FW: A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments
Hi All: Please find, below, some comments from Dick Leaning (formerly of Europol and this group). He is unable to post to the list so I am forwarding. I hope it's readable. Thanks, Kiran
On Jul 22, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Richard Leaning wrote:
Kiran - Can you post the below to group for me as i don’t have the group email address and cc me in please.
Dear All,
I apologise for not emailing earlier or being on the last two calls. As you are all probably aware i retired from LE on the 30th June after 30+ years to take up a new challenge, its on Linkedin if anyone is interested, which has taken up most of my time over the last couple of weeks. I would like to continue being part of this group as an interested individual but am unable to commit just yet. and of course, if i will be accepted.
The PSWG will appoint someone new to apply to join the group in my place very soon.
I however have been keeping a distant eye on the discussions and would like to comment of the ‘average cop’ knowledge of WHOIS, not as an PSWG spokesperson but as a 30+ Detective with Scotland Yard.
What is an average cop? Good question - there is no such thing as an average cop, we all do the same basic training then we specialise into our chosen investigative fields - Drugs, Murder, Extortion, Terrorism, Rape, Human trafficking, Child Abuse and Cyber Crime to name a few.
A Murder Squad Investigator would not have the necessary training to investigate a terrorism offence. An Drugs investigator would not have the necessary training to investigate an Child Abuse case, you get my drift. So is a Murder squad investigator an 'average cop’ from the view point of a Child Abuse investigator? I don’t think so.
What all these offence have in common is the Internet - ALL CRIME HAS A PRESENCE ON THE INTERNET. From criminals using it to communicate, to using it to steal all our personal information.
When i started many years ago - the criminals used land lines and telephone boxes, then they moved onto pagers, mobile phones (only calls and text messages in those days) - when i was drug squad Detective it was not unusual to arrest a major drug dealer with 20+ mobile phones in his possession.
Then with the Internet they started using Draft emails, now they have so many ways to communicate - its not unheard of that two criminals would use ‘Tinder’ to speak to each other.
With the internet as it is today - many many criminals use the internet to buy and sell guns and drugs, move illegal money around, hire like minder individuals, stream live child abuse images, sell Botnets, C2 Severs and credit card details - this is all done by the use of websites. The vast majority of these web-sites use the services of a Privacy Proxy provider covering many jurisdictions or just fill in WHOIS with false details. A MLAT is not fit for purpose in these dynamic investigations - its takes months to process, yes months.
So what does this mean - it means that the ‘average global cop’ who is involved in any type of these criminal investigation is fully aware of WHOIS. Thats why we are here at ICANN representing all LE who investigate all types of criminal offences.
Now the PSWG are representing all organisations that protect the public from unlawful activity that use websites.
A great many of LE globally know an amazing amount about WHOIS.
Cheers
Dick
On 22 Jul 2015, at 05:00, Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>> wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
From: Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmo nitor.com><mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>> Date: July 21, 2015 at 8:59:25 PM PDT To: Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com<mailto:bzs@world.std.com><mailto:bzs@world.std.com>
Cc: "McGrady, Paul D." <PMcGrady@winston.com<mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com><mailto:PMcGrady@win ston.com>>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailt o:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailt o:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments
Barry,
Thanks for your comments. I think you would be interested in the past interventions of Dick Leaning, who was the LE representative on this group until his retirement from Europol on July 1st of this year, and in the public safety working group comment drafted by Bobby Flaim from the FBI and Loreen Kapin from the FTC (with Dick's input). They have statedon multiple occasions that getting a warrant isn't a 15 minute thing. I'll let them speak for themselves but suffice to say that they prefer a system that doesn't require a warrant.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that they've given their recommendations formally.
Happy lurking!
Kiran
Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)
Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
On Jul 21, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com<mailto:bzs@world.std.com><mailto:bzs@world.std.com>> wrote:
I apologize for posting at all since I'm not much involved but I'm sort of surprised at the level of speculation about law enforcement.
As an ISP I've been in the middle of this sort of thing.
