Hello, The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting. In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful. We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community. On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts. Thanks, Don
Hi Don, one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts. Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal:
Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
+1 -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.technology.ie<http://www.technology.ie/> http://www.blacknight.press<http://www.blacknight.press/> for all our news & media Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 9:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hi Don, one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts. Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello, The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting. In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful. We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community. On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts. Thanks, Don _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Volker, I understand the concern. It's been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE. Don From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hi Don, one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts. Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello, The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting. In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful. We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community. On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts. Thanks, Don _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group. From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Volker, I understand the concern. It's been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE. Don From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hi Don, one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts. Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello, The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting. In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful. We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community. On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts. Thanks, Don _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Hi Steve, while the question of the 2013 RAA may not be, the discussion of potential benefits that would counterbalance their asks very much is, IMHO. Volker Am 22.10.2014 16:15, schrieb Metalitz, Steven:
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Don Blumenthal *Sent:* Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM *To:* Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Volker,
Iunderstand the concern. It's been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
Don
*From:*gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] *On Behalf Of *Volker Greimann *Sent:* Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM *To:* gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> *Subject:* Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hi Don,
one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
Volker
Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal:
Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann - legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email:vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web:www.key-systems.net <http://www.key-systems.net> /www.RRPproxy.net <http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com <http://www.domaindiscount24.com> /www.BrandShelter.com <http://www.BrandShelter.com>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems <http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems <http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu <http://www.keydrive.lu>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
-- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net Web: www.key-systems.net / www.RRPproxy.net www.domaindiscount24.com / www.BrandShelter.com Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems www.twitter.com/key_systems CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Volker, My answer a few minutes ago was based on what I saw as the purpose for requesting a discussion of experience from the RAA. Asking for that in a focused context of showing benefits from being able to identify underlying registrants is one thing. Anything broader takes us out of scope. Don From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:19 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hi Steve, while the question of the 2013 RAA may not be, the discussion of potential benefits that would counterbalance their asks very much is, IMHO. Volker Am 22.10.2014 16:15, schrieb Metalitz, Steven: While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group. From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Volker, I understand the concern. It's been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE. Don From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hi Don, one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts. Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello, The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting. In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful. We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community. On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts. Thanks, Don _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP. In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc. Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach. Thanks— J. From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group. From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Volker, I understand the concern. It’s been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE. Don From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hi Don, one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts. Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello, The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we’ll move from here later in the week after some drafting. In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it’s time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won’t be neary has helpful. We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That’s not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community. On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts. Thanks, Don _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
James, I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don't see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered. Don From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP. In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc. Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach. Thanks- J. From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group. From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Volker, I understand the concern. It's been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE. Don From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hi Don, one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts. Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello, The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting. In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful. We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community. On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts. Thanks, Don _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
Don: Even if they raise new issues or rationales….then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictions…. Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort. Thanks— J. From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach James, I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don’t see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered. Don From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP. In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc. Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach. Thanks— J. From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group. From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Volker, I understand the concern. It’s been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE. Don From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hi Don, one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts. Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello, The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we’ll move from here later in the week after some drafting. In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it’s time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won’t be neary has helpful. We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That’s not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community. On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts. Thanks, Don _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
James,. Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard. Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward "requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal." From experience, I don't think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group. Don From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Don: Even if they raise new issues or rationales....then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictions.... Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort. Thanks- J. From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach James, I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don't see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered. Don From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP. In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc. Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach. Thanks- J. From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group. From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Volker, I understand the concern. It's been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE. Don From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hi Don, one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts. Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello, The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting. In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful. We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community. On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts. Thanks, Don _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc. But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations. https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recommendati... I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn’t seem wise to me. Thanks, Luc On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote: James,. Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard. Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward “requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal.” From experience, I don’t think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group. Don From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Don: Even if they raise new issues or rationales….then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictions…. Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort. Thanks— J. From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach James, I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don’t see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered. Don From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP. In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc. Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach. Thanks— J. From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group. From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Volker, I understand the concern. It’s been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE. Don From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hi Don, one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts. Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello, The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we’ll move from here later in the week after some drafting. In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it’s time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won’t be neary has helpful. We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That’s not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community. On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts. Thanks, Don _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone. _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg ________________________________ -------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You must not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone. Think of the environment: don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. --------------------------------------------------------
1. Totally agree with this statement. 2. If we attempt to engage with data protection authorities, they will look for the collection instrument and the elements of data controllership, which IMHO stem from the RAA. If the purpose of accreditation is to comply with a law enforcement request, that is an important factor in their evaluation also. 3. At the data protection/privacy panel we held in Istanbul at the IGF, Dick Leaning admitted that they had only asked for things, it was up to ICANN to decide whether or not to agree with the request. Unfortunately, IMHO, that decision was made without taking advice on data protection law, policy, and best practice. Not to mention constitutional protections in many states. I would suggest we not reach out to data protection authorities until we get this debate well sorted, ICANN cannot afford to lose credibility in public policy matters at this precise moment in time. NCSG has several candidates to suggest when that time comes... cheers Stephanie Perrin On 2014-10-22, 11:04, Luc SEUFER wrote:
I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.
