I apologize for injecting this message way to late in the thread and for not responding to Alan Greenbergs suggestion yesterday, but I was unavoidably offline for the last 18+ hours. As of now, lets change the title of this thread to Using the GDPR as a basis for RDS Policy. For any future responses to earlier messages about this topic, please change the subject. Note that I changed the subject in my reply. Feel free to respond to this message with additional discussion about messages below. I hope this works; if anyone has a different suggestion regarding how to do this, please feel free to communicate it. Chuck From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Paul Keating Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 4:38 AM To: Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com>; Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net> Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful Correct but they are the ones collecting the data so unless they are convinced of the need and legal ability they simply will not collect it. Processing only comes after collection. From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg <gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> > on behalf of Dotzero <dotzero@gmail.com <mailto:dotzero@gmail.com> > Date: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 5:23 PM To: Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> > Cc: RDS PDP WG <gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org>
Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful Volcker, Registrars are not the only constituency with a stake in this. Michael Hammer On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 11:13 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> > wrote: Hi Mike, no, sensible because a great number of registrars will be forced to deal with this anyway, because this will affect a great many of registrations and therefore it makes sense to take this as a basis. Of course we will then need to see if there need to be tweaks to accomodate for other jurisdictions, but as more as more countries are adopting similar regimes.... Sure it will be more restrictive than open access and some people may have a harder time than today getting at certain information, but with tiered access access would still be possible for those with overriding legitimate interests. That is the model the EU commission hinted at. Not the only model, but a working one. Volker Am 13.02.2018 um 17:04 schrieb Dotzero: Volker, you assert that "it would be sensible to take GDPR as a basis and start from there". Perhaps sensible from your perspective and easier from your perspective but ICANN is an international organization - primarily dealing with technical/administrative issues - and it MUST take an approach that, as best it can, accommodates the laws and practices of various jurisdictions around the world. Your proposed approach, quite simply does not do that. Michael Hammer On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:54 AM, Volker Greimann <vgreimann@key-systems.net <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> > wrote: I think that it would be sensible to take the GDPR as a basis and start from there. Obviously, where it conflicts with other applicable laws, we should make sure to accomodate those as well, but as the EU Commission and others have pointed out is that compliance with GDPR does not preclude providing certain access levels to certain parties. What those levels would be and who those parties could be should be the main focus of our work. Am 13.02.2018 um 15:41 schrieb Chuck: Volker, Are you saying that you think that RDS policies should be designed to comply with European regulations and then applied to all other jurisdictions in the world? Chuck From: Volker Greimann [mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net] Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2018 5:58 AM To: Chuck <mailto:consult@cgomes.com> <consult@cgomes.com>; 'Michael Palage' <mailto:michael@palage.com> <michael@palage.com> Cc: gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful I am afraid that if we create different policies for different regions, we will break the model, encourage forum shopping and encourage firewalling of entire geographic sections of the net. I hope that is not what we are doing here. GDPR will cause some breakage of this and I see it as our mission to fix this breakage of the standard by proposing a unified model once again. Ultimately, if this solution does what the EU has been asking for, e.g. protect legitimate use cases of registration data as well as the rights of the data subjects, there is no reason why it should not be universally applicable. Best, Volker Am 13.02.2018 um 00:04 schrieb Chuck: Volker, The WG could recommend policies that are universally applicable to all registrations but I seriously doubt that will happen in todays world. That would be much simpler than policies that vary by region and users, but is it realistic? Chuck From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 2:30 PM To: Michael Palage <mailto:michael@palage.com> <michael@palage.com> Cc: gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful Michael is right. ICANN iOS based on the thought of One World; one Internet. This also means that the policies it creates should be universally applicable to all registrations, if