In a nutshell there are large and huge and tiny LEAs and they're all quite different in their response.
I've dealt with the FBI who can turn out a proper warrant in about 15 minutes and college campus police (colleges you've heard of) who could be incredibly unprofessional -- one threatened, and I mean angrily threatened, that if I didn't produce the credentials immediately (I stood my ground for a warrant, it was basically cyberstalking) they would "show up at my office". I said they were welcome, I'd make the coffee, and got in touch with the university's general counsel. I could post that interchange but as you can imagine they were horribly embarrassed.
Why not get someone from an LEA or two involved even informally rather than speculate?
So much of this is in the name of law enforcement yet my impression is that law enforcement per se hasn't been engaged.
A DA wouldn't hurt either since they have to build the cases and wield the prosecutorial discretion which is really what you're ultimately trying to support.
Sorry, I'll go back to lurking.
-- -Barry Shein
The World | bzs@TheWorld.com<mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com><mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com> | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailto :Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Kiran - thanks @Mary or staff - any chance you can add Dick’s new email address to the list? So at least he can reply if he has time / the inclination? Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://www.michele.irish/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 22/07/2015 18:36, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:
Hi All:
Please find, below, some comments from Dick Leaning (formerly of Europol and this group). He is unable to post to the list so I am forwarding. I hope it's readable.
Thanks,
Kiran
On Jul 22, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Richard Leaning wrote:
Kiran - Can you post the below to group for me as i don’t have the group email address and cc me in please.
Dear All,
I apologise for not emailing earlier or being on the last two calls. As you are all probably aware i retired from LE on the 30th June after 30+ years to take up a new challenge, its on Linkedin if anyone is interested, which has taken up most of my time over the last couple of weeks. I would like to continue being part of this group as an interested individual but am unable to commit just yet. and of course, if i will be accepted.
The PSWG will appoint someone new to apply to join the group in my place very soon.
I however have been keeping a distant eye on the discussions and would like to comment of the ‘average cop’ knowledge of WHOIS, not as an PSWG spokesperson but as a 30+ Detective with Scotland Yard.
What is an average cop? Good question - there is no such thing as an average cop, we all do the same basic training then we specialise into our chosen investigative fields - Drugs, Murder, Extortion, Terrorism, Rape, Human trafficking, Child Abuse and Cyber Crime to name a few.
A Murder Squad Investigator would not have the necessary training to investigate a terrorism offence. An Drugs investigator would not have the necessary training to investigate an Child Abuse case, you get my drift. So is a Murder squad investigator an 'average cop’ from the view point of a Child Abuse investigator? I don’t think so.
What all these offence have in common is the Internet - ALL CRIME HAS A PRESENCE ON THE INTERNET. From criminals using it to communicate, to using it to steal all our personal information.
When i started many years ago - the criminals used land lines and telephone boxes, then they moved onto pagers, mobile phones (only calls and text messages in those days) - when i was drug squad Detective it was not unusual to arrest a major drug dealer with 20+ mobile phones in his possession.
Then with the Internet they started using Draft emails, now they have so many ways to communicate - its not unheard of that two criminals would use ‘Tinder’ to speak to each other.
With the internet as it is today - many many criminals use the internet to buy and sell guns and drugs, move illegal money around, hire like minder individuals, stream live child abuse images, sell Botnets, C2 Severs and credit card details - this is all done by the use of websites. The vast majority of these web-sites use the services of a Privacy Proxy provider covering many jurisdictions or just fill in WHOIS with false details. A MLAT is not fit for purpose in these dynamic investigations - its takes months to process, yes months.
So what does this mean - it means that the ‘average global cop’ who is involved in any type of these criminal investigation is fully aware of WHOIS. Thats why we are here at ICANN representing all LE who investigate all types of criminal offences.
Now the PSWG are representing all organisations that protect the public from unlawful activity that use websites.
A great many of LE globally know an amazing amount about WHOIS.