But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recommendati...
I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn’t seem wise to me.
Thanks,
Luc
On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote:
James,.
Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.
Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward “requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal.” From experience, I don’t think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Don:
Even if they raise new issues or rationales….then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictions….
Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.
Thanks—
J.
From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
James,
I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don’t see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.
In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.
Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.
Thanks—
J.
From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Volker,
I understand the concern. It’s been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
Don
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hi Don,
one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we’ll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it’s time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won’t be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That’s not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You must not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone.
Think of the environment: don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
-------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Stephanie, First, I'm concerned that recent references to the 2013 RAA have started to skew our discussions generally. This WG is the result of that document but the interests represented on it are much broader. To your note, I don't follow the points about collection instrument or data controllership. As for accreditation being compliance with a law enforcement request, that's true only in a very narrow sense. Our work may be the result of RAA negotiations with LE but the concept of vetting p/p providers has been out there and supported by a broader set of interests since long before 2012. At the risk of being corrected by James and Volker, data protection laws, policies, and best practices weren't considered in any depth during RAA negotiations. The agreement called for the creation of this group precisely so that we could explore those questions and others adequately. If the WG wants a discussion led by DPA experts, we need to do it soon so that we include their viewpoints as part of establishing the initial set of preliminary conclusions that we will review before starting to write. The alternatives are late input that we are not offering to others, which I don't think is acceptable, or waiting until the public comment period after posting our draft report. Don -----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Stephanie Perrin Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 12:00 PM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach 1. Totally agree with this statement. 2. If we attempt to engage with data protection authorities, they will look for the collection instrument and the elements of data controllership, which IMHO stem from the RAA. If the purpose of accreditation is to comply with a law enforcement request, that is an important factor in their evaluation also. 3. At the data protection/privacy panel we held in Istanbul at the IGF, Dick Leaning admitted that they had only asked for things, it was up to ICANN to decide whether or not to agree with the request. Unfortunately, IMHO, that decision was made without taking advice on data protection law, policy, and best practice. Not to mention constitutional protections in many states. I would suggest we not reach out to data protection authorities until we get this debate well sorted, ICANN cannot afford to lose credibility in public policy matters at this precise moment in time. NCSG has several candidates to suggest when that time comes... cheers Stephanie Perrin On 2014-10-22, 11:04, Luc SEUFER wrote:
I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.
But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recomm endations-01mar12-en.pdf
I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn't seem wise to me.
Thanks,
Luc
On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote:
James,.
Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.
Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward "requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal." From experience, I don't think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Don:
Even if they raise new issues or rationales..then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictions..
Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.
Thanks-
J.
From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
James,
I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don't see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.
In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.
Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.
Thanks-
J.
From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-boun ces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Volker,
I understand the concern. It's been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
Don
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-boun ces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hi Don,
one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You must not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone.
Think of the environment: don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
-------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Ok, then I suggest we ask Sojera Nas. She works at the Dutch Data Protection authority, is their internet expert, and she spoke on the panel that Michele and I participated on at IGF. She supported Kohnstamm when he was head of the Article 29 working group, and is familiar with the letters that have been written to ICANN from that group. s.nas@cbpweb.nl Cheers Steph PS I can respond to your questions re collection instrument and data controllership, but would prefer to talk rather than type. Might take a while.... On 2014-10-27, 10:23, Don Blumenthal wrote:
Stephanie,
First, I'm concerned that recent references to the 2013 RAA have started to skew our discussions generally. This WG is the result of that document but the interests represented on it are much broader.
