the WHOIS is functional which can be enforced by ICANN, I have appreciated the civil tone and willingness to share ideas. While I have to turn my attention to other matters now, I didn't want the dialogue to end without a note of thanks.
Best, Paul
-----Original Message----- From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 10:47 AM To: McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] @EXT RE: Continuing the discussion onhardbounces, and deciding on terminology
Hi Paul,
I do not agree that any risk is shifted, in fact the situation is exactly as it is now. Of course the p/p provider must have a working address in the whois, and the registrar must validate it and enforce its accuracy. What happens below that level is the obligation and responsibility of the p/p service. If the inaccurate address is that of the privacy service, you will get a bounce.
Volker
Am 05.12.2014 17:40, schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:
So the cleanup work is shifted to the registrars and the risk of non-information is shifted to the interested party all in order to avoid having a requirement that the PP service publish working email. If such a requirement were in place and the interested party gets a timely notice of non-delivery, then the interested party would know that the problem is with the underlying WHOIS information (assuming the PP service is a good actor). Absent the requirement, there is no way to know if the inaccurate email is at the publication level or the underlying customer data level.
This would be a great model for rogue PP services or PP services who are looking for registrars to hire more compliance staff so that they don't have to do so, but I'm not sure how the rest of the DNS ecosystem will feel about having all the risks and burdens shifted to them so that PP services don't have to publish accurate email information.
-----Original Message----- From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 10:32 AM To: McGrady, Paul D.; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] @EXT RE: Continuing the discussion onhardbounces, and deciding on terminology
Well, if he sees the bounce, the bounce notice may tell him where the bounce occured. If he does not see the bounce, he would not know whether the message reached the recipient or not, but then there is no way of changing that without compromising the privacy of the registrant. that does not change the fact that the obligation should be placed on the p/p provider to enforce accuracy of the underlying data.
VG
Am 05.12.2014 17:20, schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:
Thanks. How is the information about where the failure occurred made public such that the interested party knows to file a complaint with ICANN Compliance to be directed to the registrar or to be directed to the PP services?
-----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 10:13 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] @EXT RE: Continuing the discussion onhardbounces, and deciding on terminology
Depends.
If the email address listed in the whois fails, it is a whois failure so the registrar is the right point of contact. If the email bounces somewhere after the privacy service provider has forwarded it, i.e. the email address in the whois is correct, it becomes the obligation of the p/p service provider to ensure the underlying address is functional.
Volker
Am 05.12.2014 16:44, schrieb McGrady, Paul D.:
I wonder how other registrars would feel about that? What if there were an accredited privacy service that only put non-sense in email addresses and registrars spent their days responding to ICANN Compliance requests? The PP service would be shifting its costs to the registrars and the registrars would be getting nothing other than extremely manual, cost inefficient customers. What am I missing? I'd like to understand Luc's proposal.
Best, Paul
-----Original Message----- From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight [mailto:michele@blacknight.com] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 9:39 AM To: McGrady, Paul D.; Don Blumenthal; Luc SEUFER; Steven J. Metalitz Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] @EXT RE: Continuing the discussion onhardbounces, and deciding on terminology
I guess I'd say - yes There's already the requirement If you email thing@domain.tld and it bounces and that is the email address in whois then you can submit a whois accuracy complaint which will fall to the registrar who can then pass it to either the privacy service or the registrant (depending on what the relationships are .. )
-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press/ http://www.technology.ie/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
-----Original Message----- From: McGrady, Paul D. [mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com] Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 5:37 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Don Blumenthal; Luc SEUFER; Steven J. Metalitz Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] @EXT RE: Continuing the discussion onhardbounces, and deciding on terminology
Thanks. So is the suggestion that accuracy compliance related to whatever email PP services publish be redirected to registrars?
-----Original Message----- From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight [mailto:michele@blacknight.com] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 9:32 AM To: McGrady, Paul D.; Don Blumenthal; Luc SEUFER; Steven J. Metalitz Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] @EXT RE: Continuing the discussion onhardbounces, and deciding on terminology
Registrar
-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press/ http://www.technology.ie/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
-----Original Message----- From: McGrady, Paul D. [mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com] Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 5:30 PM To: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Don Blumenthal; Luc SEUFER; Steven J. Metalitz Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] @EXT RE: Continuing the discussion onhardbounces, and deciding on terminology
Thanks Michele. When you saw "we" do you mean registrar or privacy service?