Cheers
Dick
On 22 Jul 2015, at 05:00, Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>> wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
From: Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmo nitor.com><mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>> Date: July 21, 2015 at 8:59:25 PM PDT To: Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com<mailto:bzs@world.std.com><mailto:bzs@world.std.com>
Cc: "McGrady, Paul D." <PMcGrady@winston.com<mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com><mailto:PMcGrady@win ston.com>>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailt o:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailt o:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments
Barry,
Thanks for your comments. I think you would be interested in the past interventions of Dick Leaning, who was the LE representative on this group until his retirement from Europol on July 1st of this year, and in the public safety working group comment drafted by Bobby Flaim from the FBI and Loreen Kapin from the FTC (with Dick's input). They have statedon multiple occasions that getting a warrant isn't a 15 minute thing. I'll let them speak for themselves but suffice to say that they prefer a system that doesn't require a warrant.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that they've given their recommendations formally.
Happy lurking!
Kiran
Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)
Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
On Jul 21, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com<mailto:bzs@world.std.com><mailto:bzs@world.std.com>> wrote:
I apologize for posting at all since I'm not much involved but I'm sort of surprised at the level of speculation about law enforcement.
As an ISP I've been in the middle of this sort of thing.
In a nutshell there are large and huge and tiny LEAs and they're all quite different in their response.
I've dealt with the FBI who can turn out a proper warrant in about 15 minutes and college campus police (colleges you've heard of) who could be incredibly unprofessional -- one threatened, and I mean angrily threatened, that if I didn't produce the credentials immediately (I stood my ground for a warrant, it was basically cyberstalking) they would "show up at my office". I said they were welcome, I'd make the coffee, and got in touch with the university's general counsel. I could post that interchange but as you can imagine they were horribly embarrassed.
Why not get someone from an LEA or two involved even informally rather than speculate?
So much of this is in the name of law enforcement yet my impression is that law enforcement per se hasn't been engaged.
A DA wouldn't hurt either since they have to build the cases and wield the prosecutorial discretion which is really what you're ultimately trying to support.
Sorry, I'll go back to lurking.
-- -Barry Shein
The World | bzs@TheWorld.com<mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com><mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com> | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailto :Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Michele, I will add to the mailing list. Thanks, Glen Glen de Saint Géry GNSO Secretariat gnso.secretariat@gnso.icann.org http://gnso.icann.org -----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Michele Neylon - Blacknight Sent: mercredi 22 juillet 2015 19:42 To: Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>; PPSAI (gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org) <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Cc: dick.leaning@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] FW: A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments Kiran - thanks @Mary or staff - any chance you can add Dick’s new email address to the list? So at least he can reply if he has time / the inclination? Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://www.michele.irish/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 22/07/2015 18:36, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:
Hi All:
Please find, below, some comments from Dick Leaning (formerly of Europol and this group). He is unable to post to the list so I am forwarding. I hope it's readable.
Thanks,
Kiran
On Jul 22, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Richard Leaning wrote:
Kiran - Can you post the below to group for me as i don’t have the group email address and cc me in please.
Dear All,
I apologise for not emailing earlier or being on the last two calls. As you are all probably aware i retired from LE on the 30th June after 30+ years to take up a new challenge, its on Linkedin if anyone is interested, which has taken up most of my time over the last couple of weeks. I would like to continue being part of this group as an interested individual but am unable to commit just yet. and of course, if i will be accepted.
The PSWG will appoint someone new to apply to join the group in my place very soon.
I however have been keeping a distant eye on the discussions and would like to comment of the ‘average cop’ knowledge of WHOIS, not as an PSWG spokesperson but as a 30+ Detective with Scotland Yard.
What is an average cop? Good question - there is no such thing as an average cop, we all do the same basic training then we specialise into our chosen investigative fields - Drugs, Murder, Extortion, Terrorism, Rape, Human trafficking, Child Abuse and Cyber Crime to name a few.
A Murder Squad Investigator would not have the necessary training to investigate a terrorism offence. An Drugs investigator would not have the necessary training to investigate an Child Abuse case, you get my drift. So is a Murder squad investigator an 'average cop’ from the view point of a Child Abuse investigator? I don’t think so.