To your note, I don't follow the points about collection instrument or data controllership. As for accreditation being compliance with a law enforcement request, that's true only in a very narrow sense. Our work may be the result of RAA negotiations with LE but the concept of vetting p/p providers has been out there and supported by a broader set of interests since long before 2012.
At the risk of being corrected by James and Volker, data protection laws, policies, and best practices weren't considered in any depth during RAA negotiations. The agreement called for the creation of this group precisely so that we could explore those questions and others adequately. If the WG wants a discussion led by DPA experts, we need to do it soon so that we include their viewpoints as part of establishing the initial set of preliminary conclusions that we will review before starting to write. The alternatives are late input that we are not offering to others, which I don't think is acceptable, or waiting until the public comment period after posting our draft report.
Don
-----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Stephanie Perrin Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 12:00 PM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
1. Totally agree with this statement. 2. If we attempt to engage with data protection authorities, they will look for the collection instrument and the elements of data controllership, which IMHO stem from the RAA. If the purpose of accreditation is to comply with a law enforcement request, that is an important factor in their evaluation also. 3. At the data protection/privacy panel we held in Istanbul at the IGF, Dick Leaning admitted that they had only asked for things, it was up to ICANN to decide whether or not to agree with the request. Unfortunately, IMHO, that decision was made without taking advice on data protection law, policy, and best practice. Not to mention constitutional protections in many states. I would suggest we not reach out to data protection authorities until we get this debate well sorted, ICANN cannot afford to lose credibility in public policy matters at this precise moment in time. NCSG has several candidates to suggest when that time comes... cheers Stephanie Perrin On 2014-10-22, 11:04, Luc SEUFER wrote:
I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.
But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recomm endations-01mar12-en.pdf
I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn't seem wise to me.
Thanks,
Luc
On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote:
James,.
Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.
Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward "requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal." From experience, I don't think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Don:
Even if they raise new issues or rationales..then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictions..
Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.
Thanks-
J.
From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
James,
I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don't see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.
In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.
Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.
Thanks-
J.
From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-boun ces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Volker,
I understand the concern. It's been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
Don
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-boun ces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hi Don,
one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You must not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone.
Think of the environment: don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
-------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Hold on. This is a PDP on privacy/proxy services, not whois accuracy. Discussion and debates around the effectiveness of whois accuracy recommendations is clearly not in scope of this WG. Also, given the bottom up multistakeholder nature of ICANN can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur? We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks. While I understand why some would make this assumption I suggest its best to get their input on our current set of preliminary conclusions sooner rather than later. Alex
On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Luc SEUFER <lseufer@dclgroup.eu> wrote:
I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.
But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recommendati...
I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn’t seem wise to me.
Thanks,
Luc
On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote:
James,.
Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.
Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward “requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal.” From experience, I don’t think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Don:
Even if they raise new issues or rationales….then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictions….
Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.
Thanks—
J.
From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
James,
I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don’t see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.
In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.
Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.
Thanks—
J.
From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Volker,
I understand the concern. It’s been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
Don
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hi Don,
one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we’ll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it’s time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won’t be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That’s not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You must not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone.
Think of the environment: don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
-------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Agree with Alex. Thanks, Kiran Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415.222.8318 (t) 415.419.9138 (m) www.markmonitor.com -----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Alex_Deacon@mpaa.org Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:18 AM To: lseufer@dclgroup.eu Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hold on. This is a PDP on privacy/proxy services, not whois accuracy. Discussion and debates around the effectiveness of whois accuracy recommendations is clearly not in scope of this WG. Also, given the bottom up multistakeholder nature of ICANN can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur? We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks. While I understand why some would make this assumption I suggest its best to get their input on our current set of preliminary conclusions sooner rather than later. Alex
On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Luc SEUFER <lseufer@dclgroup.eu> wrote:
I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.
But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recommendati...
I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn't seem wise to me.
Thanks,
Luc
On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote:
James,.
Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.
Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward "requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal." From experience, I don't think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Don:
Even if they raise new issues or rationales..then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictions..
Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.
Thanks-
J.
From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
James,
I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don't see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.
In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.
Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.
Thanks-
J.
From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Volker,
I understand the concern. It's been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
Don
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hi Don,
one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You must not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone.
