Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan

Feb. 6, 2014

      Bob:

Without speaking for other service providers, there are currently ~4
million subscribers to our affiliated privacy service.  Just under half of
those indicate that they are a corporation or business. We employ a team
of full-time employees working continuously to detect and terminate bad
actors, and their estimates indicate the rate of abuse on our services is
less than 1% of all domains.

But even allowing for the hypothetical possibility that, at any given
moment, there are bad actors have not yet been exposed, then we could
generously allow that the true rate of abuse is double that amount, or 2%
of all domains.

Unless you have some factual basis for your claim that the legitimate
users are in the minority (meaning our service is harboring over 2 million
criminals and 1 million criminal organizations), then I recommend you walk
back some of that rhetoric.

You and  your organization are focused on the bad actors operating on the
Internet.  This is a noble cause, but it has skewed your perspective on
the actual scope of criminal/absuive users.

Thanks‹

J.

On 2/6/14, 8:28 , "Bob Bruen" <bruen@coldrain.net> wrote:
...
Hi Volker,
Agreed, but the distortion cannot be ignored. If we stopped doing things
because of problems, we not drive cars, fly airplanes, or probably walk
down a street. However, we have safety procedures in place for airplanes,
we force people to learn how to drive cars and we have police departments
to enforce public safety.
Usually in these circumstances, the problems are in the minority, whereas
in the privacy/protection space, it is inverted.
-bob
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014, Volker Greimann wrote:
...
And yet we should not let the bad apples dictate what services should
or shouldn't be available for
those who have a legitimate need. Legitimate need is just that:
legitimate...
Volker
I am in agreement with you. Based on years of practical
experience, the bad actors far
      outnumber those who have a legitimate need for anonimity.
--bob
On Thu, 6 Feb 2014, Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria wrote:
How far apart we are in this! As a provider offering that
option (reveal or
            abandon), it will attract political dissidents, persecuted
religious
            minorities, whistleblowers... but it must be aware that it
is luring into the
            service many wrongdoers, confidence tricksters, IPR pirate
sites, illegal
            gambling sites, child abusers, malware distributors and the
like. I´m not so
            sure it could claim it is not actively contributing to
unlawful activity.
            But´s that another story.
My point is that the mere possibility of offering that
option damps the
            ability of public authorities to protect public interests
and could be
            against the law. If, as most of you believe, the provider
should only process
            requests coming from a LEA within their jurisdiction,
requests aimed at
            dissidents, religious leaders ... would be stopped there.
I´ve discovered only yesterday that IP providers and
hosting services are
            acting sometimes as proxies for the real hosting service.
So, the business
            thrives and diversifies to the despair of LEAs.
Kind regards,
Gema
-----Mensaje original-----
            De: Wendy Seltzer [mailto:wendy@seltzer.com]
            Enviado el: miércoles, 05 de febrero de 2014 16:19
            Para: Michele Neylon - Blacknight; Volker Greimann;
Campillos Gonzalez, Gema
            Maria; Tim Ruiz; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
            Asunto: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan
On 02/05/2014 09:40 AM, Michele Neylon - Blacknight wrote:
                  Volker
Yeah - that's something I was very conscious of when
we discussed
                  this
                  in the EWG Simply pulling the service might not be
enough to
                  protect you as a provider .. and forcing all
providers into that
                  kind of situation seemed unreasonable . .
That's not universally true in the law. I'd argue that
under US law, there's
            no liability on a provider of domain registry services who
does not encourage
            or knowingly contribute to unlawful activity. [long
discussion of secondary
            liability elsewhere, including in past discussions of the
legal absurdity of
            3.7.7.3 ]
So providers should be permitted to take that view.
--Wendy
M
                  --
                  Mr Michele Neylon
                  Blacknight Solutions
                  Hosting & Colocation, Domains
                  http://www.blacknight.co/
                  http://blog.blacknight.com/
                  http://www.technology.ie
                  Intl. +353 (0) 59  9183072
                  Locall: 1850 929 929
                  Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090
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Company No.:
                  370845
-----Original Message-----
                  From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org
                  [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On
Behalf Of Volker
                  Greimann
                  Sent: Wednesday, February 5, 2014 1:49 PM
                  To: Wendy Seltzer; Campillos Gonzalez, Gema Maria;
Tim Ruiz;
                  gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
                  Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan
While I understand this concern from a privacy
standpoint, as a
                  service provider this is problematic as one needs to
be able to
                  point to the responsible party in case of legal
violations in
                  order to avoid culpability and liability.
Volker
Dear Wendy, Tim, Volker and Group,
As regards the last paragraph on Wendy´s
                              message...
I've proposed that registrants be offered
                              the choice between potential reveal and
                              potential termination of registration
                              (that choice could be offered up-front at
                              the time of registration, or at the time
                              of the identification request). For some
                              registrants, such as legitimate
                              whistleblowers whose anonymity for fear
                              of retaliation is more important than the
                              persistence of their domain identifier,
                              this choice may be important.  I hope
                              we're at least leaving the opportunity
                              for a compliant service to offer an
                              "unidentified de-registration" option,
                              even though we don't need to mandate it
                              for all.
I have deep concerns with offering such a
                              service. If the P&P service receives a
                              request to reveal the identity and
                              contact data of the registrant, I doubt
                              it can refuse to relay them on account of
                              the de-registration of the domain name
                              (which should be done through the
                              registrar). If the request comes from an
                              individual or organization holding a
                              legitimate interest, there may be
                              situations in which they would still be
                              entitled to get those data (I´m thinking
                              of a prospective file suit or
                              extrajudicial request for redress). But,
                              let us discuss thoroughly at the
                              appropriate time in the Work Plan.
I believe it should be legitimate to offer a
service
                        that has no
                        possibility of identifying the registrant.
Instead,
                        it has other
                        accountability, namely that the domain name
stops
                        resolving upon
                        receipt of a legitimate complaint. That's the
                        tradeoff I propose,
                        that there be some situations in which it is by
                        design impossible to
                        get the identification of the registrant, but
it's
                        also impossible to
                        keep the name in the face of a complaint.
--Wendy
Regards,
Gema
-----Mensaje original-----
                              De: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org
[mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org]
