Thanks Theo, that is a helpful cheatsheet. I would just add that privacy advocates and DPAs have been fighting machine identifiers for years...Remember the Big Brother Inside campaign against the Intel chip? cheers Stephanie On 2018-02-21 08:38, theo geurts wrote:
Perhaps this clarifies it more.
https://piwik.pro/blog/what-is-pii-personal-data/
Theo
On 21-2-2018 14:26, Stephanie Perrin wrote:
Sorry not to have answered this last night Steve, I was having the usual multi-tasking challenges which overtake the 1 AM calls. There is a fundamental problem here in my view, and that is the difference between people's understanding of "personally identifying information" or PII, and "personal information", which is silent on the matter of whether it can be identified. For example, your medical data may have all the identifiers removed (name, address, phone number, health numbers, etc.) but that does not mean that people could not figure out it was you, particularly these days when even DNA data is up on the net. We generally continue to call that personal data (people can reasonably understand, for instance, that an x-ray of my lungs is still my personal information, even if it has been securely anonymized). I argue that all data associated with your registration including the assigned data is personal data (for the purposes of ICANN's treatment of it as a data controller), but that does not mean it cannot be processed. It is not usually PII, but that is irrelevant for GDPR discussions because that is an expression not used in the GDPR, PII that has been popularized by the US, and that in the absence of general data protection law. We had a lengthy discussion of this about a year ago, and I am sure I was unsuccessful in persuading some folks that a name server could be personal data. The name of a city is not personally identifiable information, but if it is the one data element that distinguishes John Smith of Main street US, among six John Smiths on Main Street, then it is personal data.
Given the ubiquity of data and data analytics these days, this is an active area of privacy scholarship, with plenty of practical implications. We have over many years regularly removed a few data elements to mask data sufficiently for public processing purposes; increasingly this does not work anymore and the field is changing too fast to keep up. This of course does not mean that name servers, e.g., should not be published.
Stephanie
On 2018-02-20 23:14, Steve Crocker wrote:
Stephanie,
Some folks are saying address records, names of name servers and perhaps other records might have personally identifying information. I would not argue these records do not ever have personally identifying information, I do argue it’s immaterial. It’s essential these records are universally accessible and because this is well known, anyone who chooses to publish these records has implicitly granted permission for others to access this information. Policy people, legislators, regulators cannot impose a new requirement on the design and operation of the DNS as if the possibility of mediating access were an available option.
Steve
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 20, 2018, at 11:02 PM, Stephanie Perrin <stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca <mailto:stephanie.perrin@mail.utoronto.ca>> wrote:
Actually no, Steve, we sorted this out a few months ago....Andrew Sullivan explained all of this patiently and in great detail, as I recall. I tried to explain the difference between data elements constituting PI, because of their association with an individual, and the requirements to protect. I think I failed dismally in that effort, because I see we are re-arguing those issues.
cheers Stephanie
On 2018-02-20 11:50, Steve Crocker wrote:
I'm puzzled by the reference to name servers and A records. These are necessarily public else the domain name system won't function. Is there confusion or misunderstanding about the role of these records?
Steve
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 11:47 AM, allison nixon <elsakoo@gmail.com <mailto:elsakoo@gmail.com>> wrote:
1,000,000% agreed. Registrars cannot eliminate all their risk by masking WHOIS into oblivion. The DPAs can still ask why they are exposing A records, nameservers, etc, to anyone who asks for them, without valid reasons or authentication. Why do they expose zone files, etc. The DPAs can ask why customer support can sometimes so easily be social engineered into handing over accounts to account takeover scammers.
Since most registrars are also hosting providers/mail providers, would criminals storing stolen PII on your servers be a GDPR issue? After all, the ultimate owner of the server is also considered a "processor", which has interesting implications if one's customers include phishers, or sell stolen credit cards, and one's already been notified. I have even seen miscreants putting doxes in TXT records.
I already know of quite a few incidents where people would have had standing to file a GDPR complaint against registrars/hosters, unrelated to WHOIS.
Eventually the issue is going to impact the core business model of registrars. This isn't going to stop at WHOIS. An open dialog with the DPAs at an early stage is of utmost importance for all parties involved here.