Think of the environment: don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
-------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Hi Alex, I agree with your point that "can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur?" -- I agree with can we as a "can we the WG decide" in that its up to the group. However, the point regarding "We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks." -- this is NOT an assumption, it's FACT, this has already happened before, you really do not need to look too far - just look at the RAA. LE will come in, state that they want to see X, Y and Z, they'll provide nothing to back up the "wants" with justification and statistics and then keep this WG active in discussion / disagreement for years to come. I agree with Volker, James and Luc. Kind regards,. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Deacon" <Alex_Deacon@mpaa.org> To: lseufer@dclgroup.eu Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Sent: Wednesday, 22 October, 2014 6:17:48 PM Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hold on. This is a PDP on privacy/proxy services, not whois accuracy. Discussion and debates around the effectiveness of whois accuracy recommendations is clearly not in scope of this WG. Also, given the bottom up multistakeholder nature of ICANN can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur? We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks. While I understand why some would make this assumption I suggest its best to get their input on our current set of preliminary conclusions sooner rather than later. Alex
On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Luc SEUFER <lseufer@dclgroup.eu> wrote:
I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.
But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recommendati...
I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn’t seem wise to me.
Thanks,
Luc
On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote:
James,.
Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.
Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward “requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal.” From experience, I don’t think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Don:
Even if they raise new issues or rationales….then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictions….
Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.
Thanks—
J.
From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
James,
I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don’t see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.
In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.
Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.
Thanks—
J.
From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Volker,
I understand the concern. It’s been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
Don
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hi Don,
one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we’ll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it’s time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won’t be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That’s not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You must not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone.
Think of the environment: don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
-------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Just to clarify: I¹m fine with including any stakeholder that wants to contribute, including LEA. I am simply opposed to creating special provisions for dealing with (or conversely, limiting) LEA requests, aside from maintaining a point of contact and a duty to investigate. Because, at the end of the day, LEA actions will be governed by local law and ICANN policies/accreditation requirements will be set aside. Thanks‹ J. On 10/22/14, 12:56 , "Chris Pelling" <chris@netearthone.com> wrote:
Hi Alex,
I agree with your point that "can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur?" -- I agree with can we as a "can we the WG decide" in that its up to the group.
However, the point regarding "We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks." -- this is NOT an assumption, it's FACT, this has already happened before, you really do not need to look too far - just look at the RAA.
LE will come in, state that they want to see X, Y and Z, they'll provide nothing to back up the "wants" with justification and statistics and then keep this WG active in discussion / disagreement for years to come.
I agree with Volker, James and Luc.
Kind regards,. Chris
----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Deacon" <Alex_Deacon@mpaa.org> To: lseufer@dclgroup.eu Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Sent: Wednesday, 22 October, 2014 6:17:48 PM Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hold on. This is a PDP on privacy/proxy services, not whois accuracy. Discussion and debates around the effectiveness of whois accuracy recommendations is clearly not in scope of this WG.
Also, given the bottom up multistakeholder nature of ICANN can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur? We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks. While I understand why some would make this assumption I suggest its best to get their input on our current set of preliminary conclusions sooner rather than later.
Alex
On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Luc SEUFER <lseufer@dclgroup.eu> wrote:
I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.
But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recommend ations-01mar12-en.pdf
I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn¹t seem wise to me.
Thanks,
Luc
On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote:
James,.
Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.
Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward ³requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal.² From experience, I don¹t think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Don:
Even if they raise new issues or rationalesŠ.then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictionsŠ.
Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.
Thanks‹
J.
From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
James,
I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don¹t see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.
In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.
Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.
Thanks‹
J.
From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces @icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Volker,
I understand the concern. It¹s been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
Don
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces @icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hi Don,
one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we¹ll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it¹s time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won¹t be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That¹s not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You must not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone.
Think of the environment: don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
-------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Dear all, Just FYI that the GNSO Working Group Guidelines envisages a WG possibly seeking input from subject matter experts, whether individuals or entities, as warranted by the particular circumstances and deliberations of each WG. For instance, Section 4.4, titled “Briefings and Subject Matter Experts”, provides that - "If the WG determines that it needs additional educational briefings occurring upfront or as issues emerge during deliberations, it should identify its specific requests to the [Chartering Organization, i.e. GNSO Council] including subject matter(s), type(s)of expertise, objectives, and costs … Additionally, a WG may, at any stage throughout its deliberations, decide to seek input from self-formed groups and/or individuals with the aim of further informing WG members about matters that fall within the remit of the WG and which are of interest to the ICANN community." I believe this is what Don had in mind, considering that at this stage in our deliberations there is the possibility that certain types of requests - such as those from LEA, consumer protection agencies, anti-abuse groups etc. - might be distinguishable (and hence possibly meriting different standards/treatment) than requests from other third parties. Cheers Mary Mary Wong Senior Policy Director Internet Corporation for Assigned Names & Numbers (ICANN) Telephone: +1 603 574 4892 Email: mary.wong@icann.org -----Original Message----- From: "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 2:02 PM To: Chris Pelling <chris@netearthone.com>, Alex Deacon <Alex_Deacon@mpaa.org> Cc: "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Just to clarify: I¹m fine with including any stakeholder that wants to contribute, including LEA. I am simply opposed to creating special provisions for dealing with (or conversely, limiting) LEA requests, aside from maintaining a point of contact and a duty to investigate. Because, at the end of the day, LEA actions will be governed by local law and ICANN policies/accreditation requirements will be set aside.