                              En nombre de Tim Ruiz
                              Enviado el: martes, 04 de febrero de 2014
                              16:58
                              Para: Wendy Seltzer; Volker Greimann;
                              gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
                              Asunto: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI
                              Work Plan
Wendy, I believe Kathy made sure that was
                              captured in our call today.
                              ________________________________________
                              From:
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces
                              @
                              icann.org>
<gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounce
                              s @icann.org>> on behalf of Wendy Seltzer
<wendy@seltzer.com<mailto:wendy@seltzer.com>>
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 10:47 AM
                              To: Volker Greimann;
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
                              Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI
                              Work Plan
On 01/30/2014 09:13 AM, Volker Greimann
                              wrote:
                                    Hi Gema,
One note to Main issue 3 as
                                    it is proposed: This assumes
                                    that the
                                    provider has that kind of
                                    access or ability. In many
                                    cases, the
                                    privacy service just allows
                                    for the provision of its data
                                    and acts
                                    as a forwarding service. In
                                    the case of the provider
                                    affiliated
                                    with us, the provider has one
                                    ability only: Request the
                                    removal of
                                    its data from the whois.
                                    Other privacy services may
                                    have even less
                                    influence over the
                                    registration-
So requiring a takedown or
                                    disabling/terminating the
                                    registrants'
                                    access may not be something
                                    that a privacy or proxy
                                    service
                                    provider is set up to do,
                                    depending on how he is
                                    integrated with
                                    the
                                    registrar/reseller/registrant.
                                    In the past we have always
                                    talked about relay and
                                    reveal. These are
                                    the main opptions every
                                    provider should have in my
                                    opinion.
                                    Anything beyond that may not
                                    be feasible and may not even
                                    be in the remit of the
                                    provider.
If we're considering what should be
                              required of services under a new proposed
                              accreditation regime, then we should be
                              prepared to think of what the system
                              should have, not just what it can
                              currently accommodate.
I've proposed that registrants be offered
                              the choice between potential reveal and
                              potential termination of registration
                              (that choice could be offered up-front at
                              the time of registration, or at the time
                              of the identification request). For some
                              registrants, such as legitimate
                              whistleblowers whose anonymity for fear
                              of retaliation is more important than the
                              persistence of their domain identifier,
                              this choice may be important.  I hope
                              we're at least leaving the opportunity
                              for a compliant service to offer an
                              "unidentified de-registration" option,
                              even though we don't need to mandate it
                              for all.
--Wendy
Volker
Am 30.01.2014 13:09, schrieb
                                    Campillos Gonzalez, Gema
                                    Maria:
                                          Dear Group,
I have worked on
                                          the PPSAI Charter
                                          Questions
                                          Grouping and here
                                          you
                                          have the result.
Best regards,
Gema Campillos
Deputy Director
                                          of Information
                                          Society Services
Secretary of
                                          State for
                                          Telecommunications
                                          and Information
                                          Society
SPAIN
*De:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org
[mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org]
                                          *En nombre de
                                          *Mary
                                          Wong *Enviado
                                          el:* miércoles,
                                          29 de enero de
                                          2014 16:57
                                          *Para:*
gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
                                          *Asunto:* Re:
                                          [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg]
                                          PPSAI Work Plan
Dear Don, Jim and
                                          everyone,
One of the
                                          various items for
                                          consideration in
                                          developing the
                                          WG's
                                          Work Plan will
                                          involve the
                                          planned timing of
                                          deliverables
                                          relating
                                          to each category
                                          of questions
                                          (however many
                                          there ultimately
                                          are
                                          or whether each
                                          category is
                                          tackled by a
                                          different
                                          sub-team). The
                                          WG may wish to
                                          consider, for
                                          example, whether
                                          certain
                                          questions/categories
                                          need to be
                                          addressed before
                                          others.
Hopefully our
                                          next iteration of
                                          the Mind Map and
                                          proposed
                                          timeline/work
                                          plan will assist
                                          the WG in
                                          discussing Jim's
                                          suggestions,
                                          which reflects
                                          the methodology
                                          used in a couple
                                          of
                                          other WGs (and it