What all these offence have in common is the Internet - ALL CRIME HAS A PRESENCE ON THE INTERNET. From criminals using it to communicate, to using it to steal all our personal information.
When i started many years ago - the criminals used land lines and telephone boxes, then they moved onto pagers, mobile phones (only calls and text messages in those days) - when i was drug squad Detective it was not unusual to arrest a major drug dealer with 20+ mobile phones in his possession.
Then with the Internet they started using Draft emails, now they have so many ways to communicate - its not unheard of that two criminals would use ‘Tinder’ to speak to each other.
With the internet as it is today - many many criminals use the internet to buy and sell guns and drugs, move illegal money around, hire like minder individuals, stream live child abuse images, sell Botnets, C2 Severs and credit card details - this is all done by the use of websites. The vast majority of these web-sites use the services of a Privacy Proxy provider covering many jurisdictions or just fill in WHOIS with false details. A MLAT is not fit for purpose in these dynamic investigations - its takes months to process, yes months.
So what does this mean - it means that the ‘average global cop’ who is involved in any type of these criminal investigation is fully aware of WHOIS. Thats why we are here at ICANN representing all LE who investigate all types of criminal offences.
Now the PSWG are representing all organisations that protect the public from unlawful activity that use websites.
A great many of LE globally know an amazing amount about WHOIS.
Cheers
Dick
On 22 Jul 2015, at 05:00, Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>> wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
From: Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markm o nitor.com><mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>> Date: July 21, 2015 at 8:59:25 PM PDT To: Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com<mailto:bzs@world.std.com><mailto:bzs@world.std.com
Cc: "McGrady, Paul D." <PMcGrady@winston.com<mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com><mailto:PMcGrady@wi n ston.com>>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mail t o:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mail t o:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments
Barry,
Thanks for your comments. I think you would be interested in the past interventions of Dick Leaning, who was the LE representative on this group until his retirement from Europol on July 1st of this year, and in the public safety working group comment drafted by Bobby Flaim from the FBI and Loreen Kapin from the FTC (with Dick's input). They have statedon multiple occasions that getting a warrant isn't a 15 minute thing. I'll let them speak for themselves but suffice to say that they prefer a system that doesn't require a warrant.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that they've given their recommendations formally.
Happy lurking!
Kiran
Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)
Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
On Jul 21, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com<mailto:bzs@world.std.com><mailto:bzs@world.std.com>> wrote:
I apologize for posting at all since I'm not much involved but I'm sort of surprised at the level of speculation about law enforcement.
As an ISP I've been in the middle of this sort of thing.
In a nutshell there are large and huge and tiny LEAs and they're all quite different in their response.
I've dealt with the FBI who can turn out a proper warrant in about 15 minutes and college campus police (colleges you've heard of) who could be incredibly unprofessional -- one threatened, and I mean angrily threatened, that if I didn't produce the credentials immediately (I stood my ground for a warrant, it was basically cyberstalking) they would "show up at my office". I said they were welcome, I'd make the coffee, and got in touch with the university's general counsel. I could post that interchange but as you can imagine they were horribly embarrassed.
Why not get someone from an LEA or two involved even informally rather than speculate?
So much of this is in the name of law enforcement yet my impression is that law enforcement per se hasn't been engaged.
A DA wouldn't hurt either since they have to build the cases and wield the prosecutorial discretion which is really what you're ultimately trying to support.
Sorry, I'll go back to lurking.
-- -Barry Shein
The World | bzs@TheWorld.com<mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com><mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com> | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailt o :Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
_______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
Thanks Glen :) -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://www.michele.irish/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 22/07/2015 18:49, "Glen de Saint Géry" <Glen@icann.org> wrote:
Michele,
I will add to the mailing list. Thanks,
Glen
Glen de Saint Géry GNSO Secretariat gnso.secretariat@gnso.icann.org http://gnso.icann.org
-----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Michele Neylon - Blacknight Sent: mercredi 22 juillet 2015 19:42 To: Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>; PPSAI (gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org) <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Cc: dick.leaning@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] FW: A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments
Kiran - thanks
@Mary or staff - any chance you can add Dick’s new email address to the list? So at least he can reply if he has time / the inclination?