Thanks‹
J.
On 10/22/14, 12:56 , "Chris Pelling" <chris@netearthone.com> wrote:
Hi Alex,
I agree with your point that "can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur?" -- I agree with can we as a "can we the WG decide" in that its up to the group.
However, the point regarding "We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks." -- this is NOT an assumption, it's FACT, this has already happened before, you really do not need to look too far - just look at the RAA.
LE will come in, state that they want to see X, Y and Z, they'll provide nothing to back up the "wants" with justification and statistics and then keep this WG active in discussion / disagreement for years to come.
I agree with Volker, James and Luc.
Kind regards,. Chris
----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Deacon" <Alex_Deacon@mpaa.org> To: lseufer@dclgroup.eu Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Sent: Wednesday, 22 October, 2014 6:17:48 PM Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hold on. This is a PDP on privacy/proxy services, not whois accuracy. Discussion and debates around the effectiveness of whois accuracy recommendations is clearly not in scope of this WG.
Also, given the bottom up multistakeholder nature of ICANN can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur? We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks. While I understand why some would make this assumption I suggest its best to get their input on our current set of preliminary conclusions sooner rather than later.
Alex
On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Luc SEUFER <lseufer@dclgroup.eu> wrote:
I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.
But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recommen d ations-01mar12-en.pdf
I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn¹t seem wise to me.
Thanks,
Luc
On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote:
James,.
Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.
Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward ³requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal.² From experience, I don¹t think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Don:
Even if they raise new issues or rationalesŠ.then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictionsŠ.
Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.
Thanks‹
J.
From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
James,
I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don¹t see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.
In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.
Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.
Thanks‹
J.
From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounce s @icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Volker,
I understand the concern. It¹s been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
Don
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounce s @icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hi Don,
one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we¹ll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it¹s time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won¹t be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That¹s not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You must not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone.
Think of the environment: don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
-------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
I can't speak with respect to GoDaddy's experience. I can say though that not all LE interactions with registrars or registries involve compulsory process, court order, or other mechanisms that require responses or otherwise are governed by law. And with that I will retire from today's fray to prepare tomorrow's M3AAWG presentation. Surprise, it will be about possible upcoming Whois and WHOIS developments, although focused on issues that might be of interest to the anti abuse community. Don -----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of James M. Bladel Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:02 PM To: Chris Pelling; Alex Deacon Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Just to clarify: I¹m fine with including any stakeholder that wants to contribute, including LEA. I am simply opposed to creating special provisions for dealing with (or conversely, limiting) LEA requests, aside from maintaining a point of contact and a duty to investigate. Because, at the end of the day, LEA actions will be governed by local law and ICANN policies/accreditation requirements will be set aside. Thanks‹ J. On 10/22/14, 12:56 , "Chris Pelling" <chris@netearthone.com> wrote:
Hi Alex,
I agree with your point that "can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur?" -- I agree with can we as a "can we the WG decide" in that its up to the group.
However, the point regarding "We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks." -- this is NOT an assumption, it's FACT, this has already happened before, you really do not need to look too far - just look at the RAA.
LE will come in, state that they want to see X, Y and Z, they'll provide nothing to back up the "wants" with justification and statistics and then keep this WG active in discussion / disagreement for years to come.
I agree with Volker, James and Luc.
Kind regards,. Chris
----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Deacon" <Alex_Deacon@mpaa.org> To: lseufer@dclgroup.eu Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Sent: Wednesday, 22 October, 2014 6:17:48 PM Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hold on. This is a PDP on privacy/proxy services, not whois accuracy. Discussion and debates around the effectiveness of whois accuracy recommendations is clearly not in scope of this WG.