                                          is good to know
                                          that your team
                                          felt the IGO-INGO
                                          WG experience was
                                          productive and
                                          helpful, Jim!).
                                          The work plan is
                                          likely change
                                          over time
                                          depending on the
                                          nature and
                                          outcome of the
                                          WG (or
                                          sub-team)
                                          discussions, and
                                          as Jim notes
                                          certain
                                          categories (e.g.
                                          Main
                                          Issues) may be
                                          more organic than
                                          others.
Should the WG
                                          decide to proceed
                                          via sub-teams,
                                          another thing to
                                          consider would be
                                          ensuring that the
                                          work is spread
                                          evenly across
                                          the WG rather
                                          than have a small
                                          group of people
                                          spread across
                                          various sub-teams
                                          (especially if
                                          the deliverables
                                          from those are
                                          due in short
                                          order!).
I hope these
                                          thoughts are
                                          useful. To assist
                                          with your review
                                          of
                                          Jim's
                                          suggestions, I
                                          attach an updated
                                          version of Jim's
                                          document
                                          which adds the
                                          threshold
                                          question for
                                          Section III
                                          discussed on the
                                          call yesterday
                                          (using Steve's
                                          suggested
                                          wording) and with
                                          a couple
                                          of comments
                                          inserted to help
                                          provide context
                                          to one or two
                                          sub-questions
                                          that Kathy had
                                          asked about.
Thanks and cheers
Mary
Mary Wong
Senior Policy
                                          Director
Internet
                                          Corporation for
                                          Assigned Names &
                                          Numbers (ICANN)
Telephone: +1 603
                                          574 4892
Email:
mary.wong@icann.org<mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
                                          <mailto:mary.wong@icann.org>
* One World. One
                                          Internet. *
*From: *Don
                                          Blumenthal
                                          <dblumenthal@pir.org
                                          <mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>
                                          *Date:
                                          *Wednesday,
                                          January 29, 2014
                                          9:45 AM
                                          *To: *Jim Bikoff
                                          <jbikoff@sgbdc.com
<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com%20<mailto:jbiko
                                          f f@sgbdc.com>>>,
                                          "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org%2
0<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@
                                          icann.org>>"
                                          <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.
org%20<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>>>
                                          *Subject: *Re:
                                          [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg]
                                          PPSAI Work Plan
Jim,
Thanks very
                                          much for all the
                                          work you put in
                                          on this. I am
                                          very
                                               anxious to
                                          see the group's
                                          thoughts on it. I
                                          will reserve mine
                                          for
                                               now except
                                          to note that
                                          reviewing seven
                                          reports each week
                                          is
                                               inducing
                                          cold sweats
                                          already. :)
I will note
                                          up front though
                                          that apart from
                                          process
considerations,
                                          staff support
                                          availability will
                                          have to be part
                                          of
                                               our work
                                          plan decisions.
Best,
Don
*From: *Jim
                                          Bikoff
                                          <jbikoff@sgbdc.com
<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com%20<mailto:jbikoff@sgbd
c.com>>>
                                               *Date:
                                          *Tuesday, January
                                          28, 2014 at 6:04
                                          PM
                                               *To: *Don
                                          Blumenthal
                                          <dblumenthal@pir.org
<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>,
                                          PPSAI
                                          <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org
<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>>
                                               *Subject:
                                          *PPSAI Work Plan
Dear Don,
As you
                                          indicated, a Work
                                          Plan should help
                                          guide our Group's
                                               efforts over
                                          the upcoming
                                          weeks. We have
                                          some suggestions,
                                          based
                                               on our
                                          positive
                                          experience in the
                                          IGO/INGO PDP
                                          Working Group.
Please give
                                          us the benefit of
                                          your thoughts on
                                          the following
                                               suggested