-----Original Message----- From: Michele Neylon - Blacknight [mailto:michele@blacknight.com] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 9:25 AM To: McGrady, Paul D.; Don Blumenthal; Luc SEUFER; Steven J. Metalitz Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] @EXT RE: Continuing the discussion onhardbounces, and deciding on terminology
We've already dealt with this scenario with ICANN Compliance.
If the published email in whois leads to a bounced email we have to investigate it and fix it. The issue could be with the forwarding system or the receiving email on the far end - it doesn't matter which one it is. The obligation is the same
So I agree with Luc
Regards
Michele
-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting & Colocation, Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press/ http://www.technology.ie/ Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
-----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of McGrady, Paul D. Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 5:22 PM To: Don Blumenthal; Luc SEUFER; Steven J. Metalitz Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] @EXT RE: Continuing the discussion onhardbounces, and deciding on terminology
Correct. So all that ICANN Compliance could do is write to the PP service, which will in turn confirm that the email address published is accurate. Absent giving ICANN access to the underlying customer data and convincing them to get in the business of confirming that underlying customer data (unlikely!/unwanted?), Luc's model doesn't seem to work.
Best, Paul
-----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 9:19 AM To: Luc SEUFER; Steven J. Metalitz Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] @EXT RE: Continuing the discussion onhardbounces, and deciding on terminology
Luc,
It doesn't seem to me that you are referring to the typical privacy/proxy model. Services publish addresses that are owned by the p/p companies themselves and not ones, or aliases, that belong to service users.
Don
-----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Luc SEUFER Sent: Friday, December 5, 2014 9:48 AM To: Steven J. Metalitz Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] @EXT RE: Continuing the discussion onhardbounces, and deciding on terminology
Hello Steve,
I do understand that. But it doesn’t matter as when the registrar will verify the email address registered in the whois it will de facto verify the underlying one. So if the latter isn’t functioning the published one won’t be verified and the domain name deactivated.
If you take for example my own domain name for which I am using a poor man privacy service. The address I have published in the whois is junk@seufer.email<mailto:junk@seufer.email> which redirect to my actual email address. And as far as the registrar for my domain name is concerned, they verify the published address, they don’t care that it is forwarding to another one.
Luc
On 05 Dec 2014, at 15:22, Metalitz, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> wrote:
Luc, we are not talking here about the e-mail address published in Whois, but the one to which the p/p provider forwards the message that was sent to the e-mail address published in Whois.
Steve Metalitz
-----Original Message----- From: Luc SEUFER [mailto:lseufer@dclgroup.eu] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 9:14 AM To: Leaning, Richard Cc: Metalitz, Steven; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: @EXT RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Continuing the discussion on hardbounces, and deciding on terminology
Hello Richard
Yes, the registrant is ultimately responsible for maintaining its details current. But in case they fail to - whatever the reason - a complaint can be lodged to ICANN via this form https://forms.icann.org/en/resources/compliance/complaints/whois/inaccuracy-... and the registrars in charge of the domain name will have to take reasonable steps to investigate and if applicable correct the inaccurate data.
The fact that the registrant details are those of the PP provider doesn’t matter. The obligations of the registrars stemming from the RAA are the same.
Best Wishes,
Luc
// Luc Seufer Chief Legal Officer | EuroDNS
office: +352 26 37 25-166 mobile: +352 691 600 417 fax: +352 20 300 166 lseufer@eurodns.com<mailto:lseufer@eurodns.com><mailto:lseufer@eurod n s .com> | www.eurodns.com<http://www.eurodns.com><http://www.eurodns.com>
2, rue Léon Laval L-3372 Leudelange Luxembourg
On 05 Dec 2014, at 11:01, Leaning, Richard <Richard.Leaning@europol.europa.eu<mailto:Richard.Leaning@europol.europa.eu><mailto:Richard.Leaning@europol.europa.eu>> wrote:
Richard Leaning Cyber Community Engagement European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3) Europol
Mobile +44 (0) 7814744079 Office +31 70 3531630 Richard.leaning@europol.europa.eu<mailto:Richard.leaning@europol.eur o p a.eu><mailto:Richard.leaning@europol.europa.eu>
-----Original Message----- From: Leaning, Richard Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 11:00 AM W. Europe Standard Time To: 'Luc SEUFER'; 'Steven J. Metalitz' Cc: 'gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>' Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Continuing the discussion on hard bounces, and deciding on terminology
My understanding is that it's the registrant who is responsible to keep the WHOIS accurate, not the registrar. Which is the problem with the WHOIS. I know that's another conversation altogether.