Also, given the bottom up multistakeholder nature of ICANN can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur? We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks. While I understand why some would make this assumption I suggest its best to get their input on our current set of preliminary conclusions sooner rather than later.
Alex
On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Luc SEUFER <lseufer@dclgroup.eu> wrote:
I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.
But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recomm end ations-01mar12-en.pdf
I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn¹t seem wise to me.
Thanks,
Luc
On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote:
James,.
Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.
Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward ³requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal.² From experience, I don¹t think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Don:
Even if they raise new issues or rationalesŠ.then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictionsŠ.
Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.
Thanks‹
J.
From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
James,
I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don¹t see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.
In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.
Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.
Thanks‹
J.
From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-boun ces @icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Volker,
I understand the concern. It¹s been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
Don
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-boun ces @icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hi Don,
one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we¹ll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it¹s time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won¹t be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That¹s not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You must not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone.
Think of the environment: don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
-------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
How LE will react is an assumption, not a fact. I know first hand how contentious relationships between contracted parties and LE can be, although from the sidelines it seems as if the RAA negotiations took the problems to new levels (understatement of the month?). However, we discussed the possibility of making sure that we get LE perspectives before we issue a draft report. The point was made more than once that the only way to do it is something like an SME (my definition) presentation. I don't remember strong objections any time that the topic came up. We will reach out to LE with "react to our initial discussions" ground rules. (Maybe things will go better if I can stack it with former colleagues. :) ) It will be up to them to take advantage of the opportunity to contribute. The rules will be put on the record as part of their introduction on the call. If they don't comply with the rules, that also will be on the record. Don -----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Chris Pelling Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 1:56 PM To: Alex Deacon Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hi Alex, I agree with your point that "can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur?" -- I agree with can we as a "can we the WG decide" in that its up to the group. However, the point regarding "We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks." -- this is NOT an assumption, it's FACT, this has already happened before, you really do not need to look too far - just look at the RAA. LE will come in, state that they want to see X, Y and Z, they'll provide nothing to back up the "wants" with justification and statistics and then keep this WG active in discussion / disagreement for years to come. I agree with Volker, James and Luc. Kind regards,. Chris ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Deacon" <Alex_Deacon@mpaa.org> To: lseufer@dclgroup.eu Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Sent: Wednesday, 22 October, 2014 6:17:48 PM Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hold on. This is a PDP on privacy/proxy services, not whois accuracy. Discussion and debates around the effectiveness of whois accuracy recommendations is clearly not in scope of this WG. Also, given the bottom up multistakeholder nature of ICANN can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur? We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks. While I understand why some would make this assumption I suggest its best to get their input on our current set of preliminary conclusions sooner rather than later. Alex
On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Luc SEUFER <lseufer@dclgroup.eu> wrote:
I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.
But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recommendati...
I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn’t seem wise to me.
Thanks,
Luc
On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote:
James,.
Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.
Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward “requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal.” From experience, I don’t think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Don:
Even if they raise new issues or rationales….then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictions….
Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.
Thanks—
J.
From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
James,
I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don’t see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.
In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.
Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.
Thanks—
J.
From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Volker,
I understand the concern. It’s been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
Don
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hi Don,
one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we’ll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it’s time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won’t be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That’s not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You must not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone.
Think of the environment: don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
-------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
I share the concerns expressed by Chris, Luc, James and Volker, and appreciate the assurances and "groundrules" provided by Don. Best and good to everyone in LA, Kathy On 10/22/2014 1:56 PM, Chris Pelling wrote:
Hi Alex,
I agree with your point that "can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur?" -- I agree with can we as a "can we the WG decide" in that its up to the group.
However, the point regarding "We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks." -- this is NOT an assumption, it's FACT, this has already happened before, you really do not need to look too far - just look at the RAA.
LE will come in, state that they want to see X, Y and Z, they'll provide nothing to back up the "wants" with justification and statistics and then keep this WG active in discussion / disagreement for years to come.
I agree with Volker, James and Luc.
Kind regards,. Chris
----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Deacon" <Alex_Deacon@mpaa.org> To: lseufer@dclgroup.eu Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Sent: Wednesday, 22 October, 2014 6:17:48 PM Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hold on. This is a PDP on privacy/proxy services, not whois accuracy. Discussion and debates around the effectiveness of whois accuracy recommendations is clearly not in scope of this WG.