possible. IF we start creating policy that diverges, that would only lead to further fragmentation and undermine the founding ideal of ICANN itself. Our aim should be to create one policy that can be applied to all or most registrations and that can be implemented by all registrars alike. While we will likely have a certain amount of fragmentation following May 25 as each contracted party applies its own solution, it should be our goal to overcome this and present a new unified policy that works for all contracted parties. Volker On 12. Feb 2018, at 20:27, Michael Palage <michael@palage.com <mailto:michael@palage.com> > wrote: Greg/John, I will respectfully push back on your legal over simplification of the GDPR. The exterritorial aspect of the GDPR set forth in Article 3 is NOT just limited to EU residents/citizens. As Michele has noted in the past, the GDPR requires BlackKnight as an Irish legal entity to protect all of its customers data (EU/Non-EU) in compliance with GDPR, as well as US entities that target and conduct business within the EU. Now your points about the distinction between natural and legal persons is a fair one and one that has been noted in EU and Art 29 communications. Could you please share the basis of your proposition that 97% of all domain name registrations are registered by legal entities. As I have note previously the long term viability of the ICANN multi-stakeholder model is at risk as national governments continue to pass national laws that impact the operation of the Internet. However, the European Union is NOT alone in advancing Privacy Legislation, in fact data localization is perhaps the next biggest lurking threat to the domain name system. Best regards, Michael From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg [mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of John Horton via gnso-rds-pdp-wg Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 1:22 PM To: Greg Aaron <gca@icginc.com <mailto:gca@icginc.com> > Cc: gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful I think Greg is right on. There's simply no justification to force a law that is only intended to apply to a) EU residents/citizens that are b) natural persons not using the domain name for commercial purposes, to the remaining...what? 97% - 99% of the world's registrant population? That would be a balanced way to implement all of this. John Horton President and CEO, LegitScript <https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJRXE5UTAtclVxdTg& revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJSG9zOUVwN1lFKzFrRVlnaWU0NGZ4RmdkUjg4PQ> Follow LegitScript: <http://www.linkedin.com/company/legitscript-com> LinkedIn | <https://www.facebook.com/LegitScript> Facebook | <https://twitter.com/legitscript> Twitter | <http://blog.legitscript.com/> Blog | <http://go.legitscript.com/Subscription-Management.html> Newsletter <https://www.legitscript.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/LegitScript-Workplac e.png> <https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B13GfLt8zwZJTmNWbmcwOTVJMXc& revid=0B13GfLt8zwZJQlZWOXVGbG9acC9nRGhzdEkxclFJVytCWVNjPQ> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Greg Aaron < <mailto:gca@icginc.com> gca@icginc.com> wrote: I dont know if we arrive at the same place. GDPR is based on one principle. It states what is legal. It's explicit about what you _are allowed to do_; granted theres some flexibility and room for interpretation. Its like saying whats inside a box. U.S. law is one based on different principles. AFAIK U.S. consumer protection law does not enumerate specifically what is lawful. Instead it tends to state what is illegal, what you are _not allowed to do_. Its like saying whats outside the box. The U.S. doesnt have something like GDPR that spells out legal bases for collecting data, i.e. the enumerated allowable reasons. Instead the trade and consumer protection laws basically say: entities have the right to form contracts between themselves, they should live up to the contract, dont surprise people, dont do certain dishonest things. Here's the problem: if one makes the GDPR principle the ICANN standard and you apply it to all registrations, then practices that are allowable in one place under the law (like the U.S.) would no longer be allowed there by ICANN policy. ICANN would be choosing one legal approach or regime for everyone in the world. The alternative is to apply the GDRP only to those that it is designed to protect: registrants in the EU. For example, theres nothing in U.S. law that prohibits a U.S. registrar from having a contract that says publication of full contact data in WHOIS is a condition of registering a domain name if you are a registrant in the U.S. See <https://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/> https://iapp.org/news/a/explaining-the-gdpr-to-an-american/ for more. From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg [ <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Silver, Bradley via gnso-rds-pdp-wg Sent: Friday, February 9, 2018 2:54 PM To: Volker Greimann < <mailto:vgreimann@key-systems.net> vgreimann@key-systems.net>; <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful It is true that the GDPR is prescriptive, although also rather open-ended (hence our current pickle). But regardless of the term we use, dont we arrive at the same place: which is