Regards
Michele
-- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://www.michele.irish/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845
On 22/07/2015 18:36, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:
Hi All:
Please find, below, some comments from Dick Leaning (formerly of Europol and this group). He is unable to post to the list so I am forwarding. I hope it's readable.
Thanks,
Kiran
On Jul 22, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Richard Leaning wrote:
Kiran - Can you post the below to group for me as i don’t have the group email address and cc me in please.
Dear All,
I apologise for not emailing earlier or being on the last two calls. As you are all probably aware i retired from LE on the 30th June after 30+ years to take up a new challenge, its on Linkedin if anyone is interested, which has taken up most of my time over the last couple of weeks. I would like to continue being part of this group as an interested individual but am unable to commit just yet. and of course, if i will be accepted.
The PSWG will appoint someone new to apply to join the group in my place very soon.
I however have been keeping a distant eye on the discussions and would like to comment of the ‘average cop’ knowledge of WHOIS, not as an PSWG spokesperson but as a 30+ Detective with Scotland Yard.
What is an average cop? Good question - there is no such thing as an average cop, we all do the same basic training then we specialise into our chosen investigative fields - Drugs, Murder, Extortion, Terrorism, Rape, Human trafficking, Child Abuse and Cyber Crime to name a few.
A Murder Squad Investigator would not have the necessary training to investigate a terrorism offence. An Drugs investigator would not have the necessary training to investigate an Child Abuse case, you get my drift. So is a Murder squad investigator an 'average cop’ from the view point of a Child Abuse investigator? I don’t think so.
What all these offence have in common is the Internet - ALL CRIME HAS A PRESENCE ON THE INTERNET. From criminals using it to communicate, to using it to steal all our personal information.
When i started many years ago - the criminals used land lines and telephone boxes, then they moved onto pagers, mobile phones (only calls and text messages in those days) - when i was drug squad Detective it was not unusual to arrest a major drug dealer with 20+ mobile phones in his possession.
Then with the Internet they started using Draft emails, now they have so many ways to communicate - its not unheard of that two criminals would use ‘Tinder’ to speak to each other.
With the internet as it is today - many many criminals use the internet to buy and sell guns and drugs, move illegal money around, hire like minder individuals, stream live child abuse images, sell Botnets, C2 Severs and credit card details - this is all done by the use of websites. The vast majority of these web-sites use the services of a Privacy Proxy provider covering many jurisdictions or just fill in WHOIS with false details. A MLAT is not fit for purpose in these dynamic investigations - its takes months to process, yes months.
So what does this mean - it means that the ‘average global cop’ who is involved in any type of these criminal investigation is fully aware of WHOIS. Thats why we are here at ICANN representing all LE who investigate all types of criminal offences.
Now the PSWG are representing all organisations that protect the public from unlawful activity that use websites.
A great many of LE globally know an amazing amount about WHOIS.
Cheers
Dick
On 22 Jul 2015, at 05:00, Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>> wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
From: Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markm o nitor.com><mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>> Date: July 21, 2015 at 8:59:25 PM PDT To: Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com<mailto:bzs@world.std.com><mailto:bzs@world.std.com
Cc: "McGrady, Paul D." <PMcGrady@winston.com<mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com><mailto:PMcGrady@wi n ston.com>>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mail t o:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mail t o:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments
Barry,
Thanks for your comments. I think you would be interested in the past interventions of Dick Leaning, who was the LE representative on this group until his retirement from Europol on July 1st of this year, and in the public safety working group comment drafted by Bobby Flaim from the FBI and Loreen Kapin from the FTC (with Dick's input). They have statedon multiple occasions that getting a warrant isn't a 15 minute thing. I'll let them speak for themselves but suffice to say that they prefer a system that doesn't require a warrant.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that they've given their recommendations formally.
Happy lurking!