Also, given the bottom up multistakeholder nature of ICANN can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur? We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks. While I understand why some would make this assumption I suggest its best to get their input on our current set of preliminary conclusions sooner rather than later.
Alex
On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Luc SEUFER <lseufer@dclgroup.eu> wrote:
I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.
But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.
https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recommendati...
I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn’t seem wise to me.
Thanks,
Luc
On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote:
James,.
Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.
Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward “requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal.” From experience, I don’t think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Don:
Even if they raise new issues or rationales….then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictions….
Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.
Thanks—
J.
From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
James,
I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don’t see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.
Don
From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.
In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.
Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.
Thanks—
J.
From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Volker,
I understand the concern. It’s been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.
Don
From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach
Hi Don,
one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.
Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello,
The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we’ll move from here later in the week after some drafting.
In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it’s time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won’t be neary has helpful.
We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That’s not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.
On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.
Thanks,
Don
_______________________________________________
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>
https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
--
Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen,
Volker A. Greimann
- Rechtsabteilung -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin
Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen.
--------------------------------------------
Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us.
Best regards,
Volker A. Greimann
- legal department -
Key-Systems GmbH
Im Oberen Werk 1
66386 St. Ingbert
Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901
Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851
Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>
Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net/> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.rrpproxy.net/>
www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com/> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.brandshelter.com/>
Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated:
www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems>
www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems>
CEO: Alexander Siffrin
Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken
V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534
Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP
www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu/>
This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------
This e-mail and any attached files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail by mistake, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You must not copy the message or disclose its contents to anyone.
Think of the environment: don't print this e-mail unless you really need to.
-------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
We agree with the comments that the subject of requests by law enforcement agencies is outside the scope of our working group, and would tend to bog down our progress. David K. Heasley Silverberg, Goldman & Bikoff, LLP 1101 30th Street, N.W. Suite 120 Washington, D.C. 20007 Tel. 202.944.2339 Fax 202.944.3306 dheasley@sgbdc.com ________________________________ From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Metalitz, Steven Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:16 AM To: 'Don Blumenthal'; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group. From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Volker, I understand the concern. It's been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE. Don From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Hi Don, one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts. Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello, The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we'll move from here later in the week after some drafting. In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it's time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won't be neary has helpful. We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That's not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community. On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts. Thanks, Don _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. Greimann - Rechtsabteilung - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Folgen Sie uns bei Twitter oder werden Sie unser Fan bei Facebook: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> Geschäftsführer: Alexander Siffrin Handelsregister Nr.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken Umsatzsteuer ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> Der Inhalt dieser Nachricht ist vertraulich und nur für den angegebenen Empfänger bestimmt. Jede Form der Kenntnisgabe, Veröffentlichung oder Weitergabe an Dritte durch den Empfänger ist unzulässig. Sollte diese Nachricht nicht für Sie bestimmt sein, so bitten wir Sie, sich mit uns per E-Mail oder telefonisch in Verbindung zu setzen. -------------------------------------------- Should you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to contact us. Best regards, Volker A. Greimann - legal department - Key-Systems GmbH Im Oberen Werk 1 66386 St. Ingbert Tel.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 901 Fax.: +49 (0) 6894 - 9396 851 Email: vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> Web: www.key-systems.net<http://www.key-systems.net> / www.RRPproxy.net<http://www.RRPproxy.net> www.domaindiscount24.com<http://www.domaindiscount24.com> / www.BrandShelter.com<http://www.BrandShelter.com> Follow us on Twitter or join our fan community on Facebook and stay updated: www.facebook.com/KeySystems<http://www.facebook.com/KeySystems> www.twitter.com/key_systems<http://www.twitter.com/key_systems> CEO: Alexander Siffrin Registration No.: HR B 18835 - Saarbruecken V.A.T. ID.: DE211006534 Member of the KEYDRIVE GROUP www.keydrive.lu<http://www.keydrive.lu> This e-mail and its attachments is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. Furthermore it is not permitted to publish any content of this email. You must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, kindly notify the author by replying to this e-mail or contacting us by telephone.
participants (13)
-
Alex_Deacon＠mpaa.org -
Chris Pelling -
David Heasley -
Don Blumenthal -
James M. Bladel -
Kathy Kleiman -
Kiran Malancharuvil -
Luc SEUFER -
Mary Wong -
Metalitz, Steven -
Michele Neylon - Blacknight -
Stephanie Perrin -
Volker Greimann