that if something that requires a legal basis is done without one, it will be unlawful? Using Kathys example, if data is processed without complying with minimization or purpose principles, will such processing not run afoul of the law, and hence be unlawful? There are important distinctions between the meaning of legal basis which implies that a law requires something to be affirmatively present, versus lawful, which means that something is not prohibited by law. Ultimately though, isnt lawfulness, the same end point, regardless? From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg [ <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Volker Greimann Sent: Friday, February 09, 2018 11:27 AM To: <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful I do not see how. Kathy's analysis seems sound. The flexibility within the GDPR still only allows processing in very specific cicumstances, all of which are listed in the GDPR. Am 09.02.2018 um 16:45 schrieb Victoria Sheckler: Kathys analysis breaks down on a practical level when one looks at the GDPR and what it says about when data can be processed. The GDPR allows for flexibility for what can be processed and when, and kathys analysis overlooks that point. From: gnso-rds-pdp-wg [ <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org> mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg-bounces@icann.org] On Behalf Of Kathy Kleiman Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 7:07 PM To: <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org Subject: Re: [gnso-rds-pdp-wg] Legal basis vs. lawful Tx for the invitation to join, Chuck, and following up on the discussion of Sam and Tapani, let me add that criteria for processing must be clearer than something broadly within ICANN's mission statement and something permissible somewhere. The requirements under law are express and concrete. Specifically, GDPR Article 5(1)(b and c) states: Personal data shall be: 2. "collected for specified, explicit and legitimate purposes and not further processed in a manner that is incompatible with those purposes" (the "purpose limitation") AND 3. "adequate, relevant and limited to what is necessary in relation to the purposes for which they are processed" (the "data minimisation" requirement). [underline added] Thus, our first criteria of "consistent with ICANN's mission," is only the first step and we need to go further than even the 3 criteria we are discussing.. Second, lawful and legal enter us into a debate over words and I have to agree with Sam and Tapani's analysis and let me add some of my own. "Legal" is the term we use for actions expressly allowed under law. How we process personal data under the GDRP falls into this category -- of processing expressly allowed under law. Whereas the term lawful is used for a much broader category of actions which are generally permissible and allowable. The term "legal" is much more consistent with our criteria statement because the processing of personal data by ICANN must clearly have a valid legal basis as expressly defined by data protection laws. Best regards, Kathy On 2/7/2018 10:53 AM, Sam Lanfranco wrote: Thanks Tapani, I will extract from your longer message. I deliberately kept my brief and less technical. I think we are in agreement here and I support your position. On 2/7/2018 1:07 AM, Tapani Tarvainen wrote: The key distinction, as I understand it, is that "lawful" would be defined by the negative, everything that some law does not prohibit, where as "legal basis" is defined by the positive, only things whose justification can be explicitly derived from law. <......> So I would prefer "legal basis" specifically in this sense: that any processing would have to be explicitly based on one of the criteria, or bases, as listed in GDPR Article 6, or similar explicit justification in other data protection legislation. _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_l istinfo_gnso-2Drds-2Dpdp-2Dwg&d=DwMDaQ&c=tq9bLrSQ8zIr87VusnUS92RmR2KtbW6AiQI x78dtRmA&r=TAA3GKe6tpWdv3RbCks6TRrjaTx9d0J3KzemA65KYpA&m=fOG1O9n2_DhDKrVj0wr ojDKlYIsDeLHzwtDlEi-f9Ng&s=GditP_BvWvjE7xFIYot7e5akySiL4RPKaCgA_X_fyTE&e=> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mm.icann.org_mailman_l istinfo_gnso-2Drds-2Dpdp-2Dwg&d=DwMDaQ&c=tq9bLrSQ8zIr87VusnUS92RmR2KtbW6AiQI x78dtRmA&r=TAA3GKe6tpWdv3RbCks6TRrjaTx9d0J3KzemA65KYpA&m=fOG1O9n2_DhDKrVj0wr ojDKlYIsDeLHzwtDlEi-f9Ng&s=GditP_BvWvjE7xFIYot7e5akySiL4RPKaCgA_X_fyTE&e=> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg _____ Reminder: Any email that requests your login credentials or that asks you to click on a link could be a phishing attack. 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If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify the sender, and delete the original message and any copies from your computer or storage system. Thank you. _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org <https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg _______________________________________________ gnso-rds-pdp-wg mailing list gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org <mailto:gnso-rds-pdp-wg@icann.org> https://mm.icann.org/mailman/listinfo/gnso-rds-pdp-wg -- Bei weiteren Fragen stehen wir Ihnen gerne zur Verfügung. Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Volker A. 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