Kiran
Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)
Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
On Jul 21, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com<mailto:bzs@world.std.com><mailto:bzs@world.std.com>> wrote:
I apologize for posting at all since I'm not much involved but I'm sort of surprised at the level of speculation about law enforcement.
As an ISP I've been in the middle of this sort of thing.
In a nutshell there are large and huge and tiny LEAs and they're all quite different in their response.
I've dealt with the FBI who can turn out a proper warrant in about 15 minutes and college campus police (colleges you've heard of) who could be incredibly unprofessional -- one threatened, and I mean angrily threatened, that if I didn't produce the credentials immediately (I stood my ground for a warrant, it was basically cyberstalking) they would "show up at my office". I said they were welcome, I'd make the coffee, and got in touch with the university's general counsel. I could post that interchange but as you can imagine they were horribly embarrassed.
Why not get someone from an LEA or two involved even informally rather than speculate?
So much of this is in the name of law enforcement yet my impression is that law enforcement per se hasn't been engaged.
A DA wouldn't hurt either since they have to build the cases and wield the prosecutorial discretion which is really what you're ultimately trying to support.
Sorry, I'll go back to lurking.
-- -Barry Shein
The World | bzs@TheWorld.com<mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com><mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com> | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailt o :Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
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Done! New address added Glen Glen de Saint Géry GNSO Secretariat gnso.secretariat@gnso.icann.org http://gnso.icann.org -----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Michele Neylon - Blacknight Sent: mercredi 22 juillet 2015 19:42 To: Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>; PPSAI (gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org) <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Cc: dick.leaning@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] FW: A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments Kiran - thanks @Mary or staff - any chance you can add Dick’s new email address to the list? So at least he can reply if he has time / the inclination? Regards Michele -- Mr Michele Neylon Blacknight Solutions Hosting, Colocation & Domains http://www.blacknight.host/ http://blog.blacknight.com/ http://www.blacknight.press - get our latest news & media coverage http://www.technology.ie Intl. +353 (0) 59 9183072 Direct Dial: +353 (0)59 9183090 Social: http://mneylon.social Random Stuff: http://www.michele.irish/ ------------------------------- Blacknight Internet Solutions Ltd, Unit 12A,Barrowside Business Park,Sleaty Road,Graiguecullen,Carlow,Ireland Company No.: 370845 On 22/07/2015 18:36, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran Malancharuvil" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org on behalf of Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com> wrote:
Hi All:
Please find, below, some comments from Dick Leaning (formerly of Europol and this group). He is unable to post to the list so I am forwarding. I hope it's readable.
Thanks,
Kiran
On Jul 22, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Richard Leaning wrote:
Kiran - Can you post the below to group for me as i don’t have the group email address and cc me in please.
Dear All,
I apologise for not emailing earlier or being on the last two calls. As you are all probably aware i retired from LE on the 30th June after 30+ years to take up a new challenge, its on Linkedin if anyone is interested, which has taken up most of my time over the last couple of weeks. I would like to continue being part of this group as an interested individual but am unable to commit just yet. and of course, if i will be accepted.
The PSWG will appoint someone new to apply to join the group in my place very soon.
I however have been keeping a distant eye on the discussions and would like to comment of the ‘average cop’ knowledge of WHOIS, not as an PSWG spokesperson but as a 30+ Detective with Scotland Yard.
What is an average cop? Good question - there is no such thing as an average cop, we all do the same basic training then we specialise into our chosen investigative fields - Drugs, Murder, Extortion, Terrorism, Rape, Human trafficking, Child Abuse and Cyber Crime to name a few.
A Murder Squad Investigator would not have the necessary training to investigate a terrorism offence. An Drugs investigator would not have the necessary training to investigate an Child Abuse case, you get my drift. So is a Murder squad investigator an 'average cop’ from the view point of a Child Abuse investigator? I don’t think so.
What all these offence have in common is the Internet - ALL CRIME HAS A PRESENCE ON THE INTERNET. From criminals using it to communicate, to using it to steal all our personal information.