                                          Work Plan:
1. Summarize
                                          and compile
                                          Working Group
                                          survey
                                               responses
                                          --possibly in an
                                          Excel file,
                                          circulated among
                                          Group
                                               members.
                                          This should be a
                                          task for ICANN
                                          Staff.
2.Based on
                                          Working Group
                                          survey responses,
                                          clarify the
                                          terminology
                                               and issues
                                          in each Group of
                                          the Charter
                                          questions.
                                          Identify
                                               consensus or
                                          near-consensus
                                          responses and
                                          hold Consensus
                                          Call on
                                               these
                                          issues.
3.Create
                                          Working Group 
                                          sub-teams to work
                                          on issues by
                                          group: (a)
Registration; (b)
                                          Maintenance; (c)
                                          Contact; (d)
                                          Relay; (e)
                                          Reveal;
                                               (f)
                                          Publication; (g)
                                          Termination. 
                                          Note that the
                                          current groupings
                                               of questions
                                          do not include
                                          "Publication" or
                                          "Termination"
                                               categories. 
                                          We propose adding
                                          these categories,
                                          which would
                                               include
                                          questions taken
                                          out of other
                                          current
                                          categories, as
                                               identified
                                          in the attached
                                          redline draft. 
                                          Note also that
                                          the
                                               remaining
                                          questions in the
                                          Main Issues
                                          group, an
                                          overarching
                                               category,
                                          would be
                                          addressed
                                          organically as a
                                          result of this
                                               proposed
                                          process.
a) Each
                                          sub-team produces
                                          a report, which
                                          is delivered to
                                          Don by
                                               each Friday
                                          or Saturday at
                                          the latest, so it
                                          can be combined
                                          by
                                               staff with
                                          the other
                                          sub-team reports
                                          and discussed at
                                          the
                                               upcoming
                                          Tuesday Working
                                          Group
                                          teleconference.
b) When the
                                          responses to the
                                          survey come in
                                          from the other
constituencies,
                                          ICANN staff
                                          summarizes the
                                          responses for the
                                               Working
                                          Group. Each
                                          sub-team then
                                          analyzes the
                                          constituencies'
                                          and
                                               Working
                                          Group's responses
                                          (including
                                          majority and
                                          minority
                                               views) in
                                          its area, and
                                          delivers the
                                          result to Don by
                                          Friday or
                                               Saturday, so
                                          ICANN staff can
                                          combine it all in
                                          one document,
                                          such
                                               as an Excel
                                          file, for full
                                          Working Group
                                          review.
4. Working
                                          Group holds
                                          Consensus Call
                                          and revises final
                                          Excel file
                                               of responses
                                          to survey
                                          accordingly.
5.Draft
                                          report presenting
                                          (1) Consensus
                                          Proposals (if
                                          any); (2)
Non-Consensus
                                          Proposals w/
                                          Levels of
                                          Support; (3)
                                          Minority Views
                                               w/Levels of
                                          Support.
6. Present
                                          Report for Public
                                          Comment.
This process
                                          will provide a
                                          means to circle
                                          back to the
                                          remaining
                                               Main Issues
                                          questions.
Regards,
Jim
James L.
                                          Bikoff
Silverberg,
                                          Goldman & Bikoff,
                                          LLP
1101 30th
                                          Street, NW
Suite 120
Washington,
                                          DC 20007
Tel:
                                          202-944-3303
Fax:
                                          202-944-3306
jbikoff@sgbdc.com<mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com>
                                          <mailto:jbikoff@sgbdc.com>
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Dr. Robert Bruen
Cold Rain Labs
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Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] PPSAI Work Plan

James M. Bladel