Cheers
Dick
Richard Leaning Cyber Community Engagement European Cyber Crime Centre (EC3) Europol
Mobile +44 (0) 7814744079 Office +31 70 3531630 Richard.leaning@europol.europa.eu<mailto:Richard.leaning@europol.eur o p a.eu><mailto:Richard.leaning@europol.europa.eu>
-----Original Message----- From: Luc SEUFER [lseufer@dclgroup.eu<mailto:lseufer@dclgroup.eu><mailto:lseufer@dclg r o up.eu>] Sent: Friday, December 05, 2014 10:15 AM W. Europe Standard Time To: Steven J. Metalitz Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mail t o :gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Continuing the discussion on hard bounces, and deciding on terminology
But if the email address published in the whois is not functional, you would just need to report it to ICANN compliance which would then investigate and if need be have the applicable registrar update this record.
It seems to me rather more efficient than forcing the P/P provider to befriend its customers on skype. ;-)
Luc
On 04 Dec 2014, at 19:29, Metalitz, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com><mailto:met@msk.com>> wrote:
Exactly – if e-mail does not function, and there is some other way to contact them in order to relay the message, then the provider should use that other way, at least upon request. That’s all that we are asking for here.
From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces @ i cann.org><mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Stephanie Perrin Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 11:20 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mail t o :gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Continuing the discussion on hard bounces, and deciding on terminology
Thanks very much, this is extremely useful. As a representative of dumb users everywhere who are likely to be calling you in a blind panic many days after such an event occurs, I agree that the language we use, bouncing or otherwise, has to be crystal clear. It also has to take into account the possibility that users may designate some other way to contact them....a cell number, skype, etc. Cheers Stephanie On 14-12-02 1:28 PM, Christian Dawson wrote:
Colleagues,
I apologize for belaboring the point about ‘hard’ and ‘soft’ bounces when I know we’re not using that terminology, but I wanted to be delve deeper into that conversation to try to get us to acceptable terminology we CAN use. To do so, I want to explain further what I’m talking about.
As I stated on the call, my background is as a web hosting provider. Despite being a small business, I run a network with over a million domain names sitting somewhere on it, and about 517,000 individual mail accounts I am aware of. I want to be clear that the kinds of bounces I was talking about aren’t the kind when you give a bogus gmail or hotmail account. We’re talking about mail from independent resolvers that source back to an independent domain hosted on a server - the kind most often used by one of my web hosting customers, or a customer of that customer, or a customer of that customer of a customer, and so on.
There are tons of reasons for a permanent message failure in situations like these, a lot of them server conditions that are temporary in nature. There’s a good chart worth looking at here:
http://www.activecampaign.com/help/bounces-soft-bounce-vs-hard-bounc e /
I’m not a registrar, I’m a web hosting provider and a small business owner - so from my perspective I’m trying to make sure we adopt policies that will keep service tickets to a minimum. As a web hosting provider, I already incur a lot of support costs over the ICANN WHOIS validation process. Every week we have numerous customers who write us complaining of being ‘down’ because they missed an email and ended up getting their business presence suspended. I want to make sure that we adopt standards in a way that doesn’t disadvantage my customers or cause them to open service tickets that cost me money. I think getting the terminology right will be the best way to do that.
------------------------- Christian J. Dawson (703)847-1381 x 7120 Voice Chief Operations Officer, ServInt www.servint.net<http://www.servint.net/> dawson@servint.com<mailto:dawson@servint.com> (703)847-1383 Fax -------------------------
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-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.