When i started many years ago - the criminals used land lines and telephone boxes, then they moved onto pagers, mobile phones (only calls and text messages in those days) - when i was drug squad Detective it was not unusual to arrest a major drug dealer with 20+ mobile phones in his possession.
Then with the Internet they started using Draft emails, now they have so many ways to communicate - its not unheard of that two criminals would use ‘Tinder’ to speak to each other.
With the internet as it is today - many many criminals use the internet to buy and sell guns and drugs, move illegal money around, hire like minder individuals, stream live child abuse images, sell Botnets, C2 Severs and credit card details - this is all done by the use of websites. The vast majority of these web-sites use the services of a Privacy Proxy provider covering many jurisdictions or just fill in WHOIS with false details. A MLAT is not fit for purpose in these dynamic investigations - its takes months to process, yes months.
So what does this mean - it means that the ‘average global cop’ who is involved in any type of these criminal investigation is fully aware of WHOIS. Thats why we are here at ICANN representing all LE who investigate all types of criminal offences.
Now the PSWG are representing all organisations that protect the public from unlawful activity that use websites.
A great many of LE globally know an amazing amount about WHOIS.
Cheers
Dick
On 22 Jul 2015, at 05:00, Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>> wrote:
Begin forwarded message:
From: Kiran Malancharuvil <Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com<mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markm o nitor.com><mailto:Kiran.Malancharuvil@markmonitor.com>> Date: July 21, 2015 at 8:59:25 PM PDT To: Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com<mailto:bzs@world.std.com><mailto:bzs@world.std.com
Cc: "McGrady, Paul D." <PMcGrady@winston.com<mailto:PMcGrady@winston.com><mailto:PMcGrady@wi n ston.com>>, "gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mail t o:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>" <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mail t o:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] A slightly revised proposed approachfor reviewing public comments
Barry,
Thanks for your comments. I think you would be interested in the past interventions of Dick Leaning, who was the LE representative on this group until his retirement from Europol on July 1st of this year, and in the public safety working group comment drafted by Bobby Flaim from the FBI and Loreen Kapin from the FTC (with Dick's input). They have statedon multiple occasions that getting a warrant isn't a 15 minute thing. I'll let them speak for themselves but suffice to say that they prefer a system that doesn't require a warrant.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that they've given their recommendations formally.
Happy lurking!
Kiran
Kiran Malancharuvil Policy Counselor MarkMonitor 415-419-9138 (m)
Sent from my mobile, please excuse any typos.
On Jul 21, 2015, at 8:12 PM, Barry Shein <bzs@world.std.com<mailto:bzs@world.std.com><mailto:bzs@world.std.com>> wrote:
I apologize for posting at all since I'm not much involved but I'm sort of surprised at the level of speculation about law enforcement.
As an ISP I've been in the middle of this sort of thing.
In a nutshell there are large and huge and tiny LEAs and they're all quite different in their response.
I've dealt with the FBI who can turn out a proper warrant in about 15 minutes and college campus police (colleges you've heard of) who could be incredibly unprofessional -- one threatened, and I mean angrily threatened, that if I didn't produce the credentials immediately (I stood my ground for a warrant, it was basically cyberstalking) they would "show up at my office". I said they were welcome, I'd make the coffee, and got in touch with the university's general counsel. I could post that interchange but as you can imagine they were horribly embarrassed.
Why not get someone from an LEA or two involved even informally rather than speculate?
So much of this is in the name of law enforcement yet my impression is that law enforcement per se hasn't been engaged.
A DA wouldn't hurt either since they have to build the cases and wield the prosecutorial discretion which is really what you're ultimately trying to support.
Sorry, I'll go back to lurking.
-- -Barry Shein
The World | bzs@TheWorld.com<mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com><mailto:bzs@TheWorld.com> | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: 800-THE-WRLD | Dial-Up: US, PR, Canada Software Tool & Die | Public Access Internet | SINCE 1989 *oo* _______________________________________________ Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg mailing list Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org><mailt o :Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg
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participants (3)
-
Glen de Saint Géry -
Kiran Malancharuvil -
Michele Neylon - Blacknight