Well said Don, Focus is the keyword here and have facts guide us and not claims. Regards Theo Geurts Van: "Don Blumenthal" <dblumenthal@pir.org> Aan: "James M. Bladel" <jbladel@godaddy.com> Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Verzonden: Woensdag 22 oktober 2014 20:44:55 Onderwerp: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach I can't speak with respect to GoDaddy's experience. I can say though that not all LE interactions with registrars or registries involve compulsory process, court order, or other mechanisms that require responses or otherwise are governed by law. And with that I will retire from today's fray to prepare tomorrow's M3AAWG presentation. Surprise, it will be about possible upcoming Whois and WHOIS developments, although focused on issues that might be of interest to the anti abuse community. Don -----Original Message----- From: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of James M. Bladel Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 2:02 PM To: Chris Pelling; Alex Deacon Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach Just to clarify: I¹m fine with including any stakeholder that wants to contribute, including LEA. I am simply opposed to creating special provisions for dealing with (or conversely, limiting) LEA requests, aside from maintaining a point of contact and a duty to investigate. Because, at the end of the day, LEA actions will be governed by local law and ICANN policies/accreditation requirements will be set aside. Thanks‹ J. On 10/22/14, 12:56 , "Chris Pelling" <chris@netearthone.com> wrote:

Hi Alex,

I agree with your point that "can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur?" -- I agree with can we as a "can we the WG decide" in that its up to the group.

However, the point regarding "We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks." -- this is NOT an assumption, it's FACT, this has already happened before, you really do not need to look too far - just look at the RAA.

LE will come in, state that they want to see X, Y and Z, they'll provide nothing to back up the "wants" with justification and statistics and then keep this WG active in discussion / disagreement for years to come.

I agree with Volker, James and Luc.

Kind regards,. Chris

----- Original Message ----- From: "Alex Deacon" <Alex_Deacon@mpaa.org> To: lseufer@dclgroup.eu Cc: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org Sent: Wednesday, 22 October, 2014 6:17:48 PM Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach

Hold on. This is a PDP on privacy/proxy services, not whois accuracy. Discussion and debates around the effectiveness of whois accuracy recommendations is clearly not in scope of this WG.

Also, given the bottom up multistakeholder nature of ICANN can we as a WG decide that input or involvement of LE (or any stakeholder group for that matter) should not occur? We seem to have jumped to the conclusion that LE will parachute in with a list of demands/asks. While I understand why some would make this assumption I suggest its best to get their input on our current set of preliminary conclusions sooner rather than later.

Alex

...

On Oct 22, 2014, at 8:04 AM, Luc SEUFER <lseufer@dclgroup.eu> wrote:

I know the charter of this working group has been drafted, approved etc.

But if we can just take a step back and remember that this accreditation program directly stems from a recommendation made by LEAs within the scope of the 2013 RAA negotiations.

https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/raa-law-enforcement-recomm end ations-01mar12-en.pdf

I trust asking them about the effectiveness of the other already implemented recommandations is in the remit of this WG. Developing policies without looking at their consequences doesn¹t seem wise to me.

Thanks,

Luc

On 22 Oct 2014, at 16:56, Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> wrote:

James,.

Laws and jurisdiction have nothing to do with it. LE simply may have different viewpoints on issues from what we have heard.

Example: It was my impression on the last call (next to last?) that the group was tending toward ³requestors must ask for relay before requesting reveal.² From experience, I don¹t think that will work so well when the requestor is, for example, LE or a private anti-abuse group.

Don

From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:44 AM To: Don Blumenthal; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach

Don:

Even if they raise new issues or rationalesŠ.then what? Sorry to be so blunt, but nothing we include as consensus policy or an accreditation requirement will trump the laws applicable to the P/P service. And it only takes us down the twisty path of jurisdictionsŠ.

Just not sure if there is any ultimate value of this effort.

Thanks‹

J.

From: Don Blumenthal <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:38 To: James Bladel <jbladel@godaddy.com<mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: RE: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach

James,

I am not sure what we will gain from LE or DPA sessions. However, the idea has floated a few times since we started work, and it was expressed again during the last call. I don¹t see either session as defining new privileges or protections, unless they raise issues or add rationales that we have not considered.

Don

From: James M. Bladel [mailto:jbladel@godaddy.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:30 AM To: Metalitz, Steven; Don Blumenthal; Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach

I am now convinced that the entire LEA issue is a morass w.r.t this PDP.

In a nutshell, the 2013 RAA requires Registrars to maintain a responsive (24/7) point of contact with their local law enforcement, and to investigate complaints of illegal activities, and take the appropriate action. It goes without saying that Registrars will also cooperate with court orders, warrants, etc.

Trying to use this PDP to construct additional LEA privileges (or define additional protections for P/P customers) is, IMO, out of scope and meaningless anyway. Recommend we model any P/P obligations after those in the RAA and move on. I question what will be gained from LEA outreach.

Thanks‹

J.

From: <Metalitz>, Steven <met@msk.com<mailto:met@msk.com>> Date: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 at 9:15 To: 'Don Blumenthal' <dblumenthal@pir.org<mailto:dblumenthal@pir.org>>, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net<mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net>>, PPSAI WG <gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org>> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach

While I understand that some WG members are eager to have a conversation with law enforcement about the 2013 RAA, I question whether that is in scope for our working group.

From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-boun ces @icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Don Blumenthal Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 10:11 AM To: Volker Greimann; gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach

Volker,

I understand the concern. It¹s been raised on calls and in other places for good reason. We will ask for stats as part of what we would like to hear from LE.

Don

From:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-boun ces @icann.org> [mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2014 4:35 AM To: gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org<mailto:gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [Gnso-ppsai-pdp-wg] Outreach

Hi Don,

one thing I would like to ask is that before we invite Law Enforcement to present their list of asks (because that is what it will turn out to be once they are here), we should request that they also present some evidence of how better contactability since the changes in the RAA has improved their ability to catch the bad guys. LEAs are always good at asking for more, but not as good at justifying their requests with concrete facts.

Volker Am 21.10.2014 18:53, schrieb Don Blumenthal: Hello,

The chairs group met this morning while sparing the rest of you. We will send more about we talked about and thoughts about how we¹ll move from here later in the week after some drafting.

In the meantime, some WG members have suggested SME style briefings from the law enforcement community and data protection authorities, and it¹s time to schedule them. The idea is for individuals or groups to look at what we have produced and comment based on their perspectives. General discussions of p/p won¹t be neary has helpful.

We have a good set of contacts in LE because it has a presence at ICANN and Dick Leaming from Interpol told me a few times in LA that he will join. Suggestions still are welcome for because the ICANN regulars are self-selected, and partly on the basis of who can afford to come. That¹s not necessarily the best way to get a cross section of the community.

On the other hand, we are starting almost from zero on DPA. I have a friend and long ago FTC colleague who works on privacy and security matters at the OECD as a possible starting point but we need more thoughts.

Thanks,

Don

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