On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Sam Lanfranco <sam@lanfranco.net <mailto:sam@lanfranco.net>> wrote:
Benny,
This is why I support multi-venue multi-stakholder dialogue with the DPA's so that they are appraised of the issues on all sides of the data protection issue. They are then more likely to act in a judicious manner, and less like an attack dog. Watch the new movie "*/The Post/*" where when /Washington Post/ owner Katharine Graham decided to publish the Vietnam War Pentagon Papers, with the downside risk that she could be jailed for treason. The court ruled in favor of freedom of the press. It is not what the DPA can do, but what they are likely to do, and dialogue goes a long way to mitigating risk and shaping appropriate positions and behavior (with integrity) on all sides.
Sam L.
On 2/19/2018 10:02 AM, benny@nordreg.se <mailto:benny@nordreg.se> wrote:
<ironi on> Now I am relieved, we as registrars will not be subject for anything… </ironi off>
None of us know where and what they will prioritise,*/remember that it only take 1 complaint to a DPA to get the snowball moving./* [emphasis added] I am sure your statement have noe value then.
-- Med vänliga hälsningar / Kind Regards / Med vennlig hilsen
Benny Samuelsen Registry Manager - Domainexpert
Nordreg AB - ICANN accredited registrar IANA-ID: 638 Phone: +46.42197000 <tel:+46%2042%2019%2070%2000> Direct: +47.32260201 <tel:+47%2032%2026%2002%2001> Mobile: +47.40410200 <tel:+47%20404%2010%20200>
> On 19 Feb 2018, at 15:29, Sam Lanfranco > <sam@lanfranco.net <mailto:sam@lanfranco.net>> wrote: > > Hi Tim, > > No, completely to the contrary. My point with that > dollars reference was that in some cases litigation is > the preferred business response, rather than compliance > and paying fines. Also, the big revenues in mining big > data are outside the DNS sphere, and outside the abuses > and "bad things" that websites do to people. The big EU > fines are more likely to hit social media than > Registrars, although they are risks there as well. The > revenues, and privacy violations, will come from > profiling users by mining big data for scraps of > personal date to individualize target marketing. > > */As a brief aside:/* This goes well beyond the remit of > ICANN and is actually worse than just being inundated by > adverts base on personal online behavior. Artificial > Intelligence mining apps are increasingly customizing > the "news" one gets from news feeds, to help "glue the > eyeballs" to the adverts, creating a news silo of one. > (That is amusing for me since I virtually live in two > towns in two countries). Even more worrisome is the > growing practice for A.I. companies where A.I. "writes" > the news releases, now mainly in sports and finance, for > thousands of print and online news outlets. I know all > of this is outside the ICANN remit so I will stop there. > > Sam L. > > > On 2/18/2018 5:43 PM, Chen, Tim wrote: >> Hi Sam, >> >> When you say these are hundred million dollar issues >> for "the companies",which companies are you talking >> about? Large Registrars? >> >> I hope you are not comparing cybersecurity >> professionals and the good work they are trying to >> enable, to a completely separate privacy issue around >> data used for ad tracking or behavior tracking across >> websites. If I spent my days trying to protect people >> on the internet from bad things, I would certainly not >> appreciate any allusion that I was engaged on the whois >> data issue 'for the money'. >> >> Tim >> > > _______________________________________________ > gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list > gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> > https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg > <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg>
-- ------------------------------------------------ "It is a disgrace to be rich and honoured in an unjust state" -Confucius 邦有道，贫且贱焉，耻也。邦无道，富且贵焉，耻也 ------------------------------------------------ Visiting Prof, Xi'an Jaiotong-Liverpool Univ, Suzhou, China Dr Sam Lanfranco (Prof Emeritus & Senior Scholar) Econ, York U., Toronto, Ontario, CANADA - M3J 1P3 email:sam@lanfranco.net <mailto:sam@lanfranco.net> Skype: slanfranco blog:https://samlanfranco.blogspot.com <https://samlanfranco.blogspot.com> Phone:+1 613-476-0429 <tel:%28613%29%20476-0429> cell:+1 416-816-2852 <tel:%28416%29%20